Egwene ugh

[Ruadhri]

Great thread btw, so here's my two cents.

 

I like Egwene. I buy her. Sure she's too young to have the "wisdom" she has, political strength etc but as per her showdown with Mesaana, she is the amyrlin seat, the thing and the whole of the thing.

I believe she's taken this to heart now and her age is now irrelevant to her and she projects this.

 

I can quite happily suspend disbelief, I mentally add ten years to all of the TR folk. It works for me.

 

She's a prodigy and has become a leader. It's tarmon gaidon people! The tower needs a leader like her, incredibly strong, a dreamwalker, maker of cuendilliar and so on so the pattern makes it happen.

 

Like all leaders when a concept is put to her that is to her mind out of the question, then she won't entertain it, i.e. the mooted breaking of the seals.

 

Makes me think of a movie I saw once (can't remember anything else about it) but a post apocalyptic US president makes a decision and two of his team disagree with it after he's decided to make it so he just sacks them. Done. Leadership.

 

Some points to make to previous posts:

 

Re sexual nature of naked women during ceremonies I echo the point someone made re just ensuring that we're all women here. I believe upon the election of a new pop he's carried above the other cardinals to remind themselves that they managed to elect a female pope back in the day.

 

In TGS when Elaida and Egwene have their showdown at dinner (good point about Elaida being drunk, interesting) I recommend listening to the amazing audiobook.

 

Elaida makes a point then sits back and listens to Egwene speak for about two minutes at a time. I'd love to see that acted out, some serious editing required there.

Works on paper, but not on audio.

 

Re Hinderstap. I could hack it, thought it in itself was fine but Mat writing all these backstories was just rubbish. The only thing I really dislike (apart from anything to do with Elayne and or Faile).

 

Harriet's editing: None of us here can really say. Who knows how good or bad the copy is that she gets. I'm not an editor but I don't think we can comment. Just like the whole thing, it is what it is.

 

BS: Super writer in his own right but he's on a hiding to nothing with WOT, he'll never be RJ. Remember Bob Dylan wanted woodie guthrie's unfinished back catalogue?(Billy Bragg got it in the end).

 

Or a better example might be AI. Spielberg = genius. Kubrick = genius.

Spielberg finishing Kubricks movie = glad he did it but it's meh. It might have been meh anyway or even worse but it's what we have. Books 12, 13, 14 are what we have.

[Elan Tedronai]

It's bad enough that sanderson can't seem to write the characters well enough. It's bad enough that his writing style pales in comparison to jordan. what is shocking is harriet's editing. This is someone who has been on the series for years and yet could not see how the characters were off in TGS and TOM. And yet we the readers knew staright away.

 

Her editing skills are overrated

 

What you fail to realize or mention is that Sanderson said from the start he was not going to try and write as if he were RJ, that it would just be a recipe for disaster essentially and everything would feel off. Do certain characters have a different feel to them? Certainly, for both better and worse depending on your personal biases towards each character. For example I hated Nyn throughout essentially the entire series but she has become one I really enjoy since TGS, I feel overall BS writes much more entertaining female characters. He does however lack certain world experiences, such as being a soldier and combat veteran, that I related to in RJ's writing and felt really shined through in his work (the biggest difference in Mat's character and why many feel he seems off imo, although I do think Mat's "demise" is greatly exaggerated).

 

Regardless of your take on Sanderson's style versus Jordan I fail to see how you can't be happy that the series is seeing completion. Personally I feel he took on a very daunting and unenviable task in many respects, there was no way any author could make everyone happy, and has done an admirable job. In both the quality of his work as well as the dedication and work ethic he has put into a job much larger than he ever anticipated signing on. Would anyone rather have an author that said screw it and put in a half-assed effort because it was more than he expected? There was no way this project would have ever come out perfect.

 

One strength I will definitely give BS is that he has done a wonderful job bringing a darker feel to the story (something definitely needed approaching TG) and building a sense of impending climax. The Rand/Semirhage/Min scene in TGS was among the best chapters in the entire series, I was truly on the edge of my seat wondering if we were about to see Rand forcibly turned into Kinslayer 2.0. I felt more tension and worry that something truly horrific was about to happen than any other point in WoT, a very powerful scene. I think his handling of Rand Pre-Semi, Darth Rand and Zen Rand has been very well done. On my scoreboard the main protagonist and the culmination of his story arc is far and away the number one priority, and I have no complaints about BS in that regard whatsoever. Yeah we might get a handful of chapters such as Hinderstrap but that was no worse (imho infinitely better) than watching Elayne take baths or following a menagerie for six freaking books (<----Hyperbole for the slow kids that want to correct me, I am beating you to the punch).

 

 

Darker feel? all i see is black ajah getting destroyed, dark friends getting outed, forsaken getting beaten up.Return of zen rand. perrin finally becoming a man. moraine rescued. WT reunited. The only place where there is something brewing is in the black tower which will get vapourised in the opening few chapters of the next book. It's not even at TG yet and the darkies are getting squeezed out.

 

 

Sanderson cannot write the characters for whatever reason. And it showes. Egwene felt off in TOM. Aviendha and mat were just laughable. I cringed at that mat letter to elayne. It just looked so forced. Moraine's rescue was just wasted for such a long waited event. I am not blaming snderson. It's just the way it is.

 

 

As for the story. The story was finished back at TGS during the veins of gold chapter. It's just a procession now. Just a case who gets to die and who gets to live before the dark one gets sealed up back again.

[randsc]

As I understand it, Jordan wrote the ToG sequence. And I have to say that Mat's thoughts did sound mmore like Mat's thoughts, in that section.

 

I'd like to know who wrote the "boots" passage.

 

But yeah, Egwene was off, and Aviendha didn't have much of a distinct personality.

[Kal11]

I do have to add that after reading this thread I find myself liking Egwene far less. She was never a character I felt strongly about one way or another so many of her behaviors I overlooked, but when they are pointed out are petty and even despicable at times. I wanted her to die before because she was a character I was meh about but now I want her to die because she deserves it. If she does survive TG and goes on to lead the AS I can't see them ever turning things around.

 

The raken scene during the assault on the WT always amused me though. It was a total Invader Zim moment.

[Agitel]

It's bad enough that sanderson can't seem to write the characters well enough. It's bad enough that his writing style pales in comparison to jordan. what is shocking is harriet's editing. This is someone who has been on the series for years and yet could not see how the characters were off in TGS and TOM. And yet we the readers knew staright away.

 

Her editing skills are overrated

 

What you fail to realize or mention is that Sanderson said from the start he was not going to try and write as if he were RJ, that it would just be a recipe for disaster essentially and everything would feel off. Do certain characters have a different feel to them? Certainly, for both better and worse depending on your personal biases towards each character. For example I hated Nyn throughout essentially the entire series but she has become one I really enjoy since TGS, I feel overall BS writes much more entertaining female characters. He does however lack certain world experiences, such as being a soldier and combat veteran, that I related to in RJ's writing and felt really shined through in his work (the biggest difference in Mat's character and why many feel he seems off imo, although I do think Mat's "demise" is greatly exaggerated).

 

Regardless of your take on Sanderson's style versus Jordan I fail to see how you can't be happy that the series is seeing completion. Personally I feel he took on a very daunting and unenviable task in many respects, there was no way any author could make everyone happy, and has done an admirable job. In both the quality of his work as well as the dedication and work ethic he has put into a job much larger than he ever anticipated signing on. Would anyone rather have an author that said screw it and put in a half-assed effort because it was more than he expected? There was no way this project would have ever come out perfect.

 

One strength I will definitely give BS is that he has done a wonderful job bringing a darker feel to the story (something definitely needed approaching TG) and building a sense of impending climax. The Rand/Semirhage/Min scene in TGS was among the best chapters in the entire series, I was truly on the edge of my seat wondering if we were about to see Rand forcibly turned into Kinslayer 2.0. I felt more tension and worry that something truly horrific was about to happen than any other point in WoT, a very powerful scene. I think his handling of Rand Pre-Semi, Darth Rand and Zen Rand has been very well done. On my scoreboard the main protagonist and the culmination of his story arc is far and away the number one priority, and I have no complaints about BS in that regard whatsoever. Yeah we might get a handful of chapters such as Hinderstrap but that was no worse (imho infinitely better) than watching Elayne take baths or following a menagerie for six freaking books (<----Hyperbole for the slow kids that want to correct me, I am beating you to the punch).

 

 

Darker feel? all i see is black ajah getting destroyed, dark friends getting outed, forsaken getting beaten up.Return of zen rand. perrin finally becoming a man. moraine rescued. WT reunited. The only place where there is something brewing is in the black tower which will get vapourised in the opening few chapters of the next book. It's not even at TG yet and the darkies are getting squeezed out.

 

 

Sanderson cannot write the characters for whatever reason. And it showes. Egwene felt off in TOM. Aviendha and mat were just laughable. I cringed at that mat letter to elayne. It just looked so forced. Moraine's rescue was just wasted for such a long waited event. I am not blaming snderson. It's just the way it is.

 

 

As for the story. The story was finished back at TGS during the veins of gold chapter. It's just a procession now. Just a case who gets to die and who gets to live before the dark one gets sealed up back again.

 

Rand hardening in TGS wasn't dark?

 

Anyway, I felt that Sanderson did a much better job with Mat in ToM than in tGS. It wasn't 100% perfect, but it certainly felt more like Mat to me. I also didn't notice any problems with Avi. As for Moiraine's rescue, that was pretty much all Jordan, so you're problem lies with him. From what I've seen of the parts that Jordan had written, he HAD committed himself to finishing the story in a single book. I don't think he could have done it in the end without splitting it, but his writing certainly moves events a lot faster than he had in previous books.

 

And while you may feel that the story ended in VoG, I can't agree. I do agree that things came full circle, somewhat, but that doesn't constitute the end of the book, it just marks where the end begins. Rand is prepared, but he still has to get the world ready.

[Chivalry]

I've been on/off this site for years, usually lurking but not posting, and I expect the Egwene debate will never die. One either loves her or hates her. I'm not in the "I Love Egwene" camp.

 

What can I say that hasn't been said about this girl? She meets her childhoold friend, Perrin, in TAR, warns him that it's a dangerous place, and then proceeds to tie him up with weaves of air. She attempts to freeze a ta'avern in the dangerous world of dreams, during a battle that includes one of the Forsaken and an unknown number of Black Ajah, so she can deal with him later. Like sending a misbehaving child to timeout...in a room full of pedophiles. Her arrogance is obscene. Of all the good guys drawn up by RJ in the WoT, this is the one I dislike the most.

[Himiko]

2. That is also the point i was trying to make. IF RJ was trying to make her perfect, she would definitely need to be humbled in some way. But the thing is, every character has faults. If Egwene is arrogant and such, well, she gets her job done, so plot-wise, she doesnt need anything more.

 

 

Anyway, I agree with you. It really boils down to whether Egwene's personality is important enough plot wise to change for the better.

 

This is a good point. I guess that, although it isn't important to the plot that Egwene changes for the better, and I doubt RJ or BS want her to be "perfect", it does bring up the question of whether they're writing her as (arguably) unlikeable as they are on purpose or not?

 

I personally think that, if Egwene is being written, up until this point, as someone who is supposed to be seen as a bit of a bully to her friends and lover, and somewhat unreasonable, I think its very unlikely to have a character this important to the plot, and this much of a force for good, and not have ANYONE call her out on her behaviour. I realise to a certain extent, its a writing cliche, that they are perhaps are intending to purposefully subvert, but I doubt it :P

 

Which leaves the question- if Egwene isn't called out on some of her more negative actions, is it because the author/s sees her behaviour as just fine? I mean, up until now, we've had Egwene laugh off her bullying of Nynaeve, brush off Nynaeve's testing as not being able to get involved, despite knowing it was overly harsh, and Gawyn go gooey eyed over her despite her treatment of him. Again, perhaps I'm missing the aim here, but at times it does seem like we're not supposed to question Egwene's behaviour, just laugh at how she takes Nynaeve down, and think what a mean idiot Gawyn is for defying her- and I think for people, like me, who think this behaviour goes beyond "a little character flaw", its very frustrating that it could be presented as such.

 

I think the Compulsion idea is interesting, though, perhaps there is something in that...

[HighWiredSith]

The more I ponder the more I come to accept that Elaine, by far my least tolerable character, is, if nothing else, written realistically. After all, she's a spoiled princess used to getting her way, pampered but also prepared to one day take the Lion Throne. You can almost see the same characteristics in Gawan and Galad. At least she's consistent even if she is annoying.

 

Other characters get on my nerves - like Perrin and his ridiculous refusal to become the Lord and leader of the Two Rivers, his constant whining that he's only a blacksmith and didn't want this responsibility, oh pooh pooh pooh, suck it up and accept it like a man!

 

Anyway - Egwene just seems, above all else, to be a character totally out of character. She can almost simultaneously make decisions and take actions that ensure the survival of the white tower and the aes sedai with decisions that are just silly and vain. She can break a dozen rules in the same breath that she implores all of the Aes Sedai to embrace tradition, embrace tower law, and embrace her leadership. She's become an egomaniac with a shawl, demanding that long time friends submit to her authority and bend to her will despite the fact that just pages before she demanded they reject others in authority. In truth, she's as bad as Elaida only with this uncanny and unexplained sense of loyalty to Aes Sedai ideals that came out of nowhere. Even harder to swallow is this feeling that she's being written as if all of this, her ego, her unexplained wisdom, her inconsistency - as if all of it is somehow good and acceptable. Like Rand, she needs to be knocked down to size and put in her place but I dont' see that happening. I still half of TGS to go so maybe...

[Guest PiotrekS]

That's why some readers complain about Egwene a lot on this forum- it seems that she is supposed to be a great character that everybody should love and the last book will probably include more of her unconditional triumphs.

 

When somebody doesn't admire her, some parts of the books, which are nothing but odes to Egwene's awesomeness, cease to be as rewarding as they could be.

[Gathering Storman Norman]

I seriously hope BS doesn't change Egwene, she doesn't need changing, and sn't change now would be pandering to a bunch of people that just don't get her.

 

Just about everything people have posted as negative traits that she has I either disagree with completely our think they are way over stated.

 

I really don't care if you don't like her I just hope she isn't ruined in the last book after coming so far!

[capuga]

I seriously hope BS doesn't change Egwene, she doesn't need changing, and sn't change now would be pandering to a bunch of people that just don't get her.

Just about everything people have posted as negative traits that she has I either disagree with completely our think they are way over stated.

 

I really don't care if you don't like her I just hope she isn't ruined in the last book after coming so far!

 

Or we get her just fine and just have a different opinion of her character.

[Suttree]

In truth, she's as bad as Elaida only with this uncanny and unexplained sense of loyalty to Aes Sedai ideals that came out of nowhere.

 

See somehow this always happens. A perfectly reasonable post from the anti-Egwene crowd is clipping along at a nice pace and then we get a sentence like this. Is there any wonder so many people roll their eyes when posters can't seem to help themselves in trying to bash her character traits. Egwene has many faults but being "as bad as Elaida" is no where even close to the truth of the situation.

[Seeker Matt]

I'm not sure that that exactly devalues or discredits everything else in that post.

 

While I’m not sure I’d say Egwene was worse than Elaida in terms of a Amyrlin Seat I could probably make a defence of such a proposition so it isn't a totally unreasonable argument: Perhaps Egwene's successes will mean her advocacy for a disastrous course of action that much more likely whereas Elaida may have made herself impotent due to her utter incompetence? Perhaps Egwene is as bad as Elaida as she still appears devoted to many of the more moronic aspects of the White Tower and female Aes Sedai?

[David Selig]

This is a good point. I guess that, although it isn't important to the plot that Egwene changes for the better, and I doubt RJ or BS want her to be "perfect", it does bring up the question of whether they're writing her as (arguably) unlikeable as they are on purpose or not?

 

I personally think that, if Egwene is being written, up until this point, as someone who is supposed to be seen as a bit of a bully to her friends and lover, and somewhat unreasonable, I think its very unlikely to have a character this important to the plot, and this much of a force for good, and not have ANYONE call her out on her behaviour. I realise to a certain extent, its a writing cliche, that they are perhaps are intending to purposefully subvert, but I doubt it :P

 

Which leaves the question- if Egwene isn't called out on some of her more negative actions, is it because the author/s sees her behaviour as just fine? I mean, up until now, we've had Egwene laugh off her bullying of Nynaeve, brush off Nynaeve's testing as not being able to get involved, despite knowing it was overly harsh, and Gawyn go gooey eyed over her despite her treatment of him. Again, perhaps I'm missing the aim here, but at times it does seem like we're not supposed to question Egwene's behaviour, just laugh at how she takes Nynaeve down, and think what a mean idiot Gawyn is for defying her- and I think for people, like me, who think this behaviour goes beyond "a little character flaw", its very frustrating that it could be presented as such.

Yes, the lack of calling out on Egwene's negative actions is one of my main problems with the way she's written. If there were more scenes like he one in TDR, when Elayne finally had enough of Egwene's unreasonable arguing, whining and complaining about everything Nynaeve did, and slapped Egwene, she'd have been much less annoying character for me and more plausibly written. But for some reason ever since TFOH, Egwene's basically never called out on anything. It never made sense to me why Nynaeve just accepted the terrible way Egwene treated her in TFOH, for example.

[Sleeper]

In truth, she's as bad as Elaida only with this uncanny and unexplained sense of loyalty to Aes Sedai ideals that came out of nowhere.

 

See somehow this always happens. A perfectly reasonable post from the anti-Egwene crowd is clipping along at a nice pace and then we get a sentence like this. Is there any wonder so many people roll their eyes when posters can't seem to help themselves in trying to bash her character traits. Egwene has many faults but being "as bad as Elaida" is no where even close to the truth of the situation.

And then there's the people on the other side who, instead of posting a valid argument, say "Anti-Egwene people are sexist pigs who just want her to bow to their favorite character Rand!!1!"

 

There're posts like that on both sides, amigo.

 

Just look at the 3 ta'veren's post: people who dislike Egwene "just don't get her". Does that seem like a reasonable counter-argument? That's something I'd roll my eyes at

 

Furthermore, in response to ta'veren's comment: I honestly think Egwene is in for a beat-down, not to pander to people who don't like her, but because her character arc has been so blatantly and obviously lacking of any form of humbling. Quite a few of the other characters have had to at one point step back and re-evaluate themselves or their behavior towards others, usually with the help of input from an external source. For example, Rand had Cadsuane. Egwene hasn't had this, her behavior is so blatantly hypocritical and absurd that it seems necessary for her to experience a revelation. Furthermore, the Aes Sedai, of whom she is now the head, are almost certainly going to get a schooling in proper behavior. I just can't see Egwene not getting knocked down a couple pegs when that happens.

 

So, in summation, maybe it's less pandering to us ignorant Egwene-haters and more the natural evolution of her story arc.

[Suttree]

In truth, she's as bad as Elaida only with this uncanny and unexplained sense of loyalty to Aes Sedai ideals that came out of nowhere.

 

See somehow this always happens. A perfectly reasonable post from the anti-Egwene crowd is clipping along at a nice pace and then we get a sentence like this. Is there any wonder so many people roll their eyes when posters can't seem to help themselves in trying to bash her character traits. Egwene has many faults but being "as bad as Elaida" is no where even close to the truth of the situation.

And then there's the people on the other side who, instead of posting a valid argument, say "Anti-Egwene people are sexist pigs who just want her to bow to their favorite character Rand!!1!"

 

It's actually been quite some time since I have seen one of these. I honestly don't think they are quite so pervasive as the AE camp claim, it's almost become like a knee jerk defense when anything ridiculous is pointed out by the other side.

 

Just look at the 3 ta'veren's post: people who dislike Egwene "just don't get her". Does that seem like a reasonable counter-argument? That's something I'd roll my eyes at

 

Yeah claiming Egwene as just misunderstood comes across as quite ludicrous. I'm actually somewhat in the middle on the whole debate, just have a hard time when the froth level starts ratcheting up trying to throw her under the bus. It's not like there isn't enough ammo from the actual story...

[Sleeper]

In truth, she's as bad as Elaida only with this uncanny and unexplained sense of loyalty to Aes Sedai ideals that came out of nowhere.

 

See somehow this always happens. A perfectly reasonable post from the anti-Egwene crowd is clipping along at a nice pace and then we get a sentence like this. Is there any wonder so many people roll their eyes when posters can't seem to help themselves in trying to bash her character traits. Egwene has many faults but being "as bad as Elaida" is no where even close to the truth of the situation.

And then there's the people on the other side who, instead of posting a valid argument, say "Anti-Egwene people are sexist pigs who just want her to bow to their favorite character Rand!!1!"

 

It's actually been quite some time since I have seen one of these. I honestly don't think they are quite so pervasive as the AE camp claim, it's almost become like a knee jerk defense when anything ridiculous is pointed out by the other side.

 

Just look at the 3 ta'veren's post: people who dislike Egwene "just don't get her". Does that seem like a reasonable counter-argument? That's something I'd roll my eyes at

 

Yeah claiming Egwene as just misunderstood comes across as quite ludicrous. I'm actually somewhat in the middle on the whole debate, just have a hard time when the froth level starts ratcheting up trying to throw her under the bus. It's not like there isn't enough ammo from the actual story...

Haha, well one thing Egwene definitely does do is make us WoT fans frothy

 

And yes, I understand completely where you're coming from, people can go a little A and B the C of D in arguing their point.

[JKN-SW]

Im just doing my first re-read of the books, and I find I am a lot less impressed with Egwene than I was the first time through. She does have her moments, of course, but overall i find her both arrogant and ignorant, not a great combination. Of course, that can be said of a lot of the characters, especially the Aes Sedai, they are all like that. Many of the others are also pretty full of themselves and think they are the only ones that know what is right and that everbody else should just do as they think and everything will be just fine. Pretty much as in RL, really.

 

But Egwene kinda excels in this imho.

[Guest PiotrekS]

Well, on re-read I had to re-evaluate my opinion that RJ wrote Egwene as "perfect". There are two instances, where it is very clearly emphasised that she has a certain flaw: when she's angry at herself, she leashes out at other people. It happened at least once with Rand (in tSR if I recall, when she inadvertently let him know it was Moiraine who had struck him with the Power). It was also visible in her treatment of Nynaeve in TAR, although that contained also an element of cold manipulation.

 

As far as we can know, she still has that flaw. Her "character development" didn't actually include any kind of corrective mechanism, her positive traits that had been present from the beginning- will-power, cleverness, strength in the One Power - simply got magnified.

 

There was absolutely no re-evaluation, no serious correction of previous actions or thoughts on Egwene's part, and that's why I think that there was no real character development in her case.

 

There was Egwene in a few first books - a character I wasn't a fan of, but nothing very bad - and suddenly, after becoming Amyrlin, this all-powerful Egwene the Mother of all descended from the heavens.

 

As to comparing her to Elaida, I think the argument is supposed to show that some readers see in Egwene the traits which would make her a perfect villain, if she wasn't so good and pure by author's fiat alone. It simply highlists the lack of satisfaction one may experience when Egwene fights Mesaana and she is shown to be as arrogant as one of the Forsaken (she was comparing Mesaana - a human being, regardless of her crimes - to an insect. And also believing in this comparison enough to win a fight in TAR). I could not avoid this thought - most of the Forsaken treat other people as insects and have as much respect for their lifes.

 

One final question for Egwene's fans - why exactly did she lie to the Wise Ones and pretend to be an Aes Sedai? What was her goal?

[HighWiredSith]

You can roll eyes all you care to, but the same blind ambition that turned Elaida into a megalomaniac is present in Egwene. Already, just days after becoming the true Amyrlyn of the entire tower she is demanding fealty and obedience under the ruse of protecting tower tradition while at the same time breaking numerous long standing traditions for no other reason than her own whims and fancies (like allowing wilders to join the Aes Sedai or, herself, skipping the Aes Sedai testing based on little more than a loophole or technicality. It's all ego, which is fine, but coupled with this overwhelming wisdom and devotion just doesn't add up.

 

And it's funny, the more I grow to dislike Egwene the more I admire and appreciate Nynaeve. Nynaeve is a product of her life as a wisdom, fiercely independent, passionate, loyal and devoted to her friends and fellow Two Rivers folk. Her character, like Elaine, just makes sense.

[Smittyphi]

And it's funny, the more I grow to dislike Egwene the more I admire and appreciate Nynaeve. Nynaeve is a product of her life as a wisdom, fiercely independent, passionate, loyal and devoted to her friends and fellow Two Rivers folk. Her character, like Elaine, just makes sense.

 

This is me to a point. The whole farm-girl-growing-up-and-becoming-uber-powerful thing is great and I still root for her, Nynaeve has grown on me. Mat did a complete on 180 in The Dragon Reborn, especially after whipping the G boys in Tar Valon. Nynaeve has been a slow and steady build up to liking her.

 

I do hope Egwene gets knocked down a peg or two to humble her but I still like her and what she has done, for the most part.

[Hopefire]

With my purchase of a new Android phone and an iPad 2, I've decided to start rereading the series again, this time as e-book. While not completely pertinent to where Egwene is now as a character, there's a few lines early in the series that I find funny, and I think that she still carries something of the same attitude.

 

 

"Nynaeve was right. None of you is ready to be off leading strings. People do ride horses, you know. That doesn't make them monsters out of a gleeman's tale. And you've been spreading the tales. Sometimes you have no sense, Rand al'Thor. The winter has been frightening enough without you going about scaring the children."

-Egwene, when Rand tells her about the Fade he saw on the road, and who to that point he had only discussed with his father, Mat, Perrin and Egwene herself.

 

"Master Fain has come often to Emond's Field, Master Gleeman. He is always full of laughter, and he brings much more good news than bad."

-Egwene, when Thom tells her that Fain isn't a particularly nice person.

 

"The Trollocs! Rand, if you've decided to see some of the world, well and good, but please spare me any of your nonsensical tales."

-Egwene, when Rand tells her that the Trollocs came to Emond's Field looking for Mat, Perrin and himself

 

The issues have changed. The attitude remains the same. It's a quality that makes her a great character to read, because her preconceptions are almost always well grounded. I think that I've decided that Egwene's role is, as much as anything, to represent and be the voice of the status quo. Men bonding women, men wandering around using the One Power in numbers comparable to those of the White Tower and without any sort of organizational history, Rand hopping around the world willy-nilly to redraw borders, and Rand threatening to break the Seals? Darn right the Tower would be concerned by all that. Egwene acts as a voice of reason. She acts as a spokesperson for the conventional wisdom established over the past 3,000 years.

 

Her major flaw as a leader is how long it takes her to accept good information, advice and insight that differs from her current perception. It's a problem for her at the very start of the series (see the above quotes) and it continues to be in TOM. The biggest example is the assassin arc involving Gawyn, but smaller examples concerning her meeting with Rand, her irritation at Nynaeve drawing a line between the Black Tower bonding Aes Sedai and Rand being put in a box, etc.

[Guest PiotrekS]

You can roll eyes all you care to, but the same blind ambition that turned Elaida into a megalomaniac is present in Egwene. Already, just days after becoming the true Amyrlyn of the entire tower she is demanding fealty and obedience under the ruse of protecting tower tradition while at the same time breaking numerous long standing traditions for no other reason than her own whims and fancies (like allowing wilders to join the Aes Sedai or, herself, skipping the Aes Sedai testing based on little more than a loophole or technicality. It's all ego, which is fine, but coupled with this overwhelming wisdom and devotion just doesn't add up.

 

And it's funny, the more I grow to dislike Egwene the more I admire and appreciate Nynaeve. Nynaeve is a product of her life as a wisdom, fiercely independent, passionate, loyal and devoted to her friends and fellow Two Rivers folk. Her character, like Elaine, just makes sense.

 

I agree with every single word. I admire Nynaeve and like reading about Elayne. I even like and respect Cadsuane and have no real problem with Faile.

 

Egwene is the only female character that is written so inconsistently or is still waiting for some change to come.

[Mrs. Cindy Gill]

i figured she was at least kinda based on guinivere, fated to betray arthur. so i've always expected her arc to be headed toward that betrayal.

[randsc]

i figured she was at least kinda based on guinivere, fated to betray arthur. so i've always expected her arc to be headed toward that betrayal.

 

There are so many different Guinivere stories, though, that it is hard to know which arc Egwene's character might follow.

 

In one version, after Lancelot and Guinivere are found out and Guinivere sentenced to burn for adultry, Lancelot rescues her, killing in the process Gawain's two brothers (one named Gareth). In another, Guinivere betrays Arthur not just sexually, but politically, by taking up with Mordred.

 

So if Egwene betrays Rand by aligning with Moridin, is held captive, and in the process of freeing her Galad and Gareth are killed, and Gawyn driven mad.....

 

Well, I don't know where that leaves us. But I am pretty sure it would be awesome.