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lilltempest

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  1. Or to break him to her will, which we've seen happen at least once. And, since no one really thinks anything about Merise's self-declared habit of breaking her Warders' wills completely, it is likely that it isn't too abnormal. Once the Warder is broken, he will be content in his role, much like damane are once their sul'dam break them.
  2. Source needed. Btw what "fallacy" exactly would you be referring to above? <removed>. However, since you insist on pursuing with this one nitpick, I will put it this way: Show me a source that shows most Warders be treated as equals. Hell, show me multiple sources where they're treated as equals - and I do not mean "junior partners", I mean equals - where their voices carry as much weight with their leash holder as the leash holder's voice - and prove me wrong. <removed>. Unless you can prove otherwise, my opinion that they are never treated as equals (other than Birgitte, who is still treated as "less than" Elayne and has to defer to her almost always), stands.
  3. Which makes the below claim somehwat odd. You do see the logical fallacy in your opinion correct? [Removed] It is my opinion, from what I have deduced from observing the AS/Warder relationships in the series and from the nature of the bond - - i.e., a woman bonding a man and being able to use the bond to control him completely and/or suck every last ounce of life out of him at will (this means, in simple terms, that the woman holds the man's life in her hands and that she can cause him to die at any time she decides to do so - and to make things clear, I am not saying that an AS would do that, just that she has the power to do so, much like slaveowners could have done to slaves long ago) - - and the fact that the Warders are, quite clearly, with the exception of Birgitte, who is far from a standard example of a Warder for a many reasons (which I will list in simple and easy to understand terms for you if you feel this, too, is a "logical fallacy" and that, instead, she is somehow a great example of a typical Warder) never treated as equals and, many times, not even treated as partners, but rather as hired hands (which, as far as I know are not guaranteed to receive a salary unless their AS decides to give them one,, which makes them wards of the women who bonded them, sort of like children or pets or, hmm, perhaps human property...which, in history, has normally been referred to as an indentured servant or slave. Now, let's look at what we've got - Warders live at their bondholder's will and can die at her will...they are never treated as equals...some might get paid, some might have to ask their AS for things they want/need, and some, like Narishma only get what their bondholders decide they can have. I'll be generous here and say that soldiers live at their superiors' will and can be sent to their death at their superiors' wills as well, but unless they're receiving a set salary on a regular basis, we can rule out labeling them as soldiers. Understand so far? Additionally, AS have the ability to use the bond the same way humans use a leash for dogs - i.e., they can force their will on the Warder. Whether they do so or not, the way Merise did to Lan, is beside the point. The bond is a leash/collar combination and it can be used to remove the Warder's free will and make him do something he does not wish to do. You can put a choke collar on the dog and not use it to hurt him, but the point is that the power to do so is there. The control is there. End of story. So, then, taking this into consideration, at best, Warders are pets. If they are like Narishma, where not only are they not allowed free will, but they are also denied the very human expectation to own any property (unless, of course, it comes from Merise's hand, in which case he only owns the property until Merise decides he isn't allowed to have it anymore), and suffer physical and mental humiliation when they fail to do as their bondholder wishes, then I would consider them less than pets (since I have never treated a dog the way Merise treats Narishma and never would because I have no desire to break a dog's spirit) and would consider them, at best, indentured servants. However... Since indentured servants were, in theory, only required to accept enslavement for a set period of time, and a slave was expected to be a slave for life unless his/her owner decided to release him or her - and since Warders are expected to be bound for life - then the ones who are treated as less than pets are not indentured servants at all and are, instead, slaves. Now, if you choose to believe that all Warders are these great, strong men who will stand up to their AS with no fear and who are treated by their AS as respected and valued partners (outside of the Greens who love to use their Warders as human vibrators), then bully for you. I inferred, from your response to me, that you agreed with the statement that we have not seen enough Warder POVs to really know how most of them feel, which means your assumptions are just that...assumptions. As I explained above, in great detail, my opinions are based on the nature of the bond as well as what I've read. If that's not good enough for you, and you wish to continue to insist that your opinion is correct and anyone who disagrees with you is "illogical", then have fun with that because, now that I've explained why I have the opinion I do, I'm done. But, since Barid said it so well, and since he also gave an RJ quote that leaves one to question just how great being a Warder would be considering he himself, the man who understood what was involved far more than you or I, stated he would never agree to it. However, RJ's willingness or unwillingness is not exactly an indication one way or another. It depends on who he would want to be a warder to, and each person is different in what they would tolerate, and we all know RJ had some peculiar notions. In any case, putting that aside, I think it's an individual case-by-case thing. Each Warder is treated differently, sometimes in huge degrees. The 'official' purpose of Warder is more or less a personal guard. They are certainly the lesser partner. To what degree depends on the Aes Sedai. Some relationships I find distasteful. Others are respectable. Still others I wouldn't be up for, but have no issues with because the man chose and is fine with it. As a group they are called 'Warders' but I don't really think they can be classified as a group, since each bond is a personal thing. Now, the Bond itself is a different problem. The implications and uses of the Bond are horrendous. Of course, they have the choice not to use these advantages, however, on an impersonal level, the possibilities make the Bond a monstrous weave that shouldn't be used on anyone. Even though most of the Aes Sedai wouldn't go to the extremes - nobody should have that kind of power over another person on principle. And this was exactly my original point. The bond, in and of itself, is a vile thing that enslaves a human being to another human being. An AS could be the nicest, most pleasant person in the universe, who would never use the bond to its fullest extent, but the very fact that the ability to do so exists makes the whole thing flat out repulsive.
  4. Nyn and Lan are definitely not master and slave, but I think a lot of the balance in their relationship is due to Nynaeve's desire to honor their marriage vows, which, if you remember, specifically stated that the one who is in charge in public is the one who must obey in private. Do I think Lan would've been a stupid lapdog to her once they were married? Probably not, but he was always very passive with women. When he did want something opposed to what Mo wanted, he became passive-aggressive (teaching Rand how to approach the Amyrlin as a Warder would rather than, the way Mo and Siuan would've wanted it, as a supplicant). The only time he really went off on her was when she rubbed his face in the fact that she was handing him over to another woman as a pet when she died, and that was because he was, quite rightly, irate about it. I think, in general, she treated him with far more respect than any other AS treated her Warder, and even so, she treated him like a servant or guard dog, at best. I think the problem with analyzing this whole thing is that we very rarely saw a Warder's POV. All we can do is guess, using the interactions between AS and Warders we have seen throughout the series as a basis for what we believe. Personally, I find the nature of the bond repulsive. It's one thing if these women asked men to be their "shields" without the OP aspect of it to basically leash them, but they are, in effect, leashed once they are bonded since the women can kill them at will and control them with Compulsion if it suits them. Giving that kind of power over someone to women with inflated egos (and the belief that everyone who isn't an AS is just a pawn on the board to be sacrificed or controlled on their whims) is a mistake. If the AS bonded men the way Avi and Elayne were bonded together, without one person being completely and undeniably dominant over the other, then it might not be so bad. And, if the bonded AM all did what Androl did to Pevara, I wouldn't have a problem with that either, though I still don't like the fact that, if one dies, the other one might fall completely apart at the seams. It honestly seems like soul rape to me, and is definitely soul rape in the bond where Alanna bonded Rand without permission. That was soul rape, pure and simple, and I found her to be as evil as any DF from then on, especeiially since she showed no remorse for it. I hope before she died she suffered rape, be it physical, mental or emotional, so she understood what she had done to Rand by forcing a bond on him then trying to use it to control him.
  5. No, I think the seafolk reaction to teachers are nuts. But I don't recall seeing any other teachers on screen to compare how bad the treatment is. We know from the gift of passage that AS are treated differently than other people, because the seafolk are scsred of being discovered. The situation's also a little different because normal teachers can leave but the AS are stuck Exactly. However they treat other teachers, the Seafolk fear and distrust the AS too much to give them an inch and they have very valid reasons for feeling that way.
  6. So why are there so many candidates for the job and why do most of those who become Warders stay for life even though RJ said that the usual practice is to release them from the bond if they ask for it? Masochism? Not sure where you get the "with the exception of Lan, none of them would ever stand up to their Aes Sedai". Birgitte did it all the time. One of the BA from Liandrin's coven had to run away from her warder because he wanted to kill her because he suspected she was a Darkfriend. Hell, even Gawyn did to a degree. You want an honest opinion as to why there are so many candidates for the job? Boys are stupid. Promise them super stamina, a job where they get to appear badass, and a woman (you can't tell me some of them don't see the Warder/AS bond thing as a promise for sex, especially if they get bonded by a Green) and they'll hop the train with no concern as to where it leads. Hell, even the AS admit that Warders don't know what they're signing up for when they agree or ask to be bonded, so the women know the men are getting a raw deal; they just don't care. Not all boys are stupid, of course, as proven by some of Gawyn's crowd who decided they would rather be soldiers than AS lapdog/slaves, but the ones who get a light in their eyes when they think about how badass Warders seem to be are too blinded by the promise of glory to pay attention to anything else. As for the rest, I figure there are a few main reasons the men stay for life and don't ask to be released: masochism (which you listed...and Narishma is a submissive masochist to the extreme, for example), honor (they gave their word and won't quit because they learned it wasn't what they thought it would be), and, in my opinion, the bond itself. We already know the bond provides a 'connection' that is so intense that it might be difficult to imagine not having it, even if the situation sucks. Additionally, I've always been of the opinion that one of the things that is kept hidden about the bond (it was stated in an earlier book that no one knew exactly what the AS got from the bond, and though we learned one of the things she gets is the ability to suck his life dry until he's a freaking corpse, I doubt that is the only thing). The fact that almost all Warders have a feeling of pride for being a Warder and feel protective of it as much as they feel protective of their mistresses, screams to me that it is something that is initiated or reinforced by the bond itself. There are, of course, anomalies... And Birgitte is one of those. That is the only Warder bond that is woman-woman, so I don't think her reaction to the bond, and her treatment of Elayne, are good indicators as to how Warders stand up to their AS "all the time". Yes, she does it, but comparing her and Elayne to other Warders and their AS is like comparing apples to fish...they are completely different species. The BA bonded Warder is another anomaly, due to the fact that the woman was Shadowsworn and the man was not. He was, apparently, strong-minded enough to want to do what was right, but I think it was the emotional and instinctual drive to oppose the Shadow that gave him the will (and, therefore, the ability) to oppose her. Edit - added spoiler tags AMOL spoilers
  7. Which, let's be honest, isn't a very realistic outlook. What kind of culture regards being a teacher as being just short of a deckhand, and actually seems to find it shaming? I always took the Sea Folk's position on the Aes Sedai teachers as a defense mechanism more than anything else. I mean, really, if you and your people had managed to avoid WT entanglements for pretty much ever and you got the opportunity to learn from them, knowing how they always march in and take over and turn everyone into obedient lapdogs (be it from bullying or manipulation), would you want to take any chances that your entire race ends up being controlled by the WT? I sure as hell wouldn't. I'd want to make sure the "teachers" knew their place and that they would not be taking over or manipulating my people at all, and would want to go out of my way to make them fear us instead of the other way around. Additionally, the Sea Folk knew the AS would somehow end up stealing every last channeler from them given half a chance, and wanted to nip that in the bud. The scene where they abused Nynaeve irritated me to no end, and I find most of the Sea Folk detestable, but I can't blame them for wanting to get the upper hand with the AS...otherwise, they would've ended up obeying the AS and jumping when the bloody women clapped.
  8. They're slaves, pure and simple. Some AS treat their Warder-slaves better than others, but the fact remains that there is no way to represent this one-sided, Aes Sedai always the boss, relationship as a partnership. At best, they're dogs, but I would never treat a dog like Merise and others treat their Warders. There are a handful of Warders that I see as still having a backbone (like Lan), but with the exception of Lan, none of them would ever stand up to their Aes Sedai, so they're all pretty much broken to their owners' leashes. To the rest of the world, they would seem more like guard dogs - think of the dogs you pay to have trained to rip out someone's throat should you be attacked or give the order to do so - but seeing it from the 'inside' makes them slaves in my book. It disgusts me.
  9. There were things he did that annoyed me throughout the series, but there are only four that made me want to slap him so hard his teeth would have rattled: 1. His dismissal of the BT and leaving those men (and their families) at Taim's mercy. My annoyance at him over this grew after Logain showed up and tried to tell him what was going on and he dismissed it as Logain being jealous. Trusting Taim more than Logain was pure idiocy on his part. 2. Selling 47 Asha'man into a lifetime of slavery to Aes Sedai simply because he didn't have the stones to stand up to Egwene and lay the blame for the bonded women at the WT's feet due to their outright declaration of war against the BT and everyone there. Yes, the orders Elaida has issued - to gentle and hang every man there (apparently even the ones who couldn't channel) - had been destroyed by Logain but he could've easily ordered his two snotnosed twitty warders to tell the truth about the situation. As far as I am concerned, at the point he decided that he deserved no loyalty at all from any man who could channel. 3. When he allowed Elayne and the other two to bond him, knowing that if any one of them died the snapped bond could kill him or drive him even crazier. 4. Not telling Cadsuane to treat him with respect, and to never lay a hand on him again, or to GTF out. And, furthermore, to follow through on the threat. I would love to see what she would've said to that, and if she'd follow his rules or leave him alone. Ah, I remembered one more...so there are five... 5. Not balefiring Semirhage into oblivion after she destroyed his hand. Or, at the very least, not ordering her execution. He could have saved himself a great deal of pain, and earned more respect from those around him, if he'd just done away with the bloody woman.
  10. <removed> I am breaking my self-imposed rule of avoiding responding to you altogether, and I know I will regret it, but I have to ask... Why, exactly, do you think she threw that suggestion out there if not to protect the White Tower, and ultimately, her own interests? You can twist it, if you'd like, and say that it was to protect the world - better the devil you know, so to speak - but the fact remains that she did suggest it and had to have had reasons for it. Since she truly believes that the world can't function without AS pulling strings, it stands to reason that it had something to do with the fact that she told the Dragon Reborn that perhaps he should TAINT SAIDIN ALL OVER AGAIN AFTER HE RISKED HIS EFFING LIFE TO CLEANSE IT! <removed>
  11. I agree with you on her meeting with Tuon. Much like a multitude of other scenes, on character was turned into a bumbling idiot in order to make the other character appear badass and awesome (most of the time, that did not work on me, except when it was an underdog getting some back at an annoying prig of a character). I don't think Tuon was the type to turn into a moron simply because Egwene raised her chin and looked superior, not when Tuon had been raising her chin and looking superior (while plotting to drive a knife in someone) for most of her life. She has far more experience at that crap. If anything, the meeting should've simply given Tuon some food for thought, rather than making her (just like everyone else Egwene decides to stomp down) look like Egwene's bitch. As for the Rand/Egwene thing, I thought the same as you, more so with Rand than with Egwene. However, I went back and re-read the book and I guess distance gave me a bit of perspective, or at least I managed to come up with an explanation. There are certain people in your life, or that you meet throughout your life, that affect you the same way you would be affected by having a cheesegrater dragged across your skin (or the reaction you have when someone rakes their nails down a chalkboard, or whatever sound/feeling you find most irritating). Hell, I've met one of those people on this very board (and no, fionwe, it's not you, though sometimes I think battling you with those foam covered bats would be a great deal of fun so I could beat you in the head a bit :P). The point is, there are people we encounter who grate on us and who cause us to turn into a defiant, loud-mouthed jerk simply because we can't stand them and if they say up, we want to say down even when we know they're right. I'm sure some people will deny it, but it is simply human and everyone behaves that way on occasion, be it due to being around an annoyance or being stuck in a situation that simply grates on our nerves. Unless you slip into what my mother aptly named "robot mode" to avoid showing emotion, it's going to happen sooner or later. I think that sums up Rand and Egwene's reaction to each other. They may have once been friends, they may have once been promised to each other, but they were always like oil and water - they simply don't mix, and they don't bring out the best in each other, but rather, more often than not, the worst. In that context, the scene between the two of them, with Egwene being a self-righteous overbearing bitch and Rand acting like an adolescent having a hissy fit and stomping out in a fit of anger, makes perfect sense. Had Egwene never been Amyrlin, and Rand never the Dragon Reborn, they might have been able to grow enough to deal with each other reasonably, but their positions ensured that neither of them would budge an inch. This was not a meeting between friends, or even allies. It was a meeting between a woman who saw herself as the Creator's hand dealing with a man who knew if, he gave even an inch, she would run over him and he would be forced to go to the Last Battle her way rather than on his own terms (and her throwing out the "do it the same way, at least we know how to deal with insane male channelers so it's no big deal" idea did not help matters at all, and made it clear to him that she only cared about her power and the WT's position as rulers of the world). So, really, the scene is perfectly believable. That's not to say that the characters did not behave erratically - they did, in other ways - but this scene fit, in my opinion.
  12. This, a thousand times over. If you look at the scene where he shows up to the WT, it sort of mirrors the scene where Cadsuane marched into Rand's "throne room" and made him lose his cool, and the more I think about it, the more I think it was intentional. First, it showed that Rand had, indeed, grown, and that he was in control of himself (something he lacked when Caddy walked in and practically poked him in the eye after proverbially spitting in his face). Second, it showed that Rand had learned the game, the very game Egwene learned to master almost immediately after watching Moiraine stick her nose up in the air and be mysterious, only sharing what she thought others needed to know (something Egwene was still doing at that point and thought was fine, as long as she was the one controlling information and the one with the upper hand). The scene had things that added more layers as well, such as Rand being shielded and being treated extremely hostilely, whereas Cadsuane might have been treated with hostility but she was not shielded and knew Rand could not hurt her thanks to her ornaments. Rand seemed confident, and his ta'veren nature might have protected him had Egwene really tried to take him into custody, but he could not have known that, so it is even more of a testament to how much he had grown that he remained so calm when he had an entire Tower of women who were so obviously against him. As you said, Rand's reluctance to have a proper discussion was likely due to the circumstances - ability to emit calm or not, their treatment of him was ridiculously hostile, and that includes Egwene's treatment of him as Amyrlin. Plus, he needed to speak to an equal and he could not do that in Egwene's throneroom with her up on a pedestal and him practically bound and chained before her with her treating him as though he were a supplicant rather than the Dragon Reborn and, in the past, a friend. But he needed to get her attention, he needed to get her to come to *him*, and the only way to do that was to pull a Cadsuane...walk into her inner sanctum, poke her in the eye to get her attention while showing that he had no fear of her or her minions (which made her and them off balanced) then march out. Cadsuane would've been proud of him, I believe. The scene also showed something about Egwene, and about what Cadsuane would've really wanted from him. I'll be the first one to say I have never liked Egwene and my dislike of her character only grew with each successive novel. However, overlooking her detestable thoughts in this scene (for example, how she considered doing just what she blasted Elaida for trying, i.e., kidnapping Rand and forcing him under her authority), she behaved about as well as could be expected from anyone in this scene. For the most part, she remained calm and maintained her air of authority, and it was only when he really poked her in the eye with the seals that she started to lose it. Even then, she did not turn into a ranting, raving maniac like Rand would have done only days before. She just got understandably pissy and tried to get the upper hand back by insisting he couldn't leave without asking permission first, and he basically won that with her as well, by telling her not to make him defy her in "her house". I don't think the queen of cold, Cadsuane, could've handled the situation with any more grace and calm than Egwene, and that says something. That said, I think the fact that it mirrors the Rand/Cadsuane scene also reminds us of something else - no matter how cool you think you are, there will be situations (and people) who can get under your skin and throw you off balance. We get reminded time and again throughout the series that, despite the fact that Aes Sedai like to present themselves as equals to the Creator, they are, in the end, human. They have human feelings (some of them, anyway!) and human reactions. Training yourself to never show emotion, no matter what happens, can never ensure that you can maintain a calm facade in 100% of all situations. Egwene had gotten to the point where she and, more importantly, the readers, believed her to be completely unflappable and that nothing could ever get under her skin, thereby putting her in the 'top dog' position no matter the situation. I think this scene was a bit of a reminder that, no matter how awesome some readers think she is, she's human, just like Rand.
  13. Indeed, as I said above she set the WT to studying the situation in the archives and they found: AMoL Two things about this reference... First, I've seen numerous people blast Rand for not sharing information with Egwene, but I wonder if those people see anything wrong with the fact that she failed to share this bit of info with him. She certainly saw no problem ramming her dream down his throat as evidence that the seals should not be broken, so why not share this, as well as the fact that the sisters who found it came to the conclusion that the seals have to be broken but didn't think they should be broken immediately. Additionally, since other sisters found the info and read it - and came to the same conclusion - then those sisters could have easily passed that info along to someone like, say, Cadsuane or Nynaeve (someone Rand trusts and would listen to if she presented the info to him), so Egwene wasn't exactly the end-all-be-all of necessity that some people like to pretend. In fact, I think Rand would've entrusted the seals to Nyn without a thought. Egwene would never have agreed, of course, because she thinks Rand is somehow mind-controlling Nyn to keep her from agreeing with every foul thing Egwene utters about him. As far as the damage done by balefire, Brandon was quoted as saying that damage would've eventually healed once the DO was locked away again, so that wasn't really 'necessary' except as a means to get Egwene out of the picture so the 4th age could begin without a wannabe world dictator (who would never be able to negotiate with the Seanchan due to her hatred of them and had no intention of treating the Asha'man as anything but enemies or Warders-to-be) in charge of the WT. So there goes reason number two that she was so irreplaceable for the Last Battle. I know I won't change anyone's mind, anymore than the Egwene lovers will change mine, but that's how I see it. It's in the text. How you interpret it is dependent on whether you think Egwene is awesome or you think she's little better than Elaida (and just as much of a despot).
  14. Logain, without hesitation. My second choice would be Rand, I suppose, after Dragonmount. That seemed to get him to take his balls out of the jar all the women kept them in and put them back where they belonged, along with his spine. Third, either Perrin or Davram Bashere. Honorable mention: Moridin. I'd love to have discussions on philosophy and life with that man.
  15. The spankings normally don't give off a kinky vibe to me. What does give me a kinky vibe about this series is all the D/s stuff. Everything is always about dominating others and forcing them to your will. There is, generally, never a sense of cooperation with the characters..it's all about "winning" and being able to force them into submission. The huge D/s vibe between Egwene and Nyn (Eg tried to break her with the attempted rape in TAR, then tried to force a drink down her throat to add insult to injury, and she continued that dominating attitude until the very end of the series with her) bothered me, as did Egwene's D/s attitude toward Rand and every other man she was around. Her relationship with Gawyn really bothered me, despite what a worthless sack of whining crap he was. Tylin's rape of Mat bothered me even more, because that wasn't just kinky, it was sick. If that storyline had been reversed, with a man holding a woman at knifepoint and forcing her to have sex with him, while denying her food and drink if she did not "behave", everyone would have been throwing fits over it. Instead, RJ and Harriett thought it was funny. Sorry, people, it's not funny. I think RJ was a closet sub, personally. He seemed to love having women dominate and control men, abuse them physically and emotionally, and having the men submit or be humiliated into going along with the woman.
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