What are they doing to Canon?

[TamSwordsman]

I'm halfway through S2Ep3...and I'm disgusted...

 

This Rafe bloke is destroying books I deeply love.

 

There is simply no purpose to so many of his/the producers changes.

 

This is truly "inspired by" or "based on"...in the most loosely applicable sense.

 

They are literally taking themes from the books and creating their own story...a story that doesn't even remotely follow details and plot lines accurately.

 

I get that at times Jordan was verbose and that there must be some changes in any adaptation...but the things that are true to the books are occasional homage and by far in the minority. 

 

What do others think???

[WheelofJuke]

2 hours ago, TamSwordsman said:

I'm halfway through S2Ep3...and I'm disgusted...

 

This Rafe bloke is destroying books I deeply love.

 

There is simply no purpose to so many of his/the producers changes.

 

This is truly "inspired by" or "based on"...in the most loosely applicable sense.

 

They are literally taking themes from the books and creating their own story...a story that doesn't even remotely follow details and plot lines accurately.

 

I get that at times Jordan was verbose and that there must be some changes in any adaptation...but the things that are true to the books are occasional homage and by far in the minority. 

 

What do others think???

If it bothers you, stop watching. 

I don't think I'm going to watch S2. Maybe later this winter if I get really bored. But right now I'd rather keep the novels pure in my mind rather than having a half-baked adaptation spoil things. 🙂

YMMV. 

[DojoToad]

Welcome to the party.  Some think very much like you, others the opposite and some trying to ride the fence.

 

Personally, I lean more toward that Rafe is making unneeded changes.  Haven't watched S2 yet, but from S1 I liked some changes: Mat's family having Coplin/Congar type problems, Logain being introduced early, Moiraine using the inn to crush trollocs...

 

Others I can't get on board with: Ninja Nynaeve, untrained (or minimally trained) channelers pulling off the miraculous, Perrin's wife, Borderlanders being suspicious of Aes Sedai, etc...

[king of nowhere]

I watched S2, and I'd say that the changes are much less than you make them. Most things from the books are still there, rearranged into slightly different shapes.

I think i need spoilers for the new episodes for a few days at least?
 

Spoiler

- moiraine is studying with brown sisters to try and figure out what comes next, like in the books. she get ambushed by shadowspawn.

the one thingannoying me in that plot is that lan didn't give a better showing with the sword, he lookd mediocre or good at best. thom put up a better fight.

- perrin is chasing the horn of valere with the shienarans, like in the books. until he stumbles on the seanchan, like in the books.

- rand has been seduced by "selene" and is about to get involved into cahirienin politics by accident

- egwene being a good student in the tower

- nynaeve being a bad student in the tower, too stubborn to overcome her block

- mat captured and kept a "guest" in the tower

- min also kept a "guest" in the tower because of her powers

 

sure, they changed all the details. well, after season 1 ended with mat leaving early because of undisclosed issues and rand presumed dead by the others, they already departed a lot from the books. Actually, I am surprised they managed to put everyone back on track for their personal arcs so smoothly.

Also, the characters are right. Look at nynaeve drinking the filthy water to avoid having to try and overcome her block, and tell me she's not the same in the books. elayne got me with her attitude near the end of episode 3. the other characters also feel right. they are acting very much like their books counterparts. even bayle domon felt right, despite the lack of aged grandmothers

 

so, the way I see it, it's the same characters having the same general plot with completely different details. that's as close to the books as I ever expected it could be.

and after all they changed in season 1 - which they can't go back and undo - and all those changes will have ripple consequences that cannot be ignored - I don't see how they could have come any closer to the books in this season

[DigificWriter]

They're not 'doing' anything to the 'canon'; this adaptation has zero effect whatsoever on the existence of the novels, the way the story is told in them, or one's access to or ability to enjoy them.

 

If you don't like the television series and the way it's retelling the story, don't watch it.

[Mirefox]

1 hour ago, DigificWriter said:

They're not 'doing' anything to the 'canon'; this adaptation has zero effect whatsoever on the existence of the novels, the way the story is told in them, or one's access to or ability to enjoy them.

 

If you don't like the television series and the way it's retelling the story, don't watch it.

What a disingenuous take.  You as a supposed writer should know that there is a lot more to a story than just the major plot points and Proper Nouns.  Stories have themes and tones; characters likewise have tones as well as motivations and personalities.  This series is not a retelling, it is a rewriting.  This series isn’t thing the same story but with a different narrative voice: this series is reworking the story and altering tone, motivations, personalities all to suit the whims of the writers while leaving major plot points and Proper Nouns intact to piggyback off a a higher caliber work.

 

That said, I do agree that this show doesn’t change cannon and doesn’t change my perceptions of the books.  What is does is bastardize the books and, unfortunately, makes millions of viewers who haven’t read the books see Jordan’s world very differently than it was originally written by the original author.

[DigificWriter]

2 minutes ago, Mirefox said:

What a disingenuous take.  You as a supposed writer should know that there is a lot more to a story than just the major plot points and Proper Nouns.  Stories have themes and tones; characters likewise have tones as well as motivations and personalities.  This series is not a retelling, it is a rewriting.  This series isn’t thing the same story but with a different narrative voice: this series is reworking the story and altering tone, motivations, personalities all to suit the whims of the writers while leaving major plot points and Proper Nouns intact to piggyback off a a higher caliber work.

 

That said, I do agree that this show doesn’t change cannon and doesn’t change my perceptions of the books.  What is does is bastardize the books and, unfortunately, makes millions of viewers who haven’t read the books see Jordan’s world very differently than it was originally written by the original author.

 

 

I may not personally be a fan of the novels, but there are a number of others who are fans (die-hard fans at that) who recognize and have accepted the TV series for the retelling that it is, and there's absolutely nothing disingenuous about that.

[SinisterDeath]

35 minutes ago, Mirefox said:

What a disingenuous take.  You as a supposed writer should know that there is a lot more to a story than just the major plot points and Proper Nouns.  Stories have themes and tones; characters likewise have tones as well as motivations and personalities.  This series is not a retelling, it is a rewriting.  This series isn’t thing the same story but with a different narrative voice: this series is reworking the story and altering tone, motivations, personalities all to suit the whims of the writers while leaving major plot points and Proper Nouns intact to piggyback off a a higher caliber work.

Yes. Stories have themes and tones, and they are generally keeping those same themes and tones in the show.

 

Uno for instance, swore a lot, and had a big mouth that would get him in trouble.
They kept with that theme. He swore a lot and it got him in trouble, which lead to him having a big mouth.

[DaddyFinn]

11 minutes ago, SinisterDeath said:

Yes. Stories have themes and tones, and they are generally keeping those same themes and tones in the show.

 

Uno for instance, swore a lot, and had a big mouth that would get him in trouble.
They kept with that theme. He swore a lot and it got him in trouble, which lead to him having a big mouth.

 

 

He bit more than he could chew

[Storeebooq]

As a die hard absolutely total freaking nerd for the books that I've re-read more times than I usually ever admit to others lest I show how much of a freaking NERD I am.....it did take me a minute to settle down and accept the show's plot. But I have, and I love it, and I'm here for it. 

 

Even the moments where I disagree with what they did (Uno for example)...I understand the reasoning and why. I'm letting this version of the story grow in my mind alongside the book story.  They are different, but similar, and that seems to oddly flesh out the world even more for me. 

 

I'm also enjoying the more current and modern take on relationships in the show. As I grew up, it got harder to take RJ's take on some of the relationships seriously. And his heteronormative view (bless his heart) is outdated. So, it's nice to have a more current version to go alongside canon as well. 

 

 

[Agitel]

I haven't seen any of S2 yet, might start in a moment. But I'm going to harp on there being only 64 episodes (optimistically) to tell the whole story, which means conveying the same motifs and general arc outlines of the sprawling book story (in which a significant amount is told through character's internal thoughts) in a relatively very short run time. And this means recapitulating all of the feels, lore, and development into different scenes which make the same point even if entirely original, and sometimes points that were spread out across different books and scenes all need to be made within the same TV scene.

 

The writing decisions ultimately fall on Rafe, but there is a hard truth that this adaptation has to be planned as shorter than it would need to be to have very high fidelity to the books. That's just the reality of the situation, and a constraint Rafe needs to work within.

 

I'd love a more shot for shot version, but this is what we get at this time.

 

And just because what I wrote in my first paragraph is true, it doesn't of course mean the execution will be good. The actual execution is a whole different kettle of fish.

Edited September 1, 2023 by Agitel

[Skipp]

51 minutes ago, SinisterDeath said:

Yes. Stories have themes and tones, and they are generally keeping those same themes and tones in the show.

 

Uno for instance, swore a lot, and had a big mouth that would get him in trouble.
They kept with that theme. He swore a lot and it got him in trouble, which lead to him having a big mouth.

to soon

[SinisterDeath]

3 minutes ago, Skipp said:

to soon

[Elder_Haman]

Can we please not do the tired: "this is a bastardization of everything RJ stood for, he would be rolling in his grave!" "No! This show is the most faithful adaptation of anything ever!" "No, it's not because [my politics]" "Yes it is, because [MY politics]." thing anymore?

 

It is so. bleeding. tiresome.

 

Talk about the specific things you did and didn't like and why without resorting to all of the over-the-top language and chest-beating. We can have nuanced discussions. Really, we can. Just take a breath, stop catastrophizing everything, and try to talk about specifics.

 

[Cipher]

11 hours ago, TamSwordsman said:

I'm halfway through S2Ep3...and I'm disgusted...

 

This Rafe bloke is destroying books I deeply love.

 

There is simply no purpose to so many of his/the producers changes.

 

This is truly "inspired by" or "based on"...in the most loosely applicable sense.

 

They are literally taking themes from the books and creating their own story...a story that doesn't even remotely follow details and plot lines accurately.

 

I get that at times Jordan was verbose and that there must be some changes in any adaptation...but the things that are true to the books are occasional homage and by far in the minority. 

 

What do others think???

Uh oh.  I haven’t watched yet, but when I watched the S2 trailer I thought, “I have a bad feeling about this.”

 

I will watch, but I give myself permission to stop before end of episode 3.

[Samt]

46 minutes ago, Cipher said:

Uh oh.  I haven’t watched yet, but when I watched the S2 trailer I thought, “I have a bad feeling about this.”

 

I will watch, but I give myself permission to stop before end of episode 3.

I've gotten through the first 2 episodes and at this point it's pretty clear that this isn't really the same story or characters as the books and that the creators have no real interest in bringing it back on track.  That said, it may be a decent show.  

 

I'm asking myself if I'm actually interesting in watching something that isn't the Wheel of Time in any real way and I'm not sure.  

[DigificWriter]

2 minutes ago, Samt said:

at this point it's pretty clear that this isn't really the same story or characters as the books

 

According to you.

 

I can think of several die-hard book fans who would dispute that assertion.

[Samt]

36 minutes ago, DigificWriter said:

 

According to you.

 

I can think of several die-hard book fans who would dispute that assertion.

My opinions are my opinions.  I award you 23 points for stating the obvious.

[Sabio]

I always put things into two area, changes needed to speed up the pace/needed changes or changes tossed in for what seems like just to change something.  Like in season 1, for such a limited amount of episodes, there was no reason to have them journey to White bridge and all those other places.  So easier to condense it all into meeting in Tar Valon.  That's cool, you can understand that.  Junk changes are like spending all that time in season 1 to show the warder bond and it's effects and just kill him at the end.  After focusing so much on him.  Seems like a lot of wasted time that could have been done in a simpler manner.  Like having him go berserk and crazy, but they wasted their limited time to drag it out.

[Lightfriendsocialmistress]

10 hours ago, Sabio said:

there was no reason to have them journey to White

I hear what you’re saying, and I hope you have a sense of humor, but forgive me for being a see you next Tuesday because I can’t help myself, …there was clearly not NO reason according to the folks who actually had the balls to give it a go 

[Agitel]

I just had a thought to put it in perspective about how Rafe needs to tell this story in a shorter run time than would be required for a high fidelity adaptation of the books.

 

Adapting WoT in 6-8 seasons is like adapting ASoIaF in 3-4 seasons. Imagine the amount of interpretation and adaptation that would be required to have made that work.

[Scarloc99]

Ok a die hard book fan who has read the series many many times since the the late 90’s and, I love the first 3 episodes of season 3. There is plenty of the original story there and, the way this story is being told in many ways I think is better than the original 3 books. The same themes are all there, the same character journeys are all going on with the same development. The production levels and effects are far far better than season 1, the acting and dialogue is better. I loved the Rand Logain scenes, the tower scenes, everything is just much crisper, the fight choreography is cleaner and it just feels like the show the books deserve instead of the Shannara fiasco the first season felt like. 
 

Now onto “canon” you might not like this but I have always said the first 3 books would make an awful tv series or movie if filmed as written. The story of books 1-3 is basically the main characters traveling from A to B chasing down some mcguffin, and then onto C after losing said Mcguffin. Really until the end of book 3 for me wheel of time was always a mediocre fantasy series that ripped off LOTR and other fantasy stories, and there are reasons for that. I really love the changes that are being made, and think some of them are better than choices RJ made in the books. The core of the WOT mythology is all there and if you consider a story to be the characters emotional journey then the same story is being told, in a format that makes it great for both TV and the limited time available. 
 

So far season 2 for me is a massive success and I will put my “hardcore book lover credentials” up against anyone (I won’t that is a really dumb badge to wear lol). 
 

 

[bringbackthomsmoustache]

On 9/1/2023 at 3:18 PM, king of nowhere said:

the one thingannoying me in that plot is that lan didn't give a better showing with the sword, he lookd mediocre or good at best. thom put up a better fight.

He comes very close to defeating 2 Fades at once (in darkness where they can use their shadowstep freely) - his achievement of actually beating 2 at once in the last book was clearly recognised by all those who saw it as a near superhuman achievement (and he had spent much of the preceding year in intensive sword training).  He also demonstrates the level of commitment he summed up in the prequel "the time to quit is after you are dead".

[DaddyFinn]

Fades became cannon fodder along with trollocs and regular soldiers had no problem with them at the end. 

Spoiler

Talmanes

alone killed several fades while being mortally wounded

[Scarloc99]

4 hours ago, DaddyFinn said:

Fades became cannon fodder along with trollocs and regular soldiers had no problem with them at the end. 

  Hide contents

Talmanes

alone killed several fades while being mortally wounded

To be fair he points out that one way of beating a fade is to already be dying so you don’t need to avoid a nick or cut. 
 

Sword fighting in WOT seems to expect you will get cut up even if you win, if an enemy blade kills even with a non lethal nick then it becomes harder to fight them. 
 

Having said that until that moment in MOL fades go from the dark lords crack assassin type monsters to a bit of a laughing stock who can be killed easily by Aiel, Wolves, a 2 rivers man with a bow and arrow and in dying always take a load of trollocs with them.