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What's your favourite scene in the entire WoT?

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The White Tower started out with good intentions, however the influence of the Dark One and the Black Ajah have infiltrated the traditions and culture of AS. The darkness within the White Tower has not only been growing, but also accelerating over time.

 

Just a few examples I can think of right now.

 

During the Trolloc Wars the Amyrlin was so jealous of the strength and beauty of the Queen of Menetheren, that she betrayed an entire nation and lead to the destruction of the 10 Nations.

 

During Hawkwing's rule the Amyrlin wanted vengeance on Hawkwing for a perceived slight dating back to when he captured a False Dragon that through her manipulations and Ishy's guidance an entire empire fell and lead to over one hundred years of war.

 

From destroying a nation to destroying an empire....and if the WT would have gotten a hold of Rand, they would have destroyed the Pattern itself.

 

I still maintain that any good it has done, has been done on accident or was unknown to the powers that be. The only reason that Moiraine and Suain are still alive is because the Black Ajah didn't know they were present for the foretelling of Rand. The Black Ajah is so pervasive throughout the White Tower (sisters in every Ajah, sisters in every council and circle, Sitters, etc) that they can turn every major and minor situation to their favor. The only time that doesn't happen is when lone AS do good upon their own. Moiraine followed this path for 20 years. Remember what Suian said to her in tGH? Moir should be brought back to the WT and given a penance. That's because the BA had no hold on her...

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The White Tower started out with good intentions, however the influence of the Dark One and the Black Ajah have infiltrated the traditions and culture of AS. The darkness within the White Tower has not only been growing, but also accelerating over time.

 

Just a few examples I can think of right now.

 

During the Trolloc Wars the Amyrlin was so jealous of the strength and beauty of the Queen of Menetheren, that she betrayed an entire nation and lead to the destruction of the 10 Nations.

 

During Hawkwing's rule the Amyrlin wanted vengeance on Hawkwing for a perceived slight dating back to when he captured a False Dragon that through her manipulations and Ishy's guidance an entire empire fell and lead to over one hundred years of war.

 

From destroying a nation to destroying an empire....and if the WT would have gotten a hold of Rand, they would have destroyed the Pattern itself.

 

I still maintain that any good it has done, has been done on accident or was unknown to the powers that be. The only reason that Moiraine and Suain are still alive is because the Black Ajah didn't know they were present for the foretelling of Rand. The Black Ajah is so pervasive throughout the White Tower (sisters in every Ajah, sisters in every council and circle, Sitters, etc) that they can turn every major and minor situation to their favor. The only time that doesn't happen is when lone AS do good upon their own. Moiraine followed this path for 20 years. Remember what Suian said to her in tGH? Moir should be brought back to the WT and given a penance. That's because the BA had no hold on her...

 

Do you mean the BA was so pervasive? You realize they have been ousted by Verin & Eggy correct? The WT had a forsaken in house, was BA riddled and was under Fain's influence but that has all changed. She has done more in her short time to change things than any Amrylin for the last 3,000 years.

 

Your assertion that their good is unknown to the powers that be is patently false. Again they saved the world in the Trolloc Wars when Rashima Kerenmosa became a legend as an Amrylin. Gitara was working with the full knowledge of Tamra when they did their good guiding events so Rand was born. Moir was working with Siuan's knowledge. Collectively 1/3 of the WT is out in the world working for good every single day(guarding blight, healing, averting wars, saving knowledge etc.). Also once again you can not hold the WT responsible for DFs and Forsaken. It is not correct that they turn every single situation to their advantage either. It is simply not the reality of the story.

 

To your point about Manetheren when it was found that Tetsuan had averted aid she was stilled and deposed.The WT as a whole was appalled and punished her severly. In relation to Hawkwing he did indeed but heads with the Armrylin but AS still held many governorships and positions of power in his Empire. It wasn't until Ishy meddled that things reached a critical point and he ruined the empire by putting a bounty on AS sending Hawkwings armies in different directions. Ishy made it so bad that he refused healing on his death bed! You make it sound as if Ishy and the Amrylin were working together.

 

I do find it somewhat ironic that you hold the actions of individual AS as reasons for the entire WT being corrupt and then turn around and say that the actions of individuals for good don't count. You have to take the good with the bad which is what I have said all along.

Edited by Suttree

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Not was, is.

 

So what if the BA after 3,000 years was finally ousted. How many of the traditions of the WT both spoken and unspoken were gradually introduced to advance the BA or to hinder the WT's fight for what is good?

 

Going back to the original point, is the way accepted are tested benefiting the forces of Light or the DO? Furthermore the test for the shawl, as we say in Nyn's case, is an opportune time for BA or vindictive AS to do their utmost to see a potential girl fail...or even die.

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Not was, is.

 

So what if the BA after 3,000 years was finally ousted. How many of the traditions of the WT both spoken and unspoken were gradually introduced to advance the BA or to hinder the WT's fight for what is good?

 

Going back to the original point, is the way accepted are tested benefiting the forces of Light or the DO? Furthermore the test for the shawl, as we say in Nyn's case, is an opportune time for BA or vindictive AS to do their utmost to see a potential girl fail...or even die.

 

Are you really asking so what if the BA was finally ousted? Does that need to be explained? BTW as a clarification the BA has only existed since the Trolloc Wars not for 3,000 years. They have undoubtedly had an impact but they were a cancer that has been cut out. That along with Eggy's reforms, the reintegration of male channelers, and the treaty putting the other cultures channelers on equal ground will lead to the "Great Arvalon" we see glimpses of in quotes from the next age.

 

The testing is deeply flawed I'll grant you but to say it benefits the DO is another stretch. That along with claiming the only good the WT has ever done was by mistake doesn't help the discussion. You would be far better served pointing out the many legitimate faults when making your point.

Edited by Suttree

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She has done more in her short time to change things than any Amrylin for the last 3,000 years.

 

To be fair, Elaida did change things a lot too...in a bad way.

 

Touche sir.

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She has done more in her short time to change things than any Amrylin for the last 3,000 years.

 

To be fair, Elaida did change things a lot too...in a bad way.

 

Touche sir.

 

However, even more amazing was that Egwene fixed so much of that.

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I have to say I know what is my most Un favorite scene. Any of the scenes Perrin whines about finding faile.

 

Which makes me think...if I re read the whole series again and skipped basically 1/2 of winters heart and the other chapters about the search, I don't think I would lose anything integral to the story...agree?

 

It's like Perrin faile search is rj's jar jar binks. Haha

 

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On topic :wink:

 

- Tam putting Cadsuane in her place - "a bully is still a bully whether they use fists or weaves of air" (something like that)

- A Cup of Sleep

- Nynaeve setting off to prepare an army for Lan

- Siuan and Gareth, all the time. Soppy, but true.

Edited by Ashlyn

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Someone definitely already said this... but TOM Ch 52 "Boots" is spectacular. One of my signature quotes is from that Chapter.

 

Anything with Mat and Elayne, in particular the letter Mat writes to her. That was spectacular

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Not was, is.

 

So what if the BA after 3,000 years was finally ousted. How many of the traditions of the WT both spoken and unspoken were gradually introduced to advance the BA or to hinder the WT's fight for what is good?

 

Going back to the original point, is the way accepted are tested benefiting the forces of Light or the DO? Furthermore the test for the shawl, as we say in Nyn's case, is an opportune time for BA or vindictive AS to do their utmost to see a potential girl fail...or even die.

 

Are you really asking so what if the BA was finally ousted? Does that need to be explained? BTW as a clarification the BA has only existed since the Trolloc Wars not for 3,000 years. They have undoubtedly had an impact but they were a cancer that has been cut out. That along with Eggy's reforms, the reintegration of male channelers, and the treaty putting the other cultures channelers on equal ground will lead to the "Great Arvalon" we see glimpses of in quotes from the next age.

 

The testing is deeply flawed I'll grant you but to say it benefits the DO is another stretch. That along with claiming the only good the WT has ever done was by mistake doesn't help the discussion. You would be far better served pointing out the many legitimate faults when making your point.

 

Where'd you get the bolded from?

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Not was, is.

 

So what if the BA after 3,000 years was finally ousted. How many of the traditions of the WT both spoken and unspoken were gradually introduced to advance the BA or to hinder the WT's fight for what is good?

 

Going back to the original point, is the way accepted are tested benefiting the forces of Light or the DO? Furthermore the test for the shawl, as we say in Nyn's case, is an opportune time for BA or vindictive AS to do their utmost to see a potential girl fail...or even die.

 

Are you really asking so what if the BA was finally ousted? Does that need to be explained? BTW as a clarification the BA has only existed since the Trolloc Wars not for 3,000 years. They have undoubtedly had an impact but they were a cancer that has been cut out. That along with Eggy's reforms, the reintegration of male channelers, and the treaty putting the other cultures channelers on equal ground will lead to the "Great Arvalon" we see glimpses of in quotes from the next age.

 

The testing is deeply flawed I'll grant you but to say it benefits the DO is another stretch. That along with claiming the only good the WT has ever done was by mistake doesn't help the discussion. You would be far better served pointing out the many legitimate faults when making your point.

 

Where'd you get the bolded from?

 

TEotW

"Is that what they told you? Two thousand years ago I took my Trollocs across the world, and even among Aes Sedai I found those who knew despair, who knew the world could not stand before Shai'tan. For two thousand years the Black Ajah has dwelt among the others, unseen in the shadows. Perhaps even those who claim to help you."

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Rereading LoC and just finished the scene last night where Perrin et al. realize Rand has been captured. Other than the Berelaine/Perrin/Faile dynamic going on I love this scene. I think it is one of Perrin's very best.

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My absolute favorite scene would have to be the history of the Aiel. The juxteposition of the modern Age of Legends and the primitive Third Age is incredibly well done. We're reading about spears and horses and then... "A hoverfly buzzed overhead on its patrol, a deadly black metal wasp containing two men"... "Strike on Shayol Ghul this morning... something is disrupting communications." Wow. Just wow. The anachronisms in this scene come hard and fast, but that's the point-we're seeing so far back in time that the out of place was normal then. I love the whole WoT, but nothing has ever quite matched that scene, IMO.

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My absolute favorite scene would have to be the history of the Aiel. The juxteposition of the modern Age of Legends and the primitive Third Age is incredibly well done. We're reading about spears and horses and then... "A hoverfly buzzed overhead on its patrol, a deadly black metal wasp containing two men"... "Strike on Shayol Ghul this morning... something is disrupting communications." Wow. Just wow. The anachronisms in this scene come hard and fast, but that's the point-we're seeing so far back in time that the out of place was normal then. I love the whole WoT, but nothing has ever quite matched that scene, IMO.

 

Good call, very powerful scene. Really makes it feel like a different world, and shows how far "we" have fallen.

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1. Cleansing of the taint

2. My husband rides alone - who will ride with him? Raise the Golden Crane.

3. You never had more men, just the crossbows. I had enough (mat).

4. EoTW - Rand challenging Shai'tan at Tarwins Gap.

 

by the way...how did Rand teleport there?

Edited by joeron bigelow

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. And now we come to the Seanchan. The only bad about them is that they treat women who can channel in a very demeaning way. And now i am aware that i am treading lose ground.

 

I'll try to find an old link but wanted to touch on this briefly. First off the damane system doesn't just treat channelers in a demeaning way. It takes a human being, rips them away from their family and friends and erases their very identity. They are turned into something less than human.

 

 

Personally I see bonding warders as the same as this, especially when bonding against their will. If you see the way the AS (the rebel AS who's name I can't remember) debates whether to give her Asha'man warder his new badge unless it's as a reward. She's treating him like a child or slave. Also the comment about another warder acting "newly caught" after being bonded.

 

Until a warder is treated as an equal of their AS then I don't see much difference between a damane and a warder. With differences, they're both unusual servants and in some ways the damane are treated better as during the series I don't remember the warders being congratulated or a pleasant word being said to them if they do something well (I might be wrong I'm just saying I don't remember).

 

Just my 2p worth

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. And now we come to the Seanchan. The only bad about them is that they treat women who can channel in a very demeaning way. And now i am aware that i am treading lose ground.

 

I'll try to find an old link but wanted to touch on this briefly. First off the damane system doesn't just treat channelers in a demeaning way. It takes a human being, rips them away from their family and friends and erases their very identity. They are turned into something less than human.

 

 

Personally I see bonding warders as the same as this, especially when bonding against their will. If you see the way the AS (the rebel AS who's name I can't remember) debates whether to give her Asha'man warder his new badge unless it's as a reward. She's treating him like a child or slave. Also the comment about another warder acting "newly caught" after being bonded.

 

Until a warder is treated as an equal of their AS then I don't see much difference between a damane and a warder. With differences, they're both unusual servants and in some ways the damane are treated better as during the series I don't remember the warders being congratulated or a pleasant word being said to them if they do something well (I might be wrong I'm just saying I don't remember).

 

Just my 2p worth

 

I have see this viewpoint raised a couple of times over the years and it always has been soundly shot down. Don't feel like searching for one of the old threads but here is a huge difference between the two. Just a few basic points. The practice of bonding warders against their will went out the window a very long time ago. We see it done to Rand because that is an extreme circumstance(which other AS look on with disgust) but otherwise it doesn't happen. First a warder has a choice to enter into the union, it is not because he was born a certain way. There may be a few exceptions but the majority are considered equals and have very normal relationships with their AS. Not sure why some people have a hard time understanding that damane lose the core of who they actually are. They literally become an animal and have their persona wiped clean.

 

What you present of the Ashaman is the exception not the rule. Almost without fail we see AS and Ashaman who are bonded grow closer and come to a new level of understanding. Those initial links are going to be the basis of what starts men and women working together again. There is not one single way damane are treated better than warders unless you think being given "treats" for good behavior counts. Honestly it is unfathomable how you could think a suldam petting a damane and telling them they are a good pet like one would talk to their fav dog counts as better treatment. They are kept in pens and brought out for daily walks for god sakes. I mean they can even have limbs cut off for failing the empire!

 

Now granted an AS can use spirit to control their warder in extreme circumstances(although that is also rarely done and does't work on male channelers). To say using a weave in that manner is one thing, to call all warders the same as damane is patently absurd. The closest thing we see to a damane situation in terms of control through the bond is the "extra bit" the Ashaman found through experimentation to use on AS. They know more about bonding than AS at this point and can compel women they bond with a thought, no channeling needed and it doesn't matter how strong the female channeler is.

Edited by Suttree

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. And now we come to the Seanchan. The only bad about them is that they treat women who can channel in a very demeaning way. And now i am aware that i am treading lose ground.

 

I'll try to find an old link but wanted to touch on this briefly. First off the damane system doesn't just treat channelers in a demeaning way. It takes a human being, rips them away from their family and friends and erases their very identity. They are turned into something less than human.

 

 

Personally I see bonding warders as the same as this, especially when bonding against their will. If you see the way the AS (the rebel AS who's name I can't remember) debates whether to give her Asha'man warder his new badge unless it's as a reward. She's treating him like a child or slave. Also the comment about another warder acting "newly caught" after being bonded.

 

Until a warder is treated as an equal of their AS then I don't see much difference between a damane and a warder. With differences, they're both unusual servants and in some ways the damane are treated better as during the series I don't remember the warders being congratulated or a pleasant word being said to them if they do something well (I might be wrong I'm just saying I don't remember).

 

Just my 2p worth

 

I have see this viewpoint raised a couple of times over the years and it always has been soundly shot down. Don't feel like searching for one of the old threads but here is a huge difference between the two. Just a few basic points. The practice of bonding warders against their will went out the window a very long time ago. We see it done to Rand because that is an extreme circumstance(which other AS look on with disgust) but otherwise it doesn't happen. First a warder has a choice to enter into the union, it is not because he was born a certain way. There may be a few exceptions but the majority are considered equals and have very normal relationships with their AS. Not sure why some people have a hard time understanding that damane lose the core of who they actually are. They literally become an animal and have their persona wiped clean.

 

What you present of the Ashaman is the exception not the rule. Almost without fail we see AS and Ashaman who are bonded grow closer and come to a new level of understanding. Those initial links are going to be the basis of what starts men and women working together again. There is not one single way damane are treated better than warders unless you think being given "treats" for good behavior counts. Honestly it is unfathomable how you could think a suldam petting a damane and telling them they are a good pet like one would talk to their fav dog counts as better treatment. They are kept in pens and brought out for daily walks for god sakes. I mean they can even have limbs cut off for failing the empire!

 

Now granted an AS can use spirit to control their warder in extreme circumstances(although that is also rarely done and does't work on male channelers). To say using a weave in that manner is one thing, to call all warders the same as damane is patently absurd. The closest thing we see to a damane situation in terms of control through the bond is the "extra bit" the Ashaman found through experimentation to use on AS. They know more about bonding than AS at this point and can compel women they bond with a thought, no channeling needed and it doesn't matter how strong the female channeler is.

 

Just to start my response by agreeing totally that damane aren't treated well. I just feel that most warder's aren't treated well either. They're excluded from most decision making procedures (see the rebel AS camp where everything is decided by the AS, not once are the warders asked for their opinion on the seige, the plans for defending the camp and other areas which they will have expertise in), they just follow their AS around like trained muscle. The AS seem to me to act like the warders are invisible, they don't have any brains, they're never asked their opinions on things (apart from Moiraine with Lan).

 

If you feel I'm wrong please provide examples of where any AS (apart from Moiraine) asks their warder their opinion on anything tactical, say thanks for saving her hide at any point or acts like the warders aren't simply hired muscle. If you can I'll change my opinion on the matter. I appreciate you point that the AS and their warder may come to work closely together in some areas when they're on their own but around other AS or even non AS the warder is generally treated as either invisible or as hired muscle.

 

This is the point I was trying to make, warders are portrayed as, as powerless IN SOME WAYS as damane. I didn't make this clear enough in my original post and I apologise for that. Maybe I'm still not making my point well enough and I'm drifting from the point of this post too so sorry for that too.

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The Prologue of tEtoW.

When Perrin leads the Two Rivers into successful battle against the Trollocs - with the help of Faile.

When Nynaeve heals Logain, Suian, and Leanne.

When Nynaeve breaks her block and "proposes" to Lan.

Verin Sedai. Period.

When Egwene battles the Seanchan AND cleanses the Aes Sedai in TGS.

When Mat battles the gholam for the last time in ToM.

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When Mat battles the gholam for the last time in ToM.

 

I thought this was an ok scene, but Sanderson never got Mat's POV right. I think Mat is probably Brandon's weakest character. Maybe he just doesn't relate to a gambling, drinking, womanizing, badass...haha.

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Rand strangling Min and then channeling the TP was for me the most intense couple of pages in the series, and is my favorite scene by a decent amount. Beyond that, there are some Ishamael scenes that are top notch (Rand's first branding, him talking to Rand/LTT in TGS), along with alot of Lan scenes, especially when Moiraine provokes him in TGH and any scene that shows he and Rand becoming friends. Oh, and Aginor and Balthamel at the Eye, who for a moment actually live up to the hype that the Forsaken are given.

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Rand strangling Min and then channeling the TP was for me the most intense couple of pages in the series, and is my favorite scene by a decent amount. Beyond that, there are some Ishamael scenes that are top notch (Rand's first branding, him talking to Rand/LTT in TGS), along with alot of Lan scenes, especially when Moiraine provokes him in TGH and any scene that shows he and Rand becoming friends. Oh, and Aginor and Balthamel at the Eye, who for a moment actually live up to the hype that the Forsaken are given.

Ain't that the truth. Aside from Ish as B'alzamon and Lanfear in the beginning of the series, the forsaken have been kind of meh. Just a bunch of petty schemers who better hope none of the main characters ever come their way. Which, in one sense, I don't really mind. It makes them very human and I kinda like that. Just looking to accumulate power and get laid, really. Just do it in as crappy a way possible. But, one thing bothers me. They weren't just super powered people, they're supposed to have all this knowledge but its rarely every shown or used.

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