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Wtf egwene?


tyanth
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Breaking the seals != Freeing the Dark One.

 

The Bore was open for over a hundred years during the AoL without The Dark One breaking free. The White Tower should know that much at least.

 

Besides, he actually told her, though quite vague, why he had to do it.

 

Regarding the Ta'veren argument, the very fact that they are Ta'veren is to adjust the pattern, so that it follows the original intentions of the Wheel. So Aes Sedai blaming that is kinda hypocritical, since they constantly states that the Wheel weaves as the Wheel wills.

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Oh I agree completely that gathering all the world leaders is a good thing, not doubt about it. However her mindset that Rand is wrong despite the fact that she knows close to nothing on what he plans to do is where I think she is wrong. She could have done everything she's done and gone to the FoM with the intent to listen before making her decision. So it's not so much her actions that are wrong to me, but the reasons for which she does them and the intent behind them.

 

Yeah, but Rand purposefully kept her in the dark about his reasons, didn't he? He wanted her to gather all the armies together, and he knew that the best way was to freak her about the seals and then make her contact all of them. It isn't really that Egwene is in the mindset that Rand is always wrong or anything. Rand just didn't tell her anything about it. He himself chose not to say anything because he wanted her to bring them together.

 

 

If she can't trust Nyneave enough to believe her when she tells her Rand is sane then that's her own problem. She was around Rand for a very short while as well, and she was able to recognise that he didn't sound insane, but what he said did sound crazy. She also recognised that now Rand would never need to balefire a castle, he could just persuade the people to follow him by being who he is. So she sees that Rand has changed, no doubt about it.

 

Even if she is unsure of his sanity as you say, she still has to recognise the posibility that he is sane, which essentialy changes the worth of everything he has told her.

 

Egwene can't be sure that Nynaeve has everything right. Nynaeve has acted irresponsibly at times in the past. For all Egwene figures, Nynaeve can just be caught up by Rand's taveren thing.

And I think she does think he has a possibility of being sane. If she thought he had gone insane already, she wouldn't really bother to raise the armies to oppose him on this. She's only gathering them because she wants him to realize his mistake (or what she believes is his mistake). If she thought he was insane, she wouldn't bother to try and reason with him.

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Oh I agree completely that gathering all the world leaders is a good thing, not doubt about it. However her mindset that Rand is wrong despite the fact that she knows close to nothing on what he plans to do is where I think she is wrong. She could have done everything she's done and gone to the FoM with the intent to listen before making her decision. So it's not so much her actions that are wrong to me, but the reasons for which she does them and the intent behind them.

 

Yeah, but Rand purposefully kept her in the dark about his reasons, didn't he? He wanted her to gather all the armies together, and he knew that the best way was to freak her about the seals and then make her contact all of them. It isn't really that Egwene is in the mindset that Rand is always wrong or anything. Rand just didn't tell her anything about it. He himself chose not to say anything because he wanted her to bring them together.

 

 

If she can't trust Nyneave enough to believe her when she tells her Rand is sane then that's her own problem. She was around Rand for a very short while as well, and she was able to recognise that he didn't sound insane, but what he said did sound crazy. She also recognised that now Rand would never need to balefire a castle, he could just persuade the people to follow him by being who he is. So she sees that Rand has changed, no doubt about it.

 

Even if she is unsure of his sanity as you say, she still has to recognise the posibility that he is sane, which essentialy changes the worth of everything he has told her.

 

Egwene can't be sure that Nynaeve has everything right. Nynaeve has acted irresponsibly at times in the past. For all Egwene figures, Nynaeve can just be caught up by Rand's taveren thing.

And I think she does think he has a possibility of being sane. If she thought he had gone insane already, she wouldn't really bother to raise the armies to oppose him on this. She's only gathering them because she wants him to realize his mistake (or what she believes is his mistake). If she thought he was insane, she wouldn't bother to try and reason with him.

 

Agree completely. If she thought he was out of his mind crazy and that he was only capable now of destroying the world. She wouldn't be going to meet him at FoM at all. She'd be finding a new trunk to lock him in.

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Guest PiotrekS

For me, the reason I don't like Egwene as a character is the fact that in order for her to succeed everyone opposed to has to act concussed. She has a very powerful stupidity-induction field around her that turns supposedly smart, experienced women into complete idiots. A recent example would be the sitters granting Egwene authority to deal with the monarchs, somehow managing to forget that Rand is the king of Illian, even though they have Mattin Stepaneos walking around the tower as a constant reminder. This effect started just before she was raised to the Amyrlin Seat, if I remember correctly.

 

At least with Rand, Mat and Perrin there is the ta'veren effect to explain away why people make stupid mistakes. They usually realize something strange is going on, sometimes as the words are tumbling out of their mouths. With Egwene people never seem to realize just how stupid they just were. Maybe RJ intended readers to think of Egwene as being smart, rather than everyone else being retarded.

 

That's the main problem also for me.RJ/BS, what have you done to my fauvorite, super-smart, strong, good-hearthed, inependent and experienced Siuan Sanche? :sad:

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How has Nyneave acted irresponsibly, by avioding Egwene. I have listened to WH in a while, but I seem to remember Egwene not being happy when Nyneave "ran off" in WH. I think she did something rather important, which out weighs whatever Egwene. Probably to make herself feel more important by bullying her old teacher.

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For me, the reason I don't like Egwene as a character is the fact that in order for her to succeed everyone opposed to has to act concussed. She has a very powerful stupidity-induction field around her that turns supposedly smart, experienced women into complete idiots. A recent example would be the sitters granting Egwene authority to deal with the monarchs, somehow managing to forget that Rand is the king of Illian, even though they have Mattin Stepaneos walking around the tower as a constant reminder. This effect started just before she was raised to the Amyrlin Seat, if I remember correctly.

 

At least with Rand, Mat and Perrin there is the ta'veren effect to explain away why people make stupid mistakes. They usually realize something strange is going on, sometimes as the words are tumbling out of their mouths. With Egwene people never seem to realize just how stupid they just were. Maybe RJ intended readers to think of Egwene as being smart, rather than everyone else being retarded.

I feel the same. Since becoming Amyrlin, Egwene's had a reverse Midas touch on everyone around her (read the Black Hole Sue article over at TVTropes and tell me if it reminds you of anyone...).

 

Thus Egwene (besides being a poorly written char imo) is more prone to critisism because we see her as a female leader acting as a male leader or having male tendecies. That is not acceptable with our standards but Rand´s actions as being arrogant, you shall obey me cause Im the Dragon- is viewed in a more forgiving light from us readers because he is male, and that is more expected of is. But in the world he is in, that behaviour is viewed as bad because he is a man...

I hope you understand what I´m trying to say, it makes alot more sense in my head.

No, I get where you're coming from. As a girl, I think I'm sometimes more sympathetic to female characters, but at other times I'm harder on them. So on the whole, it evens out. Sometimes I reverse the genders in my head just to see if that makes me feel differently about a certain situation. How would I feel about a female character who sleeps around as much as Mat does, or a female Dragon Reborn with three husbands?

 

Most guys I know would have a hard time coping with a jealous girlfriend, so it wouldn't surprise me if most people who dislike Faile are male. Female readers might sympathize with Faile more for being stuck with a beautiful rival out to steal her man. On the flip side, I find female characters who treat their friends badly (cough, Egwene) especially off-putting since that's the kind of people I've often met and really can't stand in real life.

 

As you say, I think we're often more forgiving of arrogance in men. And that goes for the narrative in the books, too—it's always the female characters who are accused of "bullying" others; men are apparently just being leaders when they threaten people with bodily harm.

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Guest PiotrekS

I don't really buy this argument that Rand is forgiven while Egwene gets criticized for exactly the same. Of course, even DR can and should get criticized for breaking the rules that apply to everybody or simply being stupid or arrogant.

 

But the point is: Amyrlin is not the DR. Their authority is not equivalent, their responsability even more so, their accomplishments are anything but equal, their sufferings and burdens differ dramatically.

 

Egwene has reason to be more "arrogant" (or show more "strong leader" traits) than, let's say Gareth Bryne or Narishma or Elayne or Lan. Rand has reason to be more "arrogant" than Egwene and their genders have really nothing to do with that. You're simply comparing apples and oranges here.

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Would you have her simply ignore the fact that he came into her seat of power, and announced that he was freeing the dark one?

 

She had to take a stance. And she made the right one with the knowledge she had.

 

And could she not have waited to have additional knowledge (which Rand said he would give her) before taking a stance? She still could have done everything she has done. She just wouldn't be making an instinctive decision.

 

 

Oh I agree completely that gathering all the world leaders is a good thing, not doubt about it. However her mindset that Rand is wrong despite the fact that she knows close to nothing on what he plans to do is where I think she is wrong. She could have done everything she's done and gone to the FoM with the intent to listen before making her decision. So it's not so much her actions that are wrong to me, but the reasons for which she does them and the intent behind them.

 

Yeah, but Rand purposefully kept her in the dark about his reasons, didn't he? He wanted her to gather all the armies together, and he knew that the best way was to freak her about the seals and then make her contact all of them. It isn't really that Egwene is in the mindset that Rand is always wrong or anything. Rand just didn't tell her anything about it. He himself chose not to say anything because he wanted her to bring them together.

 

 

If she can't trust Nyneave enough to believe her when she tells her Rand is sane then that's her own problem. She was around Rand for a very short while as well, and she was able to recognise that he didn't sound insane, but what he said did sound crazy. She also recognised that now Rand would never need to balefire a castle, he could just persuade the people to follow him by being who he is. So she sees that Rand has changed, no doubt about it.

 

Even if she is unsure of his sanity as you say, she still has to recognise the posibility that he is sane, which essentialy changes the worth of everything he has told her.

 

Egwene can't be sure that Nynaeve has everything right. Nynaeve has acted irresponsibly at times in the past. For all Egwene figures, Nynaeve can just be caught up by Rand's taveren thing.

And I think she does think he has a possibility of being sane. If she thought he had gone insane already, she wouldn't really bother to raise the armies to oppose him on this. She's only gathering them because she wants him to realize his mistake (or what she believes is his mistake). If she thought he was insane, she wouldn't bother to try and reason with him.

 

He kept her in the dark temporarily. He said they would talk at the FoM. Of course Rand meant for her to gather those armies to oppose him. That doesn't mean it was the right thing to do. Yes he meant to freak her out, but in her position she can't afford to panic. Not for a prolonged amount of time.

There is a chance that Nyneave is wrong about Rand as you say, but is there not also a chance that she is right? Egwene has to plan on that possibility. You say that Egwene may think he has a possibility of being sane. Another possibility, another thing Egwene can't be sure of. If there's a possibility of him being sane, then there is a possibility of him having been perfectly truthfull with what he told her when he met her, which means there is a possibility that he knows something that she doesn't, which means there is a possibility that she is running into a wall.

 

That is a lot of possibilities, a lot of unknowns, a lot of things she can't be sure of. And yet she has taken a stance anyway. What would it cost her to go to the FoM with the intention of learning more and considering the merits of Rand's plan? Absolutely nothing. However it would certainly have allowed her to save face when it turns out that Rand is right, which seems quite probable.

 

Basically, Loial sums up my feelings: she's being hasty.

Edited by Master Ablar
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Would you have her simply ignore the fact that he came into her seat of power, and announced that he was freeing the dark one?

 

She had to take a stance. And she made the right one with the knowledge she had.

 

And could she not have waited to have additional knowledge (which Rand said he would give her) before taking a stance? She still could have done everything she has done. She just wouldn't be making an instinctive decision.

 

No.

 

He basically showed no respect for her or the tower's authority, and said he was breaking the seals. And you want her to do nothing for a month? And when they get more info what can they do if they are right? They be unprepared to do anything?

 

The rest of the tower fears him. They consider him warbringing, murdering, madman. Do you think they would stand to sit back and do nothing while he destroys the world? There would be a new person on the seat by the end of the day. And who ever they picked would not trust him an inch.

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Would you have her simply ignore the fact that he came into her seat of power, and announced that he was freeing the dark one?

 

She had to take a stance. And she made the right one with the knowledge she had.

 

And could she not have waited to have additional knowledge (which Rand said he would give her) before taking a stance? She still could have done everything she has done. She just wouldn't be making an instinctive decision.

 

 

Oh I agree completely that gathering all the world leaders is a good thing, not doubt about it. However her mindset that Rand is wrong despite the fact that she knows close to nothing on what he plans to do is where I think she is wrong. She could have done everything she's done and gone to the FoM with the intent to listen before making her decision. So it's not so much her actions that are wrong to me, but the reasons for which she does them and the intent behind them.

 

Yeah, but Rand purposefully kept her in the dark about his reasons, didn't he? He wanted her to gather all the armies together, and he knew that the best way was to freak her about the seals and then make her contact all of them. It isn't really that Egwene is in the mindset that Rand is always wrong or anything. Rand just didn't tell her anything about it. He himself chose not to say anything because he wanted her to bring them together.

 

 

If she can't trust Nyneave enough to believe her when she tells her Rand is sane then that's her own problem. She was around Rand for a very short while as well, and she was able to recognise that he didn't sound insane, but what he said did sound crazy. She also recognised that now Rand would never need to balefire a castle, he could just persuade the people to follow him by being who he is. So she sees that Rand has changed, no doubt about it.

 

Even if she is unsure of his sanity as you say, she still has to recognise the posibility that he is sane, which essentialy changes the worth of everything he has told her.

 

Egwene can't be sure that Nynaeve has everything right. Nynaeve has acted irresponsibly at times in the past. For all Egwene figures, Nynaeve can just be caught up by Rand's taveren thing.

And I think she does think he has a possibility of being sane. If she thought he had gone insane already, she wouldn't really bother to raise the armies to oppose him on this. She's only gathering them because she wants him to realize his mistake (or what she believes is his mistake). If she thought he was insane, she wouldn't bother to try and reason with him.

 

He kept her in the dark temporarily. He said they would talk at the FoM. Of course Rand meant for her to gather those armies to oppose him. That doesn't mean it was the right thing to do. Yes he meant to freak her out, but in her position she can't afford to panic. Not for a prolonged amount of time.

There is a chance that Nyneave is wrong about Rand as you say, but is there not also a chance that she is right? Egwene has to plan on that possibility. You say that Egwene may think he has a possibility of being sane. Another possibility, another thing Egwene can't be sure of. If there's a possibility of him being sane, then there is a possibility of him having been perfectly truthfull with what he told her when he met her, which means there is a possibility that he knows something that she doesn't, which means there is a possibility that she is running into a wall.

 

That is a lot of possibilities, a lot of unknowns, a lot of things she can't be sure of. And yet she has taken a stance anyway. What would it cost her to go to the FoM with the intention of learning more and considering the merits of Rand's plan? Absolutely nothing. However it would certainly have allowed her to save face when it turns out that Rand is right, which seems quite probable.

 

Basically, Loial sums up my feelings: she's being hasty.

 

Yeah, he said he would talk to her at the FOM. But he made it pretty clear to her that he wasn't going to back down from his stance just because she might tell him to. He even told her that he hated all Aes Sedai at one point. Egwene might be being hasty by gathering everyone, but she thinks it's the only way he might listen to her. If Rand didn't think Egwene had the support of others, he wouldn't care about what she says. The White Tower's strength really lies in the way it can influence other countries/kingdoms. Unless Egwene got the others to cooperate with her, he wouldn't think she was worth listening to.

 

Egwene is only trying to oppose Rand in this matter because she believes she's doing the right thing. Rand came and told her he was going to break the seals, and that he would meet her at FOM to talk about it, not much else. He basically meant to get her riled up. You can't blame her for freaking out when he's talking about the Seals here - They're kind of important and Egwene cant just allow a man who may be mad to do whatever he wants with them! Considering that, what Egwene did wasn't a big deal. All Egwene did was warn all the monarchs about what he wanted to do, and unite them. She didn't tell them to start attacking Rand or anything. She told them to come to the FOM and state their opinions to him! Is that really such a rotten thing to do? It's all pretty democratic so far.

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My big problem is so many hate threads are filled with double standards. They complain about the girls being arrogant and reckless and then they put Rand on a pedestal despite the fact that he's often the poster boy for being arrogant and reckless.

 

Until now I've resisted the urge to post in Egwene threads, but the argument that's she's disliked because she's a woman just really annoys me.

 

I completely agree that Rand is just as reckless as Egwene is, often more so, but imo that's not why people dislike Egwene. It's the lack of introspection, and the sort of intentional bullying that she displays towards Nynaeve amongst others.

 

You see, Rand spends some of his time being arrogant and reckless, and the rest of it wanting to die, until recently anyway. He's a textbook manic depressive. There isn't a thing he does, whether it's waging war or using his friends, that he doesn't beat himself up over severely. He calls himself dangerously arrogant in his own head almost every chapter.

 

Now compare this to Egwene. I remember her occasionally criticizing herself over political errors, mildly, but moral ones? Once, in the whole course of the books. Lying to the WOs. That's it. Self-doubt just doesn't exist for her.

 

I agree with everyone who says how capable and courageous she is, etc. She's probably the most capable character in the books, next to Rand, and I'm not sure if he could have done what she has in her position.

 

Yet she's just not a very likeable character. But simply because she's a powerful woman? No way.

 

Sorry to rant.

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He basically showed no respect for her or the tower's authority, and said he was breaking the seals. And you want her to do nothing for a month? And when they get more info what can they do if they are right? They be unprepared to do anything?

Which is no big surprise since the tower can claim no authority on him what-so-ever.No, we do not want her to do nothing , just not jump on the first ship she sees.

 

I also like the spin you gave her motivation yet again, that of her being disposed.At what point do we see this during her POVs ? Unless I'm mistaken , we don't.

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Are you saying you would go to a country's capital and ignore it's leaders authority because your not a citizen?

 

The fact that she didn't think of it doesn't change that it was a real threat. You saw how they reacted to him. She need to stand up to him.

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The fact that she didn't think of it doesn't change that it was a real threat. You saw how they reacted to him. She need to stand up to him.

It means however that it is a non-issue as far as her motivation is concerned.

 

Are you saying you would go to a country's capital and ignore it's leaders authority because your not a citizen?

Nice parallel here and I understand what you are getting at.Then again , when said authority violates your rights , then yes and let's be honest ; even you acknowledge that the Aes Sedai were anything but friendly so he IS justified in walking away.Unless of course you are arguing that the Aes Sedai would give him cookies while he discussed his plans with them.

 

Also , there's quite to be said about self-proclaimed authority.The Amyrlin is also known as the Watcher of the Seals.Does that mean that she has more authority than him over them ? I'm not referring to the breaking part, merely to her proclaimed authority.

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It means however that it is a non-issue as far as her motivation is concerned.

 

True, but I stand by the fact that it was the right thing to do. I don't feel the reasoning matters. Perhaps it was impulsive, but I seen nothing wrong with making a decision without taking the time to think yourself into circles.

 

Nice parallel here and I understand what you are getting at.Then again , when said authority violates your rights , then yes and let's be honest ; even you acknowledge that the Aes Sedai were anything but friendly so he IS justified in walking away.Unless of course you are arguing that the Aes Sedai would give him cookies while he discussed his plans with them.

 

All I'm saying is that it was an insult to her and the tower.

 

Also , there's quite to be said about self-proclaimed authority.The Amyrlin is also known as the Watcher of the Seals.Does that mean that she has more authority than him over them ? I'm not referring to the breaking part, merely to her proclaimed authority.

 

It sounds to me like the title means she a protector of them. Does it mean she has more authority? Who knows? We have no clue when the title was given. For all we know the last sane male Aes Sedai gave the title with a swore oath to protect them forever, or maybe 20 years ago the Seat wanted a fancier title to upstage a queen.

 

But to Eqwene it may mean that she won't let them break why she lives, and I can understand why.

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Would you have her simply ignore the fact that he came into her seat of power, and announced that he was freeing the dark one?

 

He basically showed no respect for her or the tower's authority, and said he was breaking the seals. And you want her to do nothing for a month?

 

So which point are you trying to make? That she should be taking drastic action because he announced something she doesn't understand and considers dangerous, or because he showed no awe of her "power"? I can sympathise with one (even if I don't agree with it) and not the other. I don't think anybody would even imply that they are remotely on par as motivations, but since you've mentioned them in the same breath twice, I want to make sure.

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True, but I stand by the fact that it was the right thing to do.

I agree to disagree.

 

All I'm saying is that it was an insult to her and the tower.

According to whom ? AS ? Please.Rand walked in like an equal and announced his plan to Eqwene.Then he walked out.

 

It sounds to me like the title means she a protector of them. Does it mean she has more authority? Who knows? We have no clue when the title was given. For all we know the last sane male Aes Sedai gave the title with a swore oath to protect them forever, or maybe 20 years ago the Seat wanted a fancier title to upstage a queen.

No, it means that she is somehow tasked with protecting them which kinda gives her some rights,at least in her head.

HOW she got it is irrelevant.The point I'm trying to get across is that AS claim all kinds of authority on all kinds of things.That does not mean they are entitled to it .

 

 

But to Eqwene it may mean that she won't let them break why she lives, and I can understand why.

Never said it wasn't understandable, just that it was not justifiable.

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First time poster here :) I just finished book 3, the Dragon Reborn and came on here to see if anyone hated Egwene as much as I do and I find this thread. I was hoping she would be killed off soon, but it looks like she is still alive by book 12 and still causing problems :(

 

She was ok in book 1, but by Book 2 and now book 3, I feel like she is absolutely useless. The only thing she is good at is to get the others into trouble by blurting out stuff and behaving impulsively.

 

Sorry for this comment in this thread. Just felt the need to rant at her after finishing the book. I am planning to skim through her chapters in the future books as her POV often gets me frustrated.

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First time poster here :) I just finished book 3, the Dragon Reborn and came on here to see if anyone hated Egwene as much as I do and I find this thread. I was hoping she would be killed off soon, but it looks like she is still alive by book 12 and still causing problems :(

 

She was ok in book 1, but by Book 2 and now book 3, I feel like she is absolutely useless. The only thing she is good at is to get the others into trouble by blurting out stuff and behaving impulsively.

 

Sorry for this comment in this thread. Just felt the need to rant at her after finishing the book. I am planning to skim through her chapters in the future books as her POV often gets me frustrated.

 

Don't skim over her POV. I dislike her but to be honest she's a very important character to the series and if you skim over her POV you would lose alot of information.

 

and also be ready for being accused of "egwene bashing" with your statement :biggrin:

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I'd have to say that at this point Egwene has probably become one of my favorite characters. Not necessarily one of the most liked, but her storyline is compelling and it's interesting to see how she evolves and becomes just as important a character as Rand.

 

While the other Emond's Field boys were reluctant to leave their home, she was adamant about leaving and doing more with her life, and boy, has she! Regardless of whether I agree with her decisions or not, she's one of the strongest characters by far. She underwent initial training in the tower, had to undergo some very extreme training as a damane (not to mention being told to hunt down the Black Ajah!), then harder training with the Wise Ones, and then is thrust into a position w/the Salidar rebels where she's inexperienced and could have easily been just a puppet, yet she gains control of the situation. And when she's captured, which could have been the end right there for her AND the rebels, she endures even more punishment without breaking and comes out the winner, rallying the tower against the Seanchan to boot.

 

I find that sort of thing incredibly admirable, especially from someone as young as she is who grew up with besically no knowledge of the rest of the world, politics, and playing the game of houses which seems to be a large part of dealing w/Aes Sedai as well. Whether her choices are smart or not, she's the one who has to make them, and it's extremely difficult, especially for someone her age.

 

I see her behavior toward those she knows as being very similar to Nynaeve's as Wisdom, which was something she herself discussed w/Nynaeve. Originally Nynaeve placed herself in authority with the group, but I think Egwene forcing her to accept that outside of the Two Rivers she's not in charge anymore, as well as forcing her to deal with some of her faults and her attitude that she's the Wisdom so she's always right, helps both Egwene and Nynaeve evolve as characters. Egwene just has to take it further once she becomes Amyrlin. Both she and Nynaeve are placed in positions of authority at very young ages, and thus not likely to be taken seriously. She's forced to be harder than she might have to be otherwise, because of her age and inexperience.

 

So yeah, I'll stop rambling now. I guess I just wanted to stick up for Egwene a bit, since I do admire her strength and resolve even though I may not like everything she does. At least she takes charge and does something while most of the other AS dither around and keep jostling for power amongst themselves.

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I completely agree that Rand is just as reckless as Egwene is, often more so, but imo that's not why people dislike Egwene. It's the lack of introspection, and the sort of intentional bullying that she displays towards Nynaeve amongst others.

Yeah, it's mostly Elayne who is criticized for being reckless, and IMO that's a different situation since she's also putting Birgitte, Rand, and her unborn twins at risk. People dislike Egwene for other reasons.

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You know I think I been getting off topic so I finish up with one last thought.

 

Imagine you just been elected President and suddenly a old friend walks into the White House. He tells you he has a plan to stop terrorism.

 

He going to set off Nukes in every major city.

 

Then he runs off before you can talk him out of it. Now are you going to wait and try and talk him out of it once the nukes are set, and his finger is on the trigger, or are you going to assume he went off the deep end and alert the FBI, CIA, DMV and any other combination of letters you can come up with?

 

That's what breaking the seals is to her. That's what's we been told it is for the last 12 books. The End. I win again Lews Therin. Do not past go, do not collect 200 dollars.

 

Forget that Rand is the main character, that we been in his head and know that he sane and how knowledgeable he is. I can't see how people can think of it that way and see how she making a mistake.

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You know I think I been getting off topic so I finish up with one last thought.

 

Imagine you just been elected President and suddenly a old friend walks into the White House. He tells you he has a plan to stop terrorism.

 

He going to set off Nukes in every major city.

 

Then he runs off before you can talk him out of it. Now are you going to wait and try and talk him out of it once the nukes are set, and his finger is on the trigger, or are you going to assume he went off the deep end and alert the FBI, CIA, DMV and any other combination of letters you can come up with?

 

That's what breaking the seals is to her. That's what's we been told it is for the last 12 books. The End. I win again Lews Therin. Do not past go, do not collect 200 dollars.

 

Forget that Rand is the main character, that we been in his head and know that he sane and how knowledgeable he is. I can't see how people can think of it that way and see how she making a mistake.

thought I would also point out that she knows the seals are screwed up anyways, didnt she cut one with a belt knife or some such. In fact the only reason she knows any are still whole is that rand said he was going to break them in the future

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You know I think I been getting off topic so I finish up with one last thought.

 

Imagine you just been elected President and suddenly a old friend walks into the White House. He tells you he has a plan to stop terrorism.

 

He going to set off Nukes in every major city.

 

Then he runs off before you can talk him out of it. Now are you going to wait and try and talk him out of it once the nukes are set, and his finger is on the trigger, or are you going to assume he went off the deep end and alert the FBI, CIA, DMV and any other combination of letters you can come up with?

 

That's what breaking the seals is to her. That's what's we been told it is for the last 12 books. The End. I win again Lews Therin. Do not past go, do not collect 200 dollars.

 

Forget that Rand is the main character, that we been in his head and know that he sane and how knowledgeable he is. I can't see how people can think of it that way and see how she making a mistake.

 

This, this this this, a thousand times this. I think people forget that we get to see this world and what's going on from many people's heads. Egwene doesn't have the same perspective and knowledge that we have, she doesn't know that Rand has integrated the memories of Lews Therin, she hasn't -seen- all of this. The people who go 'omg she should just trust Rand' reeeeeally need to keep all of this in mind. :p

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In my opinion, in Rand's visit to the White Tower, he showed appropriate respect but absolutely no deference.

 

 

You know I think I been getting off topic so I finish up with one last thought.

 

Imagine you just been elected President and suddenly a old friend walks into the White House. He tells you he has a plan to stop terrorism.

 

He going to set off Nukes in every major city.

 

Then he runs off before you can talk him out of it. Now are you going to wait and try and talk him out of it once the nukes are set, and his finger is on the trigger, or are you going to assume he went off the deep end and alert the FBI, CIA, DMV and any other combination of letters you can come up with?

 

That's what breaking the seals is to her. That's what's we been told it is for the last 12 books. The End. I win again Lews Therin. Do not past go, do not collect 200 dollars.

 

Forget that Rand is the main character, that we been in his head and know that he sane and how knowledgeable he is. I can't see how people can think of it that way and see how she making a mistake.

 

This, this this this, a thousand times this. I think people forget that we get to see this world and what's going on from many people's heads. Egwene doesn't have the same perspective and knowledge that we have, she doesn't know that Rand has integrated the memories of Lews Therin, she hasn't -seen- all of this. The people who go 'omg she should just trust Rand' reeeeeally need to keep all of this in mind. :p

 

In the hypothetical example, Egwene wouldn't be the President of the United States. She'd be the Governor of California. Rand would be the President of the United States. :myrddraal:

 

I have absolutely no problem with Egwene taking the position that breaking the Seals sounds like a really, really bad idea. I don't really have a problem with her trying to gather the people of the world to talk him out of it. Where my issue is essentially lies with Egwene wearing blinders as she goes about the situation. Essentially, she has not at any point considered the possibility that Rand might actually be correct. Nor has she considered what will happen if the nations of the world side with Rand. She's barely considered what will happen if Rand "forces her hand." She doesn't seem to have considered how weak her position is if Rand isn't convinced by her.

 

Regarding Egwene not having the same knowledge and perspective of the readers, in point and fact she DOES have the same knowledge, or at the very least access to the same knowledge. At no point in Towers of Midnight prior to the very end did we see Rand from Rand's own perspective. Everything else was through the eyes of other characters.

 

Siuan saw him, Bryne saw him and Egwene herself saw him in his visit to the White Tower. Nynaeve saw him on his return to Tear, saw his ability to see who was a Darkfriend, saw how Darkfriends couldn't bear to even look at him directly, saw his reunion with Min and Cadsuane and Tam and herself. She knows that Elayne has bonded Rand, and has heard Elayne talk about how Rand has Awakened, how he's warm now, etc. She has evidence of how Rand has pushed back the Dark One's touch upon the world by his mere presence. If she bothered to send a sister to Tear to check on how the women there were doing, she likely would have been able to obtain first hand testimony of Rand's miracles at Bandar Eban and at Maradon. Egwene could have even visited Min in dreams or even requested that Min visit her in person for an afternoon, and had an old friend provide plenty of first hand testimony about the changes in Rand.

 

If Egwene has not gathered intelligence on Rand's current state and activities, that's her failure as a leader considering her current goals. Right now, Egwene appears to me to be suffering from confirmation bias. While her hypothesis (Rand breaking the Seals is an incredibly bad idea) is a valid one, she has discarded contrary opinions (Nynaeve's, for example) and has not sought after evidence to validate or invalidate either theory. The same applies to the matter of Rand's sanity. She's ignored the opinion that runs contrary to her own, and has not performed additional research regarding this.

 

Egwene's theory is entirely valid. Her follow-up is not. That's where - in my mind - Egwene's failure lies.

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