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character growth? sigh. have you missed how she was trasnformed from a woman who was scorned by her own hall as she was seeing of mat and co to find the bowl of winds to actually smacking down the aes sedai in TOM when they tried to go behind her back?

 

i think you need to read books 6-12 again. this time read it slowly. I know it's hard. coz you got 7-10 which are complete shit books and absolute waste of time.

 

 

and by the way, The lord dragon has no plan after breaking the seals. He has been reduced to asking the help of a farm girl lover. Still i like min so i have no problems with that.

 

Character growth means some internal change, a development in the character's ways of thinking, moral beliefs, abilities, sometimes reexamining the ideas held before, sometimes periods of crisis when old beliefs and values are compromised and the new ones aren't available yet... Acceptance of loss, of prices that have to be paid, of your own imperfectness and necessities of reality.

 

In case of Egwene, there was only this: her abilities were getting stronger, stronger, stronger. Her power of will was getting stronger, stronger, stronger...

 

As for some more real and sophisticated character development, there was none. What Elan described were the effects that a wondeful character growth would have. The only problem is that this growth is missing and we are shown only its effects. That's why I think that Egwene arc is very badly written. RJ wanted Egwene to become a certain kind of person, but he had no real idea how to get her there IMO (and no wonder, since it was probably impossible for a teenager to become a Personified Institution in a year or so).

 

In terms of character growth, Egwene's and Rand's arcs are examples of very bad and very good writing from the same author. If more of WOT were written similarly to Egwene's arc, I'm sure I wouldn't be a fan of the series.

 

To provide a positive example, Nynaeve's character growth is done very well. She is still herself, but some of her traits are developed, some are consciously reduced, all is plausible and makes sense.

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character growth? sigh. have you missed how she was trasnformed from a woman who was scorned by her own hall as she was seeing of mat and co to find the bowl of winds to actually smacking down the aes sedai in TOM when they tried to go behind her back?

 

i think you need to read books 6-12 again. this time read it slowly. I know it's hard. coz you got 7-10 which are complete shit books and absolute waste of time.

 

and by the way, The lord dragon has no plan after breaking the seals. He has been reduced to asking the help of a farm girl lover. Still i like min so i have no problems with that.

 

Each of the Emond's Fields characters has grown.

 

Mat is now the greatest general of his time, perhaps the greatest of all time.

 

Perrin might be the ideal king, and has essentially forged a nation out of nothing through hard work and determination to do the right thing.

 

Nynaeve is quite likely the greatest healer of all time, and of living characters only Rand, Moiraine and Cadsuane have equal or greater claim to the title of Aes Sedai.

 

Rand has re-become the greatest person who lived during the Age of Legends. He's a walking weapon of mass destruction. His mere presence pushes back the touch of the Dark One from the Pattern.

 

Egwene has won the respect of the third largest group of channelers in the world (assuming that there are still more Aes Sedai than Asha'man), and is respected by women in one of the larger groups (the Aiel). Egwene has excellent control of the bureaucracy of her institution, and has recently won and epic victory over another career bureaucrat (in all fairness, the battleground with the other bureaucrat was TAR, and the other bureaucrat was probably suffering from PTSD after being sexually assaulted by a fade a few weeks before, and might not have had her A-game). Egwene has also proven that when she has a sa'angreal she is stronger than women who don't have a sa'angreal, and that she isn't completely useless in a fight where she has far, far more firepower than anyone else on the battlefield.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Note: I'm basing the idea that the Aiel have more channelers on the number of channeling Wise Ones that the Shaido had. If I recall, it was given as being 500-600 or so. Therefore, there should be about 6,000 to 7,200 Wise Ones that can channel, which dwarfs the size of the White Tower even with the recruitment surge. That wouldn't be too surprising, as the Aiel recruit every woman who channel and they don't breed the ability out the population - Wise Ones continue to marry and have children, which would raise the population per-capita of channelers.

 

That is a list of accomplishments, not evidence of character growth. They're not the same thing.

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character growth? sigh. have you missed how she was trasnformed from a woman who was scorned by her own hall as she was seeing of mat and co to find the bowl of winds to actually smacking down the aes sedai in TOM when they tried to go behind her back?

 

i think you need to read books 6-12 again. this time read it slowly. I know it's hard. coz you got 7-10 which are complete shit books and absolute waste of time.

 

 

and by the way, The lord dragon has no plan after breaking the seals. He has been reduced to asking the help of a farm girl lover. Still i like min so i have no problems with that.

 

Character growth means some internal change, a development in the character's ways of thinking, moral beliefs, abilities, sometimes reexamining the ideas held before, sometimes periods of crisis when old beliefs and values are compromised and the new ones aren't available yet... Acceptance of loss, of prices that have to be paid, of your own imperfectness and necessities of reality.

 

In case of Egwene, there was only this: her abilities were getting stronger, stronger, stronger. Her power of will was getting stronger, stronger, stronger...

 

As for some more real and sophisticated character development, there was none. What Elan described were the effects that a wondeful character growth would have. The only problem is that this growth is missing and we are shown only its effects. That's why I think that Egwene arc is very badly written. RJ wanted Egwene to become a certain kind of person, but he had no real idea how to get her there IMO (and no wonder, since it was probably impossible for a teenager to become a Personified Institution in a year or so).

 

In terms of character growth, Egwene's and Rand's arcs are examples of very bad and very good writing from the same author. If more of WOT were written similarly to Egwene's arc, I'm sure I wouldn't be a fan of the series.

 

To provide a positive example, Nynaeve's character growth is done very well. She is still herself, but some of her traits are developed, some are consciously reduced, all is plausible and makes sense.

 

 

^^^^ This. A character in a novel can achieve great things without ever growing or changing. That is what has happened with Egwene, in stark contrast to Nynaeve and Rand (both of them grew and changed a bit to precipitously for my taste; it didn't feel realistic) or Mat and Perrin (whose growth I think was the most organic and believable).

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Kind of funny, the derisive way you describe Egwene's accomplishments when in reality Mat is the only character who did absolutely zero work to earn the skills you list as growth.

 

Ah well, replace what I said about being a general with having become wise in the ways of boots.

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Kind of funny, the derisive way you describe Egwene's accomplishments when in reality Mat is the only character who did absolutely zero work to earn the skills you list as growth.

 

Ah well, replace what I said about being a general with having become wise in the ways of boots.

 

Mat didn't earn his skills. But his character experienced growth. His attitudes and perceptions changed.

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Kind of funny, the derisive way you describe Egwene's accomplishments when in reality Mat is the only character who did absolutely zero work to earn the skills you list as growth.

 

Ah well, replace what I said about being a general with having become wise in the ways of boots.

 

Mat didn't earn his skills. But his character experienced growth. His attitudes and perceptions changed.

+1.

And that for me atleast is character growth. Attitude, perception, internal shift, not a display of external achievements or accomplishments.

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Kind of funny, the derisive way you describe Egwene's accomplishments when in reality Mat is the only character who did absolutely zero work to earn the skills you list as growth.

 

Ah well, replace what I said about being a general with having become wise in the ways of boots.

 

Mat didn't earn his skills. But his character experienced growth. His attitudes and perceptions changed.

 

I suppose it depends on if you think he earned them by being strung up by his neck from a tree. Whether you think he earned them or not, he certainly paid for them. Near-death situations can trigger all sorts of changes in someone's personality and attitude.

Edited by Dakota
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Kind of funny, the derisive way you describe Egwene's accomplishments when in reality Mat is the only character who did absolutely zero work to earn the skills you list as growth.

 

Ah well, replace what I said about being a general with having become wise in the ways of boots.

 

Mat didn't earn his skills. But his character experienced growth. His attitudes and perceptions changed.

 

I suppose it depends on if you think he earned them by being strung up by his neck from a tree. Whether you think he earned them or not, he certainly paid for them. Near-death situations can trigger all sorts of changes in someone's personality and attitude.

 

I was speaking only of his skills as a general that Hopefire listed, and yes I agree his character has grown quite a bit throughout the series.

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A question... if we have discussed this before ignore this.

I read another thread that said something...blabla they talk about it in the Egwene bashing thread. It´s so weird that Egwene invokes so many strong feelings. Although you can dislike her-that doesn´t mean bashing. Is it that she has a badly written arc, do we expect more of her, is it because she is a powerful woman?

 

I mean.. I haven´t seen any I hate Rand threads - he is so evil, using people, only thinking about TG, not trusting anyone, selfish, crazy b*stard? (preToM)?

 

Someone said that we see Egwene as real and we are not discussing how we would react to situations in her shoes, but discussing her as though she is alive... but tbh I do this with all chars, not just Egwene.

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Besides Rand never said he meant to break the seals without a plan, only that he didn't have the answers yet, this taking place a month before the meeting at Merilor, so she has no reason to doubt that Rand will have a plan when he breaks the seals.

 

He doesn't have the answers, who knows if or when he would be able to figure it out? There is all the reason in the world for Egwene to doubt and want to discuss a course of action, especially with something like this that could destroy the world.

 

In addition Egwene does bring up the topic of Rand not having a plan..

 

ToM "The Amyrlin's Anger"

 

"We must talk about this she said," she said. "Plan"

 

I didn't say she should blindly follow Rand. However she hardly needs to radically oppose him either. That's what I'm trying to say, that she knows basically nothing about what Rand intends, and yet she has already made up her mind. Would it not be best to, like Darlin for example, wait until she talks to Rand and learns the full details at the fields of Merilor before she makes her decision? She doesn't plan to discuss the posibility of breaking the seals, she has already decided to oppose. I simply think she could be more patient, more cautious. So I actually agree with you completely that they should discuss this course of action, however that does not seem to be what Egwene intends to do.

 

About whether she opposes the breaking of the seals without a plan or just simply the breaking of the seals: in the quote you gave, Egwene isn't responding to Rand's lack of a plan, she's respondind to Rand saying that the seals must be broken for him to be able to seal the DO properly. When Rand said that he didn't have the answers yet, she didn't say anything. However once he said that he meant to break the seals, she basically went "that's completely crazy!". Which I'm not saying is wrong as an initial reaction, however it is clear that it is the breaking of the seals she opposes here.

Furthermore, like I said, when she announced to various people that she was trying to convince to oppose Rand (such as Elayne, Nyneave, the Wise Ones, and Darlin(though we actually didn't see her first letter , we did see Darlin's return letter)) what Rand intended to do, she made no mention of his lack of a plan, and not once do we see that in her thoughts either. But it would seem obvious to me that if she is trying to convince these people to oppose Rand she would name her reason for opposing him: that he has no plan. Yet she never does and instead simply says that he means to break the seals, and that that is insane and he must be stopped.

Also I'd point out that she tells Elayne and Nyneave that he should be able seal away the DO without breaking the seals. If she indeed opposes Rand because of his lack of a plan, it would seem contradictory that she here has no doubt that he can seal the DO, and instead focuses on her belief that the seals must stay intact.

When Elayne tells Faile and Perrin about the FoM she simply says that Rand means to break the seals whe she describes as a crazy thing to do. Again, no mention of a lack of a plan. When Nyneave asks Rand about why he intends to break the seals, it is the releasing of the DO that she says worries her. Once more there is no mention of whether Rand has a plan or not.

 

There was one more thing but I can't remember at the moment. In any case I think that overall there is a lot of thinking that breaking the seals is insane, and just about no mention of his lack of a plan or of it being that he breaks the seals as long as he has a plan. And honestly I think that the breaking of the seals is a matter of great controversy quite on its own.

 

Sorry if I seems like I was rambling, I just wanted to be thorough.

Edited by Master Ablar
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I mean.. I haven´t seen any I hate Rand threads - he is so evil, using people, only thinking about TG, not trusting anyone, selfish, crazy b*stard? (preToM)?

 

 

for the record, if anyone cares, i don't like rand's chartacter very much. i don't trust him. i trusted him more when he was so clearly paranoid and psychotic than i do now. but i can't imagine typing more words about it. i'll just think, "what a jerk," to myself when i read about him and be satisfied.

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A question... if we have discussed this before ignore this.

I read another thread that said something...blabla they talk about it in the Egwene bashing thread. It´s so weird that Egwene invokes so many strong feelings. Although you can dislike her-that doesn´t mean bashing. Is it that she has a badly written arc, do we expect more of her, is it because she is a powerful woman?

 

I mean.. I haven´t seen any I hate Rand threads - he is so evil, using people, only thinking about TG, not trusting anyone, selfish, crazy b*stard? (preToM)?

 

Someone said that we see Egwene as real and we are not discussing how we would react to situations in her shoes, but discussing her as though she is alive... but tbh I do this with all chars, not just Egwene.

 

Well about Rand, I would say that it's kind of hard to get that mad or hatefull towards him, simply because he has to deal with so much and that honestly his mistakes are almost all understandable. What I mean is that you can't really blame the guy for ending up being so hard. He's just gotten hit with so much, that he just could not take it anymore so he closed himself to everything. This is basically what he says to Nyneave after she cleanses that poor boy of compulsion, that the pain would be too much for him.

 

By the way I've got to say that that chapter, and most particullarly the part after Nyneave's healing, is a very near second to VoG in my opinion. It's easely the chapter I read over the most(with VoG). To me it just shows Rand at his lowest point and actually has Rand saying that he knows he's at his lowest but that he accepts it because he can't bear the pain of actually caring. It was probably this chapter that illustrated best to me just how terrible Rand has it. And if you want proof of how great it was, well, even Nyneave didn't know what to say to him!

Edited by Master Ablar
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i don't trust him. i trusted him more when he was so clearly paranoid and psychotic than i do now. but i can't imagine typing more words about it. i'll just think, "what a jerk," to myself when i read about him and be satisfied.

 

That just doesn't work for me. This is how I see your statement: "See that paranoid psychopath over there, you can trust what he says or does" and "See that guy who takes medicine so he is chemically balanced and doesn't randomly speak to himself? He'll kill you because he's sane"

 

Post VoG, it seems like Rand found the right dosage that makes him think straight.

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Egwene to my mind was written to be the WOT Uber politician when i read her parts i read them like i listen to politicians on CNN. she does good things she does bad and or questionable things but most things she does is for political positioning even when she didnt know she was politicking I even viewed her shifting affections from Galad to Gawyn as political even if not a conscious political move Galad the half brother of the future queen of andor whom elayne didnt even acknowledge as her brother to the future first prince of the sword to the future queen of andor giving herself a nice added political string in her arsenal, the politics in her character decisions are fascinating to me.

 

Watching people debate her vices and virtues is like watching republicans and democrats trying to eat each other alive so i would say the author did a good job in making her what she is.Egwene is also the character i personally feel like i know the least about, what i mean by that statement is she never solidifys into a solid persona her morals change her stances on issues change the only thing about her that has changed is her fervor into solidifying the WT as the Epitome of randland authority which fits into the character of uber politician securing her job.

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i don't trust him. i trusted him more when he was so clearly paranoid and psychotic than i do now. but i can't imagine typing more words about it. i'll just think, "what a jerk," to myself when i read about him and be satisfied.

 

That just doesn't work for me. This is how I see your statement: "See that paranoid psychopath over there, you can trust what he says or does" and "See that guy who takes medicine so he is chemically balanced and doesn't randomly speak to himself? He'll kill you because he's sane"

 

Post VoG, it seems like Rand found the right dosage that makes him think straight.

 

when he was obviously impaired, it was easier for me to trust that his mental status was as it appeared.

 

now, i don't know what his mental status is. all i know is what it seems to be.

 

dagnabbit. i typed more words. about my distrust of a fictional character.

 

you win again, internet *flicker*

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Well about Rand, I would say that it's kind of hard to get that mad or hatefull towards him, simply because he has to deal with so much and that honestly his mistakes are almost all understandable. What I mean is that you can't really blame the guy for ending up being so hard. He's just gotten hit with so much, that he just could not take it anymore so he closed himself to everything. This is basically what he says to Nyneave after she cleanses that poor boy of compulsion, that the pain would be too much for him.

 

By the way I've got to say that that chapter, and most particullarly the part after Nyneave's healing, is a very near second to VoG in my opinion. It's easely the chapter I read over the most(with VoG). To me it just show Rand at his lowest point and actually has Rand saying that he knows he's at his lowest but that he accepts it because he can't bear the pain of actually caring. It was probably this chapter that illustrated best to me just how terrible Rand has it. And if you want proof of how great it was, well, even Nyneave didn't know what to say to him!

 

I agree with everything Master Ablar says :wub:

 

I think one of the reasons it´s hard for me to hate Rand is that you get to see his internal struggle, you get to understand how and why he feels he has to change. I hope Rand Sedai is not another sign or a different side of his madness.. that would really... suck.

 

As for BKVMC: Seeing what Egwene does from a political standpoint is really interesting, and it sure makes alot more sense, even though her growth to become that politician still isn´t believable in my mind.

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Guest PiotrekS

Egwene to my mind was written to be the WOT Uber politician when i read her parts i read them like i listen to politicians on CNN. she does good things she does bad and or questionable things but m"ost things she does is for political positioning even when she didnt know she was politicking I even viewed her shifting affections from Galad to Gawyn as political even if not a conscious political move Galad the half brother of the future queen of andor whom elayne didnt even acknowledge as her brother to the future first prince of the sword to the future queen of andor giving herself a nice added political string in her arsenal, the politics in her character decisions are fascinating to me.

 

Watching people debate her vices and virtues is like watching republicans and democrats trying to eat each other alive so i would say the author did a good job in making her what she is.Egwene is also the character i personally feel like i know the least about, what i mean by that statement is she never solidifys into a solid persona her morals change her stances on issues change the only thing about her that has changed is her fervor into solidifying the WT as the Epitome of randland authority which fits into the character of uber politician securing her job.

 

I agree about Egwene being a politician. I voiced a similar observation when debating her role in the Last Battle (I argued that politicians should leave planning and fighting war to soldiers - you can guess who I had in mind :smile: )

 

I also agree with Logain's Pet. I share your concern (and also some of Cindy's, although I wouldn't say that I don't trust Rand Sedai) about what's inside Rand's head. Brandon said there was an important reason not to have Rand's POVs in ToM. I have been thinking for some time what are they (Team Jordan :tongue: ) hiding?

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I would really hatehatehate =/ if Rand was still mad and crazy and that was the reason there were not any PoV. I´d rather hope it´s more along the lines of... Rand´s awesomeness is so huge we wouldn´t be able to cope with having PoVs from him too, so let´s save that for the next book, and that Brandon doesn´t wanna spoil any nice stuff that Rand is thinking on for the last book

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I haven't read everything in this thread, though I've skimmed a lot of it. Unlike most people, I actually liked Egwene in the first couple books. She was a tad overbearing, but it was just her character. In a way, she was sort of like Nynaeve (who I like). Nynaedve always thinks she's right but is comedic and has her friend's best interests at heart. Egwene, on the other hand, has been steadily getting more and more obnoxious to me as the books go on. She is constantly hypocritical (IE making those Aes Sedai swear an oath of loyalty to her than criticizing Elaida for thinking about doing the same) and refuses to listen to others. Although other characters like Rand, Elayne, and Nynaeve similarly think they're right all the time, they at least usually listen to reason if someone else gives it to them. Egwene on the other hand blindly ignores any contrary opinions and thinks she couldn't possibly be wrong.

Edited by Waffleboy
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I like Egwene, though she, like all the characters, does have her flaws. Though I think she gets the most undeserved crap on DM, while other characters (Mat and Rand) never get called on being more tyrannical and arrogant (Rand) or more stupid and childish (Mat).

No, I don't contest that Rand and Mat have made mistakes, but Rand's mistakes are at least (IMO) justifiable and I understand why he did things in the situation that he was in. With Egwene, I don't feel that as much. I understand some of the manipulations and deceit that she had to do, but I also think her personality has taken a downhill turn.

 

I hate Aes Sedai, I find them to be detestable, and Egwene has become so Aes Sedai that I can't help but dislike her too.

 

 

I agree with the response above this. Rand and Mat have both shown character evolvement, but it all ties in with what's come before. Egwene has no reason to feel she is suddenly entitled to her arrogance and misled wisdom on what is right and wrong. If nothing else, the storylines of the Wise Women and the Sea Folk Windfinders and the Aiel Wise Ones show that, with everything else, groups have to evolve and change with the times. She is doing nothing but digging her feet in and thinking she has the right to decide the entire world's fate in the single-minded way of the Aes Sedai. She is just the modern version of what's wrong with the entire Aes Sedai way of thinking.

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I agree with kristineaskada. Egwene is practically the only light side character to not have some sort of internal struggle. Rand struggles with the deaths of women, his madness, and his (and LTT's) past. Heck, his internal arc takes up most of the series. Perrin struggles with the wolves and his duty, Mat, despite his smug exterior, struggles with his duty as well. Nynaeve struggles with her desire to heal and her hatred of AS. Elayne struggles with the death of her mother and her love of Rand. Moiraine struggled with her desire to manipulate Rand and eventual realization that he's a person, not an object. Suian struggled with her sudden power gap, as did Leane. Birgitte struggles with a loss of identity, and Thom with his passed experience with AS. There are dozens more examples, but I'm sure you guys get my point.

 

Egwene, on the other hand, doesn't seem to struggle with much of anything. She always believes she is right and has no internal qualms about any of her actions - she rationalizes and justifies all her decisions. She almost seems to fit the description of the Forsaken, that they are entirely selfish (in Egwene's case, at least self-motivated, maybe selfish is too far). I'm NOT implying Egwene is a Foresaken of course :ohmy:, but want to point out the apparent parallel between her and their internal characteristics and development.

Edited by Waffleboy
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I haven't read everything in this thread, though I've skimmed a lot of it. Unlike most people, I actually liked Egwene in the first couple books. She was a tad overbearing, but it was just her character. In a way, she was sort of like Nynaeve (who I like). Nynaedve always thinks she's right but is comedic and has her friend's best interests at heart. Egwene, on the other hand, has been steadily getting more and more obnoxious to me as the books go on. She is constantly hypocritical (IE making those Aes Sedai swear an oath of loyalty to her than criticizing Elaida for thinking about doing the same) and refuses to listen to others. Although other characters like Rand, Elayne, and Nynaeve similarly think they're right all the time, they at least usually listen to reason if someone else gives it to them. Egwene on the other hand blindly ignores any contrary opinions and thinks she couldn't possibly be wrong.

 

While I agree that both Nynaeve and Egwene thinks that they know what is best for everyone, Nynaeve is often critizising herself in her POVs. Fool woman, coward etc etc. I can't recall Egwene having those thoughts about herself, and that is why Nynaeve, to me, is much more likable.

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