Similarities with WOT and Sword of Truth (SOT) Series

[MarkDiLillo]

This image says everything. The guy is the literal definition of a loser.

 

Edited June 3, 2013 by Mark D

[Raven Servant]

Not here to argue, but I had to sign up just to register my rueful lol @ the specious (yet determined) 'defense' of Terry bloody Goodkind.

 

Terry Goodkind is, objectively, a hack. A terrible writer, and a plainly superficial mind.

 

Obviously he stole directly from Mr. Jordan. Obviously and inarguably. 'Sword of Truth' is 'Battle Beyond the Stars' to Jordan's 'Star Wars'

 

If one has even the barest shred of intellectual honesty (not to mention reading comprehension/retention skills) one cannot deny it.

 

Yes, it is entirely relevant that he is an incredibly disgusting human being.

 

Free of the constraints of personal honor, unrestrained by universally recognized ethical boundaries, and in thrall to a philosophy that both rewards and encourages base, self-serving behavior, of course he has no problem whatsoever denying the charge.

 

Liars do not lose sleep because they've lied. They're liars.

 

No thief can be considered a reliable witness to the crimes attributed to them. In this regard, a thief as common as Goodkind should be somewhere near the very bottom of anyone's list of credible arbiters.

 

The assertion that the overwhelming number of direct similarities between WoT and SoT are nothing more than happenstance - an almost random assortment of "many common fantasy tropes" - is the definition of sophistry. It is a laughably untenable line of defense; the "similarities" are flagrant and indisputable..

 

When one ignores the preponderance of evidence in favor of a position more personally palatable to it's adherents, objectivity necessarily comes into question.

 

There is no credible defense of Goodkind's thievery.

 

Among certain publishers, it is a notorious instance of outright conceptual plagiarism. Goodkind's work (and do please add sarcastic italics around that possessive 's') is a veritable 'how to' guide for those unscrupulous publishers who want to cash in on a successful concept when they do not hold the legal rights to that concept.

 

Galt - sorry, Goodkind - is a shameless hack, and he always will be. He wanted money, possibly acclaim, and didn't give two sh-ts how he accomplished that goal. Clearly there are more than a few that share his disinterest.

 

'Sword of Truth' is a poorly realized, ham-fisted, cheap, bargain bin knock-off of Wheel of Time. It is an egregious example of literary pilferage.

 

T'was ever thus.

Couldn't have said it better myself. I remember trying to read Goodkinds WFR, and Stone Of Tear as part of a "endurance challenge" on the ASOIAF website. Besides the fact you can ses Objectivism wseeping into the first book with the whole ban fire bullshit his step brother pulls. And the mighty whitey racism with the mud people. The general one dimensional nature of the bad guys just really got to me. I mean in WOT people who oppose Rand (welle except for the forsaken) really arn't evil in any way. Even the friends of the dark might have motives that could be understandable (despair at a seemingly untenable position).  Compared to all who serve the various bad guys generally tend to be shown to be completley unredemmable. Also those who arn't Irredemabley evil in Goodkinds world are generally shown the light through some great show of character by Tairy..Richard rather than through devleopment of the story. PLus the numerous bastards of Richards father are extradnily comical, remindng me of a bad soap opera. Finally I put a huge value on world building in fantasy and Tairy really just seems to have everything as generic as he can get in a fantasyland perspective.  But despite these differences its obvious there are many similarities, the collar in the Stone Of Tear (yeah that title, being used by the sitsers of the dark draws far to many paralels to several plot points in TSR.  Now besides the being a bad witer and a plagiarist to boot I must admit being religiously opposed to Goodkind, being raised in a high anglican household with a high interest in Catholicism and the writings of Gilbert Keith Chesterton I find the entire philosophy of Objecvism to be anathema to me.

[clutzyninja]

I may have missed someone already bringing this up, but what you're describing is what's known as the "Hero of 1000 faces."  Also known as the "monomyth."  Many, MANY (most?) fantasy, mythological, and sci-fi stories share the same cliches.  The hero starts off as a kid from BFE who knows little about the world.  This is a powerful storytelling setup, because it puts the protagonist in the same shoes as the reader/viewer.  We also don't know anything about the world that the story takes place in, so when things are explained, it's neither forced nor patronizing.  If Luke was already a Jedi and experienced star traveller, it wouldn't make any sense for people to be explaining how those things worked to him for our sake.

 

To quote from the book that coined the term, "A hero ventures forth from the world of common day into a region of supernatural wonder: fabulous forces are there encountered and a decisive victory is won: the hero comes back from this mysterious adventure with the power to bestow boons on his fellow man." I'm sure that sounds familiar.

 

It's a pretty interesting read on wikipedia.

[Agitel]

I may have missed someone already bringing this up, but what you're describing is what's known as the "Hero of 1000 faces."  Also known as the "monomyth."  

 

No it isn't. We already acknowledged that was not the trope we're talking about and that the similarities go far deeper than that.

Edited June 12, 2013 by Agitel

[Suttree]

@Lazy
 
The Yeard is a nickname given to Goodkind:
 

Yeard
A yeard refers to a ponytail and beard combination which can be seen in almost any picture of Terry. The word originated as a misspelling of beard which became a joke that we picked up and ran with in the threads. Sometimes Terry is referred to as "The Yeard", a definitive term and insult all rolled into one.

 

While his legion of detractors have come to be known as the "Lemmings of Discord":
 

Lemmings of Discord

The name given to "haters" of Terry by his most loyal fan My*. This originated in an email that My* sent to Pat of Pat's Fantasy Hotlist in which he attempted to insult Pat by calling him a "Lemming of Discord", a title so obviously brilliant and hilarious that we only wish we came up with it ourselves.

 

For must of us the terrible prose, shoddy plotwork, blatant rip offs and chickens who aren't chickens are enough reason to dislike his work. Him being a major douche(mocking a terminally ill RJ etc.) is only icing on the cake.

Edited April 10, 2014 by Suttree

[threadnecromancer]

"Goodkind's work is a veritable how to guide for unscrupulous publishers who do not have the rights"

Is that really true? I have never read any of his work, but Goodkind's series is published by Tor is it not? 

[Sabio]

Yeah Goodkind took Rj ideas, the big difference was Goodkind made his series much more adult.

[Magicana]

Yeah Goodkind took Rj ideas, the big difference was Goodkind made his series much more adult.

 

Top lel.

 

Leaving aside the authors for a moment (Because I can think of nothing more adult than bragging about how well your heart is doing at a time when the man you are accused of copying is dying from heart disease), the SoT is a thin veneer of adulthood.

 

>Good side is always good, even when they do bad

>Bad side is always bad for no reason

>Pages upon pages of Libertarian rants

>Kahlan and Richard are separated in each book and have to get back together by the end.

[InfinLuminous]

I can understand the criticism of SoT (although I think a lot of it has to do with the author's philosophical leanings), and I would only ever rate Goodkind as average at his absolute best, but let's not pretend that several of RJ's WoT books were mostly TERRIBLE. Books 7-10 as a whole are embarrassingly bad, and even book 11, while it STARTED to get things back on track, was painful to get through. As for "copying" RJ, no one in the industry takes that claim seriously, just people who have decided they personally hate Goodkind because of either (1) his worldview, or (2) the fact that he's a jerk. Some people have small minds and can't separate the artist from the art.

[Occams whiskey bottle]

WoT was the first fantasy series I ever read and the Sword of Truth was the second. I was looking for something that was very similar to the WoT, and I have to say that I didn't like SoT at all. I thought the story itself was ok, but it was all I could do to finish the first book and overlook the horrible dialogue. That opinion was formed before I read any criticism of SoT.

[Orderofolde]

Yeah Goodkind took Rj ideas, the big difference was Goodkind made his series much more adult.

A publisher would not publish both if that was the case.  Both are different enough in their own regard to be unique.  BOTH RJ and Goodkind used classical themes seen in many others works.  RJ basically rewrote LOTR because he didn't agree that some simple country person would follow some wise old wizard that came along and tapped him on the shoulder and said "You are the one.  You must go forth and save the world."  He just "borrowed" heavily from mythology, religion, and oral history in which to do it.  Don't believe me?  Every earlier audiobook where he does his interview on it states as much from his own mouth.

 

However, it was most hilarious that Robert Jordan was named as copyright holder in one of the first printings of Goodkind's books which TOR promptly recalled.  If you are lucky enough to own one, they went for around $300 a few years ago last I saw one on Ebay.  And we never really know...maybe RJ had both ideas he pitched to TOR and TOR bought both and hired Goodkind to finish developing and write it.  After all, RJ's entire story basis is an unending story that repeats itself in variation after variation.  But I've seen enough RJ and Goodkind used in other single works and series of Fantasy, Scifi, etc.  Authors borrow, authors use common themes, authors write in other authors to pay homage or some phrase or saying that fans pick up on and know it is a "nod" to another.  Some can write concurrently and have similar ideas or expressions but just because two authors share women and men holding power that might use a collar in their magic system, but if you want to look at things from that perspective...RJ ripped off Lucas and Star Wars with his "Source" for the Force, changing it slightly by dividing it into half for the men and women.  While that probably isn't true, he'd be pissed nonetheless for the comparison.

 

What we do know is that companies in the end are out to maximize profit, and there was bad blood between RJ and Goodkind, and lastly, we don't have all the facts. 

Edited April 12, 2014 by Orderofolde

[Sabio]

True its impossible in fantasy not to have some similarities.  But my first thought after reading the first few books of SoT was "wow this seems a lot like Wheel of Time". For me its clear Goodkind "borrowed" a few ideas and then changed them some.  You basically had the black Ajah, male channelers who had to be killed, dreams being used for evil, etc...  I agree authors borrow from each other.  The issue is instead of just saying RJ inspired him or something, Goodkind just denied everything and claimed they were his own ideas.  That makes a person look shady when pretty much everyone knows he is lying.  RJ was always honest on his inspirations for things in the books.

[Orderofolde]

I read both series as they came out and never once thought that they were similar.  Goodkind's to me was exciting at first then sucked because every book it was Kahlan or Richard being taken away and the same struggle to reunite.  The magic system was different, and I just have to say, RJ's Graendal had nothing on those Mord-Sith with their red leather and whips.

 

It wasn't until after I began visiting DM for about a year before I saw the accusations and was like...???  Of course looking and comparing I could see what people were saying.  Then again we have RJ who spoofed and rewrote Tollkien making Ogers nice well spoken giants and was open about it from the beginning.  It was never supposed to be as popular as it became, it was just a stepping stone to him for his Shogun-esque books he wanted to do in the Seanchan/Japan setting from his visits to the Orient.  Remember, RJ had come off the whole Conan writing and the brother loving half-sister whatever of Fallon trilogy books which was akin to John Jakes but much better written, I never knew RJ was Regan O'Neil which made it quite interesting after I got halfway through WOT and was like...oh, that's cool.  I'd wondered why there wasn't any more Fallon books.

[Sabio]

But I don't think people would of minded Goodkind borrowing ideas if he had simply said I drew inspiration from Jordan.  No one is saying authors don't borrow from each other but the good authors admit it while the others deny it and claim it was all their idea.  I actually enjoyed the first 2 of the sword of truth series, but the series IMO quickly got ridiculous.   Especially with the army numbers.

 

@orderfolde, but TOR allowing some of the stuff Goodkind did might also explain some of the bad blood between TOR and RJ.

[Suttree]

But I don't think people would of minded Goodkind borrowing ideas if he had simply said I drew inspiration from Jordan.  No one is saying authors don't borrow from each other but the good authors admit it while the others deny it and claim it was all their idea.

 

Indeed. Apparently The Yeard doesn't write "fantasy" either.

 

From USA Today 4 August 2003:

 

Haddonfield, NJ: Second Question - I've noticed similarities between your Sword of Truth series and Robert Jordan's Wheel of Time series...(Black Sisterhood vs. Black Ajah; The Order vs. The Seanchan; Richard vs. Rand both discovering their powers, both have Nameless evil Gods...etc.) I've often voiced my suspicion that these two series might be occurring on the same world...how crazy am I?

 

Terry Goodkind: If you notice a similarity, then you probably aren't old enough to read my books.

From USA Today 5 January 2004:

 

Delmar, NY: Have you ever read or heard about the Sword of Truth series by Terry Goodkind? After reading the series it is obvious many of the main ideas are copied from the WoT.

 

Robert Jordan: I'm aware of Mr. Goodkind.

Robert Jordan's blog 15 July 2006 - NO CHAMPAGNE YET

 

For Richard Scholten, I have never discussed anything whatsoever with Terry Goodkind. I suggest that you check the publication dates of his books and mine. Of course, he says he has never read me, or so I'm told, and I would never contradict a statement like that. Just check out the pub dates on his books, and the pub dates on mine, those that contain the similarities you speak of.

[Tsukibana]

I long ago decided Goodkind was a skeezebag.

 

That said - Wizard's First Rule was alright, then he started stealing... the last three may have come out of nowhere, but I actually felt that for once we were seeing some originality.

I actually enjoyed the ending.

[yennifer.bloodrose]

I know this is a very old thread but rereading both series (WoT for like the 7th time because of the TV series coming out and SoT just because I got into a rereading mood...) and found a glaring comparison:

 

From WoT (The Shadow Rising -September 15, 1992?

A wagon driver disturbed a small brown snake as they were making camp the fourth evening. A twostep, Aviendha called it later, and it proved its name. The fellow screamed and tried to run for the wagons despite seeing Moiraine hurrying toward him; he fell on his face at his second stride, dead before the Aes Sedai could dismount from her white mare.

 

And From SoT (Stone of Tears -June 11, 1995?

“And why didn’t he finish you?”
“Because I put a few ten-step arrows in him.” He pointed at his throat. “Here.”
“What’s a ten-step arrow?”
Savidlin reached to the side and pulled a barbed, fine-pointed arrow from his quiver. “One of these. See the dark stain? Poison. Ten-step poison. When it sticks you, you get only ten steps, and then you are dead.” He laughed. “My men decided to think of a different way to get those women to carry them.”

 

 

Just sayin... 

[Harldin]

14 minutes ago, yennifer.bloodrose said:

I know this is a very old thread but rereading both series (WoT for like the 7th time because of the TV series coming out and SoT just because I got into a rereading mood...) and found a glaring comparison:

 

From WoT (The Shadow Rising -September 15, 1992?

A wagon driver disturbed a small brown snake as they were making camp the fourth evening. A twostep, Aviendha called it later, and it proved its name. The fellow screamed and tried to run for the wagons despite seeing Moiraine hurrying toward him; he fell on his face at his second stride, dead before the Aes Sedai could dismount from her white mare.

 

And From SoT (Stone of Tears -June 11, 1995?

“And why didn’t he finish you?”
“Because I put a few ten-step arrows in him.” He pointed at his throat. “Here.”
“What’s a ten-step arrow?”
Savidlin reached to the side and pulled a barbed, fine-pointed arrow from his quiver. “One of these. See the dark stain? Poison. Ten-step poison. When it sticks you, you get only ten steps, and then you are dead.” He laughed. “My men decided to think of a different way to get those women to carry them.”

 

 

Just sayin... 

A half decent Archer tries to use a one step Arrow, and doesn’t need poison to do it. 
Only ever read the first SOT book, didn’t do anything for me, so gave it up. But if that is the standard of his ideas I’m glad i did, whether it was taken from WOT or not.

You put an Arrow in someones Throat, he is not going to take 3 steps further let alone 10 and you don’t need to stuff around with Poison, he will be dead long before the poison takes effect.

[DojoToad]

I liked Wizard's First Rule when it first came out but gave up on the series by book 3.  Went back to re-read book 1 about a year ago and the 'magic' was gone.  I threw it out after finishing...

[SinisterDeath]

10 hours ago, yennifer.bloodrose said:

I know this is a very old thread but rereading both series (WoT for like the 7th time because of the TV series coming out and SoT just because I got into a rereading mood...) and found a glaring comparison:

 

From WoT (The Shadow Rising -September 15, 1992?

A wagon driver disturbed a small brown snake as they were making camp the fourth evening. A twostep, Aviendha called it later, and it proved its name. The fellow screamed and tried to run for the wagons despite seeing Moiraine hurrying toward him; he fell on his face at his second stride, dead before the Aes Sedai could dismount from her white mare.

 

And From SoT (Stone of Tears -June 11, 1995?

“And why didn’t he finish you?”
“Because I put a few ten-step arrows in him.” He pointed at his throat. “Here.”
“What’s a ten-step arrow?”
Savidlin reached to the side and pulled a barbed, fine-pointed arrow from his quiver. “One of these. See the dark stain? Poison. Ten-step poison. When it sticks you, you get only ten steps, and then you are dead.” He laughed. “My men decided to think of a different way to get those women to carry them.”

 

 

Just sayin... 

Yea... That's not even the most egregious example. 
Terry wasn't much loved among Jordan fans, specially since he was decidedly anti-fantasy, and openly hostile to fantasy fans and even his own fanbase. 

[Dagon Thyne]

Mini authors borrow from other authors the will of time started out as Robert Jordan's of the Lord of the rings story.  And he admitted this.  He never pretended that he didn't borrow from tolkien.  

 

Terry goodkind didn't borrow from authors he ripped them off and claimed their work as his original ideas.  you love to make speeches about how he doesn't write fantasy because he's above fantasy.  But in the end he couldn't come up with a single idea without stealing it from another author and claiming it after them.

 

And he is notoriously Petty.  He publicly really told the cover artist for one of his books calling the work the worst thing he had ever seen in claiming that he had nothing to do with hiring a person even though it's clear that he did.  

Be mocked Robert Jordan when he was dying claiming that Jordan intentionally left the will of time unfinished so that he could die with a legacy of having an unfinished masterpiece.  Even though at the time that goodkind of made those statements they were already looking for a person to finish the series.  And that's not even addressing the fact that Jordan died in a relatively young age and that he was working on serious right up until the week he died.  

 

 

 

 

 

The evidence of Terry goodkind being a petty self-centered piece of trash is well documented he is a pompous pretentious douchebag who places himself on a pedestal claiming to be above other authors and the fantasy genre as a whole.  He openly steals material from other authors and claims it to me 100% original. 

If I'm being completely honest I don't think the world lost anything when he died.  Normally hate speaking ill of the Dead, button Terry goodkind's case I make an exception.  The way he treated other others, his own staff, his fans and the fans of other authors (he wants called a fan retarded because they preferred another author over him)

I don't think he deserves respect in Life or in death.  

[Elder_Haman]

On 12/9/2020 at 7:09 AM, SinisterDeath said:

Yea... That's not even the most egregious example. 
Terry wasn't much loved among Jordan fans, specially since he was decidedly anti-fantasy, and openly hostile to fantasy fans and even his own fanbase. 

The biggest tell is this: I read both series beginning (roughly) when they came out. I finished the entire WoT saga, devouring the books immediately when they were released and spending way too much time wondering what would happen. I have since re-read the entire series once and am on my third listen-through on the audiobooks. Jordan was a genius.

 

I stopped somewhere in the middle of SoT. Hadn't thought about it until someone revived this thread. Didn't remember a single thing about it except that the sexual aspects were disquieting. I'd kinda forgotten Goodkind even existed. 

[Kalessin]

On 12/15/2020 at 5:35 AM, Elder_Haman said:

The biggest tell is this: I read both series beginning (roughly) when they came out. I finished the entire WoT saga, devouring the books immediately when they were released and spending way too much time wondering what would happen. I have since re-read the entire series once and am on my third listen-through on the audiobooks. Jordan was a genius.

 

I stopped somewhere in the middle of SoT. Hadn't thought about it until someone revived this thread. Didn't remember a single thing about it except that the sexual aspects were disquieting. I'd kinda forgotten Goodkind even existed. 

Well, finding this thread brought a bit of it back to me. I started reading Terry Goodkind with his Debt of Bones novella, and that, looking back, is probably the best piece of work he's ever written. Then I came across Stone of Tears in a public library for-sale bin, and bought it. I was put off on opening the book by the mad creature that haunted Richard and Kahla in the first chapter, though I struggled through to finishing the book. Later I bought the first and second books to try to find if he was worth reading, but decided that he wasn't, and haven't thought about them since. I hated the way he used the "mudmen" - I was born in Papua New Guinea, and Terry Goodkind's "mudmen" are an obvious use-or-abuse of a particular group of Papua New Guineans whose traditional ceremonial costume involves mud masks. But Terry Goodkind makes them mere tokens. If he had had Richard or Kahla find the answer to some problem from the "mudmen" or some such thing, I could've forgiven him. But he didn't - that was mere tokenism. After making my torturous way through another of the series, I decided that the mriswith were the real heroes of the series, not the humans, and concluded that I had much much better books to spend my money on, the WoT series being a prime example of a worthy use of discretionary cash.