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What's your favourite scene in the entire WoT?

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Under the Oak is probably on the top 3 of everybody.

 

Just an awesome chapter. I never tire of rereading it! And I usually break any boredom spell by reading Mat's chapters in CoT and KoD. And for laughs, I read his entry in Salidar and Bowl of Winds parts.

 

Matrim Cauthon is my husband. Matrim Cauthon is my husband. Bloody Matrim Cauthon is my husband.

 

THIS!

 

Every time I read that, I'm like "Damn! The bugger pulled it off!"

Edited by Theodril

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Don't remember what 'Under the Oak" is.

 

Under an Oak is the chapter in KoD when Karede goes into Mat's camp and Tuon finally finalizes the marriage.

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"You can't have her. You can't bloody have her."

 

That, and the scene where Cadsuane deals with the Sea Folk in Winter's Heart.

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First off, Hi y'all. I've been stalking these boards for maybe 6 years or so. I started reading the WOT when The Path of Daggers was released. Now that I got that ouf of the way.....

 

There have been a lot of amazing scenes in the WOT, but the one scene that made me go back and re-read the the passage, over and over, was when Evil Rand told off Cadsuance and threatened her life by stating the pattern would bend to his will to see her finished. Rand came off as so cold, and so bad ass, there was no way Cadsuane would have been able to deal with that situation in a calmly Aes Sedia feasion. Awesome scene!!1

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I always found Logain had a pretty awesome line too, to the seafolk (even if it sounds fairly similar to Taim's kneel or be knelt):

 

"Weep if you must, but weep on the march to Tarmon Gai'don'

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For the second time on these shores, the Ever Victorious army was in a rout

 

 

And Dumai's Wells of course, nothing beats that one!!

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There are different kinds of good scenes, and in WoT there's very much of them, but I list a few of each book:

 

EYE OF THE WORLD: Baerlon and the Eye

THE GREAT HUNT: Showdown in Falme, Fain's escape and the battle in Fal Dara.

THE DRAGON REBORN: Rand vs. Ishamael, Perrin rescuing Faile.

THE SHADOW RISING: Mat's trips to the Aelfinn and Eelfinn, Perrin and Faile marrying.

FIRES OF HEAVEN: Moghedien ripping Birgitte out from Tel'aran'rhiod, Rand and Aviendha.

LORD OF CHAOS: The Dark One speaking, Rand's discussion with Fel.

CROWN OF SWORDS: The Fain scene, the battle against the gholam.

PATH OF DAGGERS: The asha'man battle in Cairhien, Bowl of Winds.

WINTER'S HEART: Rand and Lan vs. Fain (and Toram Riatin), Rand & Min, Elayne and Aviendha. Oh, and the cleansing.

CROSSROADS OF TWILIGHT: Perrin throwing the axe away, Shaidar Haran marking Alviarin.

KNIFE OF DREAMS: Moiraine's letter, Mat & Tuon.

THE GATHERING STORM: This book is full of awesome scenes, but the best ones are: Best scene ever in Wot and any book: VEINS OF GOLD! And then Semirhage torturing Rand, Rand & Tam, Just another man. The White tower reunifying was also very good, but Rand scenes were so super awesome in this book that the unifying was almost nothing compared to it. You can see that this is my favorite book.

TOWERS OF MIDNIGHT: Thom singing for Moiraine, Mat using ashandarei to escape from Ghenjei, Rand saving Maradon, the Epilogue.This book was also great and I liked all Rand scenes.

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In no particular order...

 

The portal stone scene when Rand, Mat, and Perrin & co travel to Falme and see alternative lives. I wish we could have read some of what Mat, Perrin, Verin, or Ingtar saw.

 

Nynaeve's Accepted test. The last few times I read this scene...I began to see the WT as not so different than the Seanchan or the Whitecloaks. Their version of right is the only right, and they expect all their members to fall in line. Nynaeve is better than that - better than any AS in the WT. The fact that she goes through all of this just to be in a position to help Rand earns her mad respect.

 

Mat whipping Gwayn and Galad's asses in the WT training grounds.

 

Mat's initial gambling spree in Tar Valon.

 

Dumai's Wells, of course.

 

Avi's vision of the future of the Aiel.

 

Rand's epiphany (VoG, I think).

 

There are quite a few other scenes there were totally awesome, but those mentioned above are the ones that truly stand out to me.

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Nynaeve's Accepted test. The last few times I read this scene...I began to see the WT as not so different than the Seanchan or the Whitecloaks. Their version of right is the only right, and they expect all their members to fall in line. Nynaeve is better than that - better than any AS in the WT. The fact that she goes through all of this just to be in a position to help Rand earns her mad respect.

 

No different than the WCs or Seanchan? This group has fallen no doubt but they have also saved the world a few times over and have been the major force against the shadow for 3000 years. To compare their institutional faults to groups that turn humans into animals, deny their citizens basic freedoms or torture and murder for speaking the wrong words is a bit much.

 

People need to keep in mind that just like any other group there are some great AS and some terrible ones but mostly there are just average sisters out in the world going about their work.

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even if i agree with you Suttree i the main thing , the WT is maybe then the Seanchan and the WC. But it's a definition, a thread about the moral perspective is maybe needed. The WT has huge faults , most AS has enormous egos and I are with Lothair Mantelar when he in The Way of the Light says that the access to the one power can and will breed corruption. As for the WC , well they are not bad right through with many will admit who has spoken to a common solider , the hand of the light may be infested with bad boys and they are often those who are mention when the bad side of the children are mention. ponder on this : the Hand of the Light are often regarded with no warm feelings from the others. And now we come to the Seanchan. The only bad about them is that they treat women who can channel in a very demeaning way. And now i am aware that i am treading lose ground. So here goes . Our conception of moral has been evolving for centuries, slavery was abandoned just two hundred years ago. If we are going to apply our moral in a distant past then i think we are doing the wrong thing. ( i must emphasis that I am revolted when we are shown how damane are treated so dont get me wrong). so to summarise the WT can with no difficulty be shown to be parallel to both the Childer of the Light and the Seanchan. ( may i suggest a new thread or a link to one so that we can keep this thread clear form no-topic discussions ?)

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. And now we come to the Seanchan. The only bad about them is that they treat women who can channel in a very demeaning way. And now i am aware that i am treading lose ground.

 

I'll try to find an old link but wanted to touch on this briefly. First off the damane system doesn't just treat channelers in a demeaning way. It takes a human being, rips them away from their family and friends and erases their very identity. They are turned into something less than human. In addition the Seanchan have caste slavery where only the top 5% have any type of chance at advancement. The rest are bought and sold like cattle and live a very difficult life. In Seqanchan everyone has a place and is for teh most part expected to stay there. In terms of the government there is empire wide propoganda enforced by seekers and spies. You can be kidnapped and tortured for speaking out about something you don't like. In terms of the nobility you can be killed for looking in the wrong set of eyes and they view putting the a'dam on men to see if they die screaming a form of sport. We know that their concept of a populace at peace and content in the system has been proven false based on the various revolts and sedtion we hear about in their homeland. In knowing all that I don't see hopw anyone could present the point you are making.

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. And now we come to the Seanchan. The only bad about them is that they treat women who can channel in a very demeaning way. And now i am aware that i am treading lose ground.

 

I'll try to find an old link but wanted to touch on this briefly. First off the damane system doesn't just treat channelers in a demeaning way. It takes a human being, rips them away from their family and friends and erases their very identity. They are turned into something less than human. In addition the Seanchan have caste slavery where only the top 5% have any type of chance at advancement. The rest are bought and sold like cattle and live a very difficult life. In Seqanchan everyone has a place and is for teh most part expected to stay there. In terms of the government there is empire wide propoganda enforced by seekers and spies. You can be kidnapped and tortured for speaking out about something you don't like. In terms of the nobility you can be killed for looking in the wrong set of eyes and they view putting the a'dam on men to see if they die screaming a form of sport. We know that their concept of a populace at peace and content in the system has been proven false based on the various revolts and sedtion we hear about in their homeland. In knowing all that I don't see hopw anyone could present the point you are making.

I think he is focusing on randland, where they have extreme stability compared to the rest.

 

as for the revolts that will happen in any feudalistic environment, when the central government is far away and a few individuals have power and want more

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. And now we come to the Seanchan. The only bad about them is that they treat women who can channel in a very demeaning way. And now i am aware that i am treading lose ground.

 

I'll try to find an old link but wanted to touch on this briefly. First off the damane system doesn't just treat channelers in a demeaning way. It takes a human being, rips them away from their family and friends and erases their very identity. They are turned into something less than human. In addition the Seanchan have caste slavery where only the top 5% have any type of chance at advancement. The rest are bought and sold like cattle and live a very difficult life. In Seqanchan everyone has a place and is for teh most part expected to stay there. In terms of the government there is empire wide propoganda enforced by seekers and spies. You can be kidnapped and tortured for speaking out about something you don't like. In terms of the nobility you can be killed for looking in the wrong set of eyes and they view putting the a'dam on men to see if they die screaming a form of sport. We know that their concept of a populace at peace and content in the system has been proven false based on the various revolts and sedtion we hear about in their homeland. In knowing all that I don't see hopw anyone could present the point you are making.

I think he is focusing on randland, where they have extreme stability compared to the rest.

 

as for the revolts that will happen in any feudalistic environment, when the central government is far away and a few individuals have power and want more

 

I don't really see how that is the case when compared with say Andor. If you think about Tarabon and Arad Domon are both pretty much in open revolt and now that Galad leads the WCs that treaty with Amadacia no longer holds.

 

As for your last point I agree but that runs counter to Seanchan propoganda. According to them they consalidated and all is good because of their style of governemtn. Per Karede's reference of putting down "multiple rebellions" and the seeker who faces Rand and Avi talking about "sedition in this district" we know that to not be the case.

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I don't really see how that is the case when compared with say Andor. If you think about Tarabon and Arad Domon are both pretty much in open revolt and now that Galad leads the WCs that treaty with Amadacia no longer holds.

 

As for your last point I agree but that runs counter to Seanchan propoganda. According to them they consalidated and all is good because of their style of governemtn. Per Karede's reference of putting down "multiple rebellions" and the seeker who faces Rand and Avi talking about "sedition in this district" we know that to not be the case.

WC's aren't Amadacia, they just held a large amount of sway which was destroyed upon Seanchan arrival, and then totally abandoned once Galad led them out. Tarabon revolted for a very small amount of time, after a Great General arrived and gave them assistance. Altara has been consolidated and is stable for the first time.

 

Also the WC situation only happened after about 3 rebellions within the ranks (Galad vs Valda, Galads spies, the lord captains revolt against Valda) not mentioning Valdas revolt against Niall

 

as to the second part of course it is counter to Seanchan propoganda, it would be foolish to say otherwise haha

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I don't really see how that is the case when compared with say Andor. If you think about Tarabon and Arad Domon are both pretty much in open revolt and now that Galad leads the WCs that treaty with Amadacia no longer holds.

 

As for your last point I agree but that runs counter to Seanchan propoganda. According to them they consalidated and all is good because of their style of governemtn. Per Karede's reference of putting down "multiple rebellions" and the seeker who faces Rand and Avi talking about "sedition in this district" we know that to not be the case.

WC's aren't Amadacia, they just held a large amount of sway which was destroyed upon Seanchan arrival, and then totally abandoned once Galad led them out. Tarabon revolted for a very small amount of time, after a Great General arrived and gave them assistance. Altara has been consolidated and is stable for the first time.

 

Also the WC situation only happened after about 3 rebellions within the ranks (Galad vs Valda, Galads spies, the lord captains revolt against Valda) not mentioning Valdas revolt against Niall

 

as to the second part of course it is counter to Seanchan propoganda, it would be foolish to say otherwise haha

 

Not sure why having a general involved makes any difference. I can't see those freedom fighters giving up after he's gone. Both Tarabon and Arad Domon were revolting. Altara is as you say stable.

Edited by Suttree

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I don't really see how that is the case when compared with say Andor. If you think about Tarabon and Arad Domon are both pretty much in open revolt and now that Galad leads the WCs that treaty with Amadacia no longer holds.

 

As for your last point I agree but that runs counter to Seanchan propoganda. According to them they consalidated and all is good because of their style of governemtn. Per Karede's reference of putting down "multiple rebellions" and the seeker who faces Rand and Avi talking about "sedition in this district" we know that to not be the case.

WC's aren't Amadacia, they just held a large amount of sway which was destroyed upon Seanchan arrival, and then totally abandoned once Galad led them out. Tarabon revolted for a very small amount of time, after a Great General arrived and gave them assistance. Altara has been consolidated and is stable for the first time.

 

Also the WC situation only happened after about 3 rebellions within the ranks (Galad vs Valda, Galads spies, the lord captains revolt against Valda) not mentioning Valdas revolt against Niall

 

as to the second part of course it is counter to Seanchan propoganda, it would be foolish to say otherwise haha

 

Not sure why having a general involved makes any difference. I can't see those freedom fighters giving up after he's gone. Both Tarabon and Arad Domon were revolting. Altara is as you say stable.

 

The rebellion in Tarabon only happened because it was Dragonsworn and a few lords instigated it. They were so divided that it took Ituralde's planning and leadership to make them effective. But the impression I get is that the general population in Tarabon is glad the Seanchan have restored some order and fed the starving population. If Altara is stabilized due to Seanchan presence, we have to remember that hundreds of ships offloaded in Tanchico as well.

 

Arad Doman is different. It was not on the Seanchan "radar." Only Graendal's "lord of chaos" orders in Alsalam's name instigated the hostilities between the Domani and the Seanchan. Otherwise, Galgan gives the impression that only Turam was pressing the Seanchan to take Arad Doman. I understood that as "the Seanchan aren't ready to take on Arad Doman yet as they have to secure Almoth Plain, Amadicia, and Altara before that."

 

Rand's answers in the Tear stonedoor ter'angreal indicate that the Last Battle will be won if the North and East are one and the South and West are one and both are one. The most likely interpretation is that the Seanchan, who are the South and West, will be secure in their rule in their territory to send their armies to fight in the LB. Nothing to prevent future revolutions, all most likely to be minor; but it seems that they are truly set in the conquests and will dead with revolutions as they've done in Seanchan. And With Traveling, they could bring in more resources from Seanchan (in the future) after it is stabilized as well (Mat and Tuon outriggers plotline).

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. And now we come to the Seanchan. The only bad about them is that they treat women who can channel in a very demeaning way. And now i am aware that i am treading lose ground.

 

I'll try to find an old link but wanted to touch on this briefly. First off the damane system doesn't just treat channelers in a demeaning way. It takes a human being, rips them away from their family and friends and erases their very identity. They are turned into something less than human. In addition the Seanchan have caste slavery where only the top 5% have any type of chance at advancement. The rest are bought and sold like cattle and live a very difficult life. In Seqanchan everyone has a place and is for teh most part expected to stay there. In terms of the government there is empire wide propoganda enforced by seekers and spies. You can be kidnapped and tortured for speaking out about something you don't like. In terms of the nobility you can be killed for looking in the wrong set of eyes and they view putting the a'dam on men to see if they die screaming a form of sport. We know that their concept of a populace at peace and content in the system has been proven false based on the various revolts and sedtion we hear about in their homeland. In knowing all that I don't see hopw anyone could present the point you are making.

First i want to point you attention to one thing

even if i agree with you Suttree i the main thing , the WT is maybe then the Seanchan and the WC.

as i say here i am with you one the main point but i think that a little moderation in the Seanchan hate is needed. They as as one privous poster also remarked done much good. Even Rand thinks sees that when he is Ebou Dar

The people here weren't afraid. Seanchan officers moved through the crowds, wearing those insectlike helms. The people made way for them, but of respect. When Rand heard commoners speaking, they where glad for the stability. They actually praised the Seanchan for conquering them!
This shows quite discesvly that even though the Seanchan empire has serious flaws they also have huge pluses. The AS are if not hated seen with a mix of admiration ,strong distrust and dislike.They spend their days plotting , scheming and squabbling in the hall. Awhile the world is slowly crumbling to dust. I could bring up the actions of Elida and the whole circus but i think you get my point.

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The scene with the novice being killed (I think her name was Sarah?) is the one that I most dread in my readings. I keep forgetting which book it is in and so it comes as a surprise each time. You learn just enough about her to feel like she shouldn't be killed, like she is so innocent and her only mistake was to be the one who brought Min to Suian. I am sure that once her character had been fleshed out it would be find to see her killed, but since it isn't, and since you only see her wanting desperatly to be AS it is a tragedy.

 

It is my favourite and least favourite scene in the whole epic.

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thanks BC for bringing them back to topic, but going by my experience. They are going to ignore both of us and continue (shrugs). Anyway my favorite scene in later books was one where NYny goes and implores to Rand about his growing hardness. He counters with do you think I don't know and thanks nynaeve for caring.

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as i say here i am with you one the main point but i think that a little moderation in the Seanchan hate is needed. They as as one privous poster also remarked done much good. Even Rand thinks sees that when he is Ebou Dar

The people here weren't afraid. Seanchan officers moved through the crowds, wearing those insectlike helms. The people made way for them, but of respect. When Rand heard commoners speaking, they where glad for the stability. They actually praised the Seanchan for conquering them!
This shows quite discesvly that even though the Seanchan empire has serious flaws they also have huge pluses.

 

Shows decisively? Ermm you as an example give one country that has never known stability. Their monarch was too weak to control anything outside the city limits. These are an emotionally shot, Dark Rands observations on the close aftermath of Altara being conquered. They haven't had family members made damage in serious numbers yet, they haven't realized just how pervasive the seeker and listener system is. Regardless of this one country I have already proven the stability in their nation a myth. As mentioned before Kared talks about the unrest durig his career and having to put down "numerous rebellions" in his time with the Death Watch guards. The seeker Rand and Avi came across talks of "sedition" in that district, so no your example does not show anything clearly. Aside from all that the bottom line is whatever the stability it comes at FAR too great a cost to personnel freedom.

 

The AS are if not hated seen with a mix of admiration ,strong distrust and dislike.They spend their days plotting , scheming and squabbling in the hall. Awhile the world is slowly crumbling to dust. I could bring up the actions of Elida and the whole circus but i think you get my point.

 

Why would you bring up Elaida? She was borderline crazy and then danced to the strings of a forsaken, had a the head of the BA forcing her to give conflicting orders to sow chaos and was under Fain's influence. Not really an example of AS as a whole.

 

As for the rest of your point they are seen differently in different places as you seem to suggest. But I have no idea what your point is about spending their days plotting in the hall? At any given time more than 1/3 of the WT is out working in the world. Guarding the blight, averting wars, healing people, forging treaties etc. That is the whole point. For all that the institution has failed AS are really like any other group. Some legendary ones(Cads, Verin, Gitara, Moir) and some terrible ones but mostly there just average sisters out in the world working for good.

Edited by Suttree

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What was the number of BA in the Tower? 1/5th?

 

Other than a Darkfriend meeting, how many other organizations or gov'ts have 1/5th of their members dedicated to subverting their purpose to evil and to the victory of the DO.

 

Any good that the White Tower has done, has been done by mistake.

 

Sorry, I know this is off topic. I still maintain that the WT needs to fall and I began to think this when I saw how Nynaeve was treated.

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What was the number of BA in the Tower? 1/5th?

 

Other than a Darkfriend meeting, how many other organizations or gov'ts have 1/5th of their members dedicated to subverting their purpose to evil and to the victory of the DO.

 

Any good that the White Tower has done, has been done by mistake. .

 

Their numbers of BA run slightly higher to normal when compared with the rest of the world. That is totally understandable given the fact Ishy created them and placed a focus on the WT since they were the main force facing the shadow and the power level they hold. You can not blame the WT for the acts of a forsaken and DFs however and I hope you are not suggesting there is some how inherent predisposition.

 

As for your comment that any good was done by mistake it is precisely that type of hyperbole that muddles the conversation an makes it virtually impossible to take some of the antiAS crowd seriously. Saving the world in the trolloc wars was a mistake? Numerous false dragons captured was a mistake? Gitara setting up events so Rand could even be born was a mistake? Look no one is arguing that the WT has failed as an institution but there are more than enough real faults to discuss without making ludicrous comments such as that. Again every sisters room we see has momentos from a long life lived adventuring outside the WT. Your average sister doing the deeds listed above has been a force for good despite whatever flaws the institution may have.

Edited by Suttree

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AS are people , and as people they have flaws , some are vain some are evil some are good and so on. But they have one thing that ordinary people don't have. power to change things with the help of the one power. This reconquers enormously more responsibility , a responsibility the WT says it has, but obviously not. If they would just step down a peg or two and admitted that they are as flawed as the ordinary man they would not be half as infuriating are and they could change to bee like the ideal that they says they are. See for example Nyn testing , some of AS made her live trough horrible things just because they wanted her to fail. They showed nothing of the decorum of witch they demanded of Nyn. That hypocrisy is revolting. So with that said Suttree I bow my head for the fact that we have different opinions on this topic especially about the Seanchan. I hold to my stand point that the Seanchan deserves reconnection for the good things they have done and not just get complains. And that the WT as an institution is deeply flawed and that it is self-deception to think otherwise.

 

What was the number of BA in the Tower? 1/5th?

 

Other than a Darkfriend meeting, how many other organizations or gov'ts have 1/5th of their members dedicated to subverting their purpose to evil and to the victory of the DO.

 

Any good that the White Tower has done, has been done by mistake.

 

Sorry, I know this is off topic. I still maintain that the WT needs to fall and I began to think this when I saw how Nynaeve was treated.

I totaly agree with Suttree on this , to say that everything good the WT has done was done by mistake is abusurd

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That hypocrisy is revolting. So with that said Suttree I bow my head for the fact that we have different opinions on this topic especially about the Seanchan. I hold to my stand point that the Seanchan deserves reconnection for the good things they have done and not just get complains. And that the WT as an institution is deeply flawed and that it is self-deception to think otherwise.

 

I agree on both counts in relation to AS. The institution is deeply flawed and I doubt you will find anyone to argue otherwise.

 

I can not agree on the Seanchan however. Tuon very well may change things for the better moving forward but once again it is impossible to argue that their stability offered(which has proven to not be true) does not come at far too great a cost to personnel freedom.

Edited by Suttree

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