Jump to content

DRAGONMOUNT

A WHEEL OF TIME COMMUNITY

Zentari

Member
  • Content Count

    353
  • Joined

  • Last visited

  1. True, but Nynaeve would get friends killed just as quickly if she doesn't ease up on her stubborn foolishness a bit. Not that I see any reason that Egwene has any right to teach Nynaeve anything, they could both do with a visit to that toothless wilder that Cadsuane eventually appreciated or perhaps a few years with the Wise Ones as apprentices rather than just a short time. True but then again that can be applied to ALL Aes Sedai in my opinion. Also, you must remember that the whole ter'angreal experience was closer to a nightmare than a regular dream which could explain why it was so hard to disbelieve and traumatizing.
  2. She's manipulative because she manipulates people and no, them agreeing to it doesn't mean she doesn't do it.For example if someone was rude to people's faces and denied it because at the bottom line they agree with him,it wouldn't change the fact that he was rude . She's power-hungry because she jumps at every opportunity to acquire power.There were other ways to stop/unite the sisters instead of forcing them to swear to her,not to mention the whole Myrelle incident.Would she give up her power if it was required ? Yes, but that doesn't mean she doesn't have a taste for it.
  3. I respond to snide comments with sarcasm.Sorry if I was being too snappy but comments like " I get that the scene was in Egwenes PoV and she was happy with herself for succeeding, and that you hate when she succeeds, but the others agreed of their own accord, there is nothing to suggest they feel used." tend to come out as outright trolling to me.
  4. So she is not powerhungry because she stopped when she aquired leadership over them ? Great point there. I understand perfectly, just don't have a stomach for manipulations.Also, she did it so the others won't become recluse again or to help the tower ? Don't seem to remember her being so thoughtful about it , but if you can prove me wrong go ahead. Maybe you don't understand power hungry... or what the Amyrlin is. You understand that the Aes Sedai is a parliamentary institution? So Egwene needs to raise things with the hall and people need to vote for them. Also, other sisters could raise things counter to what she wants, and they could vote for them. So if she were power hungry, if she wanted to skirt the system and ensure she always got her way, which someone who is truly power hungry would do, she would continue to gather loyal or sworn people to never vote against her. She has not. What manipulation?! Of course it helps the tower. She won't offer things that hurt the tower. This is how treaties work. You make deals that should help all parties. And the other channelers agreed to it. They agreed. She did not blackmail or strongarm them. They agreed to a cogent point about how it would benefit them all. And so they are bound together by a mutually amenable treaty. Where is the manipulation? I get that the scene was in Egwenes PoV and she was happy with herself for succeeding, and that you hate when she succeeds, but the others agreed of their own accord, there is nothing to suggest they feel used. ...yes, I'M the one that doesn't understand what power-hungry means.She also didn't manipulate them because they agreed to it.Makes perfect sense really.Then again, maybe it's just plain denial on your part.
  5. And I reiterate my point--there is a difference between them throwing dirt, and Egwene doing it for them. *Sigh* It's not Eqwene throwing dirt , it's them doing it.She would be able to do so by claiming she wants to show total devotion to the WT that way and respect for traditions.Would it be something new to throw to her ? Perhaps, but the point itself is moot.Egwene is to stay and as for actually undermining her, they have other ways for that.So all in all,we agree to disagree. I don't necessarily approve of Egwene being present during Nynaeve's testing, but that's a different point--the choice of making a gesture to the system that she herself had evaded was clever--having Nynaeve follow through with the testing is a gesture of good faith to the Aes Sedai, showing her respect of their ways. Not doing it herself was also clever. Effectively it was the wisest way of dealing with the question of the testing. Now if Egwene had simply kept her nose completely clear of it, it would have been an act of political perfection, but meh. True, the point is that she failed to be impartial and what's more, she failed to support her friend.Two big blunders here,pretty big if you ask me and it only goes to show how dangerous her mindset is at times. So she is not powerhungry because she stopped when she aquired leadership over them ? Great point there. I understand perfectly, just don't have a stomach for manipulations.Also, she did it so the others won't become recluse again or to help the tower ? Don't seem to remember her being so thoughtful about it , but if you can prove me wrong go ahead.
  6. Sure they are. Romanda and Lelaine are chewing at the bit not even a day after the Purge of the Black Ajah. Beyond that, the distinction would be that Egwene would have acknowledged the issue. Technically, Egwene is legally Aes Sedai whether she passed the tests or not, but to do them now would be to infer that Egwene accepted that she was not actually Aes Sedai, and that would be far more damaging. It does make a difference. If someone attacks Egwene on that, they come off looking petty--Egwene's achievements come into play then, as does the fact that technically she is Aes Sedai. However if Egwene does the test now, then she would be the one making raising the issue, and thus provide official support for the argument against Egwene--something that could not be attained otherwise. Which brings us back to what I was saying : if it's dirt they want, they'll find it one way or another.Egwene taking the test would not make her the one raising the issue, heck she could use it to even further silence the others (take it,pass it, then give a speech about rules applying to everyone).They are not gonna go public at it, and even if they were a public confrontation (like the one where the hall was talking without her but public) would ground any arguments against her. It's not about it being inconvenient or dangerous to her, it's about her being ok with the status quo.Apparently,so are the AS but then again, you can't really call out someone with Eg's achievement's a cheater,can you ? Funny you would bring that up as an example, given how it was one of Egwene's failures.An Amyrlin must be impartial , but that goes both ways.
  7. True but irrelevant.If finding dirt to fling at her is their purpose , they could do the same with her not having passed the test.Not to mention that it would be ridiculous to call her out on self-esteem when she has single-handedly (so to speak) rooted out the black ajah.They are not gonna call her out on issues of competence anytime soon.Thus that issue is moot. There was no requirement for the Amyrlin to be Aes Sedai prior.Do you believe it to be so because a)it went without saying that only an Aes Sedai would even be considered for the position or b) because they saw the prospect of rising a non-aes sedai to it ? Aes Sedai accept her, true.Still, she never took that test, for a tittle she claims. True, just like I give my own opinion.Unless this is a private convo in which case, sorry for intruding. I don't really see your point. Obviously, they never considered that a woman who was not Aes Sedai would be considered for the Amyrlin Seat, and that is where the loophole came from. However, it also clearly states "The Amyrlin, as Aes Sedai..." which is the basis for her title as Aes Sedai. She is Aes Sedai by virtue of being Amyrlin, and that is made quite clear in the books. I am sure you are aware of it. Because of that, she does not need to take the test in order to claim that title; it is hers by right as Amyrlin Seat. Again, what does it matter if she ever takes the test or not? No, it is not a private conversation, but I asked him to clarify his statement, not for someone else's interpretation of his statement. Thank you for answering.The fact that they never considered it and it happened is what messes things up. The law states "The Amyrlin, as Aes Sedai..." because they ONLY considered an Aes Sedai candidate.It was never about getting a free shawl.Thus they violated the spirit of the law while adhering to the letter.
  8. There was no requirement for the Amyrlin to be Aes Sedai prior.Do you believe it to be so because a)it went without saying that only an Aes Sedai would even be considered for the position or b) because they saw the prospect of rising a non-aes sedai to it ? Aes Sedai accept her, true.Still, she never took that test, for a tittle she claims. True, just like I give my own opinion.Unless this is a private convo in which case, sorry for intruding.
  9. I don't follow you. Can you elaborate? What is not right, why is it not right, how do we know that she knows it, and when and how does she then become self-serving? Her raising was because of a loop-hole.They followed the letter of the law, but not the spirit.If nothing else, wouldn't you say that it would only be reasonable for her to take the test for Aes Sedai ? It's not a question of her passing it, it's a question of formalities.If she claims the Aes Sedai tittle as her own , she should pass the test.
  10. Care to explain how the bullying and forcing Myrelle to swear had anything to do with this ? I waive the other AS since that explanation CAN be applied to their situations (doubtful, but it can). Really ? Does that include the part with the lace binding ? The one she bullies nyn ? When she jumps at Myrelle ? Planning to change kings because they didn't jump on her word ? So yeah, I can say that you are pretty much assume the best when even good is debatable. I like my horse.I enjoy looking at you plebes from high up ! </sarcasm> Any actual arguments to be made ? Power-hungry is the wrong term. It implies she's out for power regardless of competence etc. Rather, Egwene is acting in a way she believes to be the best. She doesn't seize power unnecessarily. So power-hungry is the wrong term because she feels justified in doing so ? Awesome.She seeks power for a reason, but she still seeks it, with forceful persuasion if necessary.
  11. Of course she did,even if that is nowhere reflected when she makes them swear.More food for thought; what about Myrelle ? Was that absolutely required as well ? Even if it was, and it wasn't, it still does not excuse her actions towards her or the other sisters. She has a habit of collecting power/influence and then keeping it.Perhaps she will discard it,as she claims (she also once claimed something about swearing the oaths if you remember), if her primary goal required it.
  12. One can argue so for a lot of cases.Her believing being in the right does not make it so.Power is also one of her primary motivations, that much is clear.Her sole motivation ? Maybe not, but it's one of her primary ones. She says to Elaida that she would be able to say that "the White Tower is more important than she is", even if she had sworn the oaths. She believes that the WT is more important for her than her power. I think she is right about what she thinks that is important... Which excuses her actions how exactly ? Can you demonstrate to me how the whole blackmailing thing was important to the tower ? I have trouble seeing it. Besides that, does what she said conflict with my assertion of her ?
  13. There a few instances where the greater good doesn't excuse her actions and others were the greater good is irrelevant to her.Take the instance with Nynaeve , or when she blackmailed to get those oaths of obedience.Some have tried to defend her actions by rationalizing her choices, even though the characters own POVs discredit any such attempts (eg: "She did it to warn Nynaeve !". ) One can argue so for a lot of cases.Her believing being in the right does not make it so.Power is also one of her primary motivations, that much is clear.Her sole motivation ? Maybe not, but it's one of her primary ones.
  14. She cares , when she bothers to.I don't mean that in the sense that she forgets about them,rather in the sense that it doesn't affect her negatively.As long as it doesn't , she is quite willing to try to help. Some people will find such behavior admirable. I absolutely abhor it.
  15. Nope.Because said absence is actually part of my point.Shocking, no ? Which is kinda funny; if it was ,as you said, known between the younglings where are all those references ? Could it be because they don't talk about bonding all that often ? Not usually with their warders, who can sense their very emotions. Point missed, by a long shot. There are two options here; If it isn't a secret , then the public already knows (because as you said, it would have been extremely difficult to keep quiet about, though not as much as you think it would), which is curious since no-one has shown such knowledge or negative outcry from it. Given how these things haven't happened , the other option is it being spread on a need to know basis. How ,in the nine hells , does an angry remark by someone who has been warder for years and doesn't appreciate that push in the least constitute as an indication of such knowledge being widespread in any way ? It doesn't , and neither does it give us an indication of WHEN or HOW he learned it. Actually , I can.It shows how the whole bonding aspect is largely in the dark,unlike what you said, which also means that the compulsion effect is also in the dark.
×
×
  • Create New...