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DRAGONMOUNT

A WHEEL OF TIME COMMUNITY

Manscher

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Everything posted by Manscher

  1. Because removing the focus point of a resistance would prove to those who haven't picked side, that there is in fact something to resist.
  2. True, but have those ideas not always been associated with their station, rather than their ability to Channel? That aside, I suppose if a Darkfriend did think those lines, he/her wouldn't have used common folk, but something much more insulting.
  3. One of the general themes of Darkfriend channelers, is that they think them self above non channelers. And therefore superior.
  4. They did get some vital information. So I would hardly call it repetition of what we already know. And yes, BS tweeted the link not long ago.
  5. "Above common folk" Sounds like something a Darkfriend would think.
  6. My mistake, I didn't specifically think of A song when I said The Song, but rather the Talent of singing to the land, as the Aiel, Ogiers and Nyms did back in AoL. Which also seems to be what the Tinkers are looking for, not a specific song but rather the Talent.
  7. Fairly sure that one wasn't mentioned until TSR. During Lanfear and Rands conversation in his bedchamber
  8. Day 30: Rand strode forward, lifting his arms out to the sides. Grass sprouted in waves, red blossoms burst from the ground like a blush upon the land. The storm stilled, the dark clouds burned away by light. A joyful song, a song of awe and wonder, though she could not understand the words. Seems like those speculating that The Song will be important for the Last Battle, might have been onto something ^^
  9. Day 24: "There were many good years. Good decades, good centuries. We believed we were living in paradise. Perhaps that was our downfall. We wanted our lives to be perfect, so we ignored imperfections. Problems were magnified through inattention, and war might have become inevitable if the Bore hadn't ever been made." Most likely Rand, but I could imagine one of the Forsaken musing over his/her decision to swap to the Darkside.
  10. Valan Luca being the true Dragon Reborn and The Captain of The Riverserpent being some sort of Messenger from the Creator and/or Immortal Soul springs to mind.
  11. Nice post DaoineSidhe, some points I hadn't thought of at all. And I agree with Cadsuanes quick recovery, it just goes to prove how experienced and well disciplined she is, she realized her mistake and quickly regained controls. Was about to say the same. It started to go a bit in circles and neither sides wants to budget. Suppose we'll have to agree to disagree on the matter.
  12. First part, true, my bad. As for the "cooly asking", that doesn't really say much when we are talking about Aes Sedai in a none Aes Sedai PoV. She didn't blink the previous chances, because as pointed out, she was in the middle of a fight, and the stress from her "failure" in keeping the Bands hidden and Rand exiling her, hadn't kicked in yet. She went to Sorilea earlier in the book to admit to failure, and they then came up with this plan, which have a very "Last gambit" vibe to it, whether that is true or not we wont know. But it did fail, and she did react in a way she wouldn't normally. As for the part about her being disgusted about using the One Power. Perrin was disgusted with himself when he tortured the Aiel Prisoner, another scenario with a person under extreme duress. Rand was disgusted with himself for killing that DF woman in TDR, again a person under duress doing things they don't like to do. So that argument is rather invalid in this very situation, as she is under extreme pressure and does not act rational.
  13. Why doesn't the other example fit? She decides to fire Balefire, in broad daylight, in the middle of Ebou Dar at Nynaeve. She then afterwards realize what she has done, and that it is completely out of character for her to do such a rash thing. And "well she is human and anything is possible" is hardly our argument. We've pointed out that she is under extreme pressure, and that while she is a remarkable woman, she's not without a breaking point. So that when her very last attempt at "saving" the Rand and the world seems to have gone wrong. She first calmly ask Tam if he stuck to the script, to which he replies that yes, he did, and it didn't work. So he went off script and mentioned her name, which made Rand explode. So not only did Tam not use the script that Cadsuane had told him to do, he also went and spoke her name, another thing he wasn't supposed to do. Is it really then so hard to believe that even Cadsuane, might snap and act out of character? Especially when considering the tone in which Tam spoke with her.
  14. Not sure if I would laugh or cry if one of Felixs crazy theories turned out to be true.
  15. Sigh. I really wish people would stop creating straw men. I've never once said anything like that. Again you can say well "anything can happen" in relation to just about whatever you like in the books. If it is totally out of character and goes against all of RJ's notes on Cads and textual evidence it just isn't particularly compelling. I see you all have completely given up on trying to show support for your opinion besides holding on to this last thin blade of grass. Just let go man, we know what happened in Asmodeans story. As for RJ's quotes I wouldn't be surprised if that is what it said as that is almost exactly how Brandon wrote it. About the same length and as blunty too. ;) Neverthless it would not happened to stop from hearing the truth and that is part of how she was dumbed down and made into a caricature of herself. No offense, but you are the one holding onto the last straws. We've given plenty of arguments as to why Cadsuanes reaction in that specific scene is reasonable and probable. Yet you keep denying it because it does not fit with the textual description of how Cadsuane is. We even brought up another incident of a character who acts unexpectantly because of human factors, which you then proceed to ignore the textual evidence of such things happening. Is the scene well written and was the full potential of the confrontation utilized? Most likely not, but it doesn't change that the her reaction was perfectly reasonable. Cadsuane isn't super human.
  16. Yep, I edited because I read it further, and while she is afraid because Moridin might find out. The fact is she still think to herself that she acted out of character. By attacking in broad daylight where everybody can sense and see. I shall quote once again. So yes, she is afraid, because Moridin might find out because of this. It still doesn't change the fact that she acted outside of her normal behaviour, because of her hatred to Nynaeve.
  17. The quote flatout states she acted out of character, that she didn't strike from a dim places as per usual, but that she did openly where everybody could see and sense it. She wasn't afraid of having gone against Moridins orders, she was afraid he found out, because she did it in such a public way.
  18. I disagree, these are still human beings, not aliens or robots. So expecting them to react human, seems like the logical way to go about it.There is no textual evidence of Cadsuane thinking or doing this, as we simply don't enough about her. What we do have however, is Moghediens actions in A Crown of Swords, which is another character who is dead set in a specific way of approaching things, and yet she acts out of character when she attacks Nynaeve. Did I say anything else? I agree it's a defining moment of her life, that have help shaped how she thinks and handle things. But it also shows that there was a time she didn't think that way. There was a time she approached things differently. So I ask again, how is it so hard for some of you, to accept that Cadsuane is just a human being, with regular human emotions and reactions? As I pointed out, I didn't have the book at hand to check up on it, it was a matter of remembering wrong, not making things up. Or should I perhaps start to claim Fionwe made things up earlier as well, when he misremembered Moghediens scene? @Yonyi0 Of course none of us have reached that amount of pressure that Cadsuane can handle. And that is not my argument either, my argument is that no human being is beyond these reactions. Difference is simply how much you can handle. This event was what topped it for Cadsuane.
  19. On top of my head, Moghedien who takes a shoot at Nynaeve in Ebou Dar in broad daylight. Once Moghedien realize what she has done, she realized it was completely out of character for her, and she panics and flee the scene. So yes, even RJ made characters act unexpectedly in special situations. Wait... Moghedien who strikes from the shadows at her enemies struck her enemy from a hidden location, and she thus acted out of character? Which she didn't, she attacked in the middle of a city, during the day. And then it proceeds to describe how she is sprinting away from the scene, screaming at her lackeys to get the hell out of there.
  20. On top of my head, Moghedien who takes a shoot at Nynaeve in Ebou Dar in broad daylight. Once Moghedien realize what she has done, she realized it was completely out of character for her, and she panics and flee the scene. So yes, even RJ made characters act unexpectedly in special situations.
  21. I fail to see how using human behaviours as a reasoning for actions is logical fallacies. In fact, for me it seems like a rather logical conclusion to the whole situation, that she would strike out as she did. Only difference is you base your logic upon what have happened earlier in the books, while I base my logic upon general human behaviours. Mine is just as valid as yours, regardless of how inconvenient said logic is for your arguments. As for the "What must be endured, can be endured", we know this is a thing she learned from the Wilder, meaning she didn't believe so before she ran into her and was taught a lesson. In other words, there was a time where she didn't believe in this in the same way. We also know that in hear 300 years, there hasn't been an impossible task(Can't remember the exact quote) and she wouldn't let this one be either. Now her very last attempt failed, meaning for the first time since the Wilder, she has failed. She is brought back to a state from before she adopted that ideology.
  22. See, I think that is the issue Suttree, it seems like you wont accept any sort of character behaviour unless the notes or texts that RJ wrote explicitly says so. While me and Skalors3 argue that, Cadsuane, as a human being, isn't above such actions. It isn't something that we can prove through the text, because we frankly don't have enough knowledge about her at all. The closest thing we can come to it, is her thoughts about her being disabused of certain notions by that Wilder right after attaining her shawl, which proves that she wasn't always this flawless. As I've lend out my books to a friend, I can't really look up the correct quote regarding this.
  23. See YoniyO's comments and all those I made. If you want to make the argument that all the evidence and values she thinks are most important get tossed out the window in that paragraph that's fine. It's jut not very convincing and you would be far better served finding anywhere of evidence in world to support it. Well "anything can happen" she snapped is not compelling evidence for someone who literally has already faced ending the world without blinking.Evidence? Fine. Some years ago I did my draft period in the army(semi mandatory thing in Denmark). During a field exercise, perhaps one of the calmest and most down to earth guys in our platoon, completely exploded and began pushing our Lieutenant while screaming and yelling over a rather menial thing. Why? Because we've had gone for nearly 3 days without sleep or food, in freaking winter rain. So yes, people do lash out in ways that is not normal to them if they are pushed hard enough. Cadsuane is no exception, no matter how awesome she is. And why she would reach for the Power? Instincts, it's in a Channelers instinct to reach out with the Source, and using the Power to punish somebody isn't beyond Cadsuane, she has used it as a whip on Rand to make him behave properly, doing something similar to Rands dad isn't that far fetched.
  24. We do Suttree? With how a person react in real life. Remember my comment about seeing her above human emotions? You all seem to deny the fact that Cadsuane would have such a basic human reaction as to lash out aggressively.
  25. Sure it isn't the forums itself? It's been acting up quite a bit lately. Anyhow, as for the straw man thing, I stated those things because I've once before brought up this point, and it was just brushed aside by the critics, without any sort of counter argument for it. So I decided to be a bit provocative this time around and conclude that clearly some of you must consider her above human emotions if you didn't think my point valid. Regards to the other, we have to consider that we are seeing this scene from Min and we know Aes Sedai are extremely good at keeping emotions hidden away from others. So we really have no idea what Cadsuanes state of mind is at that moment. What we do know is that she previously in the book was frustrated about her inability to teach Rand how to laugh and cry, and that she had been forced to hide herself from Rand, which we know was an annoyance to her, and to work by proxies. Oh and don't forget we are talking about the faith of the entire world here. So naturally all of this builds up pressure. This puts her in a perfect state of mind for the abrupt explosion we saw. So when she asks Tam if he had used the exact words that she herself had prepared, which Tam did at first, but as it wasn't working, he went off script, which resulted in Rands meltdown. Tam didn't do exactly as Cadsuane said, a downside of working through others. This is the last drop that made it all overflow, and she resorted to an aggressive and violent act. Could there had been more talk and dialogue as a build up for this? Perhaps, but that isn't a characterization issue. Her actions were perfectly understandable and human. EDIT: Really hate how it seems to forget linebreaks when you post from the quick reply.
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