How did the show hold up for you?

[SinisterDeath]

40 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

This is the type of thing I’m talking about. 

Right?

 

How can anyone claim Perrin's conversation with the Tinkers was crap?

 

Nynaeve's conversation with the Red Aes Sedai?

 

Thom's story about Owyn?

 

 

[Ryan al'Thor]

Ep 4 was badass!

[ArrylT]

It seems strange to me to blame any of the writing that is bad, except perhaps Episode 1 on Rafe Judkins since he is not the writer or the director.  Further, much of the writing was either taken from or inspired by the books.   

 

The writer credited for Episode 4 for example is Dan Hill

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dave_Hill_(screenwriter)

 

who wrote episodes for Game of Thrones.

 

And Wayne Yip was the director (he directed some Doom Patrol apparently).   And he'll be heavily involved in the LOTR prequel

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wayne_Yip

 

So unless Rafe specifically went through and changed every bit of dialogue, and edited every bit of every scene ...   he basically approved the scripts by proven writers & directors that he felt best portrayed The Wheel of Time.   Or imho, basically the opposite of trying to destroy WOT.

 

 

 

 

 

[MasterAblar]

Pretty sure most people here, including me, have very little idea of how making a TV show actually works. 

[JenniferL]

2 hours ago, Maximillion said:

 

Right now, I plan to keep watching.

I am an optimist and the optimist in me hopes Rafe is fired and we get some emergency surgery done on the show in time for season 2 (or season 3).

It's still saveable, but clearly not with RJ at the helm.

Not going to happen. The numbers that Amazon has released so far, plus green lighting the second season before they’d even started marketing the first one indicates that they are very happy with the show and how Rafe is handling it. You don’t have to like what Rafe is doing, but insisting that he’s going to be fired any day now is a complete fantasy. You look very silly every time you say it. 

[phoenixtrinity]

It's been a long time since I've ruminated over WoT plot points and theorycrafting on these forums (about 10 years!), so sure, I'll throw in my two cents ?

 

I never thought a show based on the Wheel of Time would see the light of day. Years and years ago we all thought it would be stuck in development hell. I mean, does anyone here remember the abysmal adaption that was "The Winter Dragon"? So when I heard Amazon, of all corporations, was taking it over, I didn't know what to think.

 

To see an honest attempt at adapting this series to a multi-season show is honestly amazing to me. We could have been stuck with an Eragon-quality movie, or a Winter Dragon show, or a GoT rip-off. Yes it's not a 1:1 adaption, but did anyone really think it would be? Are there people who thought someone would spend mass amounts of money to turn the (arguably) LotR derivative Eye of the World 1:1 into Season 1 when even GoT, which was quite successful, was criticized by some for being too derivative? (Side note, it IS derivative of The Dragonbone Chair, but that's a whole other conversation).

 

Point is, despite the changes there is a lot the show does well, especially compared to what we could have gotten. I keep telling my husband that the clothing, colors, and sets are exactly how I imagined the WoT world. Most of the characters are how I imagined them and the changes made for them seem for good reason. For those saying this could be "any fantasy series if they just swapped the names of stuff", I disagree. It's the concepts behind the Wheel, the Dragon, the Ta'veren, etc that make this work.

 

Lastly, we all need to remember that Eye of the World was pretty generic. I almost didn't finish it when I first picked it up. Is it any wonder they're doing their best to make changes so random viewers don't think it's "LotR Lite" while maintaining the integrity of the book series?

[Gothic Flame]

Hmf...my bro was watching and that was my only connection to it. He up and said "no more." So... I'll keep tabs here but that's pretty much it.

[flinn]

15 hours ago, LordyLord said:

With episode 4 out now, we have officially seen half of the season.

 

My judgement is....Its average.Just average.

Which is worrying for me because I dont think Amazon will renew the show for season 3 if its average.Especially with how expensive it is.

 

The show trails behind GOT, Witcher, Shadow and Bone (Yes I said it). But it certainly is not terrible.

 

One on hand, I blame the averageness on the Show Runner's questionable decisions.On the other hand, EOTW is the most average and derivative of the books so its hard to adapt.

 

Overall I enjoy the show for what it is, but dont have hopes for its future.Which is sad. cause it could have been great

 It might be even with Shadow and Bone, but I dont think it is behind it. Witcher and GoT definitely have a leg up at this point though.

[Sabio]

It's good but not great, I might like it more if I hadn't read the books.

[Agitel]

29 minutes ago, flinn said:

 It might be even with Shadow and Bone, but I dont think it is behind it. Witcher and GoT definitely have a leg up at this point though.

 

I liked the Witcher and am excited for the next season, but I always said it felt very B Movie. And that's okay.

[CaddySedai]

This though is the way Amazon looked at this. It had - choices. 

 

A faithful series - geared at pleasing as many fans of the books as possible. Risky though as it is based on a beloved property that has a dedicated readerbase that was not exactly growing at the time they grabbed the property. Though if successful you would have that core base enthralled and hope to pick up new viewers although it may suffer the slog that happens when every line of a book is put directly into a show. 

 

An adaptation - using more modern storytelling methods. Trim the series, tweak events, shuffle characters motivations, remove some, add some. Risky because you will inevitably alienate many in the readership community. However if you keep the core of the stories intact you hope to retain a large chunk of that base. You seek to make it as “Big Tent” as possible. This strategy seeks a balance between making it accessible to new viewers and old readers. 

 

A series “based on” the Wheel of Time - Riskiest option. Either telling a story not outlined in the books. No Rand, nothing you knew. I ould be cool from a lore perspective (the Age of Legends) for example. That said if not handled correctly you could lose the readership group and with no books to back up - if viewers do want to learn more they really have nothing to go off of. This option tends to work best when you already have one of the other two in the pipe or having already come out (Amazon is doing this with LotR) 

 

They obviously felt that option B presented the most upside from a monetary perspective. They banked on the fact many in the book community would enjoy it. And that another group would complain but ultimately watch anyhow even if begrudgingly. They also adapted it in a way it’s accessible as a completely serviceable if not good TV fantasy. This option not only brings them the most money up front but ironically might result in the series having longer legs than a faithful reproduction.   

 

I would be CRUSHED if season 1 was a perfect retelling of EotW and then it got shitcanned for low viewership. Because as good as a series might seem - both Amazon and Netflix have shown unbelievable brutality to shows that do not line coffers. 

[CaddySedai]

And ultimately. Should the above do well enough to get deep into the books or dare I say - to the end. An argument could be made to film studios that the audience is there for a true movie series. 13 movies strong. Faithful like LotR. 

[DaddyFinn]

3 hours ago, phoenixtrinity said:

 

 

 

 

Lastly, we all need to remember that Eye of the World was pretty generic. I almost didn't finish it when I first picked it up. Is it any wonder they're doing their best to make changes so random viewers don't think it's "LotR Lite" while maintaining the integrity of the book series?

I've seen this already with the show. Had to tell them only the first half of book 1 holds resemblance to LotR and the story quickly becomes its own. So by the end of season 1 it should be completely WoT

[edman]

It's bizarre. But Aes Sedai would be proud with Amazon's claim that it's "based on the WoT series." It's technically true. 

Edited December 20, 2021 by edman
The show's become trash. Utter trash.

[Sabio]

Season 2 is already underway so even if viewership sucked a second season is still happening.

[lordofsoup]

I strongly dislike it, but can see why people like it.  I will not be continuing past episode 3, I'd spend the whole time looking for changes and it would make me sad.  Pretty much all the changes were unnecessary.  Why does Perrin have a wife?  Why are there 5 Ta'veren?  The Dragon is male.  He can touch Saidin.  Why is Perrin the only one of the 3 boys who resembles his book counterpart? 

Mat's father being an abusive drunk is such a pitiful attempt at unnecessary character development that I thought I had the misfortune of tuning into the CW.  I very much do not like when tv shows deviate from stories because the showrunners think they know better than the source.  Obviously some things need to be cut and changed but that doesn't mean that you need to create new arcs when you already need to cut so much.

[king of nowhere]

3 hours ago, phoenixtrinity said:

Lastly, we all need to remember that Eye of the World was pretty generic. I almost didn't finish it when I first picked it up. Is it any wonder they're doing their best to make changes so random viewers don't think it's "LotR Lite" while maintaining the integrity of the book series?

same here. i think the problem with crushed expectations is that a lot of people are comparing the tv show to the whole wot saga. but that's a wrong reference, the tv show is just the first episode, it should be compared to the eye of the world alone, which is much weaker.

 

19 minutes ago, edman said:

And if you're one to enjoy it, I'm glad for you and here's to hoping it entertains you through the end. But I'll still hold out for a more faithful adaptation down the road.

you know, i can line up behind this wish.

because it would mean we'd get an even longer adaptation.

 

the more episodes i'm watching, the more i realize time is a problem. we're already halfway through season 1, and we still are missing a lot of pieces, a lot of worldbuilding, a lot of character dynamics. despite the production cutting a lot of minor plots (and those they did add, they were added for show-not-tell reasons).

even the planned 64 hours will not be enough to do wot justice.

just compare the lotr extended edition, those were 11 hours of movie for a 1000 pages book - and it already cut several plots.

Wot is roughly 10000 pages, 10 times longer than lotr. and it must be adapted in 64 hours.

if for lotr you had 90 pages per hour of movie, here you have 160. they have to cut a lot more, and rearrange the plots that are left so that they can make sense - because there wasn't much stuff that you could cut in the original wot without repercussions later. there was no tom bombadil, conveniently disappearing from the plot so that you could just leave him out.

 

so, while i am liking this adaptation, i also see it's suffering from time issues. and if somebody started a more faithful adaptation, it would mean they'd have funding to actually make it. i'd go for it.

meanwhile, i think this wot is pretty good in its own right, and the best adaptation we could ever hope of realistically getting given practical constraints

[king of nowhere]

16 minutes ago, lordofsoup said:

 Obviously some things need to be cut and changed but that doesn't mean that you need to create new arcs when you already need to cut so much.

actually, it does.

once you cut hundreds of pages of perrin brooding in his own mind about not being a lord and being afraid of losing control, you have to get something else to convey the same conflict.

hence the dead wife. does a similar job, and only takes up 5 minutes of screen time.

similar reasons are behind practically every other change.

 

[ArrylT]

I certainly would have no objections to another adaptation down the road.   However in order for that to occur then this adaptation needs to be considered a (financial) success.  

 

Or I suppose a WOT fan wins $150 million and decides to spend the entirety of their fortune on a new adaptation. 

 

But the only way, imho, things like the new LOTR show, Dune,  (and the Hobbit before it) and the GOT prequel coming up occur are because of the success of their respective franchises.   So THIS adaptation needs to drive enough success to keep the franchise going - either by a lengthy run, or by driving a new wave of book sales.  

 

So, and this may sound counter-intuitive, but even if you as a person do not like this show, the more you can to do drive the franchise, the greater the odds down the line that a reboot, remake or completely new adaptation will occur.

 

It does not need to be said though that there is nothing wrong with disliking this show and keeping to your own interpretation of the WOT Books.  

 

[CaddySedai]

45 minutes ago, lordofsoup said:

I strongly dislike it, but can see why people like it.  I will not be continuing past episode 3.

 

Thank you for seeing how others can like it - and for giving it a shot ?

 

Glad to have you here and feel free to revel in the books side of the site...or..the books 99% of the site I should say hehe.

 

9 minutes ago, ArrylT said:

Or I suppose a WOT fan wins $150 million and decides to spend the entirety of their fortune on a new adaptation. 

 

I promise that if I hit the powerball when its in the 250 million range...

 

You wont be getting a faithful series. I'll be happy to give you a mobile game tho :P. A faithful mobile game ?

[lordofsoup]

37 minutes ago, king of nowhere said:

once you cut hundreds of pages of perrin brooding in his own mind about not being a lord and being afraid of losing control, you have to get something else to convey the same conflict.

hence the dead wife. does a similar job, and only takes up 5 minutes of screen time.

 

I disagree.  I think that just means that they are cutting things that they shouldn't be cutting and making unnecessary changes.  If I enjoyed that sort of thing I would read fanfiction.

Characters should have a purpose.  It is bad writing to create a character who has emotional value to a main character only to kill them off.  And as much as I hate reducing everything to tropes, killing off the blank wife is lame.

 

14 minutes ago, CaddySedai said:

Glad to have you here and feel free to revel in the books side of the site...or..the books 99% of the site I should say hehe.

My last post before tonight was like 2013 or something.  I wouldn't count on it ?

 

[CaddySedai]

13 minutes ago, Dead Warder said:

With all due respect, I'll be bold here and say that this might present a high risk for those that dislike the show.

 

If there was only one brand of wet cat food on the market, should those that are opposed to it keep shelling money into it in hopes that, in spiking up sales, another company will develop a competitive line of wet cat food?

 

Fair but I think the comparison might be a bit off there. This is more like. There are 10 brands of cat food on the market (books) Everyone in the world owns cats AND dogs and have noted that all the others have dog food (television or movies) made from the same preferred provider. One brand for both animals. We however only get cat food and have to rely on other brands. Finally after 20+ years the brand we love comes out with a dog food.

 

Some dogs LOVE it. Some are ok with it. Some hate it.

 

Should those that hate it boycott it hoping that THIS is the trigger for a reformulation? Would that alienate the first two groups? Uncertain.

 

Should they force their dogs to eat it? No. If it does not work for you don't do it. That simple. Same here. You hate it don't watch it. Just don't also poison the well for the other two groups.

 

Should the other groups keep their mouth shut about what they dislike and only say what's good? That...would definitely keep the food on the market but could actually stagnate improvement.  And we want improvement. With the series, and hopefully future offerings.

 

--------------------------

 

So in a nutshell. With WoTPrime - If you like it - say you like it but unless you love every single thing then do not be dishonest with yourself and others. Proper constructive feedback may still influence the future offerings. And showing that true LOVE for the property can go towards potentially showing future companies interest in making ANOTHER "food" for your dogs. hehe.

 

If you are in the middle. Really the same goes for you. Speak up for what is good. Point out what you have issue with.

 

And if you hate it - the good news is you still have the most legendary Books to sit back and read and discuss. And hell feel free to be involved here too. Be constructive though! Honestly your love for the book lore is invaluable in discussions of what is different. What is the same. etc. Your vibrance is part of the best WoT community on the internet.

 

3 minutes ago, lordofsoup said:

My last post before tonight was like 2013 or something.  I wouldn't count on it ?

 

 

Though I would point out that you came back and posted for the first time since 2013 soooo. ? Weirder things have happened.

[CaddySedai]

1 minute ago, Dead Warder said:

That's alot for my little brain to unpack, but first run through makes sense. I will meditate upon this.

 

Oh you may need to self translate. My ADD sometimes lets my brain set fingers aflight before forming a coherent thought lol.

[ArrylT]

16 minutes ago, Dead Warder said:

With all due respect, I'll be bold here and say that this might present a high risk for those that dislike the show.

 

If there was only one brand of wet cat food on the market, should those that are opposed to it keep shelling money into it in hopes that, in spiking up sales, another company will develop a competitive line of wet cat food?

 

You strike out 100% of the time if you don't take any swings.

 

Anyways I am not meaning to say watch the show, or even their associated merch, if a person doesn't like it, rather @CaddySedai best expresses my intention, which may have been poorly expressed in some ways.

 

There are other ways to interact and keep ones interest in the franchise alive even if one does not like or want to watch the show,  and those efforts could be key down the road if someone is hoping for a 2nd adaptation.

[king of nowhere]

7 hours ago, lordofsoup said:

 

I disagree.  I think that just means that they are cutting things that they shouldn't be cutting and making unnecessary changes.  If I enjoyed that sort of thing I would read fanfiction.

Characters should have a purpose.  It is bad writing to create a character who has emotional value to a main character only to kill them off.  And as much as I hate reducing everything to tropes, killing off the blank wife is lame.

 

Your definition of "unnecessary" changes means: every change that you, personally, didn't like.

Look, I didn't like the whole laila business either. I agree that killing off the wife is lame.

But I can see why they did it, and I can see the constrains they were under.

Sanderson, who's a great storyteller and understand this sort of things, suggested they had perrin kill someone else. meaning that sanderson himself agreed with the "perrin accidentally kill somebody" to condense his inner conflict, he merely disagreed with the execution.