Trailer Drops Tomorrow

[king of nowhere]

there's to keep in mind the difference between changing the story, and showing stuff that in books happened in background, without changing the story.

 

showing the aes sedai capture logain is not changing the story. it was in the books, it just gets focus. Bring some of the protagonists there, this changes the story. moiraine and lan fighting in emond field was not shown in the books, but it happened. whatever initiation is going on with egwene, didn't.

 

oh, we may also include showing stuff at different times. it would be the case if we get shown new spring material, that happened in the books, but that as readers we wouldn't see until much later.

[CaddySedai]

Well to an extent that is true. Just because we never read of an initiation like that doesn’t necessarily mean it never happened. 

 

I would argue that edits or revamps may be possible without changing the overall arc of the story. 

 

And for cinematic purposes it may be necessary to flesh out or change elements to improve visual flow. 

 

The struggle I have is if you change a key part. So if thats some kind of wisdom initiation that foreshadows her Tower initiation - thats all well and good and fleshes out and expands the wisdom aspect that didn’t get a ton of play. 

 

If however that is her tower initiation and exists INSTEAD of the Silver Arches… thats a more drastic and in my opinion tragic change. 

 

So really its too early to speculate what happens. Is it unrelated foreshadowing? Dunno. Is it replacing? Dunno. Is it part of but not replacing - instead supplementing? Dunno. 

 

Thats sorta the issue with us getting all worked into a tizzy over a Teaser which provides little overall context because that is not the purpose of a teaser. 

[Thrasymachus]

1 hour ago, johnnysd said:

 

I realize you have been setting yourself up to hate the series no matter what but seriously that is the extent of your feedback?

I was rather looking forward to it, until I saw what they were doing with it.  And what it was doing to fellow fans, or perhaps what it reveals about them.

[Elder_Haman]

1 hour ago, Thrasymachus said:

And what it was doing to fellow fans, or perhaps what it reveals about them.

Okay, I’ll bite. 
What is it doing to and/or revealing about the fans?

[DojoToad]

7 hours ago, Elder_Haman said:

Okay, I’ll bite. 
What is it doing to and/or revealing about the fans?

Let me guess - something negative and/or condescending...

[Agitel]

10 hours ago, CaddySedai said:

Well to an extent that is true. Just because we never read of an initiation like that doesn’t necessarily mean it never happened. 

 

I would argue that edits or revamps may be possible without changing the overall arc of the story. 

 

And for cinematic purposes it may be necessary to flesh out or change elements to improve visual flow. 

 

The struggle I have is if you change a key part. So if thats some kind of wisdom initiation that foreshadows her Tower initiation - thats all well and good and fleshes out and expands the wisdom aspect that didn’t get a ton of play. 

 

If however that is her tower initiation and exists INSTEAD of the Silver Arches… thats a more drastic and in my opinion tragic change. 

 

So really its too early to speculate what happens. Is it unrelated foreshadowing? Dunno. Is it replacing? Dunno. Is it part of but not replacing - instead supplementing? Dunno. 

 

Thats sorta the issue with us getting all worked into a tizzy over a Teaser which provides little overall context because that is not the purpose of a teaser. 

 

I may be misremembering, but the Silver Arches were part of her test to be raised from Novice to Accepted. I don't think we ever see any ceremony related to becoming a Novice. Some people (me included) think that scene from the trailer with her rising up in the pool of colors is a ceremony for entering the Tower to become a Novice, which still leaves the Silver Arches as something for later. I think it'll actually be the climax/end of Egwene's personal arc for the season, since the first season will supposedly adapt all of EotW and the beginning of TGH.

Edited September 10, 2021 by Agitel

[SinisterDeath]

34 minutes ago, Agitel said:

 

I may be misremembering, but the Silver Arches were part of her test to be raised from Novice to Accepted. I don't think we ever see any ceremony related to becoming a Novice. Some people (me included) think that scene from the trailer with her rising up in the pool of colors is a ceremony for entering the Tower to become a Novice, which still leaves the Silver Arches as something for later. I think it'll actually be the climax/end of Egwene's personal arc for the season, since the first season will supposedly adapt all of EotW and the beginning of TGH.

I heard a theory (From LezbiNerdy?) that her getting pushed into the river & rising from pool ARE what happen in the silver arches.

 

I like that theory. It merges her foretelling ability, dreaming, and allows characters from her past/present/future to be there.

[Elder_Haman]

I don’t think it has anything to do with the Tower. I think it’s an initiation for becoming a Wisdom. 

[Guest Wolfbrother31]

1 hour ago, Agitel said:

 

I may be misremembering, but the Silver Arches were part of her test to be raised from Novice to Accepted. I don't think we ever see any ceremony related to becoming a Novice. Some people (me included) think that scene from the trailer with her rising up in the pool of colors is a ceremony for entering the Tower to become a Novice, which still leaves the Silver Arches as something for later. I think it'll actually be the climax/end of Egwene's personal arc for the season, since the first season will supposedly adapt all of EotW and the beginning of TGH.

 

I totally agree with this...

And you're not misremembering; they test women to see if they're strong enough to be a novice, their isn't a novice initiation. 

 

27 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

I don’t think it has anything to do with the Tower. I think it’s an initiation for becoming a Wisdom. 

 

I think that you're right about the being pushed into the water & floating down the river. 

 

But I'm convinced the coming out of the pool is a different scene [there's boots - women standing round - and there's the 7 Ajah colors in the water. 

[Elder_Haman]

1 hour ago, Wolfbrother31 said:

But I'm convinced the coming out of the pool is a different scene [there's boots - women standing round - and there's the 7 Ajah colors in the water

 

I feel you. But...

 

 

 

You can see the colors on her dress when she is pushed from the cliff. The colors are in roughly the same place on her body as they were in the pool. To me, it looks like Egwene's dress is already wet when Nyn pushes her.

 

Egwene's hair is unbraided in the pool shot, but braided when she goes off the cliff. Here's my take:

 

There's a women's circle initiation that takes place at some sort of sacred hot springs. The colors are given some other significance (you know, like 'white for the innocents you pledge to protect, green for the crops that sustain us, etc.'). Following that ritual, Nynaeve takes her to the top of the cliff while she explains how to 'listen to the wind' and the importance of being able to surrender.

 

I think the major purpose here is to explain these concepts early and to weave the concept of saidar into the story immediately. It will also help to serve some other "show don't tell" purposes, like: establishing that the matriarchy exists independent of the White Tower; giving us a glimpse into Two Rivers customs and belief systems; establishing what a Wisdom is (and here, I think we are going to learn that Wisdoms do not marry or have kids); and it will give us some glimpses of Nynaeve that focus on her protectiveness, compassion, and leadership rather than on her being shrill and violent.

 

We'll find out in 69 days!

[king of nowhere]

2 hours ago, Elder_Haman said:

 

I feel you. But...

 

 

 

You can see the colors on her dress when she is pushed from the cliff. The colors are in roughly the same place on her body as they were in the pool. To me, it looks like Egwene's dress is already wet when Nyn pushes her.

 

Egwene's hair is unbraided in the pool shot, but braided when she goes off the cliff. Here's my take:

 

 

true about the colors.

on the down side, egwene has hairs unbraided. in the two rivers, every woman braids her hair as a coming of age. egwene, as an adult, should have her hair braided. she unbraids her hair later, when she goes out of the two rivers, as a symbol that she doesn't want to go back. if it's a ceremony in the two rivers, it makes no sense for her to be unbraided.

of course, they could have changed that part about two river culture.

it's also possible it's part of some vision, where the braid has a special significance.

[Elder_Haman]

2 minutes ago, king of nowhere said:

if it's a ceremony in the two rivers, it makes no sense for her to be unbraided.

It makes perfect sense.

 

2 minutes ago, king of nowhere said:

in the two rivers, every woman braids her hair as a coming of age.

Before the color pool ceremony, she is not a woman. After the color pool ceremony, she has become a woman, so they braid her hair. The cliff pushing is unrelated to becoming a woman - it's about becoming a Wisdom.

[king of nowhere]

1 minute ago, Elder_Haman said:

It makes perfect sense.

 

Before the color pool ceremony, she is not a woman. After the color pool ceremony, she has become a woman, so they braid her hair. The cliff pushing is unrelated to becoming a woman - it's about becoming a Wisdom.

so, sort of like a ceremony that symbolizes her rebirth, where she starts by unbraiding her hair as a symbol?

could be. it probably is.

by the way, egwene is not a Wisdom, she's still an apprentice, so it's not a ceremony to becoming a wisdom, but perhaphs related - a ceremony for apprenticeship, or for reaching a certain stage in training.

 

in any case, it's very likely something we'll see early on in the first episode, to introduce some worldbuilding elements in an indirect way.

i hope it won't mean nynaeve will be aware that she can channel. but she can still have the ceremony and the whole surrendering part while having lost its meaning.

[Elder_Haman]

14 minutes ago, king of nowhere said:

i hope it won't mean nynaeve will be aware that she can channel. but she can still have the ceremony and the whole surrendering part while having lost its meaning.

Yeah. I agree with this.

[Guest Wolfbrother31]

I still think these scenes are all cut up and pasted together - Even upon looking closer I think it's a stretch to say the colors are there when she's pushed off the waterfall. If so, they're majorly faded, which why? Though - it does seem to be a very similar dress so I'm not ruling it out...I just don't like it if that's what they're doing. 

 

(Kudos to Mady Madd for doing that stunt herself by the way)

 

Anybody got a good theory on why Moiraine is being healed by Karene? At first I thought - injured capturing Logain in a flashback episode - but that doesn't actually fit because I'm 95% sure that Karene is going to die capturing Logain. 

 

Also, if you freeze frame at 1:17...the Trollocs look SO good!

Edited September 10, 2021 by Wolfbrother31

[Skipp]

I would highly suggest people watch Unraveling the Pattern's youtube video he put out yesterday.  He did an excellent job of piecing together the order of the trailer using some of the leaked audition scripts we got last year.  Was an excellent watch.  Not sure about posting links on this forum but a quick search on youtube should bring it up.

[Elgee]

7 hours ago, Elder_Haman said:

I don’t think it has anything to do with the Tower. I think it’s an initiation for becoming a Wisdom. 

 

I really hope you're wrong about this. Expanding the whole "becoming a wisdom" thing to this degree seems a bit pointless to me.

[Elder_Haman]

3 minutes ago, Elgee said:

I really hope you're wrong about this. Expanding the whole "becoming a wisdom" thing to this degree seems a bit pointless to me.

It will serve a narrative function - I think mostly around Nynaeve. It's going to give them a chance to introduce her character, what Wisdoms are, why she has authority, etc. I think it could be good, it's just a matter of writing and execution.

[Elgee]

BTW, made my boss watch the trailer on her huge tv today. She's intrigued. Man, it looks good on a big tv!

[Guest Wolfbrother31]

56 minutes ago, Skipp said:

I would highly suggest people watch Unraveling the Pattern's youtube video he put out yesterday.  He did an excellent job of piecing together the order of the trailer using some of the leaked audition scripts we got last year.  Was an excellent watch.  Not sure about posting links on this forum but a quick search on youtube should bring it up.

 

They did this on the Dusty Wheel as well. But I'm pretty confident they're wrong about a couple things. Mostly right though. 

 

The Egwene pool scene is one that I'm convinced is tied to the Tower and probably in the last episode. 

[CaddySedai]

Either way. Would be nice for them maybe to mention WHY men who have the power need to be feared too. XD. Not necessarily mentioning the taint but let people know the evils of male channelers. 

 

In a world, broken by men wielding the One Power. 

 

heheh

[CaddySedai]

Expanding on that…

 

Its not the way trailers are made anymore but man WoT is built for the moviephone guy lol. 

[Thrasymachus]

19 hours ago, Elder_Haman said:

Okay, I’ll bite. 
What is it doing to and/or revealing about the fans?

It's made them uncritical of the art, but ready to condemn any who is, or who simply doesn't care for it as a matter of taste.  It makes them defensive and insulting over matters of taste, and demanding and dismissive of those who differ.  It makes them take wild flights of speculative fancy to apologize for, excuse and even exalt blatant deviations and excisions and the excessive creative license this show has taken, that we know of, and be unable to see how patently absurd such speculation is, often especially if to turns out to be true.  It has made them personally invested in the possibility of this show's success, and thus intolerant of anybody who could justly see this as an unwarranted hijacking of a story and characters and costumes and accessories they grew up with and invested in.  And of course most humorously, it has made them hypocritically unaware of their own changing standards and hopes, as more and more has come out showing just how far different what they are going to be giving us really is from what those hopes and lines-in-the-sand were 5 years ago.

 

I saw that trailer and I was left wondering just what it would take for some of you to say, "Enough is enough, this isn't the Wheel of Time." I'm convinced that for at least some of you, there's no articulable limit, and I have been convinced of that for some time.  It's why, more than just thinking that this show will likely be an hilariously expensive failure, I actually hope it is.  Because otherwise, the book fandom will be forever divided into those who liked the tv show, and those who hate it for changing as much as they could just to sell out, and they will be forever sniping at one another, just like is beginning to happen these past few months to now.

Edited September 10, 2021 by Thrasymachus

[Elder_Haman]

2 minutes ago, Thrasymachus said:

It makes them defensive and insulting over matters of taste, and demanding and dismissive of those who differ.

It seems to me that most of the insults over matters of taste have been directed toward people who are more ... open minded ... about the adaptation, not the other way around. 

 

3 minutes ago, Thrasymachus said:

intolerant of anybody who could justly see this as an unwarranted hijacking of a story and characters and costumes and accessories they grew up with and invested in.

I'm not sure I've seen this. What I have seen is people say that the artistic changes aren't important to them when considering whether they like the adaptation.

 

4 minutes ago, Thrasymachus said:

I saw that trailer and I was left wondering just what it would take for some of you to say, "Enough is enough, this isn't the Wheel of Time."

Certainly more than 2 minutes of unconnected visuals. 

 

5 minutes ago, Thrasymachus said:

It's why, more than just thinking that this show will likely be an hilariously expensive failure, I actually hope it is.

That's been clear from the beginning. You've been rooting for failure since the very first teaser was released. Unfortunately, with the trailer having been viewed over 10 million times and counting, it seems like the show will garner a fairly significant viewership for at least the first three episodes.

 

7 minutes ago, Thrasymachus said:

the book fandom will be forever divided into those who liked the tv show, and those who hate it for changing as much as they could just to sell out

This was probably inevitable.

 

I just don't understand why some people want so badly to crap on this show. I'm sorry that the artwork offends you. I quite like it. The fact that it is different from the books doesn't bother me.

And no one has been able to explain to me why the cosmetic changes matter to the story.

 

I am still going to get to see one of my favorite series of all time visualized in a high budget TV show. I'm sorry you can't get excited about that.

[CaddySedai]

All valid observations. Some might argue the opposite as well. That over-criticality can doom the series as well. That because the show would not be lock-step with the novels it would be better to atrophy as a fanbase. 

 

Honestly I would love a fanbase that had show proponents, book proponents, people who like both for what they are. When the AoL movies come out people who have feelings towards them too. 

 

Ive lived this argument several times across multiple different fanbases. I saw this exact argument with LOTR. Saw it even more knives out with Star Wars (theres actually several groups there. Some love all SW. Some hate the prequels. Some hate Disney’s attempts. Some pretend 4,5,6 is still all that exists. and all shades between)

 

What hurts me personally is seeing some of our fans actually wishing failure on the property. I remember joining DM back in 98 and having tons of friends on here. Hundreds active at all times. Forums flying faster than you could keep up with. 

 

And yes the internet has changed and I acknowledge that even if the show does GoT level stuff we will never be THAT DM anymore. But Blood and Ashes I want new blood here. I want people to enjoy the show. Become interested in the series. And read the series TOO. There is absolutely no reason the show and books have to be mutually exclusive. 

 

I want new video games. I want new things! Sadly our beloved author isn't with us anymore to expand on the glorious world he laid out. It falls on others to carry the torch but truly… would one wish the collapse of the first true attempt to bring our stories to a new medium for better or worse just to preserve some form of purity?

 

It is a false argument anyhow, the existence of a series - no matter how tight or wide it adheres to the novels in no way erases them, no way changes them, in no way cheapens their value in the literary world. 

 

Did the Wheel of Time video game in any way break the books? It did not. It only deepened my love of the series. And one could argue that the game had… almost zero to do with anything we know. Because it was a portal stone world. 

 

I would say the happy medium lies between both sides… but I know me personally - I could never wish failure. That will be the death of us as a fanbase. We will lose it. Probably lose the Age of Legends because of “lack of interest in the property”. And there will be no NEW books so, if we want to continue loving and enjoying more Wheel, I choose to embrace it in all forms. 

 

Here is to us drinking and watching the Hubcap of Time in twelve years. A spinoff of course. Animated. 

Edited September 10, 2021 by CaddySedai
typo.