What are they doing to Canon?

[Scarloc99]

@Storeebooq To be fair to RJ it is BS who screwed up Thom and Morraine, He also suddenly made Thom an overpowered crazy man who could sit at the gateway to the last battle and casually take out powerful channellers one at a time. 

I love the WOT series but I really really dislike much of what BS did in the books, mainly because it was almost really good but instead was just really bad. 

[Agitel]

1 hour ago, king of nowhere said:

 

wait, am I the only one who think the test is perfectly clear? ok, they don't spell it straight out, but the point is: she must get into each of the three arches and come back. if she can't go in, she fails and she is put out of the tower. if she can't get out, she fails, but that's the least of her problems.

What's unclear about it all?

 

In the book Nynaeve has to choose to stay or go. The first TV test everyone was already getting murdered and it was too late to help so leaving was a no brainer. Second one was right though I think they could have twisted the emotional knife more. Third one was actually right on the first pass, but in the second pass there really wasn't anything else she could do. Everyone was already dead except the girl.

 

The difference is the temptation to stay because she thinks she can make a difference, where there is an alternative, but in two out of three (overall) there really was no other rational choice but to leave. The question is whether she's willing to leave things behind in order to be Aes Sedai, not just about confronting her fears and having her hand forced because by the time she makes her choice there's no one left to help or save or happiness to pursue.

Edited September 6, 2023 by Agitel

[king of nowhere]

1 hour ago, Agitel said:

 

In the book Nynaeve has to choose to stay or go. The first TV test everyone was already getting murdered and it was too late to help so leaving was a no brainer. Second one was right though I think they could have twisted the emotional knife more. Third one was actually right on the first pass, but in the second pass there really wasn't anything else she could do. Everyone was already dead except the girl.

 

The difference is the temptation to stay because she thinks she can make a difference, where there is an alternative, but in two out of three (overall) there really was no other rational choice but to leave. The question is whether she's willing to leave things behind in order to be Aes Sedai, not just about confronting her fears and having her hand forced because by the time she makes her choice there's no one left to help or save or happiness to pursue.

oh, right.

on the other hand, while in the first vision she really could do nothing, in the second she probably knew enough as wisdom to help with herbs, and in the third she still had a child to care for. the fact that she didn't just abandon the child but tried to bring her through the arch is a defining statement for nynaeve. here's where she says "i'm not going to abandon my loved ones for the white tower, i'm not going to choose them or the tower. I'm going to both save them and be aes sedai, and if I can't, so be it".

she has a similar moment in her final aes sedai testing in the later books.

 

the trollocs killing everyone else made her choice easier, yes. on the other hand, they also served as a warning. run away from your power, run away from your responsibilities, and bad things will happen to everyone. it could be what gives her the motivation to seek the one power

 

Edited September 6, 2023 by king of nowhere

[futurehermit]

11 hours ago, nsmallw said:

Reality check folks. 

 

Your dream of a direct translation of the books to screen was never going to happen!

 

It would take a dozen seasons at least to do correctly and there isn't a tv company anywhere that is going to fund that.

 

So put on your "big boy pants", grow up and stop whining.

 

Just enjoy the books for what they mean to you and let the rest of us enjoy the tv show for what it means to us. 

 

It's too bad that WOT is getting made in this era compared to earlier tv eras.

 

Lost: 121 episodes averaging about 45 min per episode

Sopranos: 86 episodes average about 55 min per episode

 

I'd love to have seen a more faithful adaptation of WOT of the length of Lost or Sopranos instead of the highly compressed, quite altered version we are getting.  Many book-lovers have waited decades for a faithful adaptation of the books to make it up onto the big/small screen.  I could live with an adaptation that was as faithful as the LOR movies were.  9 hours to tell a much shorter story.  Sure some things were changed, but many, MANY of the main plot points and character details were told faithfully, instead of the laundry list of reasons/excuses why it 'couldn't possibly' be done for WOT in this case.  Sure, we can go back and re-read the book series again, but this was the best chance to finally bring Jordan's actual story to the screen and it's just not a faithful adaptation.  Sure, if you squint and look at it sideways, some of the plot points and character details are sort of there and moved around a bunch, along with a bunch of stuff that was added for no great reason.  And some changes that just flat out aren't needed, such as Perrin wielding a sword instead of an axe.  Like, really, because of the season length only being 8 episodes, Perrin couldn't wield an axe that he has a strained relationship with?  I don't buy it.

[DaddyFinn]

9 minutes ago, futurehermit said:

And some changes that just flat out aren't needed, such as Perrin wielding a sword instead of an axe.  Like, really, because of the season length only being 8 episodes, Perrin couldn't wield an axe that he has a strained relationship with?  I don't buy it.

Perrin is still dealing with the death of Laila, as he should be. He killed Laila with an axe so he's not ready to pick one up again. That's just good writing. He will get his axe when it's time.

[JosephBurns]

On 9/1/2023 at 6:06 AM, TamSwordsman said:

I'm halfway through S2Ep3...and I'm disgusted...

 

This Rafe bloke is destroying books I deeply love.

 

There is simply no purpose to so many of his/the producers changes.

 

This is truly "inspired by" or "based on"...in the most loosely applicable sense.

 

They are literally taking themes from the books and creating their own story...a story that doesn't even remotely follow details and plot lines accurately.

 

I get that at times Jordan was verbose and that there must be some changes in any adaptation...but the things that are true to the books are occasional homage and by far in the minority. 

 

What do others think???

 

I couldn't agree more.  My plan was to stay off the TV portion of the forum and just try to watch the shows and see where they go.  

Was willing to give the first season a pass, didn't think it was horrible and some of the nonconical areas didn't seem like something a person couldn't live with (In hindsight how wrong was I?).  But after finishing S2 E1, especially watching the trailer for the rest of season 2, and I'm left feeling frustrated and angry.  These are wholesale changes to a wildly successful franchise that feels more like fan fiction.  Why not just stick with canon?  There's fifteen books!  Look at how well the Dune movie is doing, in part because they aren't making sweeping changes.  

 

Haven't read past this post, but I'm sure there are going to be the people who say don't watch.  Fine, I get it.  But, like you, I'm such a huge fan of these books and I'm disappointed that the show isn't honoring them, as they should be honored.  Like many, I grew up with these books being a teenager in the late 90's, so they have been with me for thirty years and many re-reads.  Watching what is being done to them is upsetting. 

 

Watching S2 E1 I said aloud, "Did these people even read these books?", it doesn't seem much of a stretch to answer no.          

[Agitel]

25 minutes ago, JosephBurns said:

Why not just stick with canon?  There's fifteen books!  

 

Fifteen books and six to eight seasons that it's being planned for because HBO and actors wouldn't commit to 15-20 years of production.

 

Imagine if the two partner Dune movie had to be squeezed into a single film? Or if the ASoIaF series only got 3-4 seasons instead of 8. That's the kind of crunch they're working with at this time if they plan to do the whole thing, that's the buy in from Amazon.

 

We have a hunt for the horn and Perrin catching up on his wolf abilities. We have Mat recovering in Tar Valon. We have Rand on a solo journey (TDR) with the introduction of Selene. We have Nynaeve's accepted test, Elayne's introduction, and the three girls in the Tower. We have Moiraine studying at Adeleas' and Vandene's Verin's. The plot threads are being laid out hitting similar beats to the book and heading in similar directions.

 

This isn't my dream adaptation, but it's what we get at this time.

 

And compared to season one, the production value and execution of what they are going for, at least, is much improved.

Edited September 6, 2023 by Agitel

[JosephBurns]

3 hours ago, Agitel said:

This isn't my dream adaptation, but it's what we get at this time.

 

This is a very fair rebuttal.  I tend to agree with much of what you've said, and I appreciate the idea of understanding that this isn't our ideal/dream adaptation but it's what we have at this time.  

 

I'll push back a little on the time it would take, as I don't believe each book would need to be it's own season.  As Jordan fans we all know there is fat that can be left off.  For example, it wouldn't be hard to imagine condensing books 3, 4 & 5 into one TV season.  I'm sure other condensing would be possible to limit the production time to something more doable.   

 

Ultimately my point is the wholesale changes that are being made.  I must have missed it, or maybe repressed it, from the first season - But when that  person had lost the ability to channel in S2 E1, that's what caused me to have the reaction I had which ended my previous post.  Maybe show a little more care to these characters that we've all grown to love.  

 

That said - You're points were valid enough for me to keep giving it a watch   

[Ralph]

10 minutes ago, JosephBurns said:

 

I'll push back a little on the time it would take, as I don't believe each book would need to be it's own season.  As Jordan fans we all know there is fat that can be left off.  For example, it wouldn't be hard to imagine condensing books 3, 4 & 5 into one TV season.  I'm sure other condensing would be possible to limit the production time to something more doable.   

 

 

3, 4 & 5!!!!!???? wow

[Agitel]

Most of us seem to think Moiraine's just been shielded by Ishamael, perhaps in a way that goes beyond the type of shield she's familiar with. There are some cues for that. Others have speculated she may take Siuan's role later in the series. I personally would be on the former. 

 

Rosamund Pike is their biggest name actor and the lead of the series. She's a producer on the show. And she's a major character in the books. Yet she has very little presence in TGH. It's a little like how they expanded Theon Greyjoy 's arc in one of the GOT seasons because otherwise he'd be off screen the whole time, though there isn't much to show for Moiraine. So they have her dealing with this ability being stolen from her (temporarily, in my mind) for her arc, while she'll still probably end up in the same way she does at the end of TGH. It gives the character a seasonal arc, and allows us to highlight that her grit and determination is there beneath the surface and she's more than just her magical ability.

 

All that said, does that mean I'd have done the same thing if I was writing the show? Not necessarily. But I feel accepting of the judgment calls they're making, and needing to present info in a more concise way, not as luxuriously sprawled out as it could be in the books. And the fact that the quality of the production (so far) is much better than what was there in season resolves one of my biggest issues.

Edited September 6, 2023 by Agitel

[Rolan Salvane]

As a lifelong Star Trek fan I had to come to realize that I needed to watch Trek just because it is Trek. I had to lose the expectations and just accept that each new show, or movie, was likely to be different from what I expected. Changing my mindset on that truly helped me to be able to enjoy even the newest shows that some rabid fans seem to hate. I look at the Wheel of Time show the exact same way. It's not the novels. It was never going to be the novels. It is it's very own thing, and because of that I can enjoy it as a brand-new story. 

 

I am also reminded of a quote from one of the most important people to ever have a hand in Star Trek, which truly cemented my way of seeing things like this into where I am now. I will include that here.

 

[JosephBurns]

1 hour ago, Agitel said:

Most of us seem to think Moiraine's just been shielded by Ishamael, perhaps in a way that goes beyond the type of shield she's familiar with. There are some cues for that. Others have speculated she may take Siuan's role later in the series. I personally would be on the former. 

 

This is an interesting theory - I certainty don't hate it.

 

And I agree on the Rosamund Pike point, she was the "star" draw for the show, so it's difficult to follow TGH with her largely absent.  Creating this Ishamael story circumvents that challenge.    

 

I'm glad I jumped on the forums for other perspectives.   

[DigificWriter]

@Rolan Salvane Nice quote. I hadn't heard it before, but it echoes something that I'm fond of citing, which is a statement from Lucasfilm Story Group member (and inspiration for Rebels supporting character Mart Mattin) Matt Martin that the concept of Canon is only relevant to the people responsible for actively working on the creative side of any given IP.

 

[Rolan Salvane]

3 minutes ago, DigificWriter said:

@Rolan Salvane Nice quote. I hadn't heard it before, but it echoes something that I'm fond of citing, which is a statement from Lucasfilm Story Group member (and inspiration for Rebels supporting character Mart Mattin) Matt Martin that the concept of Canon is only relevant to the people responsible for actively working on the creative side of any given IP.

 

 

I really, and truly love that! 

 

People who like to rag on Star Wars, especially the ones that were directly created by Lucas himself, i.e. the prequels, and saying they ruined the story, or they aren't really canon, truly amuse me. It's his story to tell. he gets to make the decisions. Totally different from the situation with WoT, but it amuses me nonetheless.

[JosephBurns]

1 hour ago, Ralph said:

3, 4 & 5!!!!!???? wow

 

You're right.  Too ambitious.  What about 3 and 4 in once 8 episode season?    

 

S3 E1 would be them leaving AP and venturing towards Tear.  Little bit of Mat & the girls in TV before they leave.

 

S3 E2 would be more on the way.

 

S3 E3 they arrive in Tear and the stone falls

 

S3 E4 off to the waste / Tanchico / Two Rivers

 

S3 E5 arrive at waste / Tanchico / Two Rivers

 

S3 E6 Rhuidean with Mat & Rand

 

S3 E7 Tanchico / Two Rivers finale

 

S3 E8 Al'Cair Dal / Rhuidean fight with Asmodean

 

[DigificWriter]

It's already been confirmed that Season 3's story is going to largely (and nigh-exclusively) be derived from The Shadow Rising (Book 4).

[Agitel]

24 minutes ago, JosephBurns said:

 

You're right.  Too ambitious.  What about 3 and 4 in once 8 episode season?    

 

S3 E1 would be them leaving AP and venturing towards Tear.  Little bit of Mat & the girls in TV before they leave.

 

S3 E2 would be more on the way.

 

S3 E3 they arrive in Tear and the stone falls

 

S3 E4 off to the waste / Tanchico / Two Rivers

 

S3 E5 arrive at waste / Tanchico / Two Rivers

 

S3 E6 Rhuidean with Mat & Rand

 

S3 E7 Tanchico / Two Rivers finale

 

S3 E8 Al'Cair Dal / Rhuidean fight with Asmodean

 

 

This is actually what I'd be up for expecting from S3 if they do keep the Stone of Tear/Callandor this early. Even within episode one or two. They may keep doing time skips between seasons when appropriate. I don't think we'll get the full journey from Falme to Tear by a longshot, if we get Tear at all.

Edited September 6, 2023 by Agitel

[Samt]

Moiraine isn't just mostly absent from tGH. She is completely or mostly absent from a majority of the books.  If the showrunners have somehow backed themselves into a corner where they need to keep Rosemund Pike onscreen (or if they think that they need to keep her onscreen to market the show), that shows very poor judgement and planning. 

 

I continue to be mystified by the claim that so much had to change because the runtime is insufficient, while also watching so much be added.  

Edited September 6, 2023 by Samt

[Agitel]

Giving an arc to a major character who's missing for a whole book is not uncommon in television adaptations. While I think much of the execution in season one was very rough, including episodes 6-8, I think the Warder plotline in episode 5 is the only one that I think was time better spent elsewhere. I could make a case for some scenes in episode 6, too, but I think if they did the same basic idea with better execution it would be worth it. The Warder plotline is the only one I feel was a bad judgment call.

 

I know the reasons for it, but I don't think it was worth it in the end.

 

But generally speaking, having less runtime is precisely one of the reasons why we're getting original scenes to convey the same information in less time in a coherent way.

 

As for Moiraine, she is present and doing stuff in books three through five. She is literally just not present for most of book two.

Edited September 6, 2023 by Agitel

[swollymammoth]

On 9/5/2023 at 5:25 PM, Elder_Haman said:

Why would they be concerned about another male channeler who has been gentled? He does not threaten them.

Yeah, it's not like the Aes Sedai in the books didn't keep him imprisoned at the White Tower and under constant supervision and that he only managed to escape by taking advantage of Elaida's coup. No reason to be concerned about a gentled Dragon. None at all. 

 

On 9/6/2023 at 1:37 PM, DigificWriter said:

It's already been confirmed that Season 3's story is going to largely (and nigh-exclusively) be derived from The Shadow Rising (Book 4).

Can I get a source for this? Because I had it on good authority that Season 3's story was actually going to be derived nigh-exclusively from Rafe's anal cavity. 

 

... 

 

But Rand will go to Rhuidean and there'll be a few threesomes, so it's fine. 

[Agitel]

15 minutes ago, swollymammoth said:

Yeah, it's not like the Aes Sedai in the books didn't keep him imprisoned at the White Tower and under constant supervision and that he only managed to escape by taking advantage of Elaida's coup. No reason to be concerned about a gentled Dragon. None at all. 

 

There were mainly two book reasons for why he was kept at the Tower. As an example, and also because he's a suicide risk, and I think Aes Sedai custom felt responsibility for that, and sympathy with being gentled, even if it was what was best.

[Elder_Haman]

54 minutes ago, swollymammoth said:

Yeah, it's not like the Aes Sedai in the books didn't keep him imprisoned at the White Tower and under constant supervision and that he only managed to escape by taking advantage of Elaida's coup. No reason to be concerned about a gentled Dragon. None at all. 

We’ve established that this isn’t the books. But apart from the fact that it happened differently in the books, what do the Aes Sedai think they have to fear from Logain now that he’s been gentled?

[swollymammoth]

14 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

what do the Aes Sedai think they have to fear from Logain now that he’s been gentled?

If they had nothing to fear from him, why did the Aes Sedai in the books guard him so closely? Just saying, if the Aes Sedai in the books thought there was reason to guard Logain and the TV show wants to just dump him somewhere random so that he can run into Rand more conveniently, it's on the show to justify that. 

[Elder_Haman]

On 9/6/2023 at 5:14 PM, swollymammoth said:

it's on the show to justify that.

They justified it by putting him in a mental institution that we (as viewers) know very little about. Maybe the Aes Sedai put all of the men they gentle there. Or maybe that's just Randland's version of an insane asylum. But the fact is that they dropped Logain in a plausible location from which to rejoin the story.

 

He's pretty clearly going to be joined with Asmo, so it makes sense from the standpoint of plot. It also makes sense thematically that they reintroduce Logain at the same time as they introduced Selene - symbolic of him being pulled between past and present. His need for self-discovery pulls him away from Selene's attempts to make him her puppet, pulling Rand away from LTT. 

 

How's that for justification? 

 

On 9/6/2023 at 5:14 PM, swollymammoth said:

If they had nothing to fear from him, why did the Aes Sedai in the books guard him so closely?

Oh. Forgot to mention: The Aes Sedai guarded Logain so closely in the books because they were afraid that his death in Aes Sedai custody would be cause for world rulers to turn away from the Tower (presumably toward the Whitecloaks). They didn't view him as dangerous, but as a tool that they could produce to use at their whim.

 

[Scarloc99]

On 9/6/2023 at 11:58 AM, JosephBurns said:

 

This is a very fair rebuttal.  I tend to agree with much of what you've said, and I appreciate the idea of understanding that this isn't our ideal/dream adaptation but it's what we have at this time.  

 

I'll push back a little on the time it would take, as I don't believe each book would need to be it's own season.  As Jordan fans we all know there is fat that can be left off.  For example, it wouldn't be hard to imagine condensing books 3, 4 & 5 into one TV season.  I'm sure other condensing would be possible to limit the production time to something more doable.   

 

Ultimately my point is the wholesale changes that are being made.  I must have missed it, or maybe repressed it, from the first season - But when that  person had lost the ability to channel in S2 E1, that's what caused me to have the reaction I had which ended my previous post.  Maybe show a little more care to these characters that we've all grown to love.  

 

That said - You're points were valid enough for me to keep giving it a watch   

3,4 and 5 lol, um no, 4 is an entire season all to itself, and that is cutting out some key stuff. Remember the battle for Emonds field will struggle to be an episode all on it's own, I imagine it will cover 2, unless they choose not to go all GOT on us and just show us the before and after. Rand has several battles in the Aiel Wastes which I really hope we get to see, we have the whole Rhuiden piece, and then the Aiel gathering and showing the dragon tattoos. Oh and Mat in the doorway, then we also have the Girls and all they are doing hunting down the black ajah. 

That person losing the ability to channel makes alot of story telling sense, it keeps her away from the main action (just as she is in the book) and it gives her an actual arc of development, In the books she doesn't really get that so much until right before she goes and does her thing. But no people have to stop sitting and complaining it doesnt match the books page for page, the whole essence of the WOT is there and all the characters are doing what they did in the books, all be it from slightly different reasons, but, and I have said this several times, books 1,2 and 3 are really repetative in terms of story, they characters do the same thing over and over and over again, and that makes for awful TV. Season 1, characters go running away, get split up, find each other again, fall into a trap and barely escape. Season 2 the characters get split up, half go running after a thing, the other half fall into a trap, they all escape by the skin of their teeth, season 3 they all get split up, half the group go chasing after one of the group, who is heading into a trap. The other half are also chasing, and heading into the same trap, they all get out by the skin of their teeth. That is the essence of the story of books 1, 2 and 3 and a TV viewing audience would get very bored at seeing the same thing happen over and over and over again over 2/3 seasons.  So the writers have made the actual story more intresting, and I personally think the overall thread of splitting them all up to have there own individual stories earlier makes for a better story and RJ should have done it in book 2 instead of waiting for book 4. 

 

On 9/6/2023 at 12:15 PM, Agitel said:

Most of us seem to think Moiraine's just been shielded by Ishamael, perhaps in a way that goes beyond the type of shield she's familiar with. There are some cues for that. Others have speculated she may take Siuan's role later in the series. I personally would be on the former. 

 

Rosamund Pike is their biggest name actor and the lead of the series. She's a producer on the show. And she's a major character in the books. Yet she has very little presence in TGH. It's a little like how they expanded Theon Greyjoy 's arc in one of the GOT seasons because otherwise he'd be off screen the whole time, though there isn't much to show for Moiraine. So they have her dealing with this ability being stolen from her (temporarily, in my mind) for her arc, while she'll still probably end up in the same way she does at the end of TGH. It gives the character a seasonal arc, and allows us to highlight that her grit and determination is there beneath the surface and she's more than just her magical ability.

 

All that said, does that mean I'd have done the same thing if I was writing the show? Not necessarily. But I feel accepting of the judgment calls they're making, and needing to present info in a more concise way, not as luxuriously sprawled out as it could be in the books. And the fact that the quality of the production (so far) is much better than what was there in season resolves one of my biggest issues.

Siuan is far to important to Egwenes arc to remove her, and Moraine cant be put in that teaching role because she doesn't have that experience. We will get the Siuan storyline in some format with her teaching Egwene 

 

On 9/6/2023 at 1:23 PM, JosephBurns said:

 

This is an interesting theory - I certainty don't hate it.

 

And I agree on the Rosamund Pike point, she was the "star" draw for the show, so it's difficult to follow TGH with her largely absent.  Creating this Ishamael story circumvents that challenge.    

 

I'm glad I jumped on the forums for other perspectives.   

I started a thread where I postulate that the Shield will actually work out in her favour when she gets to Toman Head. In the Great Hunt in a throw away line people seem to forget she tells rand that for the entirety of the story she has been off screen rescuing sisters from the Seanchan, now, if she can't channel then she can't be collared, meaning she can help rescue sisters, possibly more involved in the rescue of the girls. I also can see a certain forsaken, seeing her causing him issues, removing the shield with the intention of collaring her and that backfiring on him some way. 

 

On 9/6/2023 at 3:14 PM, Agitel said:

Giving an arc to a major character who's missing for a whole book is not uncommon in television adaptations. While I think much of the execution in season one was very rough, including episodes 6-8, I think the Warder plotline in episode 5 is the only one that I think was time better spent elsewhere. I could make a case for some scenes in episode 6, too, but I think if they did the same basic idea with better execution it would be worth it. The Warder plotline is the only one I feel was a bad judgment call.

 

I know the reasons for it, but I don't think it was worth it in the end.

 

But generally speaking, having less runtime is precisely one of the reasons why we're getting original scenes to convey the same information in less time in a coherent way.

 

As for Moiraine, she is present and doing stuff in books three through five. She is literally just not present for most of book two.

The actual Warder bit of that episode was a tiny part in comparison to the really important part, a reason to bring the story to the White Tower and introduce tower politics in season 1. the whole Steppin bit didnt take up much run time at all, maybe 10 mins total if that, and that 10 mins shows the non book audience a key fact about the bond that keeps reoccurring right the way through the story.  

 

On 9/6/2023 at 5:14 PM, swollymammoth said:

If they had nothing to fear from him, why did the Aes Sedai in the books guard him so closely? Just saying, if the Aes Sedai in the books thought there was reason to guard Logain and the TV show wants to just dump him somewhere random so that he can run into Rand more conveniently, it's on the show to justify that. 

They didn't guard him, they watched him, making sure he didn't try and take his own life. This is in keeping with the 3 oaths, to do nothing that might kill a person unless in defence. by Stilling Logain they give him a death sentence, so they set about watching him trying to keep him healthy and safe from himself. I imagine, had long enough have passed, he would have eventually been allowed to go to a farm somewhere to live out the rest of his days, watched and cared for by a sister who was fascinated by what happens to someone after they are stilled.