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Wtf egwene?


tyanth
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You know I think I been getting off topic so I finish up with one last thought.

 

Imagine you just been elected President and suddenly a old friend walks into the White House. He tells you he has a plan to stop terrorism.

 

He going to set off Nukes in every major city.

 

Then he runs off before you can talk him out of it. Now are you going to wait and try and talk him out of it once the nukes are set, and his finger is on the trigger, or are you going to assume he went off the deep end and alert the FBI, CIA, DMV and any other combination of letters you can come up with?

 

That's what breaking the seals is to her. That's what's we been told it is for the last 12 books. The End. I win again Lews Therin. Do not past go, do not collect 200 dollars.

 

Forget that Rand is the main character, that we been in his head and know that he sane and how knowledgeable he is. I can't see how people can think of it that way and see how she making a mistake.

Nice thought, terrible example.

 

First of all, the positions are wrong.Rand would be the president , or to be more specific god's messenger on earth. He would be the one that designed said nukes, which are going to go off one way or another.You get to choose where and when they explode, you don't get to cancel the explosion.

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You know I think I been getting off topic so I finish up with one last thought.

 

Imagine you just been elected President and suddenly a old friend walks into the White House. He tells you he has a plan to stop terrorism.

 

He going to set off Nukes in every major city.

 

Then he runs off before you can talk him out of it. Now are you going to wait and try and talk him out of it once the nukes are set, and his finger is on the trigger, or are you going to assume he went off the deep end and alert the FBI, CIA, DMV and any other combination of letters you can come up with?

 

That's what breaking the seals is to her. That's what's we been told it is for the last 12 books. The End. I win again Lews Therin. Do not past go, do not collect 200 dollars.

 

Forget that Rand is the main character, that we been in his head and know that he sane and how knowledgeable he is. I can't see how people can think of it that way and see how she making a mistake.

 

She's more like the president of the woman's club since the AS are such albeit with power. None of the Randland population elected her and any pretense that she rules over randland is wrong.

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She's more like the president of the woman's club since the AS are such albeit with power. None of the Randland population elected her and any pretense that she rules over randland is wrong.

 

Since when are the AS in Tar Valon not part of the Randland population? Before the DR, The Amyrlin Seat was the single most powerful position in Randland. She may not rule over all but most Nations have AS advisors and would seriously consider anything she proposed. Randland protocol requires all rulers to call her Mother. Recall Lan's comment that even the Lord Captain Commander of the Whitecloaks would need to answer her summons.

 

TGH

No one refuses an audience with the Amyrlin seat, sheephearder. Not the Lord Captain Commander of the Whitecloaks himself. Pedron Niall might spend the whole trip planning how to kill her, if he could do it and get away, but he would come.

 

and Gareth Byrne on the topic of rulers deferring to the Amyrlin

 

 

TFOH, Ch. 28

 

“You were the Amyrlin Seat,” he said calmly, “and even a king kisses the Amyrlin’s ring."

Edited by Suttree
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She's more like the president of the woman's club since the AS are such albeit with power. None of the Randland population elected her and any pretense that she rules over randland is wrong.

 

Before the DR, The Amyrlin Seat was the single most powerful position in Randland. She may not rule over all but most Nations have AS advisors and would seriously consider anything she proposed. Randland protocol requires all rulers to call her Mother. Recall Lan's comment that even the Lord Captain Commander of the Whitecloaks would need to answer her summons.

 

TGH

No one refuses an audience with the Amyrlin seat, sheephearder. Not the Lord Captain Commander of the Whitecloaks himself. Pedron Niall might spend the whole trip planning how to kill her, if he could do it and get away, but he would come.

 

and Gareth Byrne on the topic of rulers deferring to the Amyrlin

 

 

TFOH, Ch. 28

 

“You were the Amyrlin Seat,” he said calmly, “and even a king kisses the Amyrlin’s ring."

 

That doesn't make her a President, elected by Randland. She is the Amyrlin Seat, the leader of the AS who ruled for 3000 years because they are the only institution that are known to use the One Power. ( the WO, kin, windfinders being unknown or hiding ). I guess the AS collectively has a problem admitting that there was a paradigm shift when the DR came and the cleansing meant men can now channel or that the WO, Kin and windfinders are coming out.

 

For 3000 years the AS are the only big kid at the yard, now there are the Ashaman and the rest. At this point in time, the Amyrlin Seat's influence has been reduced to only the White Tower. Even the Monarchs of the Nations now had to be persuaded. Egwene had to write and convince the King and Lords of Illian and Tear to persuade them to come. Egwene couldn't even rein in the Borderland monarchs to go back to their post, she doesn't even know where they went in the first place. Mayene and Ghealdan I would say would follow Perrin first before following any of what Egwene says.

 

The Dragon Reborn is the Pattern's champion to defeat the Dark One. take out Rand and Egwene from the equation, would it be fair to categorize the Amyrlin Seat, a leader of one faction of channeler to be higher than the champion of the creator for protecting the pattern itself from the dark one?

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She's more like the president of the woman's club since the AS are such albeit with power. None of the Randland population elected her and any pretense that she rules over randland is wrong.

 

Before the DR, The Amyrlin Seat was the single most powerful position in Randland. She may not rule over all but most Nations have AS advisors and would seriously consider anything she proposed. Randland protocol requires all rulers to call her Mother. Recall Lan's comment that even the Lord Captain Commander of the Whitecloaks would need to answer her summons.

 

TGH

No one refuses an audience with the Amyrlin seat, sheephearder. Not the Lord Captain Commander of the Whitecloaks himself. Pedron Niall might spend the whole trip planning how to kill her, if he could do it and get away, but he would come.

 

and Gareth Byrne on the topic of rulers deferring to the Amyrlin

 

 

TFOH, Ch. 28

 

“You were the Amyrlin Seat,” he said calmly, “and even a king kisses the Amyrlin’s ring."

 

That doesn't make her a President, elected by Randland. She is the Amyrlin Seat, the leader of the AS who ruled for 3000 years because they are the only institution that are known to use the One Power. ( the WO, kin, windfinders being unknown or hiding ). I guess the AS collectively has a problem admitting that there was a paradigm shift when the DR came and the cleansing meant men can now channel or that the WO, Kin and windfinders are coming out.

 

For 3000 years the AS are the only big kid at the yard, now there are the Ashaman and the rest. At this point in time, the Amyrlin Seat's influence has been reduced to only the White Tower. Even the Monarchs of the Nations now had to be persuaded. Egwene had to write and convince the King and Lords of Illian and Tear to persuade them to come. Egwene couldn't even rein in the Borderland monarchs to go back to their post, she doesn't even know where they went in the first place. Mayene and Ghealdan I would say would follow Perrin first before following any of what Egwene says.

 

The Dragon Reborn is the Pattern's champion to defeat the Dark One. take out Rand and Egwene from the equation, would it be fair to categorize the Amyrlin Seat, a leader of one faction of channeler to be higher than the champion of the creator for protecting the pattern itself from the dark one?

 

As I said in my post "before the DR"...obvs Rand sits higher as it should be.

 

Think it is fair to say though that most rulers perception of AS hasn't changed. Not sure why you mention the borderland rulers but recall there was a good deal of AS in their camp.

 

Saidin being clean is fairly new for everyone in the books. Perrin just found out in ToM and most of the land prob doesnt know yet. As for the Kin, WO, and windfinders Egwene already has set plans in motion to unite all female channelers and post TG it will prob be Logain and Eggy in Tar Valon with the BT on the grounds of "Elaidas" palace. The Amyrlin no longer sits in the top spot but her influence still reaches far beyond the Tar Valon.

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@suttree

 

my bad, i must've skimmed past the first words of your post.

 

I will disagree with your thought however regarding the perception of rulers. Darlin and the Ilian lord had to be persuaded and even then Darlin's letter was clearly hedging. The borderlands went south without telling any Aes Sedai ( even to the AS they had with them ) the reason they did so. If any AS knew they would've sent pigeons to TV and gave news.

 

I agree though that the WT still has influence far beyond its border, but for how long and for how much is something that is either RAFO or indeterminable. Egwene has plans to draw the WO and the windfinders into the White tower's influence but whether she succeeds or not is something that might not be revealed since the result of those plans might or might not bear fruit after the Last Battle.

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You know I think I been getting off topic so I finish up with one last thought.

 

Imagine you just been elected President and suddenly a old friend walks into the White House. He tells you he has a plan to stop terrorism.

 

He going to set off Nukes in every major city.

 

Then he runs off before you can talk him out of it. Now are you going to wait and try and talk him out of it once the nukes are set, and his finger is on the trigger, or are you going to assume he went off the deep end and alert the FBI, CIA, DMV and any other combination of letters you can come up with?

 

That's what breaking the seals is to her. That's what's we been told it is for the last 12 books. The End. I win again Lews Therin. Do not past go, do not collect 200 dollars.

 

Forget that Rand is the main character, that we been in his head and know that he sane and how knowledgeable he is. I can't see how people can think of it that way and see how she making a mistake.

 

 

She's more like the president of the woman's club since the AS are such albeit with power. None of the Randland population elected her and any pretense that she rules over randland is wrong.

 

Before the DR, The Amyrlin Seat was the single most powerful position in Randland. She may not rule over all but most Nations have AS advisors and would seriously consider anything she proposed. Randland protocol requires all rulers to call her Mother. Recall Lan's comment that even the Lord Captain Commander of the Whitecloaks would need to answer her summons.

 

TGH

No one refuses an audience with the Amyrlin seat, sheephearder. Not the Lord Captain Commander of the Whitecloaks himself. Pedron Niall might spend the whole trip planning how to kill her, if he could do it and get away, but he would come.

 

and Gareth Byrne on the topic of rulers deferring to the Amyrlin

 

 

TFOH, Ch. 28

 

“You were the Amyrlin Seat,” he said calmly, “and even a king kisses the Amyrlin’s ring."

 

That doesn't make her a President, elected by Randland. She is the Amyrlin Seat, the leader of the AS who ruled for 3000 years because they are the only institution that are known to use the One Power. ( the WO, kin, windfinders being unknown or hiding ). I guess the AS collectively has a problem admitting that there was a paradigm shift when the DR came and the cleansing meant men can now channel or that the WO, Kin and windfinders are coming out.

 

For 3000 years the AS are the only big kid at the yard, now there are the Ashaman and the rest. At this point in time, the Amyrlin Seat's influence has been reduced to only the White Tower. Even the Monarchs of the Nations now had to be persuaded. Egwene had to write and convince the King and Lords of Illian and Tear to persuade them to come. Egwene couldn't even rein in the Borderland monarchs to go back to their post, she doesn't even know where they went in the first place. Mayene and Ghealdan I would say would follow Perrin first before following any of what Egwene says.

 

The Dragon Reborn is the Pattern's champion to defeat the Dark One. take out Rand and Egwene from the equation, would it be fair to categorize the Amyrlin Seat, a leader of one faction of channeler to be higher than the champion of the creator for protecting the pattern itself from the dark one?

 

Usurp888 has a very good point. Let's say there was a point in time when only the US had nukes. The entire world would have done what the US wanted them to do, even though they might not have liked it. Then, Russia suddenly developed nukes as well. The US' range of influence became a lot smaller. The US may not have liked it, but they acknowledged it. Now, for the next example, imagine that Canada or brazil also developed nukes around the same time the Russians did.

 

Egwene is the leader of a institution/nation/city state which held power for nearly 3000 years. They did some good things, yet, they also did some bad things. The bad things are hidden away, the good things are promoted. All of this isn't really out of the ordinary.

 

Now, there are 2 other institutions/nations/whatever that have equal power to Tar Valon/the WT. The may lack the needed experience and knowledge in some areas, but they excel in other areas. I'm talking about the Seanchan and the BT. The Aes Sedai still act as if they're the sole power in Randland, distancing themselves from the Seanchan (although that last is quite understandable, considering how they view channelers) and they also try to oppose Rand. They've tried to ally with the BT, but I wouldn't be surprised if they try to act superior to the Asha'man, which isn't a good basis for a steady alliance (keep in mind that the AS don't know that the BT is a nest full of darkfriends).

 

Now, if this had been the US, it would probably have allied with the other power whose opinions, morals and general view on how the world should be differs the least with it's own opinions. If not, they'd quickly lose even more power and influence and the president who was in charge at the time that happened would rightfully be called one of the worst presidents ever,just like the presidents that came after him, if they didn't manage to solve the matter. Besides, if the US entered such a position, it certainly wouldn't oppose Jesus reborn, at least not publicly. It most certainly wouldn't ask Afhganistan and western Europe to gather their armies somewhere far away from the front with the Russians just to oppose Jesus reborn.

 

This may be exactly what Jesus wants the US to do, but the US doesn't know that and should think twice about asking those people to send the largest part of their army to some random place. The least they should have done is try and make a temporary truce with the Russians, but we haven't read about that a truce between Tar Valon and Seanchan. We haven't even read about a messenger being sent to the area controlled by the Seanchan. We know that the Seanchan are going to attack Tar Valon, but Egwene doesn't know that.

 

Egwene is the leader of a fading power, but instead of being aware of that their power is fading and acting accordingly, the AS, lead by Egwene, still act as if they're the sole power in the universe.

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I think we might be getting a little lost in analogies here. Rand shows up and says he's going to break the seals. He refuses to explain his reasoning, and basically admits he doesn't have a plan. So, the seals, which are holding back Shai'tan, are to be broken and then Rand will improvise. That should fill Egwene with confidence. OK, once the seals are broken it won't be an instant release for Shai'tan, but presumably the seals are holding Him back, delaying Him, so keeping them in place gives them more time to plan. Despite her opposition, Egwene gives no indication of coming up with a rival plan - presumably she'll think of what to do next after she's stopped Rand. Rand has manoeuvred Egwene into opposing him for reasons that are not clear - I have no idea why he couldn't just try asking her to gather all the forces. Of course, if ta'veren was involved in Egwene's decision, then the Pattern wants her to oppose Rand. Is that an indication that Rand is going wrong somewhere and the Pattern means to stop him? From where I'm sitting, both sides look pretty damn stupid.

 

If we wish to go back to analogies, though, Egwene is head of one of the most powerful nation states in the world, although no longer the undisputed most powerful. That would make her equivalent to what? Prime Minister of the UK? The seals would be equivalent to a nuclear deterrent - they serve the same purpose of holding the enemy back. That nuclear deterrent (a bit like Trident) is failing - so what should we do about it? Rand says to scrap it now, then he'll try and come up with something. Egwene says to stop Rand, but doesn't have a firm plan that we are privy to beyond "stop Rand scrapping Trident". They have gathered a massive army on the border of their greatest enemy (Scottish separatists - so they're outside Holyrood), which Egwene wants to use to convince Rand to listen, and Rand think will listen to him anyway so he's just going to get everyone to agree with him on some other matters and then scrap Trident anyway. I realise that this analogy makes increasingly little sense. Presumably what happens next is they have a frank exchange of views (Rand shoots Egwene), then they scrap Trident, which leads Alex Salmond to unleash his full demonic power to destroy us all.

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She's more like the president of the woman's club since the AS are such albeit with power. None of the Randland population elected her and any pretense that she rules over randland is wrong.

That's a strange comment. Nobody of the Randland population elected Rand either. Or any of the world leaders, for that matter (technically some, including Egwene, were chosen by small councils of powerful people, but that's quite different). Or Hawkwing, which didn't stop him from becoming the ruler of all the Westlands. Those are not modern societies after all.

Edited by David Selig
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She's more like the president of the woman's club since the AS are such albeit with power. None of the Randland population elected her and any pretense that she rules over randland is wrong.

That's a strange comment. Nobody of the Randland population elected Rand either. Or any of the world leaders, for that matter (technically some, including Egwene, were chosen by small councils of powerful people, but that's quite different). Or Hawkwing, which didn't stop him from becoming the ruler of all the Westlands. Those are not modern societies after all.

 

The whole world even the forsaken and the DO acknowledge Rand as the Dragon Reborn. Egwene is acknowledged as the leader of the White Tower.

 

The contention is who among the two has greater clout and I am just simply arguing that in this moment in time in Randland, it should be Rand.

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I think we might be getting a little lost in analogies here. Rand shows up and says he's going to break the seals. He refuses to explain his reasoning, and basically admits he doesn't have a plan. So, the seals, which are holding back Shai'tan, are to be broken and then Rand will improvise. That should fill Egwene with confidence. OK, once the seals are broken it won't be an instant release for Shai'tan, but presumably the seals are holding Him back, delaying Him, so keeping them in place gives them more time to plan. Despite her opposition, Egwene gives no indication of coming up with a rival plan - presumably she'll think of what to do next after she's stopped Rand. Rand has manoeuvred Egwene into opposing him for reasons that are not clear - I have no idea why he couldn't just try asking her to gather all the forces. Of course, if ta'veren was involved in Egwene's decision, then the Pattern wants her to oppose Rand. Is that an indication that Rand is going wrong somewhere and the Pattern means to stop him? From where I'm sitting, both sides look pretty damn stupid.

 

If we wish to go back to analogies, though, Egwene is head of one of the most powerful nation states in the world, although no longer the undisputed most powerful. That would make her equivalent to what? Prime Minister of the UK? The seals would be equivalent to a nuclear deterrent - they serve the same purpose of holding the enemy back. That nuclear deterrent (a bit like Trident) is failing - so what should we do about it? Rand says to scrap it now, then he'll try and come up with something. Egwene says to stop Rand, but doesn't have a firm plan that we are privy to beyond "stop Rand scrapping Trident". They have gathered a massive army on the border of their greatest enemy (Scottish separatists - so they're outside Holyrood), which Egwene wants to use to convince Rand to listen, and Rand think will listen to him anyway so he's just going to get everyone to agree with him on some other matters and then scrap Trident anyway. I realise that this analogy makes increasingly little sense. Presumably what happens next is they have a frank exchange of views (Rand shoots Egwene), then they scrap Trident, which leads Alex Salmond to unleash his full demonic power to destroy us all.

 

 

I can see why Egwene would doubt Rand. I myself would if I am on her shoes. I agree that Rand should give some explanation not only to Egwene but to the world on what he intends to do and he does plan to do that at the FOM.

 

My disagreement with Egwene is how she views Rand. In her mind, she has already decided that Rand is wrong and that he should not break the seals. She gathers the nations monarchs not to hear Rand out but to oppose him on his plan. I have not read Egwene once indicate that she will go to FOM to hear him out.

 

The only reason for the analogies was that some posters previously were saying Rand needs to show respect to Egwene. I just wanted to point out that if anything, at this point in time for Randland, it should be the other way around. It is Egwene who should show respect to the Light's champion, the least she should do is to go to the FOM expecting an explanation for Rand's plan not go there intending to oppose it outright.

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He refuses to explain his reasoning, and basically admits he doesn't have a plan. So, the seals, which are holding back Shai'tan, are to be broken and then Rand will improvise. That should fill Egwene with confidence.

 

I see it slightly differently. Rand doesn't refuse to explain, he just wants to explain it somewhere outside of the tower (ToM), because he still has to work out the details. If he had no plan at all, he wouldn't try to work out the details either.

 

I admit that it wasn't smart of Rand at all not to explain anything at all (he might have given the Aes Sedai de basics of his idea). It almost looked like an action Hard Rand or Dark Rand could have done (I dislike them almost as much as Egwene & I'm very glad Hard & Dark Rand are finally gone). Still, he's the one prophesized to save the world, not Egwene & she knows this.

 

Rand is ta'veren, which, besides unconsiously influencing happenings and the thoughts of people around him, also means that he's bound tighter to the pattern than people who're not ta'veren. Non-ta'veren have some freedom to do whatever they want, without the pattern forcing them to go one way or another up to a certain point. This is a freedom Rand currently lacks. He simply does whatever the pattern wants him to do. The Aes Sedai, who supposedly know a lot about ta'veren, should be aware of this & I find it rather hard to believe Egwene has never heard of this or has forgotten it.

 

This means that his plan is either the pattern's plan (& would anyone, even Egwene Al'Vere dare to go against the will of the pattern?) or the plan will fail miserably (because the pattern won't allow it to happen) without having any lasting effect.

Edited by Gordar
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Ultimately Rand holds the trump card. Everybody knows and from what we can tell they also believe that Rand has to be at the last battle or the world will fall to the shadow. So Rand can threaten to simplay walk away from the last battle to the nearest portal stone if they don't want to agree with his plan. I personally don't think his character would do that but it is a credible threat. I don't think Egwene in particular is any worse than 99% of all men and women who can channel. They tend to believe that because they can channel, they are better people than those who can't. So I don't understand just Egwene bashing when it should include many others as well. The few exceptions I have found to this are primarily the wise ones.

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would anyone, even Egwene Al'Vere dare to go against the will of the pattern?

 

Apparently, yes she might..

 

Nynaeve has been around him {Rand} too much, Egwene thought. She was likely caught up by his ta'veren nature. The Pattern bent around him. Those near him would begin to see things his way, would work - unconsciously - to see his will done.

 

That had to be the explanation. Normally, Nynaeve was so levelheaded about these sorts of things. Or.. well, Nynaeve wasn't exactly levelheaded, really. But she generally did see the right way things needed to be done, so long as the right way didn't involve her being wrong.

 

So Eg thinks she's right, and the Pattern's got it wrong..

 

..and I think she must have been put under Compulsion by Halima.

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The ta'veren effects aren't always positive, they are neutral overall - some bad, some good. So objecting to the opinion of someone who has been (apparently) ta'veren is not necessary wrong.

 

Only from the PoV of those affected. The whole purpose of ta'veren is to correct drift in the Pattern, AIUI. If it's for the good of the Pattern for you to be eaten by a to'raken, then eaten you should be.

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You know I think I been getting off topic so I finish up with one last thought.

 

Imagine you just been elected President and suddenly a old friend walks into the White House. He tells you he has a plan to stop terrorism.

 

He going to set off Nukes in every major city.

 

Then he runs off before you can talk him out of it. Now are you going to wait and try and talk him out of it once the nukes are set, and his finger is on the trigger, or are you going to assume he went off the deep end and alert the FBI, CIA, DMV and any other combination of letters you can come up with?

 

That's what breaking the seals is to her. That's what's we been told it is for the last 12 books. The End. I win again Lews Therin. Do not past go, do not collect 200 dollars.

 

Forget that Rand is the main character, that we been in his head and know that he sane and how knowledgeable he is. I can't see how people can think of it that way and see how she making a mistake.

 

Rofl, I need to quote this again because it's awesome and 100% correct. Glad to have another Egwene supporter! Great analogy to get across what I was trying to say. He doesn't have to bow to Egwene, or show her any sort of deference. But he stormed into her tower as if he owned the place and dropped a bomb on her (ba-doom-ching!). What would Elyane say to him if he did that in Caemlyn? Egwene would look extremely hospitable in comparison I'm sure.

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would anyone, even Egwene Al'Vere dare to go against the will of the pattern?

 

Apparently, yes she might..

 

Nynaeve has been around him {Rand} too much, Egwene thought. She was likely caught up by his ta'veren nature. The Pattern bent around him. Those near him would begin to see things his way, would work - unconsciously - to see his will done.

 

That had to be the explanation. Normally, Nynaeve was so levelheaded about these sorts of things. Or.. well, Nynaeve wasn't exactly levelheaded, really. But she generally did see the right way things needed to be done, so long as the right way didn't involve her being wrong.

 

So Eg thinks she's right, and the Pattern's got it wrong..

 

..and I think she must have been put under Compulsion by Halima.

 

The pattern has no will, it is not sentient. RJ has explained that time and time again. If everything was preconceived, then the characters have no free will and should just give up the fight and go along for the ride.

 

Rand CAN be, and often IS wrong. He does not represent the will of the pattern (especially since it has no will). Remember when he wanted to destroy the borderlander army and Nynaeve stopped him? But oh my god if EGWENE stops him from doing soemthing that would end existance! Nynaeve must be the creator.

Edited by Kael Pyralis
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The pattern has no will, it is not sentient. RJ has explained that time and time again. If everything was preconceived, then the characters have no free will and should just give up the fight and go along for the ride.

 

Rand CAN be, and often IS wrong. He does not represent the will of the pattern (especially since it has no will). Remember when he wanted to destroy the borderlander army and Nynaeve stopped him? But oh my god if EGWENE stops him from doing soemthing that would end existance! Nynaeve must be the creator.

 

I agree the pattern is not sentient. But though nothing is preconceived and men has "free will" as it were, the pattern has a self-correcting feature when it detects a danger to its existence hence Ta'veren and Rand being a Ta'veren and the Light's champion for this age as the DR is the pattern's self correcting mechanism at work.

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But he stormed into her tower as if he owned the place and dropped a bomb on her (ba-doom-ching!). What would Elyane say to him if he did that in Caemlyn?

"We need to discuss this further in my bedroom". :cool:

 

Ta'veren effects aren't always for correcting the Pattern - often they just affect probability in a random way. I doubt the Pattern needed everyone in that village Rand passed on his way to Tear to get married, for example.

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The pattern has no will, it is not sentient. RJ has explained that time and time again. If everything was preconceived, then the characters have no free will and should just give up the fight and go along for the ride.

 

Rand CAN be, and often IS wrong. He does not represent the will of the pattern (especially since it has no will). Remember when he wanted to destroy the borderlander army and Nynaeve stopped him? But oh my god if EGWENE stops him from doing soemthing that would end existance! Nynaeve must be the creator.

 

I agree the pattern is not sentient. But though nothing is preconceived and men has "free will" as it were, the pattern has a self-correcting feature when it detects a danger to its existence hence Ta'veren and Rand being a Ta'veren and the Light's champion for this age as the DR is the pattern's self correcting mechanism at work.

 

Self correcting mechanisms doesn't mean it fixes everything, and just because it's given Rand the power to bend the pattern and people around him in certain ways, does not mean that the ways Rand bends things are to the benefit of the pattern. It's like me assigning a champion to fight for my life. I pick someone I have the most faith in, but they could still stumble and get themselves killed.

 

If the pattern could "self correct" so thoroughly as some suggest, it could just instantly erase everything the DO does to it. I realize the DO is outside the pattern, and so it can't just erase him, but it could erase any dark touches on the pattern right away. Clearly it's not capable enough to do that.

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But he stormed into her tower as if he owned the place and dropped a bomb on her (ba-doom-ching!). What would Elyane say to him if he did that in Caemlyn?

"We need to discuss this further in my bedroom". :cool:

 

Ta'veren effects aren't always for correcting the Pattern - often they just affect probability in a random way. I doubt the Pattern needed everyone in that village Rand passed on his way to Tear to get married, for example.

 

 

I disagree, its been said time and time again in the books that Ta'veren is the pattern trying to correct its weave. Even if its effect seem random our limited POV prevents us from seeing what the pattern really needed sometime in the future. For example, in the village where Rand is where everyone got married. It might be that after the Last Battle there would be a massive loss of population and the Pattern is making attempts now to weave future threads in via a massive baby boom hence its effect.

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The pattern has no will, it is not sentient. RJ has explained that time and time again. If everything was preconceived, then the characters have no free will and should just give up the fight and go along for the ride.

 

Rand CAN be, and often IS wrong. He does not represent the will of the pattern (especially since it has no will). Remember when he wanted to destroy the borderlander army and Nynaeve stopped him? But oh my god if EGWENE stops him from doing soemthing that would end existance! Nynaeve must be the creator.

 

I agree the pattern is not sentient. But though nothing is preconceived and men has "free will" as it were, the pattern has a self-correcting feature when it detects a danger to its existence hence Ta'veren and Rand being a Ta'veren and the Light's champion for this age as the DR is the pattern's self correcting mechanism at work.

 

Self correcting mechanisms doesn't mean it fixes everything, and just because it's given Rand the power to bend the pattern and people around him in certain ways, does not mean that the ways Rand bends things are to the benefit of the pattern. It's like me assigning a champion to fight for my life. I pick someone I have the most faith in, but they could still stumble and get themselves killed.

 

If the pattern could "self correct" so thoroughly as some suggest, it could just instantly erase everything the DO does to it. I realize the DO is outside the pattern, and so it can't just erase him, but it could erase any dark touches on the pattern right away. Clearly it's not capable enough to do that.

 

 

It is indeed trying to erase the Dark Ones touch via the Ta'veren it spuns out. Rand, Perrin and Mat are all tied to the pattern and they are being used to counteract whatever the DO is trying to do. Rand is also the Light's Champion but in this case I suspect it is not the pattern but the creator itself who has appointed Rand since the DO's acts has put the pattern in grave danger and mere Ta'verens are not enough to fight the DO but it is not written in the books so this is mere speculation on my part at this point.

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But he stormed into her tower as if he owned the place and dropped a bomb on her (ba-doom-ching!). What would Elyane say to him if he did that in Caemlyn?

"We need to discuss this further in my bedroom". :cool:

 

Ta'veren effects aren't always for correcting the Pattern - often they just affect probability in a random way. I doubt the Pattern needed everyone in that village Rand passed on his way to Tear to get married, for example.

 

I'm going to guess you're kidding, since she was furious just for offering her Caemlyn when he had taken it for her. She instead insisted on having a contest for the crown.

 

The ta'veren effect gets you swept up along with the ta'veren. He's like a whirlpool in the pattern people get sucked into. Some people are strong swimmers... like Tuon, and Egwene! (as quoted earlier she has denied Rand's effect in the past). Unfortunately, nothing guarantees Rand's direction is the right one.

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