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A WHEEL OF TIME COMMUNITY

Thrasymachus

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  1. No, New Spring doesn't have spoilers for anything that happens after where you are in the books. Fwiw, many readers find the same faults with the characters that you do, particularly around this point in the series. It is worth keeping in mind, though, that Rand is legitimately insane at this point, and all the other main characters, barring Nynaeve, Min and Galad, are barely 20, with all the teenaged hubris that entails, confronting institutions that are themselves pretty stupid and hubristic, having suffered from a few millennia of corruption and decline. I will say this, hopefully without spoiler, that the problems that stem from a lack of communication "cross-group," will get worse from here, before they get better. This is, I think, another one of those examples of how this series really shines only on multiple read-throughs. The first time through them, as you're reading, there's so many things that don't make sense, and won't, until the whole story is done and there's time to ruminate on how all the little bits and pieces fit together. Things that can be kept in mind and appreciated really only only the second or subsequent read-throughs. It's only when we're done anticipating the culmination of the story, of wanting them to just get on with it, that we can go back and appreciate how these annoyances can be realistic and immersive representation of how problems can be born of a failure to communicate, that is itself born from pride, uncertainty, paranoia, fear, and so forth, some of which may be well-justified. In other words, these are some very painstaking set-ups, and right now, you're in the pain part. The real tragedy is that Jordan didn't get to write the pay-offs for much of that pain.
  2. As are you. This is a series that, despite its length, can really only truly be appreciated on multiple read-throughs. So much foreshadowing, things that are hard to appreciate on a first read-through that are easier the second or third (or dozenth) time through, elements of real-world myth and ancient religion and legends woven in that you'll want to look up, and then read it again just to see how deep those connections go.
  3. Subtlety and symbolism are just not the strong suit of today's TV showrunners, I guess, nor of audiences I suppose.
  4. Cutting Caemlyn makes little sense, as Basel Gill's tavern could have been a redressed tavern set they're going to need a lot of anyway, and the Caemlyn palace and palace grounds are important settings for future events anyway, so they should have just gotten that very expensive set designed and built and out of the way for season one. Cutting it is only a good idea for not having to cast and keep under contract the Trakands, who would otherwise have a brief scene and then not show up again until season 2. But replacing it with Tar Valon, having the Emond's Field 5, and particularly Rand, go there on the way to the Eye, just blatantly undermines and ignores important symbolism RJ drew upon and built into his story and world. But this show doesn't seem to care that much about that kind of symbolism. I would not be surprised to see them change Tar Valon so that it no longer resembles female genitalia, or put Dragonmount so close it actually overshadows the city and the Tower.
  5. Mah'alleinir was also a stylized blacksmith's hammer, modified, of course, to be a more effective warhammer, as well "the hammer of a king," whatever that means. I suspect that it would likewise have been immune to that bubble of evil. The choice of the hammer over the axe is significant for Perrin, because the hammer represents the possibility to create/forge/build, as well as destroy, where the axe can only destroy. I'd have to imagine that distinction would carry over to Perrin's "leveled-up" hammer as much as his original one. But it would depend on how Perrin views it, is Mah'alleinir just his weapon, or is it also his tool?
  6. It'll probably be a teaser-trailer, on the order of ~1 minute long. He'll probably also reveal a more precise release timeframe, as in, "late November 2021." Though I would be moderately surprised if they committed to a specific day, it's within the realm of plausibility. If I had to bet, I'd say the full-length promotional trailer will come out at Dragoncon, in the latter half of the second week of September, which corresponds somewhat to the new edition release of the books tied to the show. As to content, I'd say we might get to see what Loial looks like, what Fades and Trollocs looks like, and maybe less than 1 second of actual channelling/weaving.
  7. His hammer didn't attack him because it wasn't a weapon. It was a blacksmith's tool that he taken to using as a weapon, but it was still ultimately a thing of creation, not destruction. Every other weapon made of metal attacked people, but things that were not weapons didn't, even if they would have been pretty effective at killing people. No shears started stabbing seamstresses, or leather worker's punches started making holes in people's hides. Lengths of chain didn't wrap around people's necks and break them or drag them up into the air to hang. Belt and harness buckles and unshod horseshoes didn't start pelting people. Perrin's not immune to bubbles of evil, he just happened to not be in a great deal of danger when that particular bubble hit.
  8. @SinisterDeathAnd when, or rather if (and at this point, it's a big if) that happens, then nothing of consequence will occur. I'll have some egg on my face, and that's about all. It'll be about as momentous as Elder Haman's numerous failed predictions. Maybe I'll ask him how he deals with it. As for your character attacks, I would hope a mod would behave better. Are you gonna start comparing us to rubber and glue next? I mean, you've already pulled the, "Nuh-uh, you!" card over your unprovable assertions denigrating fans on a fan board. Either fans of the Wheel of Time are allowed to be pessimistic about the show, and present their arguments and evidence for their pessimism, or they're not. Is this thread merely an exercise to create a toxic environment for people who are already expecting this show to be a failure and are already upset at the divisiveness it's created? @king of nowhere You want to know what I consider respect? It's pretty simple, and I've laid it out multiple times before. And it's less about what you do than what you don't do. You don't elevate your taste over the source material, as they did with Tam's sword, Thom's guitar, and the Shadar Logoth dagger. You don't use superficial elements of the source material to tell your own story, unless that story is a necessary addition to make sense of the story as told in the books, as they are doing with Logain's story and in making Moiraine the "protagonist" of the first season. For the fans, you don't spark a casting controversy that you know is going to cause an uproar (because most fantasy and gaming communities host closeted communities of racist mouth breathers and anybody that is a fan of any fantasy or gaming community knows this) no matter how book-accurate your casting is, no matter how warranted and welcome it is to un-closet them and roust them out, and then spend all your next reveals showing how different your show is from everything the fan community has created over the last 20+ years in celebration of that material, let alone everything the source actually describes in great detail. You don't hint that you're going to change aspects of the story that exist for important thematic reasons, namely as the relations of these characters to our own myths and legends, so that you can explore a faddish theme of your own choosing. And as I've pointed out, Jordan's wife, even his and Brandon's assistant, hasn't said anything about the show, good or bad. Harriet likely can't, given the fallout from the Winter Dragon. At least not anything bad or anything not approved by Amazon ahead of time. Rafe has said they're being consulted, but I see no evidence of that. You'd think Maria at least would say something, even if just to confirm that she has been consulted and that that consultation mattered. As for what I consider a fan, anybody posting on these boards or any others devoted to the discussion of these books I would consider a fan. Including you. It would be a pity, almost as much as a pity as the show's lazy omission of the Warder's cloaks, if you were to make me go through your comment history to show you where you've couched or lessened your own expectations. You want an admission from me, here you go. I could be completely wrong and off-base in my assumptions and in the conclusions I draw from what's been released. Maybe, even with everything we already know or have strong reason to suspect that's been changed, and even if the optimists are right about the reasons for those changes, this show still succeeds in telling us the original story in an elevated way perfectly suited for this new format. It's possible. But what are you going to do if I'm right? Who are you going to blame when mainstream audiences fail to be hooked and there's nothing for book fans to be excited about any longer, because any and all actual fan-service has been stripped out of the show? When the story you get told is not Rand's, and to a lesser extent Perrin and Egwene's story of running for their lives from an enemy they don't understand and stumbling into their first awareness of their power, and setting up Mat's and Nynaeve's stories. A story of revealing to the audience, if not himself, Rand's role as a man of prophecy and destiny. But instead is Logain's story of his rise and fall as false dragon due to Aes Sedai manipulation, and Moiraine's story as the one lone "true" Aes Sedai on the trail of the true Dragon Reborn. And the crazy antics of her discovery of the true Dragon and his surprising entourage. Because that's what Rafe has said we're getting. And while the latter we get some of from New Spring (though who knows how true to that book they'll be), the former is a completely new invention of Rafe's own. And in nearly every communication, in every little teaser or release, he and others have repeatedly emphasized the differences between the books and the show. It's hard not to draw the conclusion that we're getting an "inspired by" show, and not a real, faithful adaptation. That Rafe will be doing the one thing Jordan would have hated: having other people tell their stories in his sandbox, and not his.
  9. No, I'm making the case for why nobody should be expecting any kind of greatness out of this, and explaining exactly why a great many of the die-hard fans like myself are being turned off of this whole process. They could have made a show that respects the story and the fans, and there wouldn't be this level of division. It's not just me. And it's not just racists being upset about biracial people being cast in main roles. So far, I haven't seen a fan who's excited for this show who hasn't had to couch their expectations, to pre-forgive transgressions against the story and the characters, or ignore the disrespect inherent in making "creative" choices that can serve no plot or adaptive function, but merely elevate the taste of the showrunners over Jordan's own. In nearly every discussion about what's been changed or what's being speculated, even the most forgiving of Rafe's cheerleaders end up saying, "yeah, that sucks if they're doing that, but...." I'm just over here pointing out that there is no "but," this just sucks. And I'm also laying the groundwork for when this turd finally drops on the ground and starts stinking up the place, you don't get to blindly scapegoat the "purists" for badmouthing the show and making it unpopular. After all, there's not enough of us to make a difference, right?
  10. Actually, considering the changes and division created within the Wheel of Time community that's already been created by this show, with the exception of running out the racists and bigots, I don't want this show to do well. I want it to be a bigger dumpster fire than I already suspect it will be. I want it to be so bad they don't even bother airing the episodes of the second season they're already filming, that they strongly consider not even finishing the airing of the first season. I want this to be right up there with Shamalamadingdong's The Last Airbender, or the live action Dragonball Z movie; so bad that people pretend that they don't even exist. I want that so that the next attempt, in five or ten years, the showrunners will know better, and come at this show demonstrating actual respect for the story and the fandom that had grown up around it already. And it actually sucks to want that, because I think these actors they've picked for Rand and Mat and Perrin and Egwene and Nynaeve and even Moiraine and Lan, deserve better than that. I think this cast could have been the faces of a really awesome retelling of a really awesome story on TV. But I have no faith in anything I've seen from the marketing team or Rafe or Brandon that it will be anything close. And if it won't be anything close to that, then better that it's a dumpster fire so we can rip that bandaid off and move on.
  11. It's real convenient to say that nothing would satisfy fans even if they did make an effort to make things remotely look like they're described, but it's also completely unprovable. There are plenty of examples of pre-existing fans approving of design choices in TV and movie adaptations, at least as many examples as their disapproving, if you actually look for them and account for the fact of human psychology that nobody makes a lot of noise over something they find acceptable. And the casting controversy was only the biggest controversy because the fandom had to deal with the racists and bigots among their ranks. Snowflake bigots had to make it the biggest controversy, to make themselves victims, as their ideology dictates they must. And we've already seen the complaints about Moiraine's business attire outfit. But you're making my point, because any actual fan of the series would know beforehand that these kinds of style choices would be controversial among the fans. So they are either consciously choosing to make the controversial and alienating choice at every opportunity, or they aren't fans enough of the books, or of the fandom itself, to recognize that they are making controversial and alienating choices.
  12. Sanderson did an acceptable job finishing the series. Some stuff was great, other stuff, like what I mentioned, was terrible. But he's not perfect, and I don't think he'd have been able to do that job at all without Maria and Harriet. The point I was making is that Sanderson's judgement is not authoritative, and wouldn't be even if his "endorsement" of Rafe wasn't couched the way it was. As for the rest, you miss the point. Sanderson largely has the respect of the "superfans" as you put it, and he still has my respect, because he respected the fandom, he listened to their criticism, and he got better. But there is zero evidence that Rafe respects the fans, or the story for that matter, considering the changes that we know of thus far. Even Sanderson only goes so far as to say that Rafe understands the "core" of the characters, and considering how badly Sanderson himself did at that, that's not saying much. I have no doubt that if Harriet had anything good to say about the show, she'd have said it, and everybody from here to the Dusty Wheel YouTube comments would be touting it. I also have no doubt that following the Winter Dragon debacle, she's not allowed to say anything publicly about it without getting it approved first. Which makes this a case where the absence of evidence is evidence of something, and that something doesn't smell good. And of course they're not gonna make it just for the book fans. But why go out of their way to alienate the book fans? If I were running the show, I'd want to synergize with the existing fans. Not divide and alienate as many of them as I could, which appears to be the direction they're going now.
  13. People are people, and streaming didn't spontaneously cause people to mutate to have goldfish memories. The biggest reason you see marketing moved up to closer to release dates is because it's easier for the data analysts to measure the effectiveness of that marketing. When you drop a trailer 11 months ahead of release the way Amazon did with the Tick, it's hard to tell how much good that trailer did for driving views. There's too many confounding factors that happen between then and the show's release. There is of course the need to hit the sweet spot for marketing, not so far out that the show becomes old news before it even airs, and not so close that it catches people by surprise, but where that sweet spot is depends entirely on the audience to which you're marketing. For die-hard fans of an IP like us, who've been waiting 20 years for some kind of mainstream media adaptation, there's no such thing as "too far out." They could have been dropping weekly, 15 minute long behind-the-scenes interviews for the last two years, showing off the actors in costume and the sets and props and talking about the script and shooting for the week, or special effects and sound when they get into post, even going so far as to drop heavy spoilery hints, and we'd all still be here for it. That they're not really coming even close to that, indeed that most of what they have already teased or shown has been to show off what they had to know would be controversial differences, is a big red flag that this show, whether it ends up being good or bad, is not intended to be a show for the pre-existing fans of the series. And no, Brandon's newest take on it is not a reassurance. For one thing, he's a terrible judge of the core of the characters, or even the core of the story. You all saw how he butchered Mat in his first book, and it took a pretty big outcry to get him to see it too, back then. And he still thinks he nailed Perrin, when what he did was a repeat of Perrin's prior character development, all to throw it away at the Last Battle where Perrin doesn't even lead the people who he had to struggle so hard to accept the leadership of, and spends half the time asleep. And he doesn't just break main characters, he broke the world-building too, making Travelling into something that RJ clearly never even considered, and likely would have balked at. And that's all fine, because none of those transgressions really ruin the story that had already been set up by RJ. But if you want to impress me with an endorsement, show me Harriet's endorsement, or Maria's. At the end of the day, I don't know whether this show will be any good or not. It could be good. What I do know is that this show will not be the Wheel of Time as I understand that story or as the expansive fandom of the last 20+ years has understood and discussed it. Thus far, I recognize nothing of the Wheel of Time in what we've been shown, except in the names and faces of the characters. In spite of all the marketing purportedly being aimed at fans, there has been no clear instance of fan-service yet. At this point, I'm half-expecting that Nynaeve will never even tug her braid in the whole of the first season.
  14. Reddit's wot sub actually has a decent system for dealing with spoilers. You tag your post with the book you're at or want to discuss, and for the most part, the users and mods are pretty good about not spoiling things past that. There are no guarantees, though, even users with the best intentions sometimes slip up. It's also worth mentioning, do NOT go googling stuff. Google is terrible about spoiling character's ultimate fates, when all you wanted was to be reminded of who that S-named Aes Sedai was, or something similar.
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