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Wtf egwene?


tyanth
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Egwene is as reckless as he is. If it weren't for Cadsuane there'd still be a taint on Saidin because he would've gotten himself killed. The main difference between Rand and Egwene is he was going insane because he didn't know who he could trust but I do see Rand's faults.

As to Perrin, if it were a trap in Egwene's mind, she should've thrown fire at him. She knew it was him and tried to get him killed.

She is doing what Rand wants by gathering leaders but she needed to have those feelings originally. Rand can't put them in there, and he didn't act crazy. She assumed he was crazy and didn't ask questions. I wonder if Rand will have to use the True Power because I wouldn't put it past Egwene to shield him.

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and he didn't act crazy. She assumed he was crazy and didn't ask questions.

 

 

She tried to get Rand to discuss it. He was the one who refused.

 

ToM

 

"You can't break the seals," Egwene said. "That would risk letting the Dark One free."

"A risk we must take. Clear away the rubble. The Bore must be opened fully again before it can be sealed.

"We must talk about this, she said. "Plan"

"That is why I came to you. To let you plan." He seemed amused.

 

The he says he must take his leave and to not try and stop him. No further discussion on the matter.

 

Let's see...waltz into the WT, going to set DO free, she hasn't seen him in how long and isn't sure how much the taint has set in. Yeah no reason to think anyone might be slightly off there.

Edited by Suttree
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and he didn't act crazy. She assumed he was crazy and didn't ask questions.

 

 

She tried to get Rand to discuss it. He was the one who refused.

 

ToM

 

"You can't break the seals," Egwene said. "That would risk letting the Dark One free."

"A risk we must take. Clear away the rubble. The Bore must be opened fully again before it can be sealed.

"We must talk about this, she said. "Plan"

"That is why I came to you. To let you plan." He seemed amused.

 

The he says he must take his leave. No further discussion on the matter.

 

Not quite. He said they would talk about it at the FoM. The discussion would take place there. However Egwene is not going with the intention to discuss, she is going with the intention to oppose.

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and he didn't act crazy. She assumed he was crazy and didn't ask questions.

 

 

She tried to get Rand to discuss it. He was the one who refused.

 

ToM

 

"You can't break the seals," Egwene said. "That would risk letting the Dark One free."

"A risk we must take. Clear away the rubble. The Bore must be opened fully again before it can be sealed.

"We must talk about this, she said. "Plan"

"That is why I came to you. To let you plan." He seemed amused.

 

The he says he must take his leave. No further discussion on the matter.

 

Not quite. He said they would talk about it at the FoM. The discussion would take place there. However Egwene is not going with the intention to discuss, she is going with the intention to oppose.

 

 

Errmm so yeah, no further discussion on it until a later date. The point made above still holds. So we'll talk about it later, hopefully Min will have figured summat out by then. That sounds much better!

Edited by Suttree
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As to Perrin, if it were a trap in Egwene's mind, she should've thrown fire at him. She knew it was him and tried to get him killed.

 

What are you talking about? She was trying to protect him. She was planing on taking him to safety, but he freed himself first. Letting someone who accidentally dreamed himself there or found a male dreamer ter'angnel run around on a battlefield would be asking him to get himself killed. Look at how long Nicol lasted.

 

 

She is doing what Rand wants by gathering leaders but she needed to have those feelings originally. Rand can't put them in there, and he didn't act crazy. She assumed he was crazy and didn't ask questions. I wonder if Rand will have to use the True Power because I wouldn't put it past Egwene to shield him.

 

He walked into the white tower, refused to be checked for his sanity, started talking philosophy and announced that he was doing the one thing they had to prevent. If we weren't regularly inside his head we would think he was insane as well.

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and he didn't act crazy. She assumed he was crazy and didn't ask questions.

 

 

She tried to get Rand to discuss it. He was the one who refused.

 

ToM

 

"You can't break the seals," Egwene said. "That would risk letting the Dark One free."

"A risk we must take. Clear away the rubble. The Bore must be opened fully again before it can be sealed.

"We must talk about this, she said. "Plan"

"That is why I came to you. To let you plan." He seemed amused.

 

The he says he must take his leave. No further discussion on the matter.

 

Not quite. He said they would talk about it at the FoM. The discussion would take place there. However Egwene is not going with the intention to discuss, she is going with the intention to oppose.

 

 

Errmm so yeah, no further discussion on it until a later date. The point made above still holds. So we'll talk about it later, hopefully Min will have figured summat out by then. That sounds much better!

 

Of course, but why oppose? Why not wait until she knows everything, until she discusses things with Rand at the FoM to decide whether she must oppose Rand or if he is right to break the seals. As it is she has made the choice to oppose without sufficient information, based on a gut reaction to an admitidly bad sounding idea. She should have been able to get past that gut reaction and she hasn't. Which means she is going to look bad when it (probably) turns out that Rand was right and the seals have to be broken.

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As to Perrin, if it were a trap in Egwene's mind, she should've thrown fire at him. She knew it was him and tried to get him killed.

 

What are you talking about? She was trying to protect him. She was planing on taking him to safety, but he freed himself first. Letting someone who accidentally dreamed himself there or found a male dreamer ter'angnel run around on a battlefield would be asking him to get himself killed. Look at how long Nicol lasted.

 

 

She is doing what Rand wants by gathering leaders but she needed to have those feelings originally. Rand can't put them in there, and he didn't act crazy. She assumed he was crazy and didn't ask questions. I wonder if Rand will have to use the True Power because I wouldn't put it past Egwene to shield him.

 

He walked into the white tower, refused to be checked for his sanity, started talking philosophy and announced that he was doing the one thing they had to prevent. If we weren't regularly inside his head we would think he was insane as well.

 

Her later discussion with Nyneave should have put to rest any doubts about his sanity. It also should have made her rethink what Rand told her, like the fact that he could remember LTT's life in full.

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Somehow the fact that he claims to have a dead mans memories might not be a sign of sanity in her eyes. Nor the Fact the Nynarne couldn't remove the taint from him.

 

In her eyes the sanest thing he did was Warn her. She feels he asking her to stop him from destroying the world. She believes in him. Enough to feel that he fighting off insanity enough to ask for her help.

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He walked into the white tower, refused to be checked for his sanity, started talking philosophy and announced that he was doing the one thing they had to prevent. If we weren't regularly inside his head we would think he was insane as well.

 

I don't see how he can be blamed for not wanting to be prodded to 'check his sanity'. Is sounding philosophical really a symptom of being insane? Not when I last checked. Especially when the problem being dealth with is borderline metaphysical, I don't see how sounding philosophical is so off the reservation. Though I agree, sauntering in and saying something that totally goes against conventional wisdom held for millenia is quite a bombshell.

The only complaint I have about Egwene in this situation is that she isn't preparing for the possibility or even the probability that Rand might be wrong, but for the certainty of it. At least that's the way I read it.

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Somehow the fact that he claims to have a dead mans memories might not be a sign of sanity in her eyes. Nor the Fact the Nynarne couldn't remove the taint from him.

 

In her eyes the sanest thing he did was Warn her. She feels he asking her to stop him from destroying the world. She believes in him. Enough to feel that he fighting off insanity enough to ask for her help.

 

Nyneave tells Egwene everything that has happened while she was around Rand, to the point where she leaves Rand to return to the WT. And at that point it's clear that Rand is not insane. There's also what the Wise Ones said about Rand.

 

Obviously I wouldn't fault her for thinking that he is mad when he first tells her, but her conversation with Nyneave should have made it clear that he wasn't. And that's when she should have reconsidered what Rand said.

 

Also if Nyneave is going to mention the taint on Rand's mind, she'd probably also mention the much more intersting thing which is the bright light covering his brain and shielding it from the taint.

 

Egwene said it herself: he sounds sane, it's the things he says (seals must be broken, dead dudes memories) which sound crazy.

Edited by Master Ablar
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He walked into the white tower, refused to be checked for his sanity, started talking philosophy and announced that he was doing the one thing they had to prevent. If we weren't regularly inside his head we would think he was insane as well.

 

I don't see how he can be blamed for not wanting to be prodded to 'check his sanity'. Is sounding philosophical really a symptom of being insane? Not when I last checked. Especially when the problem being dealth with is borderline metaphysical, I don't see how sounding philosophical is so off the reservation. Though I agree, sauntering in and saying something that totally goes against conventional wisdom held for millenia is quite a bombshell.

The only complaint I have about Egwene in this situation is that she isn't preparing for the possibility or even the probability that Rand might be wrong, but for the certainty of it. At least that's the way I read it.

 

Same here. She's already decided that Rand is wrong.

Edited by Master Ablar
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*Spoilers*

 

 

 

Tarmon gai'don is coming so you think its a good idea to rally rands enemies against him? The Aes Sedai failed the dragon in the past and it looks as if they may do so again.

 

I believe i once saw on here that Robert Jordan was credited for having written strong female characters into his books. To me it seems like half the women are arrogant and reckless. Elayne is pregnant and finds it difficult to channel at times so she decides to confront black ajah sisters without telling anyone?

 

I just finished all the books on audio so i can finally visit these forums without worrying about spoilers! :happy:

 

It was what he wanted her to do. And she isn't trying to antagonize him for perks or anything; she's gathering all his support into one place so that he might listen to them better, not to fight against him. And it wasn't that the Aes Sedai failed the Dragon in the past. The Aes Sedai from the Age of Legends were a completely different brand of channelers (they were both male and female for one, and there were no Ajahs). And I think RJ mentioned that it wasn't known for sure if it would have been a good idea for the females to have taken part in Sealing the Dark One : They might have succeeded or saidar might have also been tainted, which would have been disastrous for the world.

 

But I agree partly with the strong females thing. I do think that most of the females are strong in the series, but I find it a little irritating that they're all so convinced they're always right. But I think some of them are likeable anyways, and they have other qualities that make up for the obnoxiousness.

 

She's made it pretty clear that she means to oppose Rand. She hasn't gone to listen to Rand. Egwene may be doing exactly what Rand wanted but that's not an excuse for her doing it. As for fighting him, well I doubt it would come to that but Egwene did say she hoped Rand did not force her hand, so take that as you will.

 

I know that she means to oppose Rand - On his plan to break the seals. Egwene knows that Rand is meant to fight at Tarmon Gaidon, and she's fine with that. She isn't trying to gather a whole bunch of people to smack him down or anything. She has legitimate reasons for gathering all his allies together. She just wants him to know how the rest of them feel about this. I for one think she's perfectly in the right to do this. I think even Darlin said that the more power a man gets, the more his actions must be questioned. Egwene can't just let Rand break all the seals for no reason, especially since she thinks he's half-mad already. That's why she's even going to the FOM to meet him. Otherwise, she would have moved openly against him already.

 

And yes I know she didn't want Rand to "force her hand". But we don't really know what she meant by that. Whatever it is, I'm pretty sure she doesn't mean to capture him and take him to the White Tower or anything like that. Egwene isn't stupid.

Edited by Apple13
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Somehow the fact that he claims to have a dead mans memories might not be a sign of sanity in her eyes. Nor the Fact the Nynarne couldn't remove the taint from him.

 

In her eyes the sanest thing he did was Warn her. She feels he asking her to stop him from destroying the world. She believes in him. Enough to feel that he fighting off insanity enough to ask for her help.

 

Nyneave tells Egwene everything that has happened while she was around Rand, to the point where she leaves Rand to return to the WT. And at that point it's clear that Rand is not insane. There's also what the Wise Ones said about Rand.

 

Obviously I wouldn't fault her for thinking that he is mad when he first tells her, but her conversation with Nyneave should have made it clear that he wasn't. And that's when she should have reconsidered what Rand said.

 

Also if Nyneave is going to mention the taint on Rand's mind, she'd probably also mention the much more intersting thing which is the bright light covering his brain and shielding it from the taint.

 

Egwene said it herself: he sounds sane, it's the things he says (seals must be broken, dead dudes memories) which sound crazy.

 

There was a time when even Nynaeve questioned Rand's state of mind. She said to Min that a "few days was enough for him to level Cairhien" or something. I know that was before Rand had his epiphany. But you have to see things from Egwene's point of view. She hasn't really been around Rand, and hasn't really seen how he has changed. All she might have right now are facts. And some of those facts (like him balefiring that castle) are pretty scary.

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*Spoilers*

 

 

 

Tarmon gai'don is coming so you think its a good idea to rally rands enemies against him? The Aes Sedai failed the dragon in the past and it looks as if they may do so again.

 

I believe i once saw on here that Robert Jordan was credited for having written strong female characters into his books. To me it seems like half the women are arrogant and reckless. Elayne is pregnant and finds it difficult to channel at times so she decides to confront black ajah sisters without telling anyone?

 

I just finished all the books on audio so i can finally visit these forums without worrying about spoilers! :happy:

 

It was what he wanted her to do. And she isn't trying to antagonize him for perks or anything; she's gathering all his support into one place so that he might listen to them better, not to fight against him. And it wasn't that the Aes Sedai failed the Dragon in the past. The Aes Sedai from the Age of Legends were a completely different brand of channelers (they were both male and female for one, and there were no Ajahs). And I think RJ mentioned that it wasn't known for sure if it would have been a good idea for the females to have taken part in Sealing the Dark One : They might have succeeded or saidar might have also been tainted, which would have been disastrous for the world.

 

But I agree partly with the strong females thing. I do think that most of the females are strong in the series, but I find it a little irritating that they're all so convinced they're always right. But I think some of them are likeable anyways, and they have other qualities that make up for the obnoxiousness.

 

She's made it pretty clear that she means to oppose Rand. She hasn't gone to listen to Rand. Egwene may be doing exactly what Rand wanted but that's not an excuse for her doing it. As for fighting him, well I doubt it would come to that but Egwene did say she hoped Rand did not force her hand, so take that as you will.

 

I know that she means to oppose Rand - On his plan to break the seals. Egwene knows that Rand is meant to fight at Tarmon Gaidon, and she's fine with that. She isn't trying to gather a whole bunch of people to smack him down or anything. She has legitimate reasons for gathering all his allies together. She just wants him to know how the rest of them feel about this. I for one think she's perfectly in the right to do this. I think even Darlin said that the more power a man gets, the more his actions must be questioned. Egwene can't just let Rand break all the seals for no reason, especially since she thinks he's half-mad already. That's why she's even going to the FOM to meet him. Otherwise, she would have moved openly against him already.

 

And yes I know she didn't want Rand to "force her hand". But we don't really know what she meant by that. Whatever it is, I'm pretty sure she doesn't mean to capture him and take him to the White Tower or anything like that. Egwene isn't stupid.

 

Oh I agree completely that gathering all the world leaders is a good thing, not doubt about it. However her mindset that Rand is wrong despite the fact that she knows close to nothing on what he plans to do is where I think she is wrong. She could have done everything she's done and gone to the FoM with the intent to listen before making her decision. So it's not so much her actions that are wrong to me, but the reasons for which she does them and the intent behind them.

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Somehow the fact that he claims to have a dead mans memories might not be a sign of sanity in her eyes. Nor the Fact the Nynarne couldn't remove the taint from him.

 

In her eyes the sanest thing he did was Warn her. She feels he asking her to stop him from destroying the world. She believes in him. Enough to feel that he fighting off insanity enough to ask for her help.

 

Nyneave tells Egwene everything that has happened while she was around Rand, to the point where she leaves Rand to return to the WT. And at that point it's clear that Rand is not insane. There's also what the Wise Ones said about Rand.

 

Obviously I wouldn't fault her for thinking that he is mad when he first tells her, but her conversation with Nyneave should have made it clear that he wasn't. And that's when she should have reconsidered what Rand said.

 

Also if Nyneave is going to mention the taint on Rand's mind, she'd probably also mention the much more intersting thing which is the bright light covering his brain and shielding it from the taint.

 

Egwene said it herself: he sounds sane, it's the things he says (seals must be broken, dead dudes memories) which sound crazy.

 

There was a time when even Nynaeve questioned Rand's state of mind. She said to Min that a "few days was enough for him to level Cairhien" or something. I know that was before Rand had his epiphany. But you have to see things from Egwene's point of view. She hasn't really been around Rand, and hasn't really seen how he has changed. All she might have right now are facts. And some of those facts (like him balefiring that castle) are pretty scary.

 

If she can't trust Nyneave enough to believe her when she tells her Rand is sane then that's her own problem. She was around Rand for a very short while as well, and she was able to recognise that he didn't sound insane, but what he said did sound crazy. She also recognised that now Rand would never need to balefire a castle, he could just persuade the people to follow him by being who he is. So she sees that Rand has changed, no doubt about it.

 

Even if she is unsure of his sanity as you say, she still has to recognise the posibility that he is sane, which essentialy changes the worth of everything he has told her.

Edited by Master Ablar
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He walked into the white tower, refused to be checked for his sanity, started talking philosophy and announced that he was doing the one thing they had to prevent. If we weren't regularly inside his head we would think he was insane as well.

 

I don't see how he can be blamed for not wanting to be prodded to 'check his sanity'. Is sounding philosophical really a symptom of being insane? Not when I last checked. Especially when the problem being dealth with is borderline metaphysical, I don't see how sounding philosophical is so off the reservation. Though I agree, sauntering in and saying something that totally goes against conventional wisdom held for millenia is quite a bombshell.

The only complaint I have about Egwene in this situation is that she isn't preparing for the possibility or even the probability that Rand might be wrong, but for the certainty of it. At least that's the way I read it.

 

Same here. She's already decided that Rand is wrong.

 

Responding more to the bold part -- as she should.

 

"To hope for the best and prepare for the worst, is a trite but a good maxim." -- John Jay, Founding Father and 1st Supreme Court Justice of the United States of America

No sane person would go to this meeting not prepared to do what must be done, if it came down to it. Yet so many think she should show up unprepared. Why? because by third party accounts Rand is still a nice guy?

 

Some say their only beef is not with her actions, but that we never see any doubt in her PoV. Which is a fair criticism, but it doesn't mean it's not there. I would argue, though understandably weakly, that her doubt is there there. It was just expressed much earlier in the series. In CoT, when Egwene is talking to Siuan after hearing that Aes Sedai had sworn to Rand, she thinks this,

 

She had grown up with Rand, yet she could not allow that to influence her. He was the Dragon Reborn, now, the hope of the world and at the same time maybe the single greatest threat the world faced.

 

And he went on to almost destroying the entire borderland army with the Choden Kal a few books later. So she was 100% correct about him being potentially dangerous. It also makes sense that, despite the fact that they grew up together, she is now the Amyrlin, he is the Dragon Reborn, and some detachment is required when making potentially world-altering decisions.

 

Furthermore, because Perrin, Nynaeve, and even Cadsuane now (!), are so gung ho to go along with whatever plan Rand comes up, with post-enlightenment. It's a good thing someone's there to question him. Someone how doesn't spend 24/7 in his ta'veren pull.

 

P.S. loving another hate-egwene thread. <3

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He walked into the white tower, refused to be checked for his sanity, started talking philosophy and announced that he was doing the one thing they had to prevent. If we weren't regularly inside his head we would think he was insane as well.

 

I don't see how he can be blamed for not wanting to be prodded to 'check his sanity'. Is sounding philosophical really a symptom of being insane? Not when I last checked. Especially when the problem being dealth with is borderline metaphysical, I don't see how sounding philosophical is so off the reservation. Though I agree, sauntering in and saying something that totally goes against conventional wisdom held for millenia is quite a bombshell.

The only complaint I have about Egwene in this situation is that she isn't preparing for the possibility or even the probability that Rand might be wrong, but for the certainty of it. At least that's the way I read it.

 

Same here. She's already decided that Rand is wrong.

 

Responding more to the bold part -- as she should.

 

"To hope for the best and prepare for the worst, is a trite but a good maxim." -- John Jay, Founding Father and 1st Supreme Court Justice of the United States of America

No sane person would go to this meeting not prepared to do what must be done, if it came down to it. Yet so many think she should show up unprepared. Why? because by third party accounts Rand is still a nice guy?

 

Some say their only beef is not with her actions, but that we never see any doubt in her PoV. Which is a fair criticism, but it doesn't mean it's not there. I would argue, though understandably weakly, that her doubt is there there. It was just expressed much earlier in the series. In CoT, when Egwene is talking to Siuan after hearing that Aes Sedai had sworn to Rand, she thinks this,

 

She had grown up with Rand, yet she could not allow that to influence her. He was the Dragon Reborn, now, the hope of the world and at the same time maybe the single greatest threat the world faced.

 

And he went on to almost destroying the entire borderland army with the Choden Kal a few books later. So she was 100% correct about him being potentially dangerous. It also makes sense that, despite the fact that they grew up together, she is now the Amyrlin, he is the Dragon Reborn, and some detachment is required when making potentially world-altering decisions.

 

Furthermore, because Perrin, Nynaeve, and even Cadsuane now (!), are so gung ho to go along with whatever plan Rand comes up, with post-enlightenment. It's a good thing someone's there to question him. Someone how doesn't spend 24/7 in his ta'veren pull.

 

P.S. loving another hate-egwene thread. <3

 

You say she should be going with the certainty that Rand is wrong, whereas your citation says that she should be prepared for the posibility that Rand is wrong.

 

But she's not going there prepared for the worst, she's going having already decided that the worst has happened: that Rand is wrong to want to break the seals. There is no hoping for the best here because the best would be Rand being right about breaking the seals, and she has already excluded that posibility.

 

She isn't there to question, or discuss the merits of his plan. She's there to oppose.

 

Also no one here has really said they hate Egwene or any ridiculous things like Egwene being as evil as the Forsaken. It hasn't gotten out of hand (yet).

Edited by Master Ablar
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But she's not going there prepared for the worst, she's going having already decided that the worst has happened: that Rand is wrong to want to break the seals. There is no hoping for the best here because the best would be Rand being right about breaking the seals, and she has already excluded that posibility.

 

She isn't there to question, or discuss the merits of his plan. She's there to oppose.

 

Also no one here has really said they hate Egwene or any ridiculous things like Egwene being as evil as the Forsaken. It hasn't gotten out of hand (yet).

 

She doesn't oppose him, she opposes breaking the seals. Opposing him would be "Lets kill Rand and make Logain the Dragon Reborn because he owes us one for making him channel again, and he'll let us puppeteer his actions."

 

Going to the meeting and bringing the support of nations and other factions ensures her words carry more weight, she'll be speaking for more than just the White Tower. And Rand said they would discuss it at FoM, so obviously she's getting ready for an important discussion. Now if he can't convince her and she can't convince him, she will likely try to use her army to stop him from breaking the seals, sure. But that doesn't mean she'll plug her ears and sing a song while he tries to talk...

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My big problem is so many hate threads are filled with double standards. They complain about the girls being arrogant and reckless and then they put Rand on a pedestal despite the fact that he's often the poster boy for being arrogant and reckless.

I agree with that. A lot of people criticize the girls for not thanking Mat for rescuing them in Tear, but neither did Mat thank them and Verin for carrying his unconscious body from Falme to Tar Valon (and in Nynaeve's words, "taking care of him like a babe in swaddling"), or Rand express any gratitude towards any of the women who saved him on numerous occasions. The guys have many of the same faults, but don't get criticized nearly as much.

 

I think Mat in particular gets more slack than he deserves—and I say this as a Mat fan—just because he's so likeable even when he's being arrogant or reckless. Readers tend to react to things on a visceral level and aren't always fair judges. We make excuses for characters we like, and are quick to condemn characters we dislike. As a Nynaeve fan, if she were to balefire a wagon of school children in AMoL, my initial reaction would probably be "Yes, well, those brats had it coming! They were in the way!" before grudgingly admitting she may have erred in judgment, a little. :biggrin:

 

In Rand's case, though, I think many people feel he's already paid a hefty price for his arrogance and reckless behavior, so there's no point in beating him up any further. Even at his worst, it was hard not to feel sorry for someone who had pretty much hit rock bottom. It was like watching a drug addict/alcoholic/mentally ill person engage in destructive behavior. You feel more pity for them, for what they're doing to themselves, than anger.

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For me, the reason I don't like Egwene as a character is the fact that in order for her to succeed everyone opposed to has to act concussed. She has a very powerful stupidity-induction field around her that turns supposedly smart, experienced women into complete idiots. A recent example would be the sitters granting Egwene authority to deal with the monarchs, somehow managing to forget that Rand is the king of Illian, even though they have Mattin Stepaneos walking around the tower as a constant reminder. This effect started just before she was raised to the Amyrlin Seat, if I remember correctly.

 

At least with Rand, Mat and Perrin there is the ta'veren effect to explain away why people make stupid mistakes. They usually realize something strange is going on, sometimes as the words are tumbling out of their mouths. With Egwene people never seem to realize just how stupid they just were. Maybe RJ intended readers to think of Egwene as being smart, rather than everyone else being retarded.

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My big problem is so many hate threads are filled with double standards. They complain about the girls being arrogant and reckless and then they put Rand on a pedestal despite the fact that he's often the poster boy for being arrogant and reckless.

I agree with that. A lot of people criticize the girls for not thanking Mat for rescuing them in Tear, but neither did Mat thank them and Verin for carrying his unconscious body from Falme to Tar Valon (and in Nynaeve's words, "taking care of him like a babe in swaddling"), or Rand express any gratitude towards any of the women who saved him on numerous occasions. The guys have many of the same faults, but don't get criticized nearly as much.

 

I think Mat in particular gets more slack than he deserves—and I say this as a Mat fan—just because he's so likeable even when he's being arrogant or reckless. Readers tend to react to things on a visceral level and aren't always fair judges. We make excuses for characters we like, and are quick to condemn characters we dislike. As a Nynaeve fan, if she were to balefire a wagon of school children in AMoL, my initial reaction would probably be "Yes, well, those brats had it coming! They were in the way!" before grudgingly admitting she may have erred in judgment, a little. :biggrin:

 

In Rand's case, though, I think many people feel he's already paid a hefty price for his arrogance and reckless behavior, so there's no point in beating him up any further. Even at his worst, it was hard not to feel sorry for someone who had pretty much hit rock bottom. It was like watching a drug addict/alcoholic/mentally ill person engage in destructive behavior. You feel more pity for them, for what they're doing to themselves, than anger.

 

We can all look at things from different viewpoints. One thing that just struck me is... that RJ intended to write a series with women being the ones in power, women being on top, a world where women are considered "better" then men, as the reversed is in our world. There is a male norm in our society. (My view. the end. I don´t wanna start a man vs woman discussion here)

 

We say that the Egwene is arrogant but Rand was indeed very arrogant too. Sure he had reasons we can argue, he was the Dragon Reborn, spoken of in prophecies, he had lords and ladies bowing to him and doing his every will out of fear, but at the same time trying to kill him. He had Forsaken to battle, knowing he was gonna die to save a world that basically hated his guts and so on, but the fact is, he was arrogant.

 

We critize the girls for not saying thank you and taking the men for granted, because we are viewing the story from our perspective, but if they (women) are to act as men are in our world, why should they thank the men when it´s pre-established that men should deffer to women, at least in the eyes of the women. We can see that on numerous occasion with how women act towards men, ordering them around, being bossy, saying they gossip, that they need a women that can take care of them and so on. Maybe Jordan wrote the women as he did, to highlight our own notions of how men and women are viewed in our world. Thus Egwene (besides being a poorly written char imo) is more prone to critisism because we see her as a female leader acting as a male leader or having male tendecies. That is not acceptable with our standards but Rand´s actions as being arrogant, you shall obey me cause Im the Dragon- is viewed in a more forgiving light from us readers because he is male, and that is more expected of is. But in the world he is in, that behaviour is viewed as bad because he is a man...

I hope you understand what I´m trying to say, it makes alot more sense in my head.

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Well you got to remember Rand is running around who knows where, with as much power as he wants to take, it be easy to overlook that he a king, I mean he has had 4 counties under his foot at once and threw 3 of them away.

 

And while Mattin may be there, don't forget that's he be a prisoner in a nice room for half the time, and hiding from rand the other half. And That the tower is huge, Half the people probably never seen him, and the other half dismissed him from their minds.

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*Spoilers*

 

 

 

Tarmon gai'don is coming so you think its a good idea to rally rands enemies against him? The Aes Sedai failed the dragon in the past and it looks as if they may do so again.

 

I believe i once saw on here that Robert Jordan was credited for having written strong female characters into his books. To me it seems like half the women are arrogant and reckless. Elayne is pregnant and finds it difficult to channel at times so she decides to confront black ajah sisters without telling anyone?

 

I just finished all the books on audio so i can finally visit these forums without worrying about spoilers! :happy:

Just remember, Rand is playing catch-up, running all over fixing things, he doesn't have time to marshal all his forces and still deal with the Black Tower and to deal with the White Tower, and to deal with the Seanchan....so on and so forth. Rand used Egwene, knowing that telling her he was going to break the DO's seals would have her thinking he needed to be stopped, and she would gather all his allies against him, why else plan to "meet" at the field of Merrilor? He lined it all up perfectly. Then he'll have to convince them not to resist him.

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But she's not going there prepared for the worst, she's going having already decided that the worst has happened: that Rand is wrong to want to break the seals. There is no hoping for the best here because the best would be Rand being right about breaking the seals, and she has already excluded that posibility.

 

She isn't there to question, or discuss the merits of his plan. She's there to oppose.

 

Also no one here has really said they hate Egwene or any ridiculous things like Egwene being as evil as the Forsaken. It hasn't gotten out of hand (yet).

 

She doesn't oppose him, she opposes breaking the seals. Opposing him would be "Lets kill Rand and make Logain the Dragon Reborn because he owes us one for making him channel again, and he'll let us puppeteer his actions."

 

Going to the meeting and bringing the support of nations and other factions ensures her words carry more weight, she'll be speaking for more than just the White Tower. And Rand said they would discuss it at FoM, so obviously she's getting ready for an important discussion. Now if he can't convince her and she can't convince him, she will likely try to use her army to stop him from breaking the seals, sure. But that doesn't mean she'll plug her ears and sing a song while he tries to talk...

 

In any case Egwene opposes Rand on this particular subject. She's clearly taken that stance. And since she is (probably) going to turn out to be wrong, she's going to look bad, which would be a shame because she could have avoided being wrong by waiting until she knew everything.

 

As for the nations she has brought to support her, I don't really see a problem. First because there's no problem with her doing that (though it's really not great for the unity of the forces of the light), and second because they're hardly completely on her side. The only one who seems to be clearly on her side is Elayne.

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Would you have her simply ignore the fact that he came into her seat of power, and announced that he was freeing the dark one?

 

She had to take a stance. And she made the right one with the knowledge she had.

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