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True Masters of the Blade


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Im sorry how is having abunch of people with sticks pointed in the air going to be "Pretty good defense against arrows".

 

Also same could be said with a sword give any moron with 2 hands a sword and they can kill another man. Honestly give a untrained man a spear and another a sword and I wouldnt bet on one side definately beating the other same goes for trained people too.

 

Well, see, when you've got a bunch of guys all bunched together, and they all stick their spears or halberds or pointy sticks mostly vertically in the air, the arrows have to travel through this forest of sticks before they can hit the guys holding them. Many, if not most arrows will lose kinetic energy hitting or glancing off the shafts of the sticks, losing the momentum necessary to penetrate armor or shields. Holding pikes upright like that was standard practice for pikemen facing archers.

 

Give an untrained guy a sword and a different untrained guy a spear, and the guy with the spear will win almost every time, just from the fact that the spear gives you longer reach and it's more difficult to overextend yourself while using it, and almost impossible to seriously hurt yourself trying to wield it, as opposed to the sword. Give a guy who's a trained swordsman a sword, and a guy who's got an equal level of training/experience with the spear a spear, and the guy with the spear will simply destroy the guy with the sword. It'll be even more in favor of the spear than the untrained fighters scenario, because the trained spear-fighter will be able to maximize his advantages.

 

And a spear is just a staff with a point on it. In close-quarters combat, they're used almost exactly the same; same parrying and defensive moves and same offensive moves with some extra potential effectiveness to some attacks. If a guy with a staff can beat a guy with a sword, then that guy with a spear can beat the guy with the sword faster and more effectively.

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And Master Albar, I can agree that it is indeterminable, but suttree says otherwise, that Galad must still be better. I consider that more unlikely than gawyn being better now, based on what we get to see, and what we lean about their attitudes.

 

The short of it is, a lot of people dislike Gawyn, that obviously factors into people not wanting him to be good at anything. Anyone looking at it clearly would come to the conclusion that Gaywn MIGHT be equal or better by ToM. No one would conclude Galad is still better without blinders on.

 

It is pretty amazing how much your stance on this has evolved. So now the text doesn't clearly show Gawyn to be better? You have consistently changed your take on the situation as each one has been shot down. Remember back when you were still trying to argue the BS quote made it ambiguous as to who was actually better?

 

The lucky comment is what makes it ambiguous. Since that obviously means he's referring to Gawyn's showing in specific fights. All of which were pre-bonding.

 

Only for those looking really hard for a way around his very straight forward and unambiguous answer that ranked Gawyn behind the other three.

 

As for you appeal to "anyone" or "no one" again all people need to do is look at the posts in any of the threads. So all those people supporting the Galad side have "blinders" on? Ermm ok, thanks for telling us how we read the story. Clearly it is just Gawyn hate, especially since you know what side of the Egwene argument I always fall on. Funny that you would accuse people of bias on certain characters when you have many posts of this nature...

 

Goooo team Egwene and Gawyn!

 

floating around DM. Your support wouldn't happen to be colored by fanboi glasses would it?

 

In terms of their attitudes stop "assuming" that since Galad spent a small period of time conflicted about the situation he was in, it means he stopped training entirely. He lives a very disciplined life and someone with his mindset will continue to train hard. You can do away with your "assumption" off of a few lines from Gawyn during that time Galad was conflicted, turning it into some blanket statement on how they handle their perspective training for the rest of the story. Once again the only facts we know are Galad is the better swordsman and learns things far more quickly. There is nothing anywhere to indicate that Gawyn even catches, much less surpasses Galad. It is all screen time and nothing more. Since we are unable to determine how either would have fared in their perspective situations, we have to default to what the authors and characters in text tell us. Your very admission that it is indeterminable shoots down the argument you have been making for months that the text clearly shows Gawyn to be better.

Edited by Suttree
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You guys are writing faster than I can read. So, I just skipped the last two pages in order to catch-up.

 

I notice that everybody has automatically removed Rand from consideration.

 

Granted losing a hand when you're used to a two-handed sword-fighting style kinda puts a crimp in things, but he did say he'd have to learn to adapt to the loss. Then conveniently, somebody found and presented to him, Artur Hawkwing's Justice. Basically a cavalry saber, or one-handed sword.

 

We haven't seen Rand practicing with it. We have no idea how well he has adapted to the loss of his hand. But, we DO need to remember that Rand is the Arthur archetype, and the only man who could ever beat Arthur with a sword was Lancelot.

 

Just a little more gasoline for the fire.

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Im sorry how is having abunch of people with sticks pointed in the air going to be "Pretty good defense against arrows".

 

Also same could be said with a sword give any moron with 2 hands a sword and they can kill another man. Honestly give a untrained man a spear and another a sword and I wouldnt bet on one side definately beating the other same goes for trained people too.

 

An untrained man with a sword is more likely to cut himself than cut his opponent. Between 2 untrained men..the man with the stick has a better chance of winning due to reach and the fact that he will not cut himself if he hits himself with his stick.

 

 

Perhaps you are confusing untrained with retarded.

 

2 untrained people 1 with spear and 1 with sword saying the spear wielder must win is hilarious. Ill take the opposite stance the wielder would win.

The spear wielder doesnt have to skill to kill his opponent at optimal spear range and is stuck having to defend against a non retarded person hacking away at him with a sword. Now the other guy must use the spear as a poorly balanced staff without the training to make full use of the spear at close range, he will probably start loseing fingers or have his spear hack apart by the sword user.

 

As for the other guy lifting abunch of spears to stop a rain of arrows? right im more then happy to agree to disagree.

 

A spear formation now that would work when talking about spear vs sword

 

 

Edit: How the hell do you do you hit yourself with your own sword! Or is it like Gaul its been awhile since i shot myself with my own bow.

 

Edit 2:

Well, see, when you've got a bunch of guys all bunched together, and they all stick their spears or halberds or pointy sticks mostly vertically in the air, the arrows have to travel through this forest of sticks before they can hit the guys holding them. Many, if not most arrows will lose kinetic energy hitting or glancing off the shafts of the sticks, losing the momentum necessary to penetrate armor or shields. Holding pikes upright like that was standard practice for pikemen facing archers.

hang on they have shields but they stick their spears in the air?

Edited by Benaire2
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I know the quarterstaff discussion is a few pages back now, but I do want to say that I think Mat has surpassed pretty much everyone in the series in terms of combat prowess by this point.

 

He has grown considerably in skill since he defeated Galad and Gawyn (and he was still far from healthy at the time, mind you). He has fully integrated the combat experience of his past lives, he seems to understand to a degree how to eke the most out of his luck "power", and he is now apparently a master at using his ashandarei (which is apparently a very rare weapon in current Randland).

 

I think Lan would still pose a formidable challenge for him (mostly due to the aforementioned mental factor), but he certainly is no longer subordinate to Tam or the other Two Rivers men in quarterstaff use and he has, with the possible exception of Rand and some of the Forsaken, the most direct experience with combat of anyone in the entire series.

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And Master Albar, I can agree that it is indeterminable, but suttree says otherwise, that Galad must still be better. I consider that more unlikely than gawyn being better now, based on what we get to see, and what we lean about their attitudes.

 

The short of it is, a lot of people dislike Gawyn, that obviously factors into people not wanting him to be good at anything. Anyone looking at it clearly would come to the conclusion that Gaywn MIGHT be equal or better by ToM. No one would conclude Galad is still better without blinders on.

 

It is pretty amazing how much your stance on this has evolved. So now the text doesn't clearly show Gawyn to be better? You have consistently changed your take on the situation as each one has been shot down. Remember back when you were still trying to argue the BS quote made it ambiguous as to who was actually better?

 

No, I still believe it does, but yes I have agreed in a few posts now that I could understand a position where the distinction is indistinguishable and someone refuses to make a choice. At least that person accepts that things have changed since the start of the series.

 

So I haven't changed my position, I've just recognized another legitimate one. Not yours, since yours isn't, but other people have a legit position. You can continue to demonize me for being reasonable and conciliatory, that's up to you.

 

The lucky comment is what makes it ambiguous. Since that obviously means he's referring to Gawyn's showing in specific fights. All of which were pre-bonding.

 

Only for those looking really hard for a way around his very straight forward and unambiguous answer that ranked Gawyn behind the other three.

 

But that's about author quotes, which is a totally different argument than what we've been discussing recently, which is what the text of the books suggest. And as I said, given the text in the books only, I believe it's Gawyn, but I can understand someone not wanting to take a position because it's indeterminable. Picking Galad based on the start of the series is still foolish.

 

As for you appeal to "anyone" or "no one" again all people need to do is look at the posts in any of the threads. So all those people supporting the Galad side have "blinders" on? Ermm ok, thanks for telling us how we read the story...

 

Well, obviously there are people like yourself who get it wrong, so I suppose I meant "...no one who reads it properly and can think logically...".

 

Clearly it is just Gawyn hate, especially since you know what side of the Egwene argument I always fall on. Funny that you would accuse people of bias on certain characters when you have many posts of this nature...

Goooo team Egwene and Gawyn!

 

floating around DM. Your support wouldn't happen to be colored by fanboi glasses would it?

 

In terms of their attitudes stop "assuming" that since Galad spent a small period of time conflicted about the situation he was in, it means he stopped training entirely. He lives a very disciplined life and someone with his mindset will continue to train hard. You can do away with your "assumption" off of a few lines from Gawyn during that time Galad was conflicted, turning it into some blanket statement on how they handle their perspective training for the rest of the story. Once again the only facts we know are Galad is the better swordsman and learns things far more quickly. There is nothing anywhere to indicate that Gawyn even catches, much less surpasses Galad. It is all screen time and nothing more. Since we are unable to determine how either would have fared in their perspective situations, we have to default to what the authors and characters in text tell us. Your very admission that it is indeterminable shoots down the argument you have been making for months that the text clearly shows Gawyn to be better.

 

Yes, I like Egwene quite a bit. A better quote as evidence of that can probably be found in the 'hottest character' thread. However, I tend to like Egwene since I actually read her scenes properly, those who severely dislike her tend to spin her scenes in the most ridiculous ways. Hopefully this doesn't hijack the thread...

 

I'm indifferent to Gawyn at best and slightly annoyed by his persistent Rand hate, but I picked them as a channeler/non-channeler team in the Cage Match because Egwene is awesome and precisely because Gawyn is a better swordsman! if anything, it's my stance in this thread that biased that quote. As for Galad, I don't particularly like or dislike him any more or less than Gawyn. If anything, I prefer Galad's cool deontologicalism, which is far more interesting than a whiny, needy man-boy. But either way, I feel the book text still suggests Gawyn is better, but I accept and understand the position that it's indeterminable because of the arguments that there's no definitive proof, and much if it is based on screen time. But your wild assumption that because it's indeterminable therefore Galad must still be better is mind-boggling.

 

You still take what was true (though likely exaggerated) in book 3 and apply it, unreservedly, 10 books later. <sarcasm>I guess it's not like Rand grows much over that time right? or Egwene, Nynaeve... I mean everyone is pretty much static across the whole series, why would Gawyn and Galad make any progress if no one else has? </sarcasm>

 

You make a pretty good point about us both assuming things from early on are still true later, but there's a pretty clear reason why mine is different from yours. My point about Galad and Gawyn is about their motivations and mindset, which is much less likely to change than your points which are about an observation of their differences at that specific time. When your witness said Galad was better, they were talking about at that moment. When we clearly see that Galad stops bothering to show up to the yard, that says something about the guy. At almost the same time we see that Gawyn is not ONLY motivated to train, but is driven specifically by how much better Gawyn perceives Galad is and how much faster he perceives Galad learns. So it's easy to believe he works that much harder to compensate, no such motivations are apparent from Galad... just the opposite. So no, my logic doesn't defeat my own argument.

Edited by Kael Pyralis
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people....in the three month i came here, i've seen at least three threads discussing the sword issue.... always there are two groups:

 

1. The people who take word of god and go for the order Lan>Rand>Galad>Gawein

2. people who think word of god outdated or whatever and differ on opinion in the skill order.

 

Shall we all just agree to disagree and move on?

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people....in the three month i came here, i've seen at least three threads discussing the sword issue.... always there are two groups:

 

1. The people who take word of god and go for the order Lan>Rand>Galad>Gawein

2. people who think word of god outdated or whatever and differ on opinion in the skill order.

 

Shall we all just agree to disagree and move on?

 

Well, at the moment we're actually discussing whether the text backs up that ranking or not.

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...

 

Here is the thing, no one is "not picking a side" because the text is indeterminable. Since we have statements from characters saying Galad is better, since he fares better in objective results, since he is more naturally talented and learns far more quickly and lastly since the authors say he is better, it is on the Gaywn side to prove the text shows something different. Up to this point no one has been able to do that. When people say they are unable to determine who is better based purely on fight descriptions in the later books they are agreeing that Galad as all other evidence tells us, is better.

 

I allow for personnel growth in both fighters, what I have not even remotely seen is any proof that Gawyn has caught, let alone surpassed Galad. It would be nice if someone actually provided all this "evidence" for once.

Edited by Suttree
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Yes the two are comparable, because it's basically validation of the author's stance...If by this time we had not seen Rand do anything worthy of being considered the Dragon, then there would be debate as to whether he was...If Galad has only had one duel, which he barely won, but his brother has remained practically untouched in almost all his fights (Before y'all pounce I too am aware that he was almost killed fighting the bloodknives)...You gotta think that the one the author is representing as the better swordsman just ain't...And if he is, then someone fell short of providing adequate proof that he is.

 

Again I ask, give us proof of where Gawyn is shown to the better fighter. Galad beat Valda and single handedly destroyed the mob in Somara coming out unscathed. On top of that we have all of the characters who says he is better, we are told he learns faster and is more skilled and we have him faring better in two objective results. Now for Gawyn we have no idea how he defeated Hammar and Coulin and he came close to being killed against the Bloodknives a fight in which Brandon said he was "luckier than he thinks". You keep saying the authors show Gawyn to be better. Well prove it.

 

I just made microwave popcorn.

 

It's the best. Disregard what anyone else tells you, or any other conflicting personal accounts of authority to the contrary. It's here now and in my face, and like so fresh on my taste buds that it's so obviously the most-best.

 

 

*tongue in cheek

 

Ace.

 

Never try to teach a pig to sing. You'll only waste your time and it annoys the pig. Translation: Nothing I say would convince you anyway, so why bother? Perhaps I have I haven't provided convincing evidence to you, but it isn't as though you've made your case other than "Well everyone says so, so there!"

 

Here, try this for size...Let's say that Galad and Gawyn are tennis players (tennis, you like this, right?)...Wellll, ifff weeee werrrre to judggge bassed onnnn matchessss wonnnn, thennnn Gawynnnn hassss haaaaad moorrrre winnnnsss.

 

And to quote a person of little known fame:

 

Any contest of skill, whether it be tennis or swords will be won the majority of the time by the more skilled person(in that particular discipline) when you take things out over best of 5.

 

Had more wins? He's also had more matches. That's like saying "weve seen warrior X fight and win 3 times, we have seen warrior Y fight and win 11 times. Y has more wins, so he must be better then X". The reason he has more wins is because he's fought more fights. And that's against opponents we can't compare to each other. Galad took on one blademaster and has fought off a riot and trolloks. Gawyn has fought FAR MORE then that, as far as we have seen. This doesn't make him the better fighter, just the one with more screen time. BS says your wrong, the characters in the book say you are wrong, this means you are wrong.

 

Also, Galad was hurt against Valda and this is supposed to mean something? We don't know how Valda would compare to other Blademasters, he might have given Lan a run for his money (not saying he would win, just give a good fight). Your comparisons are meaningless because they cannot be compared. This isn't Dragonball Z, we haven't been given some "power" number. We know they are both good. We know that Galad was said to have had better natural talent. We know that the author has said Galad is better. That adds up quite well. Galad is better, though I would bet that it's not by a large degree.

Edited by Altonahk
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The simple answer to who is best is neither. It takes years of practice to become a master of anything. The G-brothers could no doubt have reached a proficient level with the sword but having them become blademasters in a year is just creative writing from Jordans side. He wants his charachters to win and so they are made blademasters. Unless they actually end up on opposing sides which is unlikely it doesn't matter who is best. In case they do end up fighting it will be the guy who need to win storywise who is best.

 

Rands skill can be explained with him remembering swordfighting just as he remembers channeling but it's still a stretch having him beat a blademaster as early as he did. Mat had years of practice with the staff and his dad was the two river champion so he had a good instructor. Add to this his new memories and i can accept his skill in battle.

 

Finally, about spears and arrows. The phalanx formations of ancient macedon as well as medieval pike and halbierd formations offered a decent protection against hails of arrow. The sheer number of spears made a large portion of the arrows hit or touch the weapons before they could strike the men. Archers fired in volleys that dropped down on the enemies at about 45 degrees angle, only at short range did they start to aim for individuals and shoot more horisontal.

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  • 4 months later...

Gotta say, this was a great read. Thanks for Sultree for pointing me in the right direction. Just wanted to toss in, doesn't Gawyn think about killing Hammar in one of the books. I'm pretty sure it's implied he did it solo, because it "Had to be done with honor" or some crap.

 

I too feel that a lot of the Gawyn thinks Galad could be simple little brother syndrome. He's living in a shadow.

 

While I'll admit the Word of God wins the debate, I too agree that makes no sense. I guess That's all I can add. We'll never know huh. Sucks too.

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You forget That Rand is a Ta'veren , he was a better swordsman in many way that gawyn and Galad but even if by some miracle the get the better of him , the pattern will not allow him to be beaten by them .

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A few thoughts after reading 90% of the thread ....

 

Personally, I think that the Sleete + Warder vs. Gawyn scene only served as a warm-up to justify Gawyn's fight against the Bloodknives. We get a hint that Gawyn can handle multiple opponent; And so we're not shocked that he handles three assassins using ter'angreal to enhance their skills.

 

Secondly and from a purely "sword skill" PoV; Gawyn defeated the three bloodknives and was mortally wounded. It is closer to a tie than to a victory (e.g. Lan vs. Toram). He would have died if not for the miracle that Egwene woke up in time and screamed loud enough for Aes Sedai to come and heal him.

 

Also, the bloodknives fight took place nearly a month after the Seanchan raid on the WT. And that is near the max time that a bloodknife lives after activating the ter'angreal. And since the ter'angreal drains life out of the bloodknife, they were much weaker than at the start of the Seanchan raid. The one Bryne killed was more difficult and deadlier than the weakened three. And it took Bryne's skill and warder-enhanced senses to react to that one.

 

Finally, comparing Gawyn's leadership skills with Galad's is misleading. It is like comparing a Lieutenant with a General. Both have leadership skills! But leading 20,000 troops is on a different scale from leading 500.

Edited by Theodril
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A few thoughts after reading 90% of the thread ....

 

Personally, I think that the Sleete + Warder vs. Gawyn scene only served as a warm-up to justify Gawyn's fight against the Bloodknives. We get a hint that Gawyn can handle multiple opponent; And so we're not shocked that he handles three assassins using ter'angreal to enhance their skills.

 

Secondly and from a purely "sword skill" PoV; Gawyn defeated the three bloodknives and was mortally wounded. It is closer to a tie than to a victory (e.g. Lan vs. Toram). He would have died if not for the miracle that Egwene woke up in time and screamed loud enough for Aes Sedai to come and heal him.

 

Also, the bloodknives fight took place nearly a month after the Seanchan raid on the WT. And that is near the max time that a bloodknife lives after activating the ter'angreal. And since the ter'angreal drains life out of the bloodknife, they were much weaker than at the start of the Seanchan raid. The one Bryne killed was more difficult and deadlier than the weakened three. And it took Bryne's skill and warder-enhanced senses to react to that one.

 

Finally, comparing Gawyn's leadership skills with Galad's is misleading. It is like comparing a Lieutenant with a General. Both have leadership skills! But leading 20,000 troops is on a different scale from leading 500.

 

I'd argue with that last part. At a certain point it's all about managing your Sub-Officers well. Gawyn reached that point, as did Galad, so I think they could be compared in that aspect.

 

Interesting point about the bloodknives time period. Never thought about that.

 

But remember Gawyn was only mortally wounded because he had to protect Eggy. If he didn't, the battle would have been different. The Bloodknives had a huge advantage with that aspect.

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The point here is not to determine who is the best swordsman but to determine who is Jearom reborn. It is stated that Jearom is the best there ever was and he wasn't mention in TGH so he must be reborn. Now , considering what happen in TDR Gawyn and Galad being beaten by Mat A simple farmer at this time just like the story of Jearom which we hear of just as the fight finishes tends to prove that one of them is Jearom. If you analyse this fight you will see that gawyn gets utterly defeated by a blow to the head and that galad resist a bit longer but still gets beaten. I think it's gawyn because he doesn't get beaten after that while galad his down and on the point of dying when perrin rescues him.there are also other evidence throught the series thjat indicates that gawyn adulates galad and thus doesn't want to be better than him while galad do everything rightfully.both of them could be him but my guess is for Gawyn.

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It is stated that Jearom is the best there ever was and he wasn't mention in TGH so he must be reborn.

 

Quite a few assumptions in this statement. No where has it ever been stated that Jearom is a Hero of the Horn. Now, even if he were a Hero, there were more than a hundred Heroes that participated in the Battle of Falme, and the vast majority were not named.

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The point here is not to determine who is the best swordsman but to determine who is Jearom reborn. It is stated that Jearom is the best there ever was and he wasn't mention in TGH so he must be reborn. Now , considering what happen in TDR Gawyn and Galad being beaten by Mat A simple farmer at this time just like the story of Jearom which we hear of just as the fight finishes tends to prove that one of them is Jearom. If you analyse this fight you will see that gawyn gets utterly defeated by a blow to the head and that galad resist a bit longer but still gets beaten. I think it's gawyn because he doesn't get beaten after that while galad his down and on the point of dying when perrin rescues him.there are also other evidence throught the series thjat indicates that gawyn adulates galad and thus doesn't want to be better than him while galad do everything rightfully.both of them could be him but my guess is for Gawyn.

 

Gawyn was near to death in Dumai Wells where Rand saved his arse from Gedwyn (or whoever the Ashaman who tried to blow him up); and where he was forced to run away from the Shaido. After that, he spent his time running away from enemies. His harrying campaign against Bryne's army was "hit and run" without battles.

 

Galad fought a battle! His army fell in an ambush; but fought bravely and long enough to allow Perrin to rescue them; and then counter attack and finish off the Shadowspawn army. That they needed rescue is nothing shameful since the odds were in favor of the the Shadowspawn army.

 

A few thoughts after reading 90% of the thread ....

 

Personally, I think that the Sleete + Warder vs. Gawyn scene only served as a warm-up to justify Gawyn's fight against the Bloodknives. We get a hint that Gawyn can handle multiple opponent; And so we're not shocked that he handles three assassins using ter'angreal to enhance their skills.

 

Secondly and from a purely "sword skill" PoV; Gawyn defeated the three bloodknives and was mortally wounded. It is closer to a tie than to a victory (e.g. Lan vs. Toram). He would have died if not for the miracle that Egwene woke up in time and screamed loud enough for Aes Sedai to come and heal him.

 

Also, the bloodknives fight took place nearly a month after the Seanchan raid on the WT. And that is near the max time that a bloodknife lives after activating the ter'angreal. And since the ter'angreal drains life out of the bloodknife, they were much weaker than at the start of the Seanchan raid. The one Bryne killed was more difficult and deadlier than the weakened three. And it took Bryne's skill and warder-enhanced senses to react to that one.

 

Finally, comparing Gawyn's leadership skills with Galad's is misleading. It is like comparing a Lieutenant with a General. Both have leadership skills! But leading 20,000 troops is on a different scale from leading 500.

 

1- I'd argue with that last part. At a certain point it's all about managing your Sub-Officers well. Gawyn reached that point, as did Galad, so I think they could be compared in that aspect.

 

2- Interesting point about the bloodknives time period. Never thought about that.

 

3- But remember Gawyn was only mortally wounded because he had to protect Eggy. If he didn't, the battle would have been different. The Bloodknives had a huge advantage with that aspect.

 

1- A Lieutenant has under officers (on the level of sergeants); whereas a General's under officers are usually Colonels, Lt. Colonels, and Majors; the lowest of which is not the direct commander of a Lieutenant. So, comparing Gawyn's leadership experience with Galad remains a far-fetched comparison. If what you say is true then there is no difference between a Lieutenant and a General. Are you implying that?

 

But in the end, Gawyn abandoned leadership and responsibility, including his oaths to Elayne that he swore to uphold from childhood, and chose the path of bodyguard/warder to Egwene.

 

2- The Bloodknives probably planned to kill Egwene and a few dozen AS to go out "in style." They knew that their time is about to expire; and were under extreme pressure to fulfill their task.

 

3- In a real battle, a fighter doesn't complain and sometimes doesn't choose the terrain. Gawyn fought the battle in the place it was to be fought; and the result was closer to a draw than to a victory. And blaming Egwene for that is out of context. She was the prize the Seanchan wanted to snare; and thus the battle was in her chambers. But even so, fighting at close quarters is to Gawyn's advantage since the lack of space hinders the assassins more than it hinders Gawyn.

Edited by Theodril
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3- In a real battle, a fighter doesn't complain and sometimes doesn't choose the terrain. Gawyn fought the battle in the place it was to be fought; and the result was closer to a draw than to a victory. And blaming Egwene for that is out of context. She was the prize the Seanchan wanted to snare; and thus the battle was in her chambers. But even so, fighting at close quarters is to Gawyn's advantage since the lack of space hinders the assassins more than it hinders Gawyn.

how did you come up with that one?

 

1) gawyn is using a 2 handed sword, the bloodknives where using daggers in a lack of space bloodknives have advantage

2) close range there may not be room for the forms he has been trained

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Um, pretty sure the Bloodknives were using swords when they were going after Eggy. They decapitated a guard with a single swipe, iirc, and it's a loong dagger that can do that. And the Bloodknives were so enhanced, the lack of space didn't appear to be hindering them at all. Gawyn recognized the three of them using what looked like group attack forms, and started swinging where he thought they should be if he was right instead of at what he could see. He got lucky and took out two of them more or less by surprise through getting lucky. Prior to that, he was barely able to protect himself, employing desperate forms that didn't allow much chance for a counter-attack. With the last one, he knew he wouldn't be able to beat him by anticipating the forms, by the time he recognized them, it'd be too late. And he couldn't use his eyes because the Bloodknives ter'angreal messed with their images. So he made it all dark and took another lucky shot in the dark, and lo and behold, he got lucky. Kinda, he also got a sword in the gut, but he did kill his opponent and live to fight another day.

 

Gawyn is good, else he wouldn't have survived at all, no question. But in the battle of the Bloodknives, he got lucky, and that's why he won.

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3- In a real battle, a fighter doesn't complain and sometimes doesn't choose the terrain. Gawyn fought the battle in the place it was to be fought; and the result was closer to a draw than to a victory. And blaming Egwene for that is out of context. She was the prize the Seanchan wanted to snare; and thus the battle was in her chambers. But even so, fighting at close quarters is to Gawyn's advantage since the lack of space hinders the assassins more than it hinders Gawyn.

how did you come up with that one?

 

1) gawyn is using a 2 handed sword, the bloodknives where using daggers in a lack of space bloodknives have advantage

2) close range there may not be room for the forms he has been trained

 

They were fighting in a monarch's bedchamber, not Egwene's solitary confinement cell. And Gawyn used that setting to protect his back. He had his back covered so they couldn't come at him from all directions. That minor advantage, added to the immense luck in Thrasymachus' post, allowed him to only suffer a mortal wound, and not get killed right away.

 

Um, pretty sure the Bloodknives were using swords when they were going after Eggy. They decapitated a guard with a single swipe, iirc, and it's a loong dagger that can do that. And the Bloodknives were so enhanced, the lack of space didn't appear to be hindering them at all. Gawyn recognized the three of them using what looked like group attack forms, and started swinging where he thought they should be if he was right instead of at what he could see. He got lucky and took out two of them more or less by surprise through getting lucky. Prior to that, he was barely able to protect himself, employing desperate forms that didn't allow much chance for a counter-attack. With the last one, he knew he wouldn't be able to beat him by anticipating the forms, by the time he recognized them, it'd be too late. And he couldn't use his eyes because the Bloodknives ter'angreal messed with their images. So he made it all dark and took another lucky shot in the dark, and lo and behold, he got lucky. Kinda, he also got a sword in the gut, but he did kill his opponent and live to fight another day.

 

Gawyn is good, else he wouldn't have survived at all, no question. But in the battle of the Bloodknives, he got lucky, and that's why he won.

 

+1

 

Gawyn was lucky; and so was Egwene :min: . The bloodknives were at the end of their line. They were probably all going to die after the night's business. They were under extreme pressure and probably extremely drained. With them being the elite of the elite assassins :seanchan: in WoT, they could have easily distracted Gawyn with one or even two; and had the third one walk around the bed and kill Egwene. But the pattern wouldn't allow it :smile:

Edited by Theodril
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We don't know that being at "the end of their line" weakens the Bloodknives, and it's not necessary to assume that they were. If they were, it just means Gawyn was even more lucky in that he didn't have to face them when they were at their peak. But as it stands, he was lucky enough, so there's no real need to pile on the poor guy. Gawyn is good. There's probably not really a hair's worth of difference between him and Galad worth quibbling over. Who knows if Galad had faced the Bloodknives, if he'd have survived without taking a mortal wound, or if he'd have been killed in the first exchange? When dealing with trained assassins vs a trained defender, luck matters much more than skill. Gawyn was as lucky facing these three as Lan was in New Spring when he took on 7 guys and sustained only minor injuries. Multiple sparring matches are the only objective way to determine relative skills, single combat when life and death are on the line is far too dominated by chance and luck to be good determinants.

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ToM: Gawyn talking to Kaisea (captured Sul'dam) about Bloodknives:

 

 

"They are poisoned by their service. Once they are given a charge, they often will not last more than a few weeks. At most, they survive a month."

.

.

.

"If Kaisea may suggest, great Lord? Count yourself fortunate to have survived fighting a Bloodknife. You must not have been his or her true target. It would be prudent to hide yourself until a month has passed."

 

 

 

The month expiry is verified; but I cannot claim the same certainty that they are weakened as their time approaches. That is only deduction. Still, the Bloodknives were under pressure to fulfill the "will of the Empress" and kill "dozens." And their prize was Egwene. Gawyn's defense in the bedchamber saved the lives of dozens of Aes Sedai as well as Egwene's.

 

I am not trying to pile it on Gawyn, because I think that this fight is his moment of redemption. But it is always nice to take all factors into consideration when assessing a scene.

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Ugh, Gawyn is so arrogant.

 

I find it very weird that it seems that almost all of the Great Captains are also blademasters. I would've thought that excellence with a sword and tactical genius would not necessarily be correlated. Leadership may be to an extent, but leading by example only gets you so far.

 

 

If you look at modern day elite units, ones that use meritocracy to promote soldiers, the leaders tend to be not only the most tactically sound, but also damn near Olympic athletes. The one in charge doesn't have the be the 'best', but a weakling (in mind, soul, or body) will never be respected by those he leads.

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