WoT Season 2 - I WATCHED ALL THE EPISODES TOPIC

[Wassup]

21 minutes ago, Scarloc99 said:

It seems to be a trend of TV, particularly fantasy TV that they like to film things in darkness ignoring that many of us don't have the high quality TV's that allow it to be viewed brilliantly. I will say WOT has not so far gone as bad as the battle for winter-fell, which no one could actually see (I mean to be fair I wish that had been the case for all of season 8 lol). I hope that we will get more daytime action throughout WOT. 

the battle at Falme will be during the day. There will just be a thick fog because of the blowing of the horn. So, visibility will probably be worse. 

[Guire]

5 hours ago, Lightfriendsocialmistress said:

I absolutely agree with your observations. I felt compelled to add some of my additional thoughts. The dark forces are exceptionally skilled at knowing and zeroing in on the fears and internal struggles and triggers of each individual. For example, machin chin was directed in a very personal and specific way to each character. This is how the dark ones hook people and gain control by planting seeds of doubt and what gives them such power and influence over people. They focus in on and then exploit and magnify the deepest fears specific to the individual. Every character is affected in a unique and personal way based on their already existing, deep and troubling internal conflicts. For example Perrin feels conflicted with the wolf connection and struggles with fear of violence and ishy reinforces this by saying that his wolf nature is in fact dark and by acknowledging that therefore Perrin himself must accept that his true nature is also dark. Min and her inherent ability of having visions is presented by ishy as a curse implying that this natural expression from her basic nature is wrong. Liandrin honing in on mats struggle with his actions that appears to be abandoning his friends and subsequently magnifying his fear that they’ve abandoned him. Rands fear of not being able to control his power and hurting those around him has also been exploited by ishy and lanfear. The list of examples goes on and on, but my basic point is that the representatives of the dark forces have a masterfully strategic and intricately well thought out and implemented design for exposing and amplifying the deepest and most troubling aspects buried within each individual, thereby ensuring at the least significant influence over the “target’s” psyche and at the highest level complete control. 

The dark forces are always better at propaganda and manipulation even in real life.  Also the better forces can never admit they arent as clever as they think they are, so the wheel of politics keeps spinning.  

[king of nowhere]

5 hours ago, Scarloc99 said:

It seems to be a trend of TV, particularly fantasy TV that they like to film things in darkness ignoring that many of us don't have the high quality TV's that allow it to be viewed brilliantly.

so, more marketing for high quality TV. they have to sell those somehow

[mogi68]

I talked a lot of smack about Season 1 but I have to admit I am enjoying S2 quite a bit 🙂 

Edited September 13, 2023 by mogi68

[Gary Again]

16 hours ago, Kaleb said:

Totally agreed with this dynamic, and it very closely tracks with the type of disinformation that Ishy was giving via those dreams in TEOTW. I'm always hoping to see more Tel'aran'rhiod in the show as it's one of the distinctive elements of this world.

 

Yeah and just Ishy in general I always found it interesting how much he corrupted just by coming out every few hundred years it was like he would start a snowball rolling that became an avalanche which I thought was interesting. I agree with Tel'aran'rhiod one of my favorite parts and then just the random times people run into each other Rand/Nynaeve and Perrin/Egwene I really enjoyed both of those. 

 

4 hours ago, Lightfriendsocialmistress said:

I absolutely agree with your observations. I felt compelled to add some of my additional thoughts. The dark forces are exceptionally skilled at knowing and zeroing in on the fears and internal struggles and triggers of each individual. For example, machin chin was directed in a very personal and specific way to each character. This is how the dark ones hook people and gain control by planting seeds of doubt and what gives them such power and influence over people. They focus in on and then exploit and magnify the deepest fears specific to the individual. Every character is affected in a unique and personal way based on their already existing, deep and troubling internal conflicts. For example Perrin feels conflicted with the wolf connection and struggles with fear of violence and ishy reinforces this by saying that his wolf nature is in fact dark and by acknowledging that therefore Perrin himself must accept that his true nature is also dark. Min and her inherent ability of having visions is presented by ishy as a curse implying that this natural expression from her basic nature is wrong. Liandrin honing in on mats struggle with his actions that appears to be abandoning his friends and subsequently magnifying his fear that they’ve abandoned him. Rands fear of not being able to control his power and hurting those around him has also been exploited by ishy and lanfear. The list of examples goes on and on, but my basic point is that the representatives of the dark forces have a masterfully strategic and intricately well thought out and implemented design for exposing and amplifying the deepest and most troubling aspects buried within each individual, thereby ensuring at the least significant influence over the “target’s” psyche and at the highest level complete control. 

 

I agree it makes the shadow much more capable and insidious and at the same time it's relatable because it's usually our own internal monologue and criticism that holds us back. If the shadow exists in the real world this is how it exists so I like the approach. I also thought it was interesting what they changed with Machin Shin that it wasn't random disturbing things it was specific internal doubts and fears turned against the person it's a lot more effective to me. I think it will be really rewarding to watch the characters overcome this because it's similar to what a lot of people face is our own internal critic is a lot of times our toughest enemy.

[Godoggo]

so I am trying to get around the fact of the needless changes that were made from the books, not because they were necessary because of the medium but because Rafe thinks he's a better story-teller than Robert Jordan.  This leads to a lot of wasted time about things that don''t carry the story along.

 

That being said, and with some of the wasted time still present, I like Season 2 a lot more than season 1 for many of the reasons that have been stated.  But one significant problem that I see.  My daughter-in-law has not read the books at all and likes the show but there are basic things that the show hasn't informed the non-reader that all the readers pretty much knew about early.  What do the different color Ajah's stand for?  One lesson and it would drive the story and understanding of the watcher.  I asked her what is a foresaken and it really has never been explained.  They could have put Tom in the Two-Rivers to give the story of the Dragon prophecy at the beginning and to explain the foresaken.  There are several things likke this

Quote

 

 

[fra85uk]

Having gone through, I have not yet matured an overall opinion...just random thoughts I am gonna share

 

At this point, it is useless to compare with the book and/or complain about changes. It is a very different thing, which will succeed or fail mainly on its own merits/flaws.

 

However, in this regard, while the show surely does not seem to be made to please the most, let's say, "conservative" book fans, at the same time, it feels that, without any book knowledge, it might be difficult to catch all the details.

 

This leaves (at least for me) open the question: what is the target audience of this show? I think this is (commercially) the main conundrum that the show has not solved and will decide its future.

In this context, while we know that streaming platforms are far from being open in sharing numbers (an issue which is at the core of the ongoing Hollywood writers' strike), I don't think that the reception is satisfactory for Amazon, in terms of buzz and interest generated only.

A few random numbers on FB

House of the Dragon > 1 mln followers

The Witcher                681.498 followers

Rings of power on prime  531.229 followers

One Piece  292.582 followers

The Last of Us 244.909 followers

Wheel of Time 71.987 follower

 

 

Not entering in comparison on which show is better, I think that when you spend the money that Amazon is spending on WoT, you maybe would like something better...

Anyway, coming to reviewing thoughts...

 

 

The technical aspects of the show are drastically improved.

 

Writing is still oscillating too much among good and bad, worst CW-level bad (most of it given unfortunately to some of the main characters)

 

I do not also understand the reasons beyond the pacing and the time devoted to each sub-plot.

 

Acting is a big problem because there is a sheer difference between best and worst performers.

In this context, thanks to good writing and  Kate Fleetwood being two steps above the rest, Liandrin is by far the most interesting character in the season and i honestly feel more curious to explore her motivations than follow the stories of the supposedly main characters.

 

Is it an awful show? No, there are definitely worse shows

Is it an outstanding, top-notch tv show that can be compared with the best of the best? No, it has too many problems.

Can be enjoyed? Probably if you are too focussed on the books, you need to step back or try the effort to understand that this is a different tell of the story which will still end in Tarmon Gai'don (or, as I fear, in some Amazon execs meeting).

 

Looking it without prejudice, I would give an overall 6.5/7 to the show. 

 

Now, just to have a personal take: i have started watching the One Piece adaptation by Netflix, which is probably the WoT of manga/anime in terms of length.

On every single technical aspect , I feel WoT show being far superior than OP live action...

 

BUT

 

OP knows clearly who is its audience and how to make them happy, you can feel the respect and love for the source material, for the lore, for the characters.

In a word, it has something that WoT show is still missing: a soul

 

 

[Mirefox]

It is interesting.  I've watched and listened to a few different podcasts/reviews of the show, a number of which were done in a roundtable format.  To a person, all of the non-book readers have gaping holes in their understanding of the world and had to have them explained by a fellow reviewer.  Things like Ta'veren, the ajahs, etc.  Some of this might be difficult to explain without massive exposition dumps, but they've shown through other scenes that they aren't afraid of that.

 

Separating myself observations from fidelity to the book, they show still has a serious infestation of mediocre-at-best writers and very shaky internal consistency.  I think consistent world building has been an issue from the start and I think it shows with some of the confusion from the non-book readers.

 

There is a lot of information to take in, obviously, and those of us that are fans of the books sometimes take our understanding for granted and think that what isn't made obvious to the lay person should be obvious because we understand it so well.  The writers, though, need to improve on this massively.

 

I haven't watched any of the supplemental shorts and in this context, I don't think anyone should be required to watch additional media to understand concepts presented in a show; the show should stand on its own merits.

[Scarloc99]

1 hour ago, Mirefox said:

It is interesting.  I've watched and listened to a few different podcasts/reviews of the show, a number of which were done in a roundtable format.  To a person, all of the non-book readers have gaping holes in their understanding of the world and had to have them explained by a fellow reviewer.  Things like Ta'veren, the ajahs, etc.  Some of this might be difficult to explain without massive exposition dumps, but they've shown through other scenes that they aren't afraid of that.

 

Separating myself observations from fidelity to the book, they show still has a serious infestation of mediocre-at-best writers and very shaky internal consistency.  I think consistent world building has been an issue from the start and I think it shows with some of the confusion from the non-book readers.

 

There is a lot of information to take in, obviously, and those of us that are fans of the books sometimes take our understanding for granted and think that what isn't made obvious to the lay person should be obvious because we understand it so well.  The writers, though, need to improve on this massively.

 

I haven't watched any of the supplemental shorts and in this context, I don't think anyone should be required to watch additional media to understand concepts presented in a show; the show should stand on its own merits.

I mean the people I know who are watching it are not having there enjoyment reduced because those things have not yet been explained. Right now the TV show has not fully explained all those nuances, and I don't think that is a bad thing because the viewers don't need to know it yet. In the books there are details about the world that we don't really start learning until book 4, the whole Ta'veren and the detail about what the ajahs are is not fully fleshed out and explained until later on. So I am not expecting it all to have been explained by episode 12. 

[Mirefox]

1 hour ago, Scarloc99 said:

I mean the people I know who are watching it are not having there enjoyment reduced because those things have not yet been explained. Right now the TV show has not fully explained all those nuances, and I don't think that is a bad thing because the viewers don't need to know it yet. In the books there are details about the world that we don't really start learning until book 4, the whole Ta'veren and the detail about what the ajahs are is not fully fleshed out and explained until later on. So I am not expecting it all to have been explained by episode 12. 

I do not understand where your faith in the writers stems from.  What have they already adequately explained?  The dual, gendered nature of Saidar/Saidin has been butchererd/forgotten/miscommunicated/misunderstood, and it is fundamental to the story.  Liandrin gets it wrong; the writers even created a prime opportunity for themselves to explain it when they had Rand and Moiraine talking and they couldn't even manage to explain it. 

 

The warder bond is clearly confusing as we don't understand fully what is going on with Lan and Moiraine.

 

How about the Whitecloaks disdain for Aes Sedai, even though Bornhold (maybe?) sold MOiraine ot find an Aes Sedai for healing?

 

All I'm saying is that the worldbuilding has been vague and inconsistent.  If you want to test it, ask your non-reader friends what Saidar is.  Ask them what the taint is and what causes it (because the show has implied multiple times now that men cause it when they channel).

 

Again, I'm separating this from fidelity to the book, but I want consistency within the medium and I still haven't seen it, which has led to confusion for many.

[notpropaganda73]

While there are non-book readers out there who are able to follow things and taking huge enjoyment out of the show, I do believe the show has struggled to communicate lore in an effective way quite frequently.

 

I think they have communicated lore/viewpoints/world building within the Wheel of Time world super effectively in some areas. Tam talking about the Wheel in episode 1 was excellent, but not really built upon - my girlfriend doesn't really understand that the Lews Therin in that cold open has the same soul as Rand. Ila about the Way of the Leaf, the Whitecloaks introduction, Perrin and Elyas (finally) in S2 - these are all effective communications of people/lore unique to WoT. 

 

But channeling, male vs female channelers, the Power (do they channel the same power?), the Forsaken, the Ways, Padan Fain/the dagger/Shadar Logoth, all of these aspects I feel has not been explored or explained as effectively. Ishy is an excellent villain but the "reveal" of him not being the DO hasn't really worked. I also think they have totally confused things with regards to the Warder bond - the Steppin story I thought effectively communicated the nature of the bond, but the entire Lan arc in this season has totally muddied the waters (at least for my partner). 

 

I think sometimes the show tries to play it much too coy and cute, a nod to the books that we get excited about as readers, but is totally lost on someone without that background. I think they really should have leaned more heavily on Thom Merrilin in S1 with the boys and explaining "the world" a bit more without the source of info being Moiraine. And I think they are missing a trick so far in S2 not using Verin as another source of knowledge as a Brown (and an exciting opportunity with that character...)

 

Anyway, I'm enjoying the show and I definitely think it's a step up for S1 overall so far, but mostly I'm sitting here thinking "it isn't quite as good as it could be". 

[nsmallw]

On 9/12/2023 at 5:41 PM, Kaleb said:

I'm always hoping to see more Tel'aran'rhiod in the show as it's one of the distinctive elements of this world

I've seen folks describe scenes in season two that are supposed to be in Tel'aran'rhiod but i can't recall them. Lol.  Can anyone give specific examples in season two. Thanks. 

[Scarloc99]

29 minutes ago, Mirefox said:

I do not understand where your faith in the writers stems from.  What have they already adequately explained?  The dual, gendered nature of Saidar/Saidin has been butchererd/forgotten/miscommunicated/misunderstood, and it is fundamental to the story.  Liandrin gets it wrong; the writers even created a prime opportunity for themselves to explain it when they had Rand and Moiraine talking and they couldn't even manage to explain it. 

 

The warder bond is clearly confusing as we don't understand fully what is going on with Lan and Moiraine.

 

How about the Whitecloaks disdain for Aes Sedai, even though Bornhold (maybe?) sold MOiraine ot find an Aes Sedai for healing?

 

All I'm saying is that the worldbuilding has been vague and inconsistent.  If you want to test it, ask your non-reader friends what Saidar is.  Ask them what the taint is and what causes it (because the show has implied multiple times now that men cause it when they channel).

 

Again, I'm separating this from fidelity to the book, but I want consistency within the medium and I still haven't seen it, which has led to confusion for many.

And yet my wife, who has never read the books and has had nothing explained to her understands everything that is happening on the screen, she gets that there are 2 halves to the source, male and female, and that the Male half is tainted, she doesn't know why, because the characters don't know why, which actually makes sense, why would anyone really understand why the male half is tainted, everyone involved died a long time ago and he men that where involved where the first to go mad. I imagine that will be explained in the flashback scenes when it becomes relevant, which is not right now in the show. It makes sense that Aes Sedai might think that it is Men themselves that taint the male half, it makes sense that the viewers are led to believe that fact, up until the moment that Rand discovers that no, the taint was done by the dark lord and so can be reversed. At that point the cause can be explained and linked to the solution. Until then all viewers need to know is that Male Channellers go mad. Why would Liandrin suddenly go into some mass explanation about the 100 companions and the backlash of the dark lord, why and how would the Aes Sedai of the white tower know about that, it makes far more sense that the Shadow, under the direction of Ishy, would have ensured that everyone believed that Men tainted the power in order to make sure no one ever tried to fix it. 

The Bond, again, the ambiguity is part of the story, the viewer should not have more information then the characters in this kind of story, the details of the bond have been explained, we know that if an Aes Sedai dies the warder is affected in a major way, we know the bond can be masked, we know that when not masked it allows a warder to sense where their Aes Sedai is, that information is being drip fed in bit by bit and used to drive the story forward, as opposed to just being an exposition dump. That is good storytelling. Again my wife, never read the books, understands exactly that, as do other friends of mine. 

Whitecloaks we saw in season 1 they hate channellers, I mean the collection of rings, the treatment of Egwene, I am convinced that Bornhold was using that as a ruse to try and weed out an aes sedai or 2. 

 

The world building is different, because putting something o the screen requires different storytelling, you show not tell. Season 1 had far far to much telling, far to much exposition. Season 2 has struck the balance much much better and we are seeing the rules of the world take effect in front of us, and, in the style of RJ, the main characters are also learing that what they thought they knew about the rules was wrong. 

No non book viewers are not 100% aware of all the stuff we as book readers know, but they really shouldn't be, you are asking the wrong questions if you are asking viewers to explain something not explained then yes they will be confused, instead let them just enjoy it, and, if something has not yet been explained i the show then tell them, as I do, to WAFO. 

[Gary Again]

Really excited for the episode! I think we've ended the Selene arc so could be the proper appearance of Lanfear and I think Nynaeve/Liandrin should be pretty interesting, Nynaeve may start pulling someone else's braid lol. If Liandrin is in the ways it would be so cool to hear what Machin Shin has to say to her. 

 

On a related note I really want to hear what Machin Shin said to Loial. Only one of your eyes are as big as a teacup, the other is the size of a saucer. Your mom is looking for you and I told her where you are. She comes.

 

I think Min in the last episode with Ishy was definitely TAR, in the books I think the dark friend social was in TAR and that seems to be an efficient way to do a meeting between a wide array of people. I think Selene was bringing Rand into TAR because it's easier to manipulate him there but not sure on that. I know she did that in the books and people are wondering what she was channeling so I think it could be pulling them into TAR but we'll see. I think that may be one of the things on rewatch is they may use those quick cuts to show that scenes we thought happened in the real world happened in TAR but I haven't rewatched yet and haven't been particularly paying attention to this. 

[Scarloc99]

On 9/14/2023 at 11:14 AM, notpropaganda73 said:

While there are non-book readers out there who are able to follow things and taking huge enjoyment out of the show, I do believe the show has struggled to communicate lore in an effective way quite frequently.

 

I think they have communicated lore/viewpoints/world building within the Wheel of Time world super effectively in some areas. Tam talking about the Wheel in episode 1 was excellent, but not really built upon - my girlfriend doesn't really understand that the Lews Therin in that cold open has the same soul as Rand. Ila about the Way of the Leaf, the Whitecloaks introduction, Perrin and Elyas (finally) in S2 - these are all effective communications of people/lore unique to WoT. 

 

But channeling, male vs female channelers, the Power (do they channel the same power?), the Forsaken, the Ways, Padan Fain/the dagger/Shadar Logoth, all of these aspects I feel has not been explored or explained as effectively. Ishy is an excellent villain but the "reveal" of him not being the DO hasn't really worked. I also think they have totally confused things with regards to the Warder bond - the Steppin story I thought effectively communicated the nature of the bond, but the entire Lan arc in this season has totally muddied the waters (at least for my partner). 

 

I think sometimes the show tries to play it much too coy and cute, a nod to the books that we get excited about as readers, but is totally lost on someone without that background. I think they really should have leaned more heavily on Thom Merrilin in S1 with the boys and explaining "the world" a bit more without the source of info being Moiraine. And I think they are missing a trick so far in S2 not using Verin as another source of knowledge as a Brown (and an exciting opportunity with that character...)

 

Anyway, I'm enjoying the show and I definitely think it's a step up for S1 overall so far, but mostly I'm sitting here thinking "it isn't quite as good as it could be". 

It has not been explained that LTT and Rand have the same soul, it will be, when it is important to the story, right now it is not, when Rand starts hearing LTT's voice and seeing him, then it makes sense to explain that more. 

All the other points you say have not been explored, by this point in bok 2 none of it had been explained, mainly because a lot of it RJ had not yet come up with. loial explained the ways in season 1, but i the books no one ever really knows what they are, how they are made or why they are tainted. Shadar Logoth, no one understands it other then to know the danger it is, in the books it is never explained really what created it or how, much of that information comes from the companion resources. 

There has been no reveal that Ishy is not the DO yet, the show is still being ambiguous abotu that because Ishy is being ambiguous, which matches the books because Ishy for a long time was almost convinced he was. 

And the Lan Arc is meant to muddy the waters, it is meant to make people wonder and think and debate what is going on. We are on episode 12, and like i said at this point in the books there was tons of stuff we didn't know about the lore, and a lot of it RJ had not figured out yet. and as for your suggestion that Thom or Verrin should be used to gve exposition dumps, that is the worst possible writing style for a movie or TV show, think of the worst movies and shows and I can guarantee that some of the issues are characters used in the way you are describing as opposed to actually showing the information as part of the story. I agree season 2 is a massive improvement in 1, I also agree that some small tweaks and it could really step up again, but, the material being used right now is the weakest of the series (in my opinion) books 1-3 really are the worst of the series before it kicks off proper in 4. We should by the end of season 2 according to Rafe be most of the way through books 2 and 3 and that means we can then get to the good stuff where the foundation that has been laid can be fleshed out far more fully. 

 

On 9/14/2023 at 12:05 PM, Gary Again said:

Really excited for the episode! I think we've ended the Selene arc so could be the proper appearance of Lanfear and I think Nynaeve/Liandrin should be pretty interesting, Nynaeve may start pulling someone else's braid lol. If Liandrin is in the ways it would be so cool to hear what Machin Shin has to say to her. 

 

On a related note I really want to hear what Machin Shin said to Loial. Only one of your eyes are as big as a teacup, the other is the size of a saucer. Your mom is looking for you and I told her where you are. She comes.

 

I think Min in the last episode with Ishy was definitely TAR, in the books I think the dark friend social was in TAR and that seems to be an efficient way to do a meeting between a wide array of people. I think Selene was bringing Rand into TAR because it's easier to manipulate him there but not sure on that. I know she did that in the books and people are wondering what she was channeling so I think it could be pulling them into TAR but we'll see. I think that may be one of the things on rewatch is they may use those quick cuts to show that scenes we thought happened in the real world happened in TAR but I haven't rewatched yet and haven't been particularly paying attention to this. 

It makes no sense for the social to be in TAR because of the scene with the trollocs, and the girl was there. 
 

 

On 9/14/2023 at 11:29 AM, nsmallw said:

I've seen folks describe scenes in season two that are supposed to be in Tel'aran'rhiod but i can't recall them. Lol.  Can anyone give specific examples in season two. Thanks. 

The only 1 that is for sure is the Ishy Min one in episode 4. Rands bad dreams where also probably in Tar. 

[SinisterDeath]

8 minutes ago, Scarloc99 said:

It makes no sense for the social to be in TAR because of the scene with the trollocs, and the girl was there. 

That's where it's listed in the X-Ray.

 

Also, Ishy loves pulling people in the Flesh into TAR.

 

^{(I didn't turn hardware acceleration off for this screenshot, but the episode title, time stamp, and subtitles should give you a clear idea of where this scene is in the episode.)}

 

[Scarloc99]

5 minutes ago, SinisterDeath said:

That's where it's listed in the X-Ray.

 

Also, Ishy loves pulling people in the Flesh into TAR.

But having a whole bunch of trollocs int here a well, I mean, that opens up a whole host of tactical options that the shadow didn't use in the books, at least until the last couple of books, when suddenly the shadow sent squads of aiel, and ashaman etc into the world of dreams to hang out and do stuff. 

[SinisterDeath]

6 minutes ago, Scarloc99 said:

But having a whole bunch of trollocs int here a well, I mean, that opens up a whole host of tactical options that the shadow didn't use in the books, at least until the last couple of books, when suddenly the shadow sent squads of aiel, and ashaman etc into the world of dreams to hang out and do stuff. 

It's T'A'R. The girl could have had a living nightmare of Trollocs, and he soothed her nightmare of those creatures. Ishy could have manifested those Trollocs outside of that meeting before the entire event even happened. 

As far as we know, Trollocs still can't go through gateways and live... which I believe is one of the only ways to go to T'A'R in the flesh. (Not including whatever Perrin/Slayer does)

Everything we've seen up to this point indicates they're still keeping Trolloc Movement through the Ways.

[notpropaganda73]

29 minutes ago, Scarloc99 said:

It has not been explained that LTT and Rand have the same soul, it will be, when it is important to the story, right now it is not, when Rand starts hearing LTT's voice and seeing him, then it makes sense to explain that more. 

All the other points you say have not been explored, by this point in bok 2 none of it had been explained, mainly because a lot of it RJ had not yet come up with. loial explained the ways in season 1, but i the books no one ever really knows what they are, how they are made or why they are tainted. Shadar Logoth, no one understands it other then to know the danger it is, in the books it is never explained really what created it or how, much of that information comes from the companion resources. 

There has been no reveal that Ishy is not the DO yet, the show is still being ambiguous abotu that because Ishy is being ambiguous, which matches the books because Ishy for a long time was almost convinced he was. 

And the Lan Arc is meant to muddy the waters, it is meant to make people wonder and think and debate what is going on. We are on episode 12, and like i said at this point in the books there was tons of stuff we didn't know about the lore, and a lot of it RJ had not figured out yet. and as for your suggestion that Thom or Verrin should be used to gve exposition dumps, that is the worst possible writing style for a movie or TV show, think of the worst movies and shows and I can guarantee that some of the issues are characters used in the way you are describing as opposed to actually showing the information as part of the story. I agree season 2 is a massive improvement in 1, I also agree that some small tweaks and it could really step up again, but, the material being used right now is the weakest of the series (in my opinion) books 1-3 really are the worst of the series before it kicks off proper in 4. We should by the end of season 2 according to Rafe be most of the way through books 2 and 3 and that means we can then get to the good stuff where the foundation that has been laid can be fleshed out far more fully. 

 

 

I mean there's a lot to address there but honestly, and I don't mean this to come off as rude so apologies if it does - but one of the defences of the show I find most tiresome is "at this point in the books x and y and z hadn't happened/this character didn't do much at this point in the books" etc. It's an adaptation and they have a chance to improve on the books on that regard, at least for a TV medium. I do not expect all mysteries to be revealed at this early stage, I don't expect to see fully fleshed out characters from the final book on screen right now - but I also think there are fundamentals of WoT that we did know at this early stage of the books that have not been explained. I also think the show hasn't always established why certain characters, events, general points of lore are important to the story. 

 

I mean if there hasn't been a reveal of Ishy not being the DO in the show, maybe I just thought it had been because the line "We didn't defeat the Dark One, we set his strongest lieutenant free" is in nearly every piece of promotion of the show alongside a visual of Ishy. 

 

I also don't mean exposition dumps from Thom and Verin, I mean what I said - a source of knowledge. Thom already provided one such example giving us some info on the Aiel in S1. Elyas explaining parts of being a Wolfbrother to Perrin - not an exposition dump, a scene crafted in a way to explain lore and progress Perrin's story a little. These scenes can be created in a way that it's not a classroom with one character going on a 5 minute monologue explaining the nature of the One Power, saidin and saidar. The show purposely avoided explaining that there is even a difference in the OP for men and women in episode 8 of S1. 

 

As I say I am enjoying the show but much like S1 I feel there are missed opportunities to establish character moments, establish wider lore in WoT etc. I don't feel like these are the results of changes persé, at least not the changes that many of the loudest critics of S1 seemed to take issue with. I think a lot of these missed opportunities/problems come from poor execution and poor writing. But as I've said numerous times, when the writing is good on the show, it is excellent. 

 

[DaddyFinn]

1 hour ago, notpropaganda73 said:

my girlfriend doesn't really understand that the Lews Therin in that cold open has the same soul as Rand

Didn't Moiraine say in the very first episode that "The Dragon has been born again. We don't know where and to whom and we must find them." Should be clear enough with Tam's talk with Rand of souls being reborn.

[SinisterDeath]

25 minutes ago, notpropaganda73 said:

I mean if there hasn't been a reveal of Ishy not being the DO in the show, maybe I just thought it had been because the line "We didn't defeat the Dark One, we set his strongest lieutenant free" is in nearly every piece of promotion of the show alongside a visual of Ishy. 

 

[bringbackthomsmoustache]

2 hours ago, Mirefox said:

All I'm saying is that the worldbuilding has been vague and inconsistent.  If you want to test it, ask your non-reader friends what Saidar is.  Ask them what the taint is and what causes it (because the show has implied multiple times now that men cause it when they channel).

To be fair the books also misdirected as to what the taint is as well (with various characters referring to it as "the dark one's counterstroke" as if that was some active effort by the DO when in practice it was the inevitable effect of trying to seal the bore with the one power).   Probably due to long term misdirection efforts by Ishamael to reduce the chances of the dragon (when reborn) working out a workable method of re-sealing the bore properly. 

[Agitel]

The Taint was a counterstroke by the Dark One, an intentional action, and not just a passive effect that happened. It was only possible because of the sealing.

[Mirefox]

9 minutes ago, Agitel said:

The Taint was a counterstroke by the Dark One, an intentional action, and not just a passive effect that happened. It was only possible because of the sealing.

Yes, in the books.

 

In the show, Liandrin says that the One Power is made filthy every time a man channels (implying that men are the cause).  THe female Aes Sedai in S1E8 warns Lews Therin that his plan will result in the OP being corrupted (implying that is isn't an intentional counterstroke but a foreseen side effect).

 

My point is simply that we need consistency and we need much better-established worldbuilding.

[SinisterDeath]

15 minutes ago, Mirefox said:

(implying that is isn't an intentional counterstroke but a foreseen side effect).

Counterstroke noun
: a return stroke : COUNTERBLOW
He said the response wasn't over and the US could take further, covert action—a thinly veiled reference to a counterstroke in cyberspace the US has been considering.

Side Effect noun
: a secondary and usually adverse effect (as of a drug)
toxic side effects
 called also side reaction

I put those definitions up there, because while the two words aren't synonymous, consider this.

What do you do when you notice a Mosquito biting you?

You slap it.

Is that a counterstroke? Or a side effect of noticing it sucking your blood? 

If this was Magic the Gathering, and I cast a spell against a blue deck. Is it a counterstroke when they inevitably counterspell anything you attempt to cast against them? Or a side effect of attempting to cast anything while playing against a blue deck where you may as well be playing a game where you just draw every card and put it into your graveyard?