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The aMoL 'Memories of Light' Releases

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It's Rand, and he's being philosophical. Again...

aloud? never!

 

btw, bookmarked the new HCFF library, Terez.  Looks good!

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It's Rand, and he's being philosophical. Again...

 

Is there something wrong with this type of reflection?

 

I don't think so.  Rand is basically pointing out a flaw in how society was moving in the Age of Legends irrespective of the Bore.  He's making his case to the assembled leaders at Merrilor in support of his governmental restructuring plan, i.e., the Dragon's Peace.  It's harder to argue against a man explaining that he has many years ruling a world much more advanced and populated than the current version than a 22-year old kid telling you what he thinks the governments should do after he's dead.  In other words, stop idolizing the Age of Legends, ruminating over what is lost forever, and try to make something even better, which Rand explains should be possible.

 

Being philosophical in front of a sophisticated audience who you want to persuade to act in a certain way after you're dead and gone is perfectly reasonable.  It's basically a United Nations speech

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As teasers go memory #24 is so boring I think Tor should give us an extra one in honor of Brandon Sanderson's birthday.

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It's Rand, and he's being philosophical. Again...

 

Is there something wrong with this type of reflection?

 

What's wrong with it is that this type of reflection is the author telling us important information about the AoL, and using Rand to just announce it almost randomly.  It isn't woven into the story in any meaningful way, it is just Rand randomly reflecting without rhyme or reason.  Of course, I could be entirely wrong given that we only have this one quote to go off of but it fits with what we have seen so far of Rand randomly making philosophical announcements and discussions with nobody in particular but himself.

 

In other words...it's just a bit of annoying IMO and feels out of character for Rand to be roaming around trying to talk philosophy with himself.  It is very weird to me personally.  But then again, maybe this quote is taken from a discussion about the AoL and the bore and it fits perfectly.

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holy hell that is a huge leap. Evil Knievel would struggle to bridge that chasm.  

 

#24 is probably my favorite yet. I expect the ending to have quite a bit of this kind of discussion.

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I kind of like it. I would hazard a guess that he is either a) talking to the assembly of leaders or b) speaking to one of the chosen right before the end. Or it could be one of the chosen speaking to Rand.

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My gut tells me that #24 is spoken aloud by someone other than Rand. That excerpt seems apologetic in nature, though I can also see merit in the argument that it is Rand. Also, this quote definitely strikes me as pure Brandon. To be honest, I feel like this type of introspection has been hit or miss throughout TGS and ToM although I did like Aviendha's trip through the Glass Pillars in this regard. For me, this particular moment of introspection seems hollow though a fuller treatment might alleviate that concern.

 

Purely in terms of the statement's own logic, however, I think this excerpt misses the mark. The inevitable end of paradise is particularly theological in tone though ultimately conjecture given the alternative history posed. Without deeper explanation of the societal ills of the Age, how can Rand/Moridin/whoever know his statement is true? Furthermore, what does the speaker mean when he/she says "we believed we were living in paradise[?]" Isn't one of the themes of the AoL the loss of memory (especially major societal ills, etc). Wouldn't the people of such an Age see any ill as a problem to be conquered given time/technological development/etc? In other words, why would they choose to simply ignore it?

Edited by ArveduiEreinion

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As teasers go memory #24 is so boring I think Tor should give us an extra one in honor of Brandon Sanderson's birthday.

 

Au contraire, memory #24 was the first one that told us anything we didn't know and now know almost for certain - whoever is doing the musing, we can assume he has lived then and there.

 

So far in the books the AoL was always described as the pinnacle of civilization, a paradise on earth. It was the mankind's thirst for progress and knowledge, for "equality" between the genders, that led to accidental drilling of the Bore and Heaven's fall.

 

Now we're suddenly being told that there were imperfections in this paradise and moreover, they were ignored. Mankind had, in fact, failed to created an actual paradise, rather they had created one in their minds and were determined to prolong it as much as possible.

 

If this musing turns out to be an accurate description of the AoL it will make me reconsider everything I thought I knew of that age. 

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As teasers go memory #24 is so boring I think Tor should give us an extra one in honor of Brandon Sanderson's birthday.

 

Au contraire, memory #24 was the first one that told us anything we didn't know and now know almost for certain - whoever is doing the musing, we can assume he has lived then and there.

 

So far in the books the AoL was always described as the pinnacle of civilization, a paradise on earth. It was the mankind's thirst for progress and knowledge, for "equality" between the genders, that led to accidental drilling of the Bore and Heaven's fall.

 

Now we're suddenly being told that there were imperfections in this paradise and moreover, they were ignored. Mankind had, in fact, failed to created an actual paradise, rather they had created one in their minds and were determined to prolong it as much as possible.

 

If this musing turns out to be an accurate description of the AoL it will make me reconsider everything I thought I knew of that age. 

 

Doesn't that strike you as an odd, fourth quarter, changeup (especially given all the other AoL tidbits we've received thus far)?

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My gut tells me that #24 is spoken aloud by someone other than Rand. That excerpt seems apologetic in nature, though I can also see merit in the argument that it is Rand. Also, this quote definitely strikes me as pure Brandon. To be honest, I feel like this type of introspection has been hit or miss throughout TGS and ToM although I did like Aviendha's trip through the Glass Pillars in this regard. For me, this particular moment of introspection seems hollow though a fuller treatment might alleviate that concern.

 

Purely in terms of the statement's own logic, however, I think this excerpt misses the mark. The inevitable end of paradise is particularly theological in tone though ultimately conjecture given the alternative history posed. Without deeper explanation of the societal ills of the Age, how can Rand/Moridin/whoever know his statement is true? Furthermore, what does the speaker mean when he/she says "we believed we were living in paradise[?]" Isn't one of the themes of the AoL the loss of memory (especially major societal ills, etc). Wouldn't the people of such an Age see any ill as a problem to be conquered given time/technological development/etc? In other words, why would they choose to simply ignore it?

 

Well, as of Chapter 1 we have a good idea of just how fully integrated LTT is with Rand. If anyone would know the systemic problems of the culture of the AoL it would probably be LTT.

 

While Brandon's writing style contributes to it, I think some are too quick to act as though portions like this are just completely Brandon going rogue on the storyline. When you consider that this is the first time we have seen a PoV from an actual person from the AoL that isn't either a Forsaken, the few tunnel visioned peaks from the Aiel history, or stark raving mad I think it's premature to act as though the author doesn't know what he's talking about. What makes you think you know the AoL better then a guy who loved through it(in-universe) or the author who has read RJ's notes and wrote a million words of the story?

 

As for how they would tackle problems in the AoL, we have numerous clues from the Forsaken that the AoL saw the same old story of an advanced society thinking it's sophistication by itself was enough to control the negative aspects of humanity. For those who have watched Star Trek First Contact, or the later seasons of Star Trek Deep Space 9 concerning the Dominon War, you'll know what I mean. To put it simply, polite societies often suffer from the conceit that just because we eat with forks and napkins we are not just as much a product of evolution from hominid ancestors, and short of eugenics we will likely never banish the darker sides of our nature from our genetic make up.

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My gut tells me that #24 is spoken aloud by someone other than Rand. That excerpt seems apologetic in nature, though I can also see merit in the argument that it is Rand. Also, this quote definitely strikes me as pure Brandon. To be honest, I feel like this type of introspection has been hit or miss throughout TGS and ToM although I did like Aviendha's trip through the Glass Pillars in this regard. For me, this particular moment of introspection seems hollow though a fuller treatment might alleviate that concern.

 

Purely in terms of the statement's own logic, however, I think this excerpt misses the mark. The inevitable end of paradise is particularly theological in tone though ultimately conjecture given the alternative history posed. Without deeper explanation of the societal ills of the Age, how can Rand/Moridin/whoever know his statement is true? Furthermore, what does the speaker mean when he/she says "we believed we were living in paradise[?]" Isn't one of the themes of the AoL the loss of memory (especially major societal ills, etc). Wouldn't the people of such an Age see any ill as a problem to be conquered given time/technological development/etc? In other words, why would they choose to simply ignore it?

 

Well, as of Chapter 1 we have a good idea of just how fully integrated LTT is with Rand. If anyone would know the systemic problems of the culture of the AoL it would probably be LTT.

 

While Brandon's writing style contributes to it, I think some are too quick to act as though portions like this are just completely Brandon going rogue on the storyline. When you consider that this is the first time we have seen a PoV from an actual person from the AoL that isn't either a Forsaken, the few tunnel visioned peaks from the Aiel history, or stark raving mad I think it's premature to act as though the author doesn't know what he's talking about. What makes you think you know the AoL better then a guy who loved through it(in-universe) or the author who has read RJ's notes and wrote a million words of the story?

 

As for how they would tackle problems in the AoL, we have numerous clues from the Forsaken that the AoL saw the same old story of an advanced society thinking it's sophistication by itself was enough to control the negative aspects of humanity. For those who have watched Star Trek First Contact, or the later seasons of Star Trek Deep Space 9 concerning the Dominon War, you'll know what I mean. To put it simply, polite societies often suffer from the conceit that just because we eat with forks and napkins we are not just as much a product of evolution from hominid ancestors, and short of eugenics we will likely never banish the darker sides of our nature from our genetic make up.

 

Well, first, Lews Therin isn't speaking to us...like a real person lol. I don't mean to be facetious (ok, maybe a little) but your first point strikes me as odd. I don't know better than a fictional character but I can say that a given author's take on introspection is odd. Your latter point, however, is well-taken and I did grant that #24 may be introspection written by RJ or stemming from RJ's notes. I did say the quote "strikes me as" coming from Brandon (e.g. not definitely coming from Brandon).

 

Also, why am I suspicious? First, we have never seen the AoL described in this manner. Yes, we have seen allusions to the fact that the AoL was not heaven on earth. Semirhage, for example, tortured her patients but we don't know when that activity started (e.g. before or after the Bore). We do know that no one ignored her evil (e.g. she was given a choice between binding and stilling). Further, we have this tidbit from the Strike at Shayol Ghul: "We still cannot be certain how long passed between the creation of the Bore and the actual beginning of what would come to be called the War of the Shadow, yet plainly at least fifty years and possibly more than one hundred were marked by a rapid decline in the social order and an equally rapid increase in a thousand ills that previously had been either rare or entirely unknown." In other words, what we don't have in any other AoL reference is anything indicating an inevitable collapse in the established order.

 

Finally, I think your last point is a gross oversimplification along the lines of #24 itself. Yes, human beings are (rather) advanced primates. To our credit, however, we continue to progress despite this particular limitation. Certainly this is true of our technology but I also think its true of our moral philosophy. Where time seems to flow linearly that is especially true although I acknowledge a similar sentiment is troublesome given cosmology of the Wheel of Time. But, then again, doesn't #24's explanation seem superfluous given this same fact? That is, it wouldn't be the 3rd Age if the world order simply collapsed without the Dark One.

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almost finished my reread and just started the tgs prologue, The seanchan tuli (sp) mentions that she is fond of perrin to another seanchan or to herself (was listening to the audio book so cant confirm) could this be related to memory 17?

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@NitroS The correct spelling is Tylee. Tuli was Egwene's damane name. Tylee was the first suggestion offered. It's discussed earlier in the thread.

Edited by herid

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I've always found the study of social theory, justice, development of social ideas to be fascinating, so this quote really interests me. I do worry though that it's a bit "out there" and unrelated to a lot of Wheel of Time stuff. I think there's certainly a valid argument in the idea that societies that breed a mindset of ignoring imperfections and trying to close them out (in context, I suppose you'd say it was through the use of binders and such), might inevitably not have the proper structures for dealing with systematic problems that develop over time.
 

I'm just not sure that aMoL has the time nor reason to examine this in detail. As such, it will likely seem a little disjointed in whatever context it is placed.

Edited by Lacanos

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I think #24 the imperfections are not the obvious ones cured by technology, but more subtle - complacency, arrogance against those who would question the status quo that the AOL is the pinnacle and there is almost nothing left to achieve. The quote is not a bolt out of the blue IMO. We know from Aginor that part of the reason he turned to the Dark is he chaffed under the restrictions that society was at the apex and he should not do research (at the time not the unethical kidnap people and experiment on them sort).

 

I can see the AOL as being much like we've been told Hawkwings time was (without the wars, AS hate and obviously with technology) - great, justice for all, but woe to anyone who goes against this being the best thing since sliced bread, even if it's not for personal gain.

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I have no problem with the content itself. RJ has said as much in interviews and it is shown in the BWB, so if it is a bit blunt for the actual books, it is at least consistent with the meta info and RJ's notes/thoughts on the AoL. 

 

Nothing is strange about that statement seems off to me. However, I do understand that from a purely text-based perspective, it may seem off. However, having said that, most of what we know of the AoL in book  is from a) the Forsaken, who's opinions are highly suspect and very arrogant/biased. b) from third-agers who think the simplest things are miracles. It would  be like a caveman's opinion on 21st century life. Again, extremely unreliable. 

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Day 24:

 

"There were many good years. Good decades, good centuries. We believed we were living in paradise. Perhaps that was our downfall. We wanted our lives to be perfect, so we ignored imperfections. Problems were magnified through inattention, and war might have become inevitable if the Bore hadn't ever been made."

 

I find this quote intriguing. I have always been uneasy with the idea that the Dark One's influence is a definitive aspect of any Age on the Wheel. The Dark One is outside the Pattern, opposed to it, seeking it's destruction. The Wheel will of course respond and attempt to adapt to any of the Dark One's incursions, that's part of its design. However, I can't help but prefer the idea that the Pattern the Wheel is trying to weave doesn't require the Dark One at all, and in fact, isn't intended to include him. The Dark One may only have a window during Ages in which the manipulation of the Pattern/matter/energy/spacetime makes a breach in his "prison" possible, but is his involvement a guarantee every turning?

 

This quote implies that the world may have been heading towards a catastrophic, civilization-destroying war at the end of that Age, Dark One or no. This would be a war in which both factions would wield devastating power through channeling. Perhaps the Dark One isn't needed at all, perhaps the design of the ending of that Age is simply that it ends in such a war.

 

We don't know the origin of this quote. Is this RJ? Is this Brandon, but in response to RJ's notes? Or is it 100% Brandon's invention? Even if we ever got it confirmed that this was RJ's idea, all we can do is speculate. But this quote does open the door to a new possibility -- one I like a good deal better than the idea that the Wheel causes the Dark One's involvement. I wonder if Brandon would ever answer any questions about this. Not even questions about whether he wrote it, but whether the Wheel intends the Bore or something similar to be created, or is merely ready to respond to such events happening.

 

When I first generated this idea at work, it all came together so much more eloquently. I hope I've explained myself well.

Edited by Agitel

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I can't understand if this:

 

"There were many good years. Good decades, good centuries. We believed we were living in paradise. Perhaps that was our downfall. We wanted our lives to be perfect, so we ignored imperfections. Problems were magnified through inattention, and war might have become inevitable if the Bore hadn't ever been made."

is actually said by one of the Forsaken or some sort of history or something?

 

Like where does it come from?

 

And does this mean that if the Light side would have destroyed itself and the world if it wasn't for the Dark One and his minions? Damn... At least that's how I understand it.

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Day 24:

 

"There were many good years. Good decades, good centuries. We believed we were living in paradise. Perhaps that was our downfall. We wanted our lives to be perfect, so we ignored imperfections. Problems were magnified through inattention, and war might have become inevitable if the Bore hadn't ever been made."

 

I find this quote intriguing. I have always been uneasy with the idea that the Dark One's influence is a definitive aspect of any Age on the Wheel. The Dark One is outside the Pattern, opposed to it, seeking it's destruction. The Wheel will of course respond and attempt to adapt to any of the Dark One's incursions, that's part of its design. However, I can't help but prefer the idea that the Pattern the Wheel is trying to weave doesn't require the Dark One at all, and in fact, isn't intended to include him. The Dark One may only have a window during Ages in which the manipulation of the Pattern/matter/energy/spacetime makes a breach in his "prison" possible, but is his involvement a guarantee every turning?

 

This quote implies that the world may have been heading towards a catastrophic, civilization-destroying war at the end of that Age, Dark One or no. This would be a war in which both factions would wield devastating power through channeling. Perhaps the Dark One isn't needed at all, perhaps the design of the ending of that Age is simply that it ends in such a war.

 

We don't know the origin of this quote. Is this RJ? Is this Brandon, but in response to RJ's notes? Or is it 100% Brandon's invention? Even if we ever got it confirmed that this was RJ's idea, all we can do is speculate. But this quote does open the door to a new possibility -- one I like a good deal better than the idea that the Wheel causes the Dark One's involvement. I wonder if Brandon would ever answer any questions about this. Not even questions about whether he wrote it, but whether the Wheel intends the Bore or something similar to be created, or is merely ready to respond to such events happening.

 

When I first generated this idea at work, it all came together so much more eloquently. I hope I've explained myself well.

 

 

I do believe the DO is a necessary part. Not as a creature/entity that should be able to influence the world every time the AOL ends, but more as a (unreliable) failsafe if the AOL isn't ending the way it was originally intended. Kind of like a ta'veren who pulls threads of the pattern into a certain direction if they stray too much.

 

Sure, the AOL was far from perfect (the idea that it was has always kind of bugged me, as I do not believe perfection is possible), but even with it's flaws, it's not certain there would have been a downfall as big as the downfall we've had when the DO became free & indirectly broke the world.

 

The difference between a ta'veren and the DO is that ta'veren are still part of the pattern and the pattern essentially decides who/what/where/when the ta'veren are & do, while the DO cannot be influenced by the pattern itself once it has gained access to the world/universe.

 

The sad thing is, we don't know enough about the ages to be able to say what was, will be & what is supposed to be.

 

We know, or at least assume that the 1st age is our age, but what about the 7th age, 6th, age, 5th age and 4th age? We've seen tidbits of the 4th age, but it doesn't really give us a big picture of what it was like. Even our knowledge of the 2nd age is very limited. We don't know if the 3rd age has progressed the way it was supposed to progress or if it's a mere caricature of what the 3rd age is supposed to be.

 

Until we know, it's impossible to say if de DO is essential or not & our opinions are merely based on our own views on the world & the ages. I think it's obvious that my view of the world the story takes place in differs slightly from your (Agitel's) view of the world.

 

Does this mean I believe the DO is freed every 2nd age? No, there might not be a need every 2nd age. Heck, as far as we know he might have been given access to the world at the end of the 4th age or other ages in different cycles, or he might not have been given access at all during some cycles. 

 

I prefer to think of him as the red emergency button. You don't press it when there's no need and when a machine is doing it's routine the need to press the button may arise at different moments or during some cycles of the machine's routine, not at all, if the machine is well calibrated. Still, it's an essential part of the machinery.

 

Now imagine the red emergency button doesn't just cut power, but instead releases a 'nasty' gnome that removes whatever is messing with the machine. The gnome sadly doesn't stop there. Oh no, he tries to pull the entire machine apart. It's the employees' job to recapture the gnome & place him back into his box (or wherever it is he resides).

 

In the WOT universe, the DO is the nasty gnome, the pattern and/or wheel of time itself the machine and the people the employees. Unlike the machine, the pattern is capable of pressing the red emergency button itself. 

 

I agree with you that the impression is given that the AOL bubble would have burst eventually, but we don't know if it would have been enough of a catastrophe to cause such a decline in culture & civilization.

 

 

 

Sorry for this off topic post.

Edited by Gordar

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I don't actually agree that this tidbit is the first we've heard of things going awry in the AoL.

 

What would you call the existence of Binders? What does that imply? What about what you already know of Semirhage's and Balthamel's practices before the Bore was ever drilled? What about the separatists Rand mentioned from Far Madding?

 

We've had reason before now to question the utopic picture we were originally drawn.

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RJ always said that it was far from a perfect society; that's why they had things like binders and binding chairs. It's the way Rand frames it that is strange. It's like Rand telling Min he was raised better this time, or Rand telling Egwene that he had been driven by a fear of irrelevance.

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