Jump to content

DRAGONMOUNT

A WHEEL OF TIME COMMUNITY

Himiko

Member
  • Content Count

    159
  • Joined

  • Last visited

Everything posted by Himiko

  1. I started reading this series pretty recently, too (I'm on A Feast for Crows atm), and loving it so far. As I've said in another thread, Littlefinger and Varys are tied for my two favourite fantasy characters of... well, ever. I feel like I'm missing out on the appeal of some of the popular characters, though. I mean, I love Arya and Tyrion so far, and can understand why they're well liked characters. But I don't see why the big fan following of Jon and Jaime. I find them both pretty uninteresting as characters. I mean, I don't dislike them as such, and I have sympathy for their hardships, but I just find them pretty far down on the "interesting characters" scale. Maybe once I finish AFFC and ADWD I'll feel differently, does anyone think? Or is this just a case of me latching on to the weird characters again? XD EDIT: As far as ASOIAF comparing to WoT, I enjoy them in different ways, and think the authors both have their own strengths. For me, WoT is immersive because the world is so detailed- you have the different regional accents and speech styles, you have the world history, etc. ASOIAF doesn't seem to have this to quite the same extent, its a little more of a fantasy cliche world (mediaeval Europe style, patriarchy based system, etc). ASOIAF is very different, for me- its still immersive, because the characters are engaging, there's an element of risk and reality that is less present in WoT -characters you like, or that have played major roles, can and will die- getting out of such situations via "Author protection" is a much rarer thing than in the WoT. Many characters fall into a grey middle ground- sympathetic characters still do bad things, and "bad guys", if you will, are actually reasonably effective at dispatching their enemies. I think its quite refreshing to read after much of Wheel of Time, if only because it's more unpredictable in terms of its characters and how the storyline will progress, comparatively speaking. On the other hand, I've yet to read a series, ASOIAF included, which worldbuilds quite as well as WoT.
  2. Himiko

    Fave Character

    If we're just going by books, I'm currently reading ASOIAF, so I'm a little bit fixated around the characters there atm. I think Tyrion, Arya and Asha are probably all up in the favourites section. Going to have to give Faile and Nynaeve honourable mentions, too. Currently, though, my favourite fantasy characters are Littlefinger and Varys, by far and away. I'm such a Littlefinger fangirl at the moment, its not even funny.
  3. I started reading around the time Knife of Dreams was published (maybe just afterwards), and I didn't really have much of an issue with the kidnapping plot. Perrin's chapters were a little slow going and repetitive, I suppose, but if you don't have to wait between books for them to be written/ published, perhaps it's less of an issue than if you do. Personally, I'd say if you've got all the books tohand, go for it and read the plotline. I always like to think that if the opposite had happened, and Perrin had been taken instead of Faile, the whole business would have been resolved much quicker :P Of course, I know that wouldn't be likely, as all the men with Faile and co. were killed, but, meh.
  4. I'm female (Age 22, and started reading Wheel of Time aged 16, if that's any help, either). I definitely agree with a lot of others, in that I find the total inability of men and women to understand each other, despite the fact that, by and large, they don't come across as massively different. Women sniff and straighten their skirts more. Of course, there are other differences, but still... I definitely agree with whoever said that the female Forsaken tend to be more interesting than the males- I don't know if that was because there were initially more males than females, so characterisation of all the males was left to one side a little? That aside, I don't think there's a massive difference between how I view males and females. I love Mat, and I'm quite fond of Perrin. I love Nynaeve, and Faile. I loathe Egwene and Gawyn. Rand and Elayne both annoy me at various times in the story (Rand moreso overall, but Elayne's increasingly annoying me in the later books). Galad's grown on me over the series, as has Cadsuane. Lan's gone downhill in my estimation. I used to like Min, now find her kind of dull. Basically, I guess what I'm trying to say is that there's male and female characters in pretty much every category of my esteem, from high to low. I can definitely see how the overwhelming female perspective of men being woolheads who need to do what they're told is grating, but we do see some of their opinions change for the better over the series, so in some ways, I'm willing to write that off as the product of their society. The same as I try very hard to accept that Rand's "Women list" is a result partially of his upbringing, and partially of going mad. But it's hard, sometimes, particularly when its a viewpoint that irritates you.
  5. I think the Brandon Sanderson quote is being thrown around a little too easily in some cases. Correct me if I'm wrong, but these are essentially what he says, right? "It would be unwise to say Perrin was better than Egwene BASED ON THAT SCENE" and "Bear in mind that Egwene was rusty and distracted during that fight and Perrin had just done a lot of combat training" Whilst I can definitely see why people think this implies that this means Perrin isn't better than Egwene in general, at the end of the day, it doesn't actually say that outright. Using it to counteract statements saying "Perrin is obviously better because look how surprised Egwene is!" is not only understandable, but obvious, but it doesn't say that Perrin is definitely not better than Egwene, no matter what suggestions/ evidence you see to the contrary- hence my capitalisation of the words "Based on that scene". I definitely see why people use the quote from BS to say "Well, I think this implies that Egwene is stronger", but that's different from saying "Brandon says everyone who think Perrin might be better than Egwene is being unwise". Not everyone bases their arguments off that scene, a lot of the ones I've seen mention their differing training experiences and fighting strategies. I think the willpower trick/ strategy might well come down to who has the strongest willpower, yes... but I wouldn't be so quick to assume that Perrin would definitely cave in under those circumstances. I think he's pretty determined and stubborn when he wants to be. I like the idea of a big TAR battle with Egwene/ Dreamwalkers taking on another Forsaken, and Perrin and the wolves taking down Slayer. Though, I confess, I'd kind of like Moghedien's final showdown to be with Nynaeve, and I can't help but think that it might well be Rand that takes down Cyndane/Lanfear, based on their backstory. Admittedly, its unlikely that a battle would slot so neatly into story/character applicable battles, but I suspect the Wheel of Time might go down this road to some extent, anyway :P Maybe Black Ajah, or Darkfriend Aiel Dreamwalkers, if not Forsaken? Are there any Darkfriend Aiel Dreamwalkers? One would assume they'd have some tricks up their sleeve, we've seen how adept the Wise Ones are at using TAR. Of course, ideally, as people have said before, Perrin and the Dreamwalkers should get together and exchange some tricks, to make them all more effective in TAR. But that would require communication, and everyone in the Wheel of Time seems to think that too much communication will give them herpes or something.
  6. Do you think the reforms she has instituted and her thoughts on how the WT needs to change in the future are a step in the right direction? I think some of Egwene's reforms have definitely been good ideas- opening the novice book to older ages, changing the laws on ter'angreal, the motion in the Hall to prevent secret meetings, etc. Egwene's political outlook as leader of the WT is interesting in the sense that whilst in some ways, she comes across as very open to change and willing to accept it, in other areas, she is quite traditional. She acknowledges that the WT cannot expect to hold onto its perceived channeling supremacy and ter'angreal possessions now that other channeling factions, male and female, have made themselves public. She opens the novice book, despite the fact that "its not how this is done" in the eyes of many other AS. She admits to the Wise Ones that "she is the leader of those fools", implying she is aware that AS are not perfect and almighty. But whilst her reforms have definitely showed a positive and necessary attitude towards change, they have also worked largely for the benefit of the WT- they have gained more novices, strengthening their numbers and power. They have lost some ter'angreal, but have gained the possibility of new knowledge (and potentially powerful new AS) from amongst the WO and WFs. The banning of secret meetings will hopefully prevent anything like the Tower split from happening again. And of course, this is all understandable, she is the leader of the AS, and is expected to make decisions that will benefit her organisation. But where are her apologies for the wrongs the tower has done? Apologies to Rand, as the leader of the AS, apologies to the people of Tar Valon who have suffered as a result of the Tower split. Where are her commands that the Greens should be out fighting in the Borderlands, or the Yellows travelling around and offering healing? Or commanding the Browns to open schools, or offer learning? The idea of "AS must be seen as strong and aloof, we must command obedience and not admit to faults or weaknesses" is still there, I think, the problem is, the rest of the world has seen the Tower split in half and fight itself, the world is no longer blind to their faults, and I think they may risk fostering resentment if they keep trying to appear that way. I think that, whilst she is definitely aware of TG approaching, and the need to fight the Shadow, and whilst I don't believe she would consciously decide to do something that would put the Light at risk, however much it benefitted the WT, I do think she has the "traditional", if you like, attitude of believing that the WT and the AS need to be seen as respected, and leader, etc. which IS an attitude that has bred arrogance over the many years it has been held by the Tower. Egwene's far from the worst culprit, and there's a lot to be said for her attitude in some respects, but IMO, rather than the channelers (both male and female) seeing themselves as somehow above, and more important than other non-channelers, they need to be taught to use their powers to serve all. And that's not really an attitude we've seen from Egwene, or from many AS at all in the series. Nynaeve's words after her test, about how the AS let the WT become an end in itself, and how stupid it is to walk slowly and reservedly when there are people who need your help, purely to give off the serene AS image is something that I think many readers can agree with, but it seems that this is definitely seen as a view held by "outsiders" amongst AS, rather than the organisation itself, and that's something I don't see changing under Egwene. In other words, I think her reforms are a good thing for the WT, and I think they, as an organisation, need someone leading them who accepts change, because its coming, like it or not. But I don't think they are necessarily steps that will lead to the AS accepting a lesser status, or expecting respect and obedience as their due. Aes Sedai meaning "Servants of All" has been mentioned, but I don't see Egwene being the one to take the steps to make it the case once again.
  7. To the Aes Sedai, it's similar to a president/ruler acting as a servant to another country's president/ruler or even to something lower than that, such as an average foreigner. That is the highness of the opinion they have of themselves. Either that or the whole taint and how male channelers were viewed thing. You know, that three thousand year old guaranteed death, insanity and destruction that was only fixed in WH and not made widespread(if that) knowledge until much later. Sure that wouldn't have freaked anyone out. Not to say AS don't think they are better than everyone else but compared to the above it's not really relevant. Except that even after Ny told Egwene and Siuan that saiden is clean, Egwene still is upset about AS being bonded to Asha'man and thinks of it as a crime Rand must answer for. There is that... I think its a mixture of factors. The horror of men who can channel, and their fate, is definitely, IMO, a factor in the early horror of the idea. But I think its also to do with the AS attitude- the bonding between Warders and AS isn't exactly an equal bond- Warders do as commanded, and protect and defend their AS, or that's the idea. And AS have been "on top", so to speak, for many years. They hold immense political power, they're seen as being "above" normal people, they take command and demand respect as their rights (I'm not saying they're a terrible institution, nor that they haven't done many good things in the past, but there does definitely seem to be an arrogance in the organisation and the vast majority of its members), and now, there are several of their own number on the opposite end of the Warder bond- something that puts them, if we go by the traditional AS/ Warder dynamic, under the command of these channeling men. As I've said, for an organisation that largely sees respect and deference from outsiders as its right, that has to be galling. There may well be the issue of forbidden bonding, too, but given that they did go in there to kill the Asha'man, its difficult to see another way to safeguard themselves from these AS without stilling or killing them. So, in conclusion, I think its a mixture of the traditional horror of men who can channel, and the idea that these women will share their fate, and the attitude and outlook of the AS that believe AS should command obedience and respect. Hence why, after Egwene knows that the taint is cleansed, she is still angry at the idea of AS bonded. That's my thoughts, anyway.
  8. Well, I think Brandon's pro Egwene opinion outweighs a lot of yours, so I'm not too worried about that. When has Brandon ever said that Egwene is superior to Perrin? He's said it would be unwise to assume that Perrin is better than Egwene based off that one scene, because Egwene was rusty and distracted, and Perrin has just spent time training. I still interpret it as being "Well, OK, it kind of looks like Perrin pwns Egwene massively based on that scene, so let me try and correct that assumption." It doesn't mean Egwene is stronger than Perrin, it doesn't even mean than Perrin isn't stronger overall (just that we would be unwise to assume this was the case based purely on that scene). Personally I think they're probably about equal in skills, just have different strengths, and that BS, when confronted with the question "Doesn't that scene show that Perrin's better in TAR?" (words to that effect, I know that's paraphrased) didn't want that impression to be given off by that scene. I could be wrong of course. Its very unlikely that we'll find out, since unless one of them is turned to the Dark in the last book (in which case, yeah, I could definitely see them fighting as the two TAR heavyweights of the main cast), which I think unlikely- we've had ample oppurtunity for this to happen to both of them in the series so far- its much more likely they'll team up in TAR to defeat other enemies there. And when Brandon says "Dreaming is Egwene's thing", isn't he referring to a comment about whether or not Rand is a Dreamer?
  9. Firstly, PiotrekS, I agree with pretty much everything you've said above. Why do a few of the anti-Egwene crowd always reference this like it was a bad thing. This was one of the more progressive WT reforms and will benefit all channeling groups in the long run. Egwene says flat out the WT can not continue as it has. ToM I think the quote below proves a source of contention: No Amys, Egwene thought, I will not tie you in bands of steel. I'll use lace instead. Some people read this as "We'll be linked to each other by something that makes us want to be linked", and others read it as "We'll tie you to the WT, but we'll use lace so you don't realise you're being tied at first". Difference of interpretation, obviously if you read it as the first, it sounds lovely, and if you read it as the second, not so much. I agree that uniting the channelers is a good step in the right direction, and will certainly be useful against the shadow. But- and this is a negative point for all involved- it shouldn't matter in the battle against the shadow who is "on top", and the superior force. Indeed, I personally don't think any of them should be. I think the fact that the AS get a lot more backlash from this scene, though, is the fact that they have had the most coverage in the series of all the groups, and much of that has been a pretty negative view of the organisation as a whole, especially compared to the Wise Ones- in other words "Why should these women be in charge of the channelling women, they suck!" Individual AS are quite well liked by the readers, but a lot of readers, judging by this forum, seem to dislike the AS as an overall organisation. That's my thoughts, anyway.
  10. As far as rescuing the other AS go, its simply not practical. Bear in mind, that for all Egwene's firepower, and for all that she was saying afterwards about how she was a magnificent fighter called by the horn, and they wouldn't dare face her again, she, and the rest of the Tower, I'd suspect, know they are no match for the Seanchan in firepower. They know the Seanchan have collared many AS, to add to their existing forces. If they gateway'd in, many damane would sound the alarm. They'd have to be ready to fight, and to be effective in a fight (and bear in mind, this would not just be against a raiding force, this would be into the heart of the main Seanchan forces), they'd need a fair few AS, preferably strong ones, to link with, and possibly some angreal and sa'angreal, as Egwene used. They risk more sisters being killed or captured, even if they manage to defend themselves in a fight, they risk sa'angreal falling into the Seanchan's hands. Very few in the WT would be willing to risk it, and I think in this case, they've got it right. Now, I agree it is a horrible thing to allow these women to be subjected to, however, whilst I'm no lover of Egwene by any means, I think with the Last Battle on the doorstep, to put themselves at risk like that (not to mention potentially depleting the Seanchan army, which will likely be an asset against the dark, though I doubt the WT is thinking of that aspect) would be foolish.
  11. Interesting question. I think what we've seen is Nynaeve not so much deciding she doesn't need the WT, as being part of their organisation, and following their rules and power structure (we see her officially acknowledge Egwene as Amyrlin, and she agrees to take the test for the shawl, etc.), whilst at the same time, acknowledging that, if at some point in the future she has to choose between following the WT, and doing what she believes is right, then she won't hesitate in following her own judgement. She's not the only example of this, I think- we've already seen Moiraine and Siuan do much the same (hiding their activities from the WT, even though they knew they'd be punished for it, because it was the right thing to do), and I wouldn't be surprised if Cadsuane and her followers, or some of the bound AS, or some that are/ have been attached to various armies (Teslyn, etc.) may well come to the same realisation in this last book. That's not to say that they will need to- theoretically, after all, they are all aiming for the same goal of defeating the DO. But they may well disagree on methods, and we have seen several AS coming to realise that their organisation, and they themselves, do not always know best, and may well be more willing to listen to, and side with others, than just simply following the WT. For example: We know that Nynaeve plans to go to SG with Rand. I imagine that Teslyn will have a good deal of respect for Mat's viewpoint, etc. That's very different from saying "Screw you!" to the WT as a whole, though. That's saying "I'll be part of you, but if it comes down to you telling me to do something that I don't think is the right thing to do, then I'm not just going to agree with you automatically." Which I don't think is a bad thing at all. I think the WT, and AS as a whole are likely to lose some influence in the world, as new channelling groups are springing up. The exchange program with WOs and Windfinders may counter some of this, that remains to be seen. But as a whole: other cultures no longer have to hide away their own channelers for fear the Aes Sedai will try and take them away to the WT (some might argue over the exchange program students, which might be a sticking point, but again, we will see). The Kin have also come out into the open, and whilst they might be tied to the WT, I can see some women choosing to train to Accepted level, and leave for the Kin, rather than become AS. Whether the AS and Asha'man become two parts of the same organisation, or whether they remain separate, and (possibly) accept opposite gender members, female channelers will no longer be seen as the ultimate authority. So, yes, I do think we will see some powerful and/or skilled female channelers choosing not to be part of the WT. I can see many joining the AS but without seeing them as the kind of all powerful institution that they are perhaps seen as now (they have, after all, just recovered from a massive split and been raided by the Seanchan- even if they keep the number of Black Ajah quiet, people are bound to notice those two events). As for people joining but putting their own judgement before the Tower, I think that's always been the case for some sisters, Nynaeve's just an obvious recent example. On a slightly different note, I was kind of disappointed Nynaeve didn't literally decide she didn't need the WT. More for her character arc than anything else. The whole series we've seen Nynaeve struggling for acceptance from people- when we first meet her, she is an extraordinary Wisdom, but one who is frequently criticised simply for being "too young", an argument which we see brought up again with the Kin. Several in the WT look down on her because she is a wilder, despite her potential. Later, despite her impressive discoveries, her actions in healing stilling, helping cleanse the taint, and being the sole AS representative that the DR would have anything to do with for a while, other AS consistently look down on her because of the manner of her raising. She is an excellent Wisdom, a powerful channeler and an uncommonly skilled healer, but she does seem to crave recognition and resents it heavily when she is not given it. This testing and its aftermath would have been a good oppurtunity for her to realise, and state, that she has spent the last year proving herself as an AS, more so than most of those testing her, I'd wager. She passed the test, with all of them trying to make sure she failed, and she did it in her own way. She proved that she was more than worthy of the shawl, and rather than having this group of women who'd just treated her like crap telling her that she'd passed "narrowly", and she lacked the "proper AS calm", tell them that if that's how they want their organisation to behave then they're not worthy of her :P I mean, I understand why they didn't do that- Egwene would have lost an ally and the WT would have lost a powerful channeler, and RJ/BS are unlikely to let this happen. But still, it would have been a nice "end" for that aspect of Nynaeve's character growth. OK, so kind of off topic, but against my better wishes, Nynaeve IS AS, so I guess its not too OT.
  12. Of course that isn't entirely accurate--there was an entirely selfish element to Egwene's actions after being caught out in the Dream where she shouldn't be, and with Nynaeve threatening to expose her--I've no desire to protect Egwene, but sensationalistic extrapolation such as offered by randsc achieves nothing. No offence, but your presentation is pretty much exactly the same as randsc's first suggestion, except that you have exchanged the word "friend" for "daughter", and then gone on about the great motivations your hypothetical person has for doing so. Except, as you then admit, Egwene's motivations aren't really anything to do with that, thus making your own scenario just as invalid. If your issue is the parent/child dynamic with the earlier examples, then fair enough. If we take this into account, added to the fact that most people in this discussion agree that Egwene was mostly, if not solely, motivated in her actions by trying to cover her own arse, whilst also agreeing that some of the points she made were fair ones, then perhaps a better scenario would be thus: "I hang out in this dodgy area of town. I am aware of its dangers, but choose to hang out here anyway, because I'm seeing someone who lives here, and I know my parents would try and stop me if they found out. Recently, my friend began walking through this area on her way home from college- we know each other pretty well, and she sometimes talks to my parents. I was worried that if she found out that I was seeing this guy and hanging out here a lot without permission, she'd tell my parents. So, I got some of my boyfriends friends to grab her when she was walking home to scare her. They scratched her up a bit, and tore her clothes, and she ran off. She's doesn't walk down here anymore, so my secret's safe! But I realised afterwards that I probably did her a favour, because it WAS a dangerous area, after all, so its not like she wasn't at risk." Admittedly, still not entirely accurate, as whilst Nynaeve avoids Egwene after this encounter, she doesn't avoid TAR, but by and large, would we agree that this is a reasonable comparison? Don't get me wrong, I can understand that sometimes people can do bad/unfriendly things (ie. insulting and attacking Nynaeve) for the right reasons (to teach her a lesson in TAR). Except that we know from Egwene's own POV that her bad/unfriendly actions were motivated by much dodgier reasons of wanting her friend to keep quiet and keep herself out of trouble, and the "teaching of a lesson" was just a beneficial side effect. Especially galling given that, as others have said, she was doing exactly what she was chastising Nynaeve for (wandering TAR without permission or adequate training, whilst covering up the truth to make herself look better), IMO. (This last bit isn't really aimed at you, Luckers, I know you already said that you didn't deny this aspect of it)
  13. I think this is true, and I hope Egwene will start leaning in this direction (I'd also chuck Siuan's name in there as well). I'm of the opinion that the more power a person gains, the more they need people to stand up to them, and be honest with them, especially to the point of disagreeing where necessary. For example: its pretty clear that without Nynaeve, Cadsuane, Min, etc. around Rand, there would have been even more destruction than happened in the books- the Borderlander army, for starters. Now, Nynaeve has gone to the WT, but Rand still has his advisors around him who, in some cases, WILL disagree with him, or give him advice when necessary- I don't think it would hurt him to have a few more, either. The Seanchan royal family have actual political stations for people to do just this for their members. But Egwene, and indeed other Amyrlins that we've seen, don't seem to have this so much. I mean, they have obstacles to overcome, they know that not every AS will agree with their decision, but its usually presented as something that has to be gotten around, rather than listened to. Obviously in some cases this idea has merit- Siuan and Moiraine seeking out the DR, for example- but Egwene does seem to take dissent and disagreement from other AS (and Gawyn) to be measures of disrespect or stubbornness, or simply being wrong, rather than something she should listen to. I don't know if this was an unintentional suggestion by the author, but at times it does come across a bit like "You need people around you willing to question your decisions and stand up to you- unless you're the Amyrlin Seat, in which case to do so is to show disrespect, or just be wrong." Still, perhaps the events with Gawyn were leading up to a realisation that this isn't the way to go, and we'll see that reflected more in the next book... OK, that was rambly... basically, yes, I agree with what you said. Public respect is a good thing for AS to express to their leader, exceptional circumstances aside (I think Elaida could have done with some tough love rather than respect :P), but expecting that close friends and lovers should treat you in private as they would in public is also stretching it. In public, you are their leader, they the followers, in private, you are friends/ lovers. If, in private, you require them to treat you like their leader, then you're not really friends/ lovers, as such, IMO.
  14. Bizarrely, I've never given this much thought.. I mean, in terms of purely looks, its got to be Galad, objectively. Everyone thinks he's great looking. He doesn't sound much like my type, but if we're talking world consensus. For the whole package- looks, personality, etc.- I'd say probably Mat. He's obviously got enough charm and wit and looks to get plenty of women, he's somewhat more experienced than Galad in his dealings with women. For myself, I don't have an opinion, really. I guess Mat, if I had to pick?
  15. I really, really hope that if there is a meeting between Cadsuane/ Moiraine and Egwene (which I assume there will be) then it will be done well. We have evidence that these are two strong willed, intelligent women- if they get written as idiots so Egwene can look good then I will cry. I imagine they will have respect for each other (well, I'd hope so, anyway), whether they agree with each other on methods/ viewpoints or not, and I'd rather see it as a disagreement than pretty much every other Egwene vs *insert AS name here* we've had in the series. That said, maybe they'll all agree with each other and get on great. Who knows?
  16. I tend to agree with the interpretation that the nightmare wasn't planned but was still meant as a distraction. Bear in mind that whilst Egwene was talking, she WAS preventing Nynaeve from speaking and returning to the topic at hand, but Nynaeve kept trying to interrupt her, up until the point Egwene summoned the nightmare. Given that Egwene's speech had cut off Nynaeve's question about whether she was allowed in TAR on her own, its not unreasonable for Egwene to assume that Nynaeve is going to go straight back to asking that question, especially given that she "flushed with embarassment" and is sure Nynaeve will manage to get it out of her. Once she summons the nightmare, Nynaeve is shocked into distraction, and pleading with Egwene, and afterwards, she talks about how she could have handled it herself- Egwene knows for certain at this stage that she has effectively moved Nynaeve's focus away from Egwene's ability/ permissions, and onto Nynaeve's. Once again, I am not saying that she was planning to be a bitch to her friend, but I do think that the nightmare WAS used as part of the coverup. If it wasn't, and was genuinely meant to teach Nynaeve about her shortcomings in TAR, then why, given that it demonstrated a point, does she not use the exact same, or similar, display on Elayne? After all, Elayne also hops around TAR, and also has limited knowledge of the dangers. But Elayne doesn't question Egwene on whether she's allowed to be there or not, and is never treated the way Nynaeve was. Hence my conclusions: Egwene acted harshly throughout that scene, to cover up her lie to the WOs, and then to cement her apparent superiority over Nynaeve, perhaps to prevent the question from coming up again, perhaps because she enjoys it. She does not inflict the same treatment on others, even if they are at the same, or lower levels of skill. As I've said above, I think RJ intended this as a tipping of the balance, yes, but also as a precursor to Egwene's dealings with the Hall and other AS in Salidar. If she acted as she had before this point in the series, and shouted and sulked and sniped at anyone who tried to control her or tell her what to do, then she would very quickly have cemented her reputation as a child pawn, and would likely have acted as such. This is an early example of her using calm to get "on top" of a situation and a person, which is important to Egwene's later developments, I would say. Unfortunately, getting on top in this case meant covering up her own lie, humiliating her friend and then being delighted with the results. @damandred: I don't get it either, its one of the things that irks me (along with a few months of training being enough to make an inexperienced Rand into a Blademaster in TGH). I think RJ was trying to make it look like Egwene is a political mastermind, unfortunately because the gap is so ridiculously large, given her limited training time (the series lasts about 2 years, I believe, and with her Wise One training and BA hunting, her politics and channelling training put together make up less than half of that time, in all likelihood. And yet, Centuries old AS are asking for her advice on Warders, and how to deal with the tower split, etc?), and because its acheieved mostly by having every other AS act like a moron whilst Egwene spouts what is basic common sense, it doesn't really work. It doesn't take a genius to know Elaida sucks, nor how to try and foster a little harmony between Ajahs. It doesn't even take someone especially smart. The effect tends to make people either a) annoyed because showing someone's skills by making everyone around them have an attack of stupid is kind of shoddy writing, or b) Make the whole AS organisation look like a load of bumbling fools (What's that? Everyone in your organisation can be outsmarted by a barely trained 19 year old handing out basic common sense?- and yes, I'm aware Egwene's training has been wide ranging, but because of this, and the time limitations, it means her time spent on aforementioned skills has been sparse) It puts women who are, on the one hand supposed to be an organisation of master manipulators who have retained a hold over the world's politics for centuries, and makes the reader wonder how on Earth they manage to have the intelligence to feed and dress themselves of a morning.
  17. That simply doesn't follow, biologically. Why not? Channelers age several times slower. A 400 man that can channel has all the characteristics of a 50+ man. Why shouldn't this be the same for women? They don't age on the outside, but they are rotting inside?!? I don't follow your line of thought. But once a woman hits the menopause, she can no longer reproduce. Whilst I believe that, generally speaking, as a man's age increases, his fertility levels decrease (Biology= not my strong point), a man can theoretically impregnate a woman at any point in his life. So in other words, if a channeller is born with exactly the same reproductive capabilities as a non-channelling woman, and has a reproductive cycle of the same length, then, in theory, she will be out of her childbearing years at around the same time as the average non-channeller. Whereas whilst a 400 year old man is likely to be less fertile than his younger self, he is still physically able to impregnate women. That said, Siuan's in her 40s, and theoretically still quite capable of bearing children, as far as I know, channeller or otherwise. Also, Elayne hasn't slowed yet, so if slowing has an effect on the menstrual cycle, as it has on things like greying hair, which I suspect it does, then it may well just not have taken hold in her yet, and would explain why she was "in sync" with Birgitte.
  18. Seriously, Kael? I'm kind of getting tired of this "If you read a scene and come out with a negative impression of Egwene, then you have read it WRONG, because I like Egwene and I have a different interpretation to yours, so my reading is RIGHT." attitude in certain pro-Egwene posts. Egwene starts her rant on the dangers of TAR only AFTER Nynaeve mentions her being on her own. There is no evidence to suggest that she had any intention of giving Nynaeve her "lesson" until it looked like she might get busted for doing something she shouldn't. Afterwards, she thinks about how she'd kept the focus on what Nynaeve had done wrong, because she desperately didn't want the WOs finding out about what she'd done- that was clearly the focus and the reasoning behind it. Later on, she is delighted with how the balance is shifted- not because the balance is now equal, but because now she can make Nynaeve jump and cringe with a look and a sentence. She is disappointed when Nynaeve doesn't appear again, despite the fact that the end result is exactly the same with seeing Elayne, because she was looking forward to using her new skills on Nynaeve again. There is no evidence in the text to suggest that Egwene planned any of what she did to Nynaeve, and there is plenty of evidence that her primary motivation was to cover up what Egwene did wrong. No-one is debating that Nynaeve is not as good as the Aiel dreamwalkers. No-one is debating that TAR is dangerous. But in Egwene's mind, the dangers of TAR are just mentioned as an aside, putting Nynaeve off the scent of the WOs, and cowing her/ distracting her until she doesn't ask any more questions is her aim. The text is perfectly clear on that. Saying "the dangers she had told Nynaeve about were true" would have been a totally irrelevant sentence had educating Nynaeve been her initial aim, that would simply have been assumed. That sentence is there only to serve to tell us that, despite Egwene's aims being her own secrets, she told the truth about TAR being dangerous. randsc put an analogy up in an old Egwene thread once, and I can't remember it word for word, but I remember the gist of it, so credit goes to him for this: A man is having an affair with a woman. His daughter walks home from work every night, and sometimes she walks near this woman's house, which happens to be in a dodgy area of town. She's been warned against walking through it, because its a dangerous area, but she continues to do it. The man is worried that if she continues to walk this close to the woman's house, she will find out about their affair. So he pays some men to molest his daughter one night. She never goes back there, so he has covered up his affair- and in happy coincidence, she now takes a safer route home as a direct result of his actions. Does that make his actions OK, does it make him a good father? I'm actually kind of curious- if they hadn't been in TAR, or if Nynaeve had been more experienced, and caught Egwene out THEN, do you really think that Egwene would have said "Oh, fair enough, the Wise Ones won't let me come here yet", or would she have done exactly what she did- turn on Nynaeve with some other pretext until her secret was forgotten? You highlighted the passage where Nynaeve talks about the balance shifting between her and Egwene. Note that first she talks about how the balance shifted to being the Wisdom and the girl who jumped to being two women far from home (which Nynaeve herself started in TGH, by telling Egwene that they were no longer Wisdom and Apprentice, and Egwene shouldn't give her the title), she THEN talks about how the balance has shifted further- ie. they are no longer equal, Egwene sees herself/ is seen as "superior", and that is what Nynaeve has a problem with. That's how I read it. Let me guess - I need to read the text again until I agree with you? No, you are not allowed to have an opinion on the text if there is other text that obviously discredits your interpretation. And I have been pretty thorough in explaining why the various lines across the entire chapter and 2 PoVs discredit the idea that Egwene had Nynaeve ravaged just to hide her secret. It simply cannot be true, it is not a matter of "interpretation". And yet, the blind Egwene fan is the only person here who interprets the scene that way. It's not an opinion or an interpretation. The text explicitly makes it clear that Egwene's purpose in scaring Nynaeve is to cover up her own wrong doings. The educating Nynaeve about the dangers of TAR line is just her BS explanation to Nynaeve for it. Perhaps you should condesend a little less when you're the only one here with the reading comprehension problem. You like Egwene, that's cool. This action alone is nasty, but I can understand if you think her positives still outweigh her negatives and continue to like her. But to claim this scene is her doing anything other than covering her own ass by treating her friend poorly is just a willfully wrong reading of the book. Know what? I'm just going to +1 this, Kael, because for all I usually enjoy debating with you, despite our differences of opinion, I honestly don't see how your interpretation rings true in the text at all, I think its made perfectly clear that Egwene's primary purpose is to distract Nynaeve from her secret and cover her own ass- beforehand, she shows no indication of planning to educate Nyn and Elayne in the dangers of TAR, its just what crops up in her head when she's trying her distracting. Despite the fact that the argument that "Egwene is a wonderful girl who's just trying to keep her friend safe and just happens to keep her secret and enjoy it immensely is just a happy aside for her" kind of annoys me given my view of the text, I don't say "You're an idiot who is reading the book totally wrong. You're not allowed your opinion because there is other text that obviously discredits your opinion" (and I do believe this is the case with your opinion, to be blunt), because that would be rude and condescending. People read the text differently to you (even others who like Egwene), and we obviously don't agree with other interpretations of the text. Well, hi, if we all thought the same, we'd all either love or hate Egwene. But please, don't tell me I'm not entitled to my opinion when I've read this passage exhaustively. Thank you. Or, if we're going to try and disallow others opinions: I believe that the White Tower can transform into a giant robot and battle its foes. Disagree with me all you want, but try and disallow me that opinion? Have fun with that, I await the brainwaves eagerly ;P (Pardon the sarcasm in this paragraph, trying to lighten the mood a little). Also: @Suttree: I'd agree that its a moment in Egwene's coming of age- I see it more as a transition into AS, as I don't recall any instances of Nynaeve bullying Egwene- the two of them butting heads, yes, but Egwene was always just as belligerent as Nynaeve in those instances, if not more. This scene is an early instance of her showing calm, to get her own way. I think her realisation of how well it worked is a precursor to her dealings as Amyrlin with the hall later. I don't agree with what she did, but I think from an author POV it was to show her moving on from the sulky girl who resents Nynaeve's leadership and rebels against it with arguments, to someone who understands how to use calm words to undermine her opponents, something she uses quite regularly later in the series when dealing with other AS. That's what I assumed, anyway :) And I don't know if I'm included in the "claims that Eg tortured Nyn for sadistic pleasure", but for my part, I don't think that was part of her initial motivation at all, I think initially she intended to cover up her secret, but enjoyed the power she'd had over Nynaeve in their encounter and wanted to see if had held, and if Nynaeve would see her as "superior", not that she wanted to conjure up magical dream rapists on Nyn again for lolz. Just to clear it up :)
  19. Was Eggy wrong in what she did to Nyn...of course. She was terrified of not being able to continue learning in Tar, and made a bad decision in trying to cover it up. The above analogy is ridiculous however on a few levels. One Eggy can control with a thought the dream she showed Nyn, she controls it, it disappears exactly when she wants. Of course someone wouldn't be able to control real life thugs so there is no comparison between the two. Second we must look at motivations, in the example a man is cheating on his wife. With Egwene we know she wants to learn Tar to best help fight the shadow. She is learning something that will help the greater good, and is scared she will be unable to continue. A far cry from some scumbag having an affair. I accept your issues with the analogy, that's fair enough. I do think that to some extent, a love of learning and wanting to be better at TAR certainly comes into it as much as wanting to fight the Shadow- if there was no one to fight, I don't doubt that Egwene would still have wanted to keep learning, and keep her secret, and may well have followed the same course of action, however, we will never know whether I'm right or not, so I think this issue is where people diverge. Was Egwene covering up her secret for the greater good, was she doing it because she wanted to learn for herself, or was it a mixture of the above? What annoys me on the subject is when this scene is brought up, you inevitably get people saying that "Oh, Egwene did it because of the dangers in TAR, not because she wanted to cover up her secret!", despite the exact opposite being confirmed in the text, or, my personal favourite, "Nynaeve was in a position of authority over Egwene once, so its totally OK that Egwene enjoys bullying her and the idea of making her flinch with a word!" There is a world of difference between "Egwene made a bad decision, but its for the right reasons, IMO, so it doesn't affect my overall positive viewpoint of the character", which is what you're saying, and "Egwene did nothing wrong! She was motivated mostly by making sure Nynaeve was safe, and Nynaeve's so mean to people anyway!" which seems to me to be, in the first case, willful misinterpretation of text, and in the second, saying that what Egwene did was OK, because when Nynaeve acted in a similar manner (if she ever did) it was horrible bullying..?
  20. Seriously, Kael? I'm kind of getting tired of this "If you read a scene and come out with a negative impression of Egwene, then you have read it WRONG, because I like Egwene and I have a different interpretation to yours, so my reading is RIGHT." attitude in certain pro-Egwene posts. Egwene starts her rant on the dangers of TAR only AFTER Nynaeve mentions her being on her own. There is no evidence to suggest that she had any intention of giving Nynaeve her "lesson" until it looked like she might get busted for doing something she shouldn't. Afterwards, she thinks about how she'd kept the focus on what Nynaeve had done wrong, because she desperately didn't want the WOs finding out about what she'd done- that was clearly the focus and the reasoning behind it. Later on, she is delighted with how the balance is shifted- not because the balance is now equal, but because now she can make Nynaeve jump and cringe with a look and a sentence. She is disappointed when Nynaeve doesn't appear again, despite the fact that the end result is exactly the same with seeing Elayne, because she was looking forward to using her new skills on Nynaeve again. There is no evidence in the text to suggest that Egwene planned any of what she did to Nynaeve, and there is plenty of evidence that her primary motivation was to cover up what Egwene did wrong. No-one is debating that Nynaeve is not as good as the Aiel dreamwalkers. No-one is debating that TAR is dangerous. But in Egwene's mind, the dangers of TAR are just mentioned as an aside, putting Nynaeve off the scent of the WOs, and cowing her/ distracting her until she doesn't ask any more questions is her aim. The text is perfectly clear on that. Saying "the dangers she had told Nynaeve about were true" would have been a totally irrelevant sentence had educating Nynaeve been her initial aim, that would simply have been assumed. That sentence is there only to serve to tell us that, despite Egwene's aims being her own secrets, she told the truth about TAR being dangerous. randsc put an analogy up in an old Egwene thread once, and I can't remember it word for word, but I remember the gist of it, so credit goes to him for this: A man is having an affair with a woman. His daughter walks home from work every night, and sometimes she walks near this woman's house, which happens to be in a dodgy area of town. She's been warned against walking through it, because its a dangerous area, but she continues to do it. The man is worried that if she continues to walk this close to the woman's house, she will find out about their affair. So he pays some men to molest his daughter one night. She never goes back there, so he has covered up his affair- and in happy coincidence, she now takes a safer route home as a direct result of his actions. Does that make his actions OK, does it make him a good father? I'm actually kind of curious- if they hadn't been in TAR, or if Nynaeve had been more experienced, and caught Egwene out THEN, do you really think that Egwene would have said "Oh, fair enough, the Wise Ones won't let me come here yet", or would she have done exactly what she did- turn on Nynaeve with some other pretext until her secret was forgotten? You highlighted the passage where Nynaeve talks about the balance shifting between her and Egwene. Note that first she talks about how the balance shifted to being the Wisdom and the girl who jumped to being two women far from home (which Nynaeve herself started in TGH, by telling Egwene that they were no longer Wisdom and Apprentice, and Egwene shouldn't give her the title), she THEN talks about how the balance has shifted further- ie. they are no longer equal, Egwene sees herself/ is seen as "superior", and that is what Nynaeve has a problem with. That's how I read it. Let me guess - I need to read the text again until I agree with you?
  21. ... I would love to see that, actually XD Cadsuane is a bit of a force of nature, her in TAR could be awesome. But I wonder if she would fall prey to the same thinking that Egwene did, until Perrin corrected her- that channeling can harm you in the dreamworld. Hmmm...
  22. Wasn't it pretty harshly commented on both times by AS as if it was outside of the norm? Yes, it was- though, as I said, since its not really "the done thing" to discuss an AS test after its ended, it could be that other sisters had exercised bias before and it just wasn't realised how widespread it was. Particularly if it wasn't as serious as in these two cases. And harsh commenting isn't really a deterrent. I don't have NS to hand, alas, so I can't comment on how Elaida was treated afterwards, beyond knowing that words were said, but certainly in Nynaeve's case, all that happened was Saerin got angry with the others because of their behaviour. None of them were assigned punishments that we saw, they didn't even get reprimanded by the Amyrlin Seat or made to apologise to Nynaeve. None of them seemed especially ashamed or reprimanded by this. That's the problem- if all the deterrent is that another AS (not necessarily one in a position of authority) is going to have a bit of a go at them, then its not surprising if this is more widespread than those isolated cases. If you've potentially got power over someone's life and death, and you've definitely got power over someone being raised to full sister or put out of the tower, then there needs to be an official sanction, or list of sanctions, that get slapped on any sister trying to use the test to further some agenda. @Kael- Yeah, I imagine there's probably a little more bias-in-favour, due to the reasons you've named.
  23. True, we've only seen two cases of this, but then, these are the only 2 AS tests we've seen in the entire series, and both of them have been affected by someone with a grudge participating in the test. I realise the circumstances behind Nynaeve's raising were such that quite a few sisters were annoyed, and felt she didn't have the right to the shawl, so it might have been harder to weed them out, but this wasn't the case with Moiraine- she was raised through the proper channels, and a sister who was known to have reason to dislike her participated in the test. I can't imagine this was the only case of such a thing happening, or of someone going easy on a candidate that they wanted for their Ajah. Bear in mind, its generally considered "not done" to talk about what happens within someone's test, so whilst we have no evidence of this happening more than twice, beyond probability, if the sisters involved never discussed it, how would we know unless we were shown the test? And if this was a rare occurence, all the more reason to come down like a ton of bricks on the sisters in that test- if its that rare, they should have known how out of line they were being, and have even less excuse for what they did.
  24. I'm debating in my head whether its Faile or Nynaeve... definitely one of those two, though. Got to love a fiery one ;) EDIT: After lengthy personal debate, I voted Faile ^^
  25. As I've said before, I can see both positive and negative aspects to the test. I think the test, in theory (being able to channel weaves of reasonable complexity under pressure) is a good idea- the complexity and variety of the weaves being there to test the ability of the person doing the weaving, and the other aspects of the test there to make sure she won't go to pieces when faced with something bad. HOWEVER, we've seen two AS tests in any detail, (Nynaeve and Moiraine) and in both tests, the women performing the tests have actively tried to make them fail- not in the "I don't want you to have it easy" way, but in the "I don't want you to pass this" way. I mean, in Moiraine's case, it was actually known that she and Elaida had crossed paths before the test, and yet she was still allowed to take part? These are tests that have been, not just harsh, but have actually been labelled as inappropriate by the other AS performing the tests. The Aiel sometimes die in their rituals, true, but theirs aren't powered by someone with a vendetta against them. I realise that the AS ter'angreal being people-powered means that this is always a risk, but they obviously have guidelines as to how far AS should go during a testing (however unofficial or unacknowledged they may be), or Saerin wouldn't have reacted as she did to Nynaeve's test. If someone uses the test as an excuse to inflict punishment on an Accepted/ AS, or is taken too far, those sisters should be punished, and not allowed to take part in another testing- if not forever, then for several decades at least. Testing is acceptable, risks are acceptable, bullying should not be, and we've seen no real punishment being inflicted on those who misuse this incredible, potentially fatal power, over another person. And given that these two are the only tests we've seen, what are the chances that these are the only times this has ever happened. Or what about the reverse? An AS taking it easy on an Accepted that they like, and want in their Ajah? If we're talking about the test in general, and going by most of Moiraine's test and the early part of Nynaeve's, where the distractions are mainly embarassment, or physical threats to the person in question, then yes, that makes sense. A person will need to keep her head and channel when she is in danger, or if she's uncomfortable. The instructions are there to remind her where to go and what to do when she gets there, presumably to stop people just wandering off and getting lost forever inside the ter'angreal. But a lot of the obstacles in Nynaeve's test- helping defend people against dark creatures, healing the sick, etc- seem to be going directly against what the WT supposedly stands for (they are seen as one of the primary forces against the DO and his forces in Randland. Their name means Servants of All. They have a whole Ajah dedicated to healing, another to battle, etc.) because of a nonsensical command in her head. As someone else has said- had Rand just listened to some of the voices in his head, we'd be facing some severe devastation. Of course, sometimes Nynaeve (or whoever) would have to put aside healing or helping someone to focus on the "greater good", but at least she'd have some knowledge of why she had to, not just some thought planted in her head that says she should go over there and make a weave with no use. In conclusion: AS tests in general- have their faults (mostly the potential for human manipulation), but do seem to have a purpose. Nynaeve, and apparently Moiraine's test- Inappropriate behaviour by the AS performing the test, called on it both times by other AS. Need to have strict punishments in place for those AS who misuse the tests.
×
×
  • Create New...