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A WHEEL OF TIME COMMUNITY

notpropaganda73

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Everything posted by notpropaganda73

  1. I've said this a couple of times on this forum but I think there are some unrealistic expectations about what screenwriters do when creating scripts for film and TV. I would be surprised if any of the writers have read very much of the source material, and I wouldn't expect them to either. And I don't think having the screenwriters read the source material would improve the aspects of writing in the show that I don't like or think hasn't worked. One of my biggest issues with the show is that, in my opinion, it drops in references or moments from the books without doing the work to justify that within the show itself. I would argue in fact that many of those problems are coming from an awareness of what is important in the books and the need to get them on screen regardless of whether it makes sense in the show.
  2. Yes, and Logain knew she was shielded as well didn't he? Although my partner thought Rand could see the shield because he was the Dragon, not because he was a male channeler. She didn't register Logain could see the shield at all, but I think that was because she wasn't really interested in Lan/Moiraine in S2 so sort of switched off a lot when their storylines were on screen. I think as book lovers what has grated with us is the obfuscation about saidin/saidar, where naturally an Aes Sedai would likely comment about it or Moiraine saying she couldn't teach Rand in S1 for example. This method the show is taking would work if nobody knew anything about channeling or the One Power, or we were solely focussed on the EF5 as they are learning. But we are around experienced channelers and the Forsaken and I think there has been one mention of saidin in the show so far? In the S1 finale cold open I believe? I may be wrong there. They have a lot of world building to do and I think to be honest they feel they can get away without establishing the saidin/saidar binary until later in the seasons. Or they just didn't think it was an important element of the lore until later on. We'll see if it works from S3 where as we expect Rand to get more training, and the Supergirls to grow in their power, the differences will naturally have to happen on screen
  3. Considering his poor judgement that has been on full display in recent months (and I'm being generous), I would take much of what he says with a truckload of salt
  4. I actually think there are good examples within the WoT adaptation itself, where there is very good writing to contrast against the poor writing when it happens. I am quite repetitive about what I think has been good about the show so forgive me for repeating myself. But good writing, in my opinion: - Introduction of the Whitecloaks in S1. An Aes Sedai tied to the stake, her hands chopped off, highlighting their brutality, and danger to Aes Sedai (being a magic wielder isn't a protection here). The entire scene sets Valda up in terms of his motivations, the type of character he is etc. Later in that episode we worry for our heroes as they meet the Whitecloaks on the road, is this monster with them? Are they all like him? But this leader seems more civil - until Valda appears. It's tense. Aes Sedai cannot lie, what if he asks them directly? The way he creeps around her, Lan restraining himself. Moiraine's answers, dancing around the truth. It's all really well done - set up of the Whitecloaks (Valda in particular), some worldbuiling (the Aes Sedai are not universally respected), payoff in the very same episode, paid off again further in the series when he captures Egwene and Perrin - as a villain he works because of his introduction, and that's good writing. The final payoff in S1 with Valda doesn't necessarily work for me, it's a little weaker than the rest of the writing - Perrin should have broken free/showed the "wolf within" more than just his eyes. It would have made Valda's reappearance and seeing Perrin again land a lot more effectively in S2 imo. Bad writing: - Nynaeve and Elayne capturing the sul'dam. It sets up them helping Egwene escape, and also sets up something about the a'dam that should shake the foundations of Seanchan society. It goes absolutely nowhere within S2 - no payoff for the discovery, no payoff for either Nynaeve or Elayne in capturing the sul'dam, they learn little to nothing (that is shown in the finale), and Egwene just frees herself and discovers the same thing they did regarding the a'dam anyway. Functionally within the series, Elayne and Nynaeve capturing the sul'dam serves absolutely zero purpose. And that is poor writing for a TV show or film. If a scene or action does not serve any wider purpose to the story or characters, it's simply poor writing.
  5. In general I think a lot of writing quality is obviously subjective, however screenwriting in particular is a lot more mechanical than other forms of writing imo. So it's a little easier to say whether something is good or bad when it comes to a script, than say a novel because a writers' prose is going to be liked by some and disliked by others. With a script you can trace through the set ups and payoffs, character motivations and arcs being following through on. But that is my subjective opinion ha
  6. My anecdotal feedback is I only know three others watching the show: - My partner, has never read the books. Enjoys the show but is completely lost at times. I think the long gap from S1 to S2 didn't help. She loved S1 up to the finale. Nynaeve is her favourite character overall but felt like she didn't get anything to do in the second half of S2. Every time any Forsaken is on screen she's creeped out and hates them (in a "they're very good villains" sort of way). She picks up on my reactions so knows I'm not happy with Rand's journey so far - to her she likes the overall story and that they all seem important. Hated the Seanchan (again, in a good-villain way). She was bowled over by the Liandrin DF reveal. And Barthanes. Basically any time there's been a DF reveal she's been like WHAAAAAT hahaha - My best friend, read the books along with me years and years ago. He works in film and TV. Has a bad memory generally so wouldn't be close to loads of the details from the books. His favourite thing about the series was worldbuilding. Enjoyed S1 up to the last two episodes. Wasn't really fussed about watching S2 but I told him it was better than S1. He started watching it a couple weeks ago, but I haven't heard what he thinks of it so far. In general for S1 he was pretty forgiving of changes (mostly because he couldn't remember big details), and as someone who worked on film and TV through COVID I think he was very very forgiving of general production issues. His biggest worry before watching any of it was the unknown actors being bad, as in the EF5 especially, and he was pleasantly surprised with them. We're catching up this weekend so will find out what he thinks of S2. - Another old friend, was just as obsessed with the books as me. She loves the show. Loves Egwene and Lan (??!??!! that one baffles me hahaha). Loves all the Forsaken and how the show is showing us a lot of the grey in between rather than straight up Light vs Dark. Her main annoyance is that Padan Fain isn't "f-ed up enough". Says she wanted to rewatch S1 and S2 as soon as she finished the finale. Definitely more on board with the show generally than I am I think. But we haven't had proper in depth chats about it, just some texts after the finale for both S1 & S2.
  7. I'm sorry you suffered that betrayal, I hope you guys can work it out 😅
  8. I think this is definitely part of the conversation but is just sad to me. I think there is so much potential in the gendered magic system for a TV show and modern audience. I've no doubt there are studio execs looking to avoid attracting too much noise from that sphere.
  9. this annoyed me. it felt like a set up for Mat completely despairing, losing all hope, and Ishy showing him some sort of way out (which would feed into Rand seeing his friends all "lost"). But all we got was Mat still resisting the dagger/Padan Fain. There was no real payoff to that at all for me
  10. I generally agree with your post but there hasn't been any meaningful Verin so far really. At least not enough for me (I loved her in the books). I think they have a real opportunity with her as a character for TV so was a bit disappointed at how little we got of her in S2.
  11. Also can I just push back on the idea that "if they had just listened to Brandon everything would be better". Brandon suggested that for the end of S1, Lan would abandon Moiraine and go save Nynaeve. His description of it sounded incredibly cheesy to me. Nevermind the idea that Lan would abandon his duty. The S1 finale was a mess obviously but I'd have hated a scene like that, which came direct from Brandon.
  12. I think most of the arguments about the show come from this to be honest. The motivation behind changes for the show will generally dictate whether you hate it (and Rafe) or whether you're just critical of it. Some people seem to insist that Rafe and the other writers are arrogant and the only thing they like about WoT is the world RJ created, but they can improve everything else. Whereas the reality (to my mind), is that they are screenwriters. They are trying to tell the story as best they can via the TV medium. Screenwriting and novel writing are so far apart from one another in terms of the skills it takes for both. THIS IS NOT A DEFENCE OF ALL WRITING OF THE SHOW before someone comes for me on that
  13. Honestly, agreed. I think the woke label came from a certain corner of the internet who were angry at some of the casting, (god I remember being on here before S1 aired and some poster kept going on about Egwene and how the Two Rivers would be all white, it was horrible), people way too precious about the books and obviously seeing enemies from all sides when it came to changes made, and Rafe's own worldview and comments as well. I think for people who aren't surrounded by all that, who weren't following the build up to the show religiously and the comments made by the creators of the show, aren't close to the changes that have been made etc., the show in and of itself doesn't really espouse anything too "woke". I think it's probably an interesting contrast, where *some* of the folks who were upset about the changes think it has to do with being "woke", whereas people completely fresh to the show probably just think "well that's the world of this show" and don't attribute any malice to Mat's background being what it is in the show, or think "men are being torn down" because Lan asked Moiraine to heat up the bath (I remember this being posted on here in S1 as a criticism haha)
  14. sure, it's silly in the Bond movies as it became such a ridiculous trope. but often times it can be applied to shows, movies, literature that has really effective villains where you fear for your heroes, but there are still plenty of situations where the bad guy just doesn't do the thing they need to do to win. What makes those situations work or not is the build up and writing before those moments. I'm not arguing for anything in relation to the S2 finale btw, I like the idea that Ishy was toying with them a little to try and make Rand a bit more desperate and possibly turn, but I think if that was the case they didn't show it very effectively.
  15. I do find any question which ultimately asks "why doesn't the bad guy just kill the good guy there?" to be quite tiresome. Honestly there's a myriad of in-universe reasons but the same answer can be applied to literally every situation in every form of media - because the narrative requires the bad guy not to kill the good guy in that moment.
  16. absolutely. I wouldn't even consider myself a show-hater at all, in fact I'd be on these pages defending the show more often than not, but if you voice any hint of criticism over there it's a deluge
  17. I remember exactly the fandom reaction to Fellowship, I adore LotR I remember it all very well. Much like this adaptation I was upset at some things but I could see the overall reasoning for things being left out - however I think Fellowship is a really excellent movie and a great adaptation. I don't think the other two entries are anywhere near as good and as I mention, I think Return of the King is actually quite a bad movie. However those two entries not being as good doesn't take away from how good Fellowship is imo.
  18. The entire tension of the books for me was Rand and whether he's too far gone, what sort of victory would it be if he won and remained the ice-cold Rand, the tension between light and dark, and the road to hell paved with good intentions. Ingtar set that up in book 2, the show should never have bothered with him if they weren't going to give him the full arc. Give it to Liandrin now and it will likely pay off very well - however I still think we need someone close to Rand to show him that path/danger.
  19. I don't really get watching people watch an episode and live reacting, I'd sort of prefer a thoughts after watching sort of thing, which I guess the last half hour of this video is (which is what I skipped to). I absolutely agree with Brandon on some points and not on others. When he said "What does the sword mean to Rand", this is my biggest problem with the finale. Not so much that they didn't spend time with Rand and the sword throughout the season (that is annoying), but they haven't done anything about Rand's struggle with his own identity and the sword, his fathers' sword, symbolises that. But to be honest I think Brandon is being fair to the creators even in his criticisms, although just reading the scripts and not having watched the whole season is a bit unfair to the show imo. I don't particularly like this format, I'd much prefer a discussion setting after they've watched it and had a bit of time to digest and form their thoughts.
  20. Remove the Horn from S2 and what do we actually lose, story and character wise? What do we gain, time wise? I think the entirety of the hunt and the "reveal" of the heroes is sort of what I fear for the show going forward. Things are said occasionally over a few episodes but nothing feels established properly until a rush for the season finale when we sort of get the thing from the books but it doesn't quite land as you'd hope because it doesn't feel earned, or authentic, or whatever. I realise this is all subjective but I don't think the Horn is really that important overall to the story, so why not cut it and focus in on more Perrin and Elyas scenes, more of Rand, more of Mat, Nynaeve and Elayne. More Verin! For anyone worried about the Heroes, they are still in TAR, they can be called to the Last Battle by Callandor or whatever As for Ingtar, I think these are decisions to make early in the process. If you know the DF reveal is going to be cut, then cut the other threads through the season with him in it. As I said, it's not a huge amount of time, but as that is one of top favourite moments from the books, I would have preferred it not being teased it at all. As I mentioned in the ep8 thread, give his moment to Lan protecting Moiraine instead.
  21. I see what you're trying to say with regards to the point in the overall story, but the Fellowship movie is an excellent adaptation even with all of the changes up to Rivendell. We have established the ring's power/danger, we have established Gandalf, we have established the four hobbits and they're relationships with one another and their own personalities, we have established Strider and his willingness to protect the hobbits, and we have established the danger of the Nazgul as well. Yes we don't have any barrow wights or Tom Bombadil (and I was so sad not to see Tom), but if you are looking at an adaptation and limited time, do you need the Hobbits to face more than one extreme danger on their way to Rivendell? What is the most key incident on that journey? It's Weathertop. It establishes Frodo being stabbed, what happens when he puts on the Ring, the other three Hobbits showing their bravery to try and save him, and Aragorn coming to the final rescue. Barrow wights and Tom Bombadil are world-building elements, bits of LotR that fans adore and maybe upset not to have, but are they key to the overall story being told? No. So far I think the WoT show has done an ok job of getting everyone to "Rivendell", so to speak. But have they managed to establish our characters as effectively along the way? I would say no, personally. Film and TV are different mediums, there is less material to adapt for LotR, so I do think it's an easier job in all honesty. And as a fan of LotR, the only movie I really like out of the Jackson movies is Fellowship. Return of the King in particular is verging on just a bad movie for me.
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