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Wtf egwene?


tyanth
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I think I see where the problem is.

 

Egwene supporters are arguing that she is right to oppose Rand based on how he explained nothing, basically stated he had no plans for after the seals were broken and may still have sanity problems from her perspective. Egwene's detractors on the other hand are arguing that her decision to oppose Rand breaking the seals came far too quickly and that she is not even allowing for the possibility that Rand is correct.

 

To be honest, I think both sides have some merit. I really don't like Egwene, but her trepidation regarding the seals is totally understandable given the possibility of the Dark One's influence extending still further over the world. Neither her nor any of her Aes Sedai supporters know what might happen when the seals are broken, though undoubtedly it would be something bad. She is reacting exactly like any normal person would when told that an ultimate evil is about to be unleashed.

 

And therein lies the problem. She's acting like a normal person, rather than the Amyrlin Seat, leader of the White Tower which, for better or worse, has stood strong through 3000 years of history. A leader must consider every possibility and never jump to conclusions, which Egwene automatically did when Rand went to see her. She is not going to Merrilor to discuss breaking the seals, she is going there with her mind already made up with no willingness whatsoever to discuss anything. Even if your local Messiah figure is widely suspected of being insane, to simply dismiss his claims outright and never even consider that he may have a point is really quite shortsighted. Even when Nynaeve, Elayne and the Wise Ones claim that Rand has changed for the better, she still stubbornly clings to her own conclusions.

 

This. Thank you.

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I'd say that much as I dislike Egwene, I do think that Rand's ta'veren effect has some bearing on her decision to oppose. We know that Rand has been counting on her bringing the leaders of the world to the FoM. This, for him, is the desired outcome. Whilst the WT is, as some of said, an institution who's power may be on the decline, with the rise of the Asha'man, and the revealing of Wise Ones, Windfinders, Kin, etc, it is still the channeling institution with the most power in the Westlands. The Aiel and Seafolk already follow Rand, in theory, he doesn't need to trick them into coming. The Asha'man are still distrusted by much of the population. Ergo, the White Tower, specifically the Amyrlin Seat, is possibly the only figure, other than he himself, that can bring all the rulers to the FoM. He is allied with some, and distrusted by others for his actions. Therefore, having Egwene trying to bring people to the FoM makes sense. Much as it seems she's managed to piss off a substantial portion of readers, the rulers of Randland are probably far less wary of her than the DR at this point :P

 

So, given that Rand is counting on Egwene bringing the rulers to the FoM. Assume he tells her he wants her to bring everyone. If he explains his plan to her, then a) for all he knows, there's Black Ajah or Forsaken listening in, and b) In a more meta way, it spoils the surprise for us :P If he doesn't explain his plan for the armies of Randland, merely says he wants her to bring everyone to the FoM before he breaks the seals, then (and this may be my dislike for the character coming in here), I doubt Egwene would like being told what to do by Rand and doing errands for him. He doesn't list her as someone he can trust. And he grew up in the same village as her. He knows that a strong will can sometimes break his ta'veren effect, from Tuon. So why risk Egwene objecting to his plan and trying to fight the ta'veren effect and REFUSING to bring people, or bringing smaller armies, or whatever, when he assumes she will be wary, he knows she won't want to break the seals. Why not push that distrust a little further by refusing to discuss, and telling her to show up at the FoM, and have his ta'veren effect carry her natural resistance to his plan, her stubbornness, etc. that little bit further so he can get just what he needs out of her? At the end, she is dizzy, a classic effect of being ta'verened.

 

Don't get me wrong, I have my issues with her handling of the whole thing myself. If she knows the Last Battle is coming, if she knows the Borderlands are being overrun, why isn't she pouring more effort and resources into that? I know that she was pushing sisters towards being raised, but I'd hope that's not it. She could be sending Green Ajah to the Borderlands, and Yellow Ajah, even, trying to contact other nations to send AS units to them in readiness. We know that she has plans for cross-training AS with Wise Ones and Windfinders later on, but why are they not all getting together now and sharing all the offensive/ defensive weaves they know? I don't buy that she's doing all this stuff "off screen", as it were, and if we're being denied the preparations for the Last Battle so that we can see the Sitters being unnaturally stupid so Egwene can look better, or Gawyn and Egwene arguing because Gawyn's not yet whipped enough, then I'm going to have severe disappointment. I don't like her thoughts that rulers that disagree with her, or look like they might possibly disagree with her, might have to be replaced, as it points toward a worrying tendency to not allow other independent rulers to disagree with her, and doesn't bode well for the future. But the FoM? Yeah, I think this is what Rand wanted, and that might have at least a little to do with her refusal to see any other point of view.

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that's not the WT's position. The seals have to be broken. Every tom, dick and harry knows that. The question is what do you do after that? what's rand's plan after he smashes the seals and tarmon gaidon ensues?

I can't help but point out the irony here,that of YOU saying that while conveniently ignoring Egwene's position :rolleyes:

 

None of us Egwene supporters are saying she's right, and that Rand is wrong. We're defending her actions based on how Rand acted. That is all.

Way for missing my point.I'm talking SPECIFICALLY about Elan's comment here.

 

Clearly you don't get how her SPECIFIC comment is not in conflict because, as I said, we don't disagree with breaking the seals. Yes Egwene does, but she also asked Rand to plan with her about it (despite the fact she disagrees) and he blew her off. Which obviously made her more resolute in standing against him. Understandably.

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I think I see where the problem is.

 

Egwene supporters are arguing that she is right to oppose Rand based on how he explained nothing, basically stated he had no plans for after the seals were broken and may still have sanity problems from her perspective. Egwene's detractors on the other hand are arguing that her decision to oppose Rand breaking the seals came far too quickly and that she is not even allowing for the possibility that Rand is correct.

 

To be honest, I think both sides have some merit. I really don't like Egwene, but her trepidation regarding the seals is totally understandable given the possibility of the Dark One's influence extending still further over the world. Neither her nor any of her Aes Sedai supporters know what might happen when the seals are broken, though undoubtedly it would be something bad. She is reacting exactly like any normal person would when told that an ultimate evil is about to be unleashed.

 

And therein lies the problem. She's acting like a normal person, rather than the Amyrlin Seat, leader of the White Tower which, for better or worse, has stood strong through 3000 years of history. A leader must consider every possibility and never jump to conclusions, which Egwene automatically did when Rand went to see her. She is not going to Merrilor to discuss breaking the seals, she is going there with her mind already made up with no willingness whatsoever to discuss anything. Even if your local Messiah figure is widely suspected of being insane, to simply dismiss his claims outright and never even consider that he may have a point is really quite shortsighted. Even when Nynaeve, Elayne and the Wise Ones claim that Rand has changed for the better, she still stubbornly clings to her own conclusions.

 

Maybe if Rand treated her like the Amyrlin Seat and not just another Monarch he needs to either manipulate or sweep aside, she'd be in a better position to make those decisions. Instead, given that she MUST make the decision, but has no details, and can't investigate since it seems he'll do it imminently, the only rational option is to oppose the perceived ill-conceived plan by gathering support that will add the required weight to her words.

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Why should Rand treat her with any more respect than that he showed? Egwene has NEVER shown him ANY respect. Not even as the Car'a'carn, the defacto leader of 3 nations, The Dragon Reborn and he saved her from being killed by Lanfear on the docks. Yet she still thinks the worst of him and believes he doesn't have enough sense to do anything on his own.

And for all her complaints about Rand being arrogant, I find it funny that she is the only one of those two who actually demands that their friends shows deference to them in public, and in some occasions in private as well.

Edited by Manscher
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How did Zen Rand react when he met people he had wronged, or even people who suffered as a result of organizations and armies answering to him?

 

How did the Amyrlin react to Rand, a person wronged by the Aes Sedai?

 

Her first words should have been an abject apology for the kidnapping, not asking whether he had come to "submit himself to the authority of the Tower" Really, think about the incredible arrogance of that question.

Edited by randsc
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She is not going to Merrilor to discuss breaking the seals, she is going there with her mind already made up with no willingness whatsoever to discuss anything.

 

Shouldn't we wait until this actually happens to decide on what she may be willing to do in the future? I would be pretty shocked if she shows up at the FoM and refuses to discuss anything about the breaking of the seals.

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I'd say that much as I dislike Egwene, I do think that Rand's ta'veren effect has some bearing on her decision to oppose. We know that Rand has been counting on her bringing the leaders of the world to the FoM. This, for him, is the desired outcome. Whilst the WT is, as some of said, an institution who's power may be on the decline, with the rise of the Asha'man, and the revealing of Wise Ones, Windfinders, Kin, etc, it is still the channeling institution with the most power in the Westlands. The Aiel and Seafolk already follow Rand, in theory, he doesn't need to trick them into coming. The Asha'man are still distrusted by much of the population. Ergo, the White Tower, specifically the Amyrlin Seat, is possibly the only figure, other than he himself, that can bring all the rulers to the FoM. He is allied with some, and distrusted by others for his actions. Therefore, having Egwene trying to bring people to the FoM makes sense. Much as it seems she's managed to piss off a substantial portion of readers, the rulers of Randland are probably far less wary of her than the DR at this point :P

Here's the thing: at the time that Rand spoke to Egwene he knew for a certainty that he could bring in Tear, Illian, the Sea Folk and the Aiel. Asking Elayne to come, and impressing it's important would have brought Andor. Cairhien would have been brought by either Elayne or himself. He knew where the Borderlanders were, and it is Rand who is bringing them to the meeting, not Egwene. Arad Doman is effectively being brought by Rand as well; the White Tower hasn't been involved in its politics (beyond a kingnapping that hadn't yet brought the king to Tar Valon).

 

The Seanchan haven't been contacted by either party that we've seen. The White Tower has brought Murandy, in theory at least. As I noted above, Elayne is coming because Egwene asked her to come, but if Rand had asked her to come and said it was important she likely would have come for him as well. So, the only parties that Egwene is rounding up that Rand couldn't have rounded up himself just as easily are Murandy and the White Tower. At the end of the day, the way Rand set things up isn't to make Egwene do all the hard work of gathering the world.

 

Rand has already done that.

 

He's not relying on Egwene to gather up the nations of the world. All she's bringing that he couldn't have easily brought himself is Murandy and the White Tower itself. He's relying on Egwene to bring the White Tower. If he had asked Egwene to bring the White Tower (and likely its armies as well), chances are that he would have been given a "you're not the boss of us!" response. The situation he's created, and Egwene's response, ensures that the Amyrlin and the Tower will come, and that it will not feel like it's on the defensive, walking into a trap, when they see the gathered armies of the world.

 

Even if Rand did have a plan at the time he walked into the White Tower, I doubt that he would have stayed to talk about it. His purpose in walking into the Tower was to ensure he could gather up the Aes Sedai into the combined armies of the Light when the time came.

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I think I see where the problem is.

 

Egwene supporters are arguing that she is right to oppose Rand based on how he explained nothing, basically stated he had no plans for after the seals were broken and may still have sanity problems from her perspective. Egwene's detractors on the other hand are arguing that her decision to oppose Rand breaking the seals came far too quickly and that she is not even allowing for the possibility that Rand is correct.

 

To be honest, I think both sides have some merit. I really don't like Egwene, but her trepidation regarding the seals is totally understandable given the possibility of the Dark One's influence extending still further over the world. Neither her nor any of her Aes Sedai supporters know what might happen when the seals are broken, though undoubtedly it would be something bad. She is reacting exactly like any normal person would when told that an ultimate evil is about to be unleashed.

 

And therein lies the problem. She's acting like a normal person, rather than the Amyrlin Seat, leader of the White Tower which, for better or worse, has stood strong through 3000 years of history. A leader must consider every possibility and never jump to conclusions, which Egwene automatically did when Rand went to see her. She is not going to Merrilor to discuss breaking the seals, she is going there with her mind already made up with no willingness whatsoever to discuss anything. Even if your local Messiah figure is widely suspected of being insane, to simply dismiss his claims outright and never even consider that he may have a point is really quite shortsighted. Even when Nynaeve, Elayne and the Wise Ones claim that Rand has changed for the better, she still stubbornly clings to her own conclusions.

 

Maybe if Rand treated her like the Amyrlin Seat and not just another Monarch he needs to either manipulate or sweep aside, she'd be in a better position to make those decisions. Instead, given that she MUST make the decision, but has no details, and can't investigate since it seems he'll do it imminently, the only rational option is to oppose the perceived ill-conceived plan by gathering support that will add the required weight to her words.

 

He announced himself to the aes sedai instead of entering without permission a la Taim (which I found awesome), he let himself be shielded by 2 circles or 13 aes sedai without saying a thing, even though he had shown no sign of hostility, he spoke calmly without once raising his voice, he stayed when Egwene ordered him to stay, he spoke honestly, and he bowed to her. I don't think Rand has ever bowed to anyone.....but the amrylin seat. I'd say that's pretty respectfull. The aes sedai just got beaten at their own game. If they couldn't see that Rand was manipulating them, then that's their problem.

 

Rand didn't blow her off, he just put off his discussion with her on the subject of the seals until the FoM. He made it clear he intended to break the seals after meeting her, so there is no risk for Egwene. She could have waited until the FoM to make her decision. She made it before and has refused to reconsider it. That's fine but as she's probably going to turn out to be wrong, she's going to look bad, which could have been avoided with a little caution and patience.

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She is not going to Merrilor to discuss breaking the seals, she is going there with her mind already made up with no willingness whatsoever to discuss anything.

 

Shouldn't we wait until this actually happens to decide on what she may be willing to do in the future? I would be pretty shocked if she shows up at the FoM and refuses to discuss anything about the breaking of the seals.

 

Well she has sort of made it clear that she thinks breaking the seals is crazy, but honestly I expect someone (Rand, Min, Perrin, Cadsuane, whoever) to say something that will stun and make her think. I hardly expect her to go all Lanfear and lose her mind, but she is probably going to be proven wrong in front of pretty much every Monarch in Randland, which, for a young and promising amrylin, who's trying to limit the Dragon Reborn's power and gather the monarchs to herself, is a rather big setback. For sure it's going to make the WT look bad, which is not what it needs at the moment. In any case I expect the news of the trollocs attacking Caemlyn (and perhaps the seachen attacking the WT again) to interrupt the meeting and make everyone more or less forget Egwene's initial opposition. Throw in a battle at the BT and you've got the book starting off with a bang!

In any case I thinks it's clear that Egwene's stance on the matter is definitely not neutral. I mean she's tried to convince just about everyone with any kind of power to see her way of thinking, which is sort of indicative of her opposition.

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Clearly you don't get how her SPECIFIC comment is not in conflict because, as I said, we don't disagree with breaking the seals. Yes Egwene does, but she also asked Rand to plan with her about it (despite the fact she disagrees) and he blew her off. Which obviously made her more resolute in standing against him. Understandably.

And since this is getting out of hand and you don't seem to get the hint, I'll be blunt : I was commenting on how ironic it is for a Egwene fanboy to comment that everyone knows they have to break the shields but his favourite character.

 

Not whether or not it is the right thing or if she is justified in her position.I was just making an observation.

Edited by Zentari
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Maybe if Rand treated her like the Amyrlin Seat and not just another Monarch he needs to either manipulate or sweep aside, she'd be in a better position to make those decisions. Instead, given that she MUST make the decision, but has no details, and can't investigate since it seems he'll do it imminently, the only rational option is to oppose the perceived ill-conceived plan by gathering support that will add the required weight to her words.

 

Rand showed Egwene far and away more deference than she ever deserved. He announced that he would be visiting, waited until Egwene sent for him, allowed himself to be shielded twice over, called her 'Mother', stopped when she told him not to go and even bowed to her. Like I said before, the point is not that she is necessarily wrong to oppose Rand's plan, it's that she does so without ever once considering that he may be right. A good leader must consider every option carefully, especially in such troubled times. Rand even invited her to come along and discuss everything with him at a later time, yet the possibility that Rand may be right never even crosses her mind.

 

 

Shouldn't we wait until this actually happens to decide on what she may be willing to do in the future? I would be pretty shocked if she shows up at the FoM and refuses to discuss anything about the breaking of the seals.

 

We see from Egwene's POV throughout Towers of Midnight that she has no intention of even considering the possibility that Rand may be correct. She attempts to sway the monarchs of the world to her way of thinking even before the meeting, as her letters to Darlin clearly show. If there is an indication that Egwene was willing to hear Rand out then I will gladly eat my words, but nothing I've read seems to indicate that Egwene will do so. What actually happens at Merrilor is a different matter altogether; I have no doubt that the seals will be broken one way or another, but we are discussing Egwene's attitude in the present rather than how it might change in the future.

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We see from Egwene's POV throughout Towers of Midnight that she has no intention of even considering the possibility that Rand may be correct. She attempts to sway the monarchs of the world to her way of thinking even before the meeting, as her letters to Darlin clearly show. If there is an indication that Egwene was willing to hear Rand out then I will gladly eat my words, but nothing I've read seems to indicate that Egwene will do so. What actually happens at Merrilor is a different matter altogether; I have no doubt that the seals will be broken one way or another, but we are discussing Egwene's attitude in the present rather than how it might change in the future.

 

As has been quoted numerous times in this thread, Egwene's very first reaction was lets talk about this and plan. Rand refused, said he would see her at the FoM and bounced. All I'm saying is let's wait and see what she will do instead of making definititve statements like "she is going there with her mind already made up with no willingness whatsoever to discuss anything" Just because Egwene is planning against what she views as the wrong course of action, doesn't mean that in the future she won't listen to reason. If Rand finally deigns to talk about what he is going to do(that's assuming Min has figured something out by then) then I'm pretty certain Ewgene would at least hear him out.

Edited by Suttree
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Rand showed Egwene far and away more deference than she ever deserved. He announced that he would be visiting, waited until Egwene sent for him, allowed himself to be shielded twice over, called her 'Mother', stopped when she told him not to go and even bowed to her. Like I said before, the point is not that she is necessarily wrong to oppose Rand's plan, it's that she does so without ever once considering that he may be right. A good leader must consider every option carefully, especially in such troubled times. Rand even invited her to come along and discuss everything with him at a later time, yet the possibility that Rand may be right never even crosses her mind.

 

Face it...

 

The Egwene worshipers will not be happy unless Rand falls at Egwene's feet, licks her boots, begs her to tell him exactly what to do and when to do it, and submits himself for complete and utter humiliation for his "wrongs" against the White Tower and, indirectly, her. They won't be happy unless Rand forces all of the Asha'man who bonded Aes Sedai release their AS and allow themselves to be bonded into slavery by the WT. They won't be happy until all the Asha'man are made Warder-slaves. They won't be happy until Rand is publicly humiliated by Egwene and turned into her simpering lapdog. Not surprisingly, all of that is exactly what Egwene wants as well.

 

That said, you are entirely correct. Rand showed her more respect than she deserved, and showed an incredible amount of deference to her (more than he should have shown, IMO). Personally, I think Rand is a fool for humbling himself as much as he has to her, especially given that she treats him like crap, but it's no less than I expected. RJ had a huge hard-on for Egwene's character and was determined to write it so that she always "wins". I think those who salivate in worship at the very mention of Egwene's name will be quite pleased with the final book because, truthfully, I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if all I mentioned in the first paragraph is exactly what happens. And when it does, I'll host a book burning party at my house. I've already had all of the nauseatingly overwrought Egwene-worshiping "she's so perfect and everyone must obey her!" I can take in the books.

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Maybe if Rand treated her like the Amyrlin Seat and not just another Monarch he needs to either manipulate or sweep aside, she'd be in a better position to make those decisions. Instead, given that she MUST make the decision, but has no details, and can't investigate since it seems he'll do it imminently, the only rational option is to oppose the perceived ill-conceived plan by gathering support that will add the required weight to her words.

 

Rand showed Egwene far and away more deference than she ever deserved. He announced that he would be visiting, waited until Egwene sent for him, allowed himself to be shielded twice over, called her 'Mother', stopped when she told him not to go and even bowed to her. Like I said before, the point is not that she is necessarily wrong to oppose Rand's plan, it's that she does so without ever once considering that he may be right. A good leader must consider every option carefully, especially in such troubled times. Rand even invited her to come along and discuss everything with him at a later time, yet the possibility that Rand may be right never even crosses her mind.

 

 

Shouldn't we wait until this actually happens to decide on what she may be willing to do in the future? I would be pretty shocked if she shows up at the FoM and refuses to discuss anything about the breaking of the seals.

 

We see from Egwene's POV throughout Towers of Midnight that she has no intention of even considering the possibility that Rand may be correct. She attempts to sway the monarchs of the world to her way of thinking even before the meeting, as her letters to Darlin clearly show. If there is an indication that Egwene was willing to hear Rand out then I will gladly eat my words, but nothing I've read seems to indicate that Egwene will do so. What actually happens at Merrilor is a different matter altogether; I have no doubt that the seals will be broken one way or another, but we are discussing Egwene's attitude in the present rather than how it might change in the future.

 

I agree with everything you said, however I have to point out that Rand never called Egwene "mother". Just pointing that out.

Edited by Master Ablar
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hmph, what's the best way to convince someone about the course of action? You sit down and explain the plan.

 

something the lord dragon didnt even bother because suprise suprise he has no freakin plan. no idea on what to do when he smashes the seals. I am going to let loose shaitan and begin tarmon gaidon and i have no clue on what's next. But i have to do it because because...... i am bored out of my head.

 

yep we should all go along with it. And people say rand lost all his arrogance. damn why do i even bother? I am out!

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I agree with everything you said, however I have to point out that Rand never called Egwene "mother". Just pointing that out.

Of course, why should he ? He treated her with respect, he did not come groveling.There is a difference.

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I agree with everything you said, however I have to point out that Rand never called Egwene "mother". Just pointing that out.

Of course, why should he ? He treated her with respect, he did not come groveling.There is a difference.

 

Just want to point out in that calling the Amyrlin Mother isn't grovelling. It's is a common honorific in Randland. Would be like a foreign head of state saying President. Even without mentioning it I do think he showed more than enough respect.

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I agree with everything you said, however I have to point out that Rand never called Egwene "mother". Just pointing that out.

Of course, why should he ? He treated her with respect, he did not come groveling.There is a difference.

 

Just want to point out in that calling the Amyrlin Mother isn't grovelling. It's is a common honorific in Randland. Would be like a foreign head of state saying President. Even without mentioning it I do think he showed more than enough respect.

 

I have a mother and I love her; I don't need another one. Hell would freeze before I called some snot-nosed little girl "Mother". I think it's arrogant as hell to expect people to use that honorific, especially since it's chosen so that people will feel like her "children" and automatically obey her demands. Someone needs to tell her - and the entire WT - to stuff that whole "child" crap. Pick a different title and go with it, and stop demanding that people drop to their knees and kiss rings. The AS are arrogant enough without being treated like gods.

 

FWIW, I know RJ took the whole idea from Catholicism. I don't like it there either, though. I grew up Catholic and refused to call the priests "Father" (I have a father and love him as well...and he's the only one that gets any "father"like honorific from me). It really is the same thing - I never accepted any priest's authority over me and still don't.

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FWIW, I know RJ took the whole idea from Catholicism.

 

Actually it's common in many religious traditions besides Catholicism.

 

I grew up Catholic and refused to call the priests "Father" (I have a father and love him as well...and he's the only one that gets any "father"like honorific from me).

 

I don't think you can really say you grew up Catholic..

 

I never accepted any priest's authority over me and still don't.

 

You're free to take that up with God when you see Him.

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Come on, Rand was a this point ruler of three countries, the Aiel and the Black Tower. And the saviour of the world to boot. Even his bow was a bit much, but acceptable as a sign of courtesy to the host. but calling Egwene "Mother" would've been way too much. And you can bet she won't ever call him "Lord Dragon" in a million years or any of his other titles in any situation.

 

Plus Rand calling his former girlfriend "Mother" would've been weird. ;)

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Guest PiotrekS

I think I see where the problem is.

 

Egwene supporters are arguing that she is right to oppose Rand based on how he explained nothing, basically stated he had no plans for after the seals were broken and may still have sanity problems from her perspective. Egwene's detractors on the other hand are arguing that her decision to oppose Rand breaking the seals came far too quickly and that she is not even allowing for the possibility that Rand is correct.

 

To be honest, I think both sides have some merit. I really don't like Egwene, but her trepidation regarding the seals is totally understandable given the possibility of the Dark One's influence extending still further over the world. Neither her nor any of her Aes Sedai supporters know what might happen when the seals are broken, though undoubtedly it would be something bad. She is reacting exactly like any normal person would when told that an ultimate evil is about to be unleashed.

 

And therein lies the problem. She's acting like a normal person, rather than the Amyrlin Seat, leader of the White Tower which, for better or worse, has stood strong through 3000 years of history. A leader must consider every possibility and never jump to conclusions, which Egwene automatically did when Rand went to see her. She is not going to Merrilor to discuss breaking the seals, she is going there with her mind already made up with no willingness whatsoever to discuss anything. Even if your local Messiah figure is widely suspected of being insane, to simply dismiss his claims outright and never even consider that he may have a point is really quite shortsighted. Even when Nynaeve, Elayne and the Wise Ones claim that Rand has changed for the better, she still stubbornly clings to her own conclusions.

 

Maybe if Rand treated her like the Amyrlin Seat and not just another Monarch he needs to either manipulate or sweep aside, she'd be in a better position to make those decisions. Instead, given that she MUST make the decision, but has no details, and can't investigate since it seems he'll do it imminently, the only rational option is to oppose the perceived ill-conceived plan by gathering support that will add the required weight to her words.

 

Jumping in quite late, but had to comment on this. Egwene-the Amyrlin - is precisely one of these monarchs you said Rand needed either to manipulate or sweep aside. Her country is more powerful than most and so she is given more respect than most other monarchs (you can easily compare it with the way the leaders of contemporary countries are treated when on state visits -generally the more powerful the country, the more respect the leader gets).

 

It's Rand who is in a unique position of universal, world-wide authority. The Amyrlin is not the world leader, she's just the leader of her organization and holds a strictly political office. There were and will be at least hundreds (thousands?) of Amyrlins. Unfortunately the number of Messiahs is quite smaller. The Amyrlin's authority over the rest of the world that she claims in some respects is entirely self-apointed (Watcher of the Seals?Ha! :rolleyes:)

 

So, irrespective of who actually is right in this dispute (and I agree that Rand behaved oddly during the meeting with Egwene-I'm curious what exactly did he have in mind), I think it is definitely incorrect to treat the Dragon Reborn and the Amyrlin as two equal, counterweighing figures of authority.

 

PS. "Mother" as an official title is IMHO extremaly unfortunate, just as "father" is. In Rand's place, I also would try to avoid using this title and try some equivalent (Amyrlin?). Rand calling Egwene "mother"? That's simply ridiculous, accepted official title or not.

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hmph, what's the best way to convince someone about the course of action? You sit down and explain the plan.

 

something the lord dragon didnt even bother because suprise suprise he has no freakin plan. no idea on what to do when he smashes the seals. I am going to let loose shaitan and begin tarmon gaidon and i have no clue on what's next. But i have to do it because because...... i am bored out of my head.

 

yep we should all go along with it. And people say rand lost all his arrogance. damn why do i even bother? I am out!

thoguht I would just point out that rand knows that he must break the seals. He has the best idea of what will happen without artificial seals upon the DO's prison, true he has no solid plan yet (that we know of) but gave himself and egwene a month to plan. It isnt as if he said "Im going to smash the seals in 3.2.1. done! oh and dont worry the bore isnt nearly big enough for the DO to be truly set free." beside to be honest I dont think egwene would listen to reason if it came from rand, everything that she hears of him about him and from him is met with her being against him (generally) or her thinking he is a fool.

 

and if you dont think rand lost most of his arrogence, why would he apologize to the various factions that he deeply insulted and hurt. Arrogent people never apologize because it is admitting wrongdoing to others.

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As has been quoted numerous times in this thread, Egwene's very first reaction was lets talk about this and plan. Rand refused, said he would see her at the FoM and bounced. All I'm saying is let's wait and see what she will do instead of making definititve statements like "she is going there with her mind already made up with no willingness whatsoever to discuss anything" Just because Egwene is planning against what she views as the wrong course of action, doesn't mean that in the future she won't listen to reason. If Rand finally deigns to talk about what he is going to do(that's assuming Min has figured something out by then) then I'm pretty certain Ewgene would at least hear him out.

 

Certainly, Egwene's first reaction was to ask Rand to talk about it and plan. I see that argument brought up all the time. It's interesting that Rand's response to her request is always forgotten about. He says, "That is why I came to you. To let you plan." Rand tells Egwene he will break the seals, then invites her to plan an alternative to be discussed at Merrilor. So, Egwene knows of Rand's plans, and has been given a month to plan out an alternate method. She has the entirity of the White and Brown Ajahs at her disposal and is in the best possible position to come up with a different plan. Instead, from what we have seen from her numerous POV's, she focuses on gathering rulers to her side to oppose Rand. You might say that Rand has no plan, but then neither does Egwene and Rand specifically told her that he was giving her time to come up with one.

 

Naturally, all will be revealed next book and we shouldn't jump to conclusions, but from the evidence we have so far I would be very surprised if Egwene was going to Merrilor with a totally open mind.

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