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Toral alCaar
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uhhh no. Aes Sedai cannot lie. she states plainly "it is part of the Pattern."

the TR would know what has happened soon enough. they could have tied her up in the stalls or wrapped her in a weave that would unravel ina set amount of time. Moraine had many options to deal with her. she has the Dragon Reborn w/ her. what is a young woman that can channel compared to that. why risk themselves bringing her along when Mor an Lan came to the TR to get the Dragon and not channellers? don't make any sense except for that one statement she makes that it is the pattern. it is what first brought Egwene into noticing them preparing thier leaving. the most sensible thing to have done would be to not take her and risk her life knowing they will be hunted by DF and trollocs. sensible thing would be to tie her up in the stall and leave her to be found.

 

“An Aes Sedai never lies, but the truth she speaks, may not be the truth you think you hear.” Tam al'Thor

 

Egwene is one of the strongest female channelers seen in over a thousand years. Moraine would not pass up that opportunity, in addition she even says "If she is left behind, Rand, she could rouse the village before we have gone a mile".

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Because there have always been such great calls made!?!?(See Mat in the Seven Striped Lass)BS has had difficulty at times hitting the mark, that can't be disputed.

 

Excuse me? I believe it can be disputed. In fact, the one example you gave me(vague as it was) did not seem to be the least bit out of character. In any case, it's pretty laughable that you or any fan could claim to have a better handle on the characters then the editor of the series and widow of the author.

 

Until you(or someone) manages to dig up some statement with Harriet(or even Brandon) acknowledging that some characters were(or even might have been) out-of-character, you do not have any ability to effectively argue your point.

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Because there have always been such great calls made!?!?(See Mat in the Seven Striped Lass)BS has had difficulty at times hitting the mark, that can't be disputed.

 

Excuse me? I believe it can be disputed. In fact, the one example you gave me(vague as it was) did not seem to be the least bit out of character. In any case, it's pretty laughable that you or any fan could claim to have a better handle on the characters then the editor of the series and widow of the author.

 

Until you(or someone) manages to dig up some statement with Harriet(or even Brandon) acknowledging that some characters were(or even might have been) out-of-character, you do not have any ability to effectively argue your point.

True, until you realize that Harriet is not infallible and has made mistakes before, specifically failing to reign in Jordan's writing.The fact that we have to get to the last books for the plots to start resolving is very telling.

 

So no, Harriet's word != word of god.Did Mat seem out of character a little ? In my opinion, he did.Am I unable to discuss that because the book has Harriet's apparent approval ?

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uhhh no. Aes Sedai cannot lie. she states plainly "it is part of the Pattern."

the TR would know what has happened soon enough. they could have tied her up in the stalls or wrapped her in a weave that would unravel ina set amount of time. Moraine had many options to deal with her. she has the Dragon Reborn w/ her. what is a young woman that can channel compared to that. why risk themselves bringing her along when Mor an Lan came to the TR to get the Dragon and not channellers? don't make any sense except for that one statement she makes that it is the pattern. it is what first brought Egwene into noticing them preparing thier leaving. the most sensible thing to have done would be to not take her and risk her life knowing they will be hunted by DF and trollocs. sensible thing would be to tie her up in the stall and leave her to be found.

 

“An Aes Sedai never lies, but the truth she speaks, may not be the truth you think you hear.” Tam al'Thor

 

Egwene is one of the strongest female channelers seen in over a thousand years. Moraine would not pass up that opportunity, in addition she even says "If she is left behind, Rand, she could rouse the village before we have gone a mile".

yet Ny is stronger an she leaves her behind. Perrin has left a note and Rand told his father. Ny is on thier trail quickly and even catches up. it would have been far more reasonable to leave Egwene behind than dragging her along. the pattern wanted it and got it. i stand by what has been proven in the books concerning Taveren and the Pattern. as shown w/ Mat and the band, Taveren does not need to be present to effect the Pattern giving them what they needs. i will stick with what the books have shown. that said i agree that we disagree.

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Everything in Randland is part of the Pattern, as already noted, so Moiraine's statement doesn't prove a thing either way. If you wan to believe it's a ta'veren effect, good for you, but the evidence is pretty weak IMO.

 

Nynaeve is stronger, but she didn't want to come at the time, which is a big difference.

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yet Ny is stronger an she leaves her behind. Perrin has left a note and Rand told his father. Ny is on thier trail quickly and even catches up. it would have been far more reasonable to leave Egwene behind than dragging her along.

Moiraine knew Egwene had the spark and would probably die without training, that's why she brought her along. Nynaeve had already been channeling for years and was at no risk of dying.

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Rand even confronts Egwene and asks her not to come because of the dangers. she ignores that because she doesn't want to miss the traveling outside of Two Rivers or miss the adventure of it. it is still possible for her to back out. Moraine just sees that the Pattern has plans of its own. Moraine didn't bring Egwene into it the Pattern did.
So it is possible for Egwene to back out but she doesn't want to? How does that invalidate my initial point? If we had examples of Egwene struggling against her role but being forced into it by destiny, that would be a compelling argument. If Egwene wants to come along and she does, surely that indicates choice?

 

 

Because there have always been such great calls made!?!?(See Mat in the Seven Striped Lass)BS has had difficulty at times hitting the mark, that can't be disputed.

Excuse me? I believe it can be disputed. In fact, the one example you gave me(vague as it was) did not seem to be the least bit out of character. In any case, it's pretty laughable that you or any fan could claim to have a better handle on the characters then the editor of the series and widow of the author.

 

Until you(or someone) manages to dig up some statement with Harriet(or even Brandon) acknowledging that some characters were(or even might have been) out-of-character, you do not have any ability to effectively argue your point.

Why is Harriet's opinion (or Sanderson's, for that matter) noteworthy? Simply saying "but Harriet..." is effectively arguing your point. She has an opinion on the characters. So does everyone here. Why is hers more valid than anyone elses?
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What would make Egwene's arc in TGS more believable to me? First thing that comes to mind- throw away the scene where an old, experienced Aes Sedai asks Egwene, (who is a teenager and who's never had a warder) for advice how to deal with this warder's problems (it was ageing, as I recall :laugh: ).And Egwene solemnly answers with something very wise, of course. There is such a thing as carrying your point too far.

Another scene like that is when Suana asks Egwene (who by her own admission can't heal more than a bruise) to join the Yellows.

 

"We should very much like to have you in the Yellow, I think," the woman said.

Egwene started. "I've never shown particular skill for Healing."

"Being of the Yellow isn't about skill, child," Suana said. "It's about passion. If you love to make things well, to fix that which is broken, there would be a purpose for you here."

"My thanks," Egwene said. "But the Amyrlin has no Ajah."

"Yes, but she's raised from one. Consider it, Egwene. I think you would find a good home here."

Egwene may have a passion for making things well, but no passion or talent for making people well, which is what the Yellow Ajah is about. They're not mediators like the Gray Ajah. The scene felt like a ham-fisted attempt to make us think Egwene would fit in every Ajah, when she does not and doesn't really need to in order to be a good Amyrlin. You don't need to be a doctor to run the hospital.

 

In a way, it makes Egwene seem even more like a chameleon: she wins people's respect (Suana, Adelorna, the Whites) not for her unique qualities but because they think she resembles them.

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What would make Egwene's arc in TGS more believable to me? First thing that comes to mind- throw away the scene where an old, experienced Aes Sedai asks Egwene, (who is a teenager and who's never had a warder) for advice how to deal with this warder's problems (it was ageing, as I recall :laugh: ).And Egwene solemnly answers with something very wise, of course. There is such a thing as carrying your point too far.

Another scene like that is when Suana asks Egwene (who by her own admission can't heal more than a bruise) to join the Yellows.

 

"We should very much like to have you in the Yellow, I think," the woman said.

Egwene started. "I've never shown particular skill for Healing."

"Being of the Yellow isn't about skill, child," Suana said. "It's about passion. If you love to make things well, to fix that which is broken, there would be a purpose for you here."

"My thanks," Egwene said. "But the Amyrlin has no Ajah."

"Yes, but she's raised from one. Consider it, Egwene. I think you would find a good home here."

Egwene may have a passion for making things well, but no passion or talent for making people well, which is what the Yellow Ajah is about. They're not mediators like the Gray Ajah. The scene felt like a ham-fisted attempt to make us think Egwene would fit in every Ajah, when she does not and doesn't really need to in order to be a good Amyrlin. You don't need to be a doctor to run the hospital.

 

In a way, it makes Egwene seem even more like a chameleon: she wins people's respect (Suana, Adelorna, the Whites) not for her unique qualities but because they think she resembles them.

 

That's another good point.

 

IMHO, the character described in TGS is an archetypal perfect Amyrlin and no longer Egwene - a person whom we have known from previous books. So the perfect Amyrlin fits in all Ajahs, even though Egwene clearly didn't (Yellows as you said, Greys - she never was a mediator, Browns - she has almost no education in history, languages etc.). The perfect Amyrlin is wise and very experienced - Egwene can't be for obvious reasons. The Perfect Amyrlin is passionate about the Tower above all else - as was shown in other thread on Egwene ("Where the passion came from?"), her personal history doesn't really justify this passion and commitment for the Tower, which supersedes her loyalty to family, friends and country of her birth.

 

So if you haven't read TGS, you could guess what Egwene would do in any situation described in the book by thinking what the archetypal perfect Amyrlin would do. You don't need to know anything at all about Egwene.

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Rand even confronts Egwene and asks her not to come because of the dangers. she ignores that because she doesn't want to miss the traveling outside of Two Rivers or miss the adventure of it. it is still possible for her to back out. Moraine just sees that the Pattern has plans of its own. Moraine didn't bring Egwene into it the Pattern did.
So it is possible for Egwene to back out but she doesn't want to? How does that invalidate my initial point? If we had examples of Egwene struggling against her role but being forced into it by destiny, that would be a compelling argument. If Egwene wants to come along and she does, surely that indicates choice?

 

 

Because there have always been such great calls made!?!?(See Mat in the Seven Striped Lass)BS has had difficulty at times hitting the mark, that can't be disputed.

Excuse me? I believe it can be disputed. In fact, the one example you gave me(vague as it was) did not seem to be the least bit out of character. In any case, it's pretty laughable that you or any fan could claim to have a better handle on the characters then the editor of the series and widow of the author.

 

Until you(or someone) manages to dig up some statement with Harriet(or even Brandon) acknowledging that some characters were(or even might have been) out-of-character, you do not have any ability to effectively argue your point.

Why is Harriet's opinion (or Sanderson's, for that matter) noteworthy? Simply saying "but Harriet..." is effectively arguing your point. She has an opinion on the characters. So does everyone here. Why is hers more valid than anyone elses?

 

Obviously because unlike anyone else Harriet had access to RJ for decades while he thought up all the characters. Of course her opinion is still her own and not RJ's, but her opinion does carry a certain weight.

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True, until you realize that Harriet is not infallible and has made mistakes before, specifically failing to reign in Jordan's writing.The fact that we have to get to the last books for the plots to start resolving is very telling.

 

So no, Harriet's word != word of god.Did Mat seem out of character a little ? In my opinion, he did.Am I unable to discuss that because the book has Harriet's apparent approval ?

 

Actually... Harriet's word IS pretty much word of god. She effectively has the final say on anything that Brandon writes. I agree that she is not infallible, but she the least fallible person in this specific area. Her opinion holds more authority than any fan's because of her position. Arguing that [insert Character Here] is out of character based on your opinion is ridiculously subjective and does not get anyone anywhere, because as far as the authority figures are concerned, they are in character and properly written. Now you, personally, may disagree with the canon depiction of certain characters and that's fine, but your opinion on the matter does not supersede how they are written.

 

Why is Harriet's opinion (or Sanderson's, for that matter) noteworthy? Simply saying "but Harriet..." is effectively arguing your point. She has an opinion on the characters. So does everyone here. Why is hers more valid than anyone elses?

 

...really? You really have to ask that?

 

Because they are the people who are now defining the characters! Their "opinion" is what is canon now in the WoT.

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Because there have always been such great calls made!?!?(See Mat in the Seven Striped Lass)BS has had difficulty at times hitting the mark, that can't be disputed.

 

Excuse me? I believe it can be disputed. In fact, the one example you gave me(vague as it was) did not seem to be the least bit out of character. In any case, it's pretty laughable that you or any fan could claim to have a better handle on the characters then the editor of the series and widow of the author.

 

Until you(or someone) manages to dig up some statement with Harriet(or even Brandon) acknowledging that some characters were(or even might have been) out-of-character, you do not have any ability to effectively argue your point.

 

There have been criticisms over the years in terms of editing with the WoT. Your whole argument is based on the premise that Harriet is incapable of mistakes. Of course she is the best qualified to make decisions on the direction of the series, what she thinks RJ would have wanted, etc. Another point that hasn't been brought up is how quickly TGS and ToM were rushed through the editing process. They both could have used another couple months at least to really polish the work and find all the errors.

 

One of the few issues that has been widely discussed in terms of BS finishing the series is his problem getting certain characters right. He is the one writing not Harriet, if he struggles depicting a certain character there is only so much editing can do. The proof is in the pages.(Another example that many readers have mentioned is the Hinderstrap ch in TGS)

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Guest PiotrekS

One of the few issues that has been widely discussed in terms of BS finishing the series is his problem getting certain characters right. He is the one writing not Harriet, if he struggles depicting a certain character there is only so much editing can do. The proof is in the pages.(Another example that many readers have mentioned is the Hinderstrap ch in TGS)

 

Oh yes, the whole Hinderstrap chapter was a nightmare.

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One of the few issues that has been widely discussed in terms of BS finishing the series is his problem getting certain characters right. He is the one writing not Harriet, if he struggles depicting a certain character there is only so much editing can do. The proof is in the pages.(Another example that many readers have mentioned is the Hinderstrap ch in TGS)

 

Oh yes, the whole Hinderstrap chapter was a nightmare.

 

And, even if Harriet found a depiction "off", that doesn't mean she knows how to fix it.

 

If you go to art museums, sometimes you will see a painter copying one of the paintings on display. The copies are seldom perfect. As I look at what the copyist has done, I can see that something is "off."

 

That doesn't mean I know how to fix it.

 

Also, and I in no way intend to insult anyone, the fact is that this entire series could have benefitted from being much more tightly edited.

Edited by randsc
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Guest PiotrekS

One of the few issues that has been widely discussed in terms of BS finishing the series is his problem getting certain characters right. He is the one writing not Harriet, if he struggles depicting a certain character there is only so much editing can do. The proof is in the pages.(Another example that many readers have mentioned is the Hinderstrap ch in TGS)

 

Oh yes, the whole Hinderstrap chapter was a nightmare.

 

And, even if Harriet found a depiction "off", that doesn't mean she knows how to fix it.

 

If you go to art museums, sometimes you will see a painter copying one of the paintings on display. The copies are seldom perfect. As I look at what the copyist has done, I can see that something is "off."

 

That doesn't mean I know how to fix it.

 

Also, and I in no way intend to insult anyone, the fact is that this entire series could have benefitted from being much more tightly edited.

 

There are some cases - Hinderstrap is one in my opinion - when simply deleting a chapter or a scene from the text would improve its overall quality.

 

But generally you are absolutely right.

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True, until you realize that Harriet is not infallible and has made mistakes before, specifically failing to reign in Jordan's writing.The fact that we have to get to the last books for the plots to start resolving is very telling.

 

So no, Harriet's word != word of god.Did Mat seem out of character a little ? In my opinion, he did.Am I unable to discuss that because the book has Harriet's apparent approval ?

 

Actually... Harriet's word IS pretty much word of god. She effectively has the final say on anything that Brandon writes. I agree that she is not infallible, but she the least fallible person in this specific area. Her opinion holds more authority than any fan's because of her position. Arguing that [insert Character Here] is out of character based on your opinion is ridiculously subjective and does not get anyone anywhere, because as far as the authority figures are concerned, they are in character and properly written. Now you, personally, may disagree with the canon depiction of certain characters and that's fine, but your opinion on the matter does not supersede how they are written.

 

Why is Harriet's opinion (or Sanderson's, for that matter) noteworthy? Simply saying "but Harriet..." is effectively arguing your point. She has an opinion on the characters. So does everyone here. Why is hers more valid than anyone elses?

 

...really? You really have to ask that?

 

Because they are the people who are now defining the characters! Their "opinion" is what is canon now in the WoT.

One could argue that what is cannon is what RJ left in his notes.

Also for a ridiculously subjective opinion, it does seem to have been noticed by quite a few people and as I've said she is far from infallible.She did not write the character , BS did.Unless you are arguing that BS writes exactly like (and I mean the exactly part) RJ,some differences will surface here and there.With that said, Harriet did not have a problem with them or it wouldn't get her permission.That does not mean however that my opinion is somehow less valid.

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Why is Hinderstrap so bad (the writing)? Maybe I'm just clueless and don't see these things :wacko:

 

Well, I think it is bad, but it is only my strictly subjective opinion.

 

For me it reads like an intrusion from a kitsch B-class horror zombie movie into WOT, and therefore is inconsistent with the style and overall "feel" of the story. It neither helps the plot, nor does it enrich the world or character-building, nor is it an epic or emotional scene.

 

It is basically a lot of running, hacking and slashing at mindless zombies. Which is not what I like about WOT :tongue:

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I would say that her having an opinion on the characters are valid (i. e she is allowed to have one), she is writing the characters, well she and Brandon but on opinion on the chars, everyone else are entitled to them. Just because an author wrote a character in a book, doesn´t mean that we as readers are not allowed an opinion of them. Some will think that his character and that was off. The author may feel that Egwene´s road to be the Amyrlin is making sense, and can point proof of that in the books while a reader can point to other things in the books and disagree.

 

I also remember in an Egwene discussion that someone said, that we are unfair towards Egwene cause we judge her as a real human, something of some sorts... can´t remember.

 

(Haven´t read ToM so I dk if some of these things have happened =P)

I was thinking about Egwene, as being a counterweight to Rand. Rand is the Dragon, saidinwielding male, and he is destined to fight the Patternripper. I know when the AoLs discovered the bore it was Latra Poase (sp?) that opposed LTTs plan: so the men went alone, tainted saidin, madness ensued, breaking of world.

Egwene is the saidarwielding female, and what if her role is to oppose Rand in his crazy plan to smash the seals, that is why she has been so stubborn in accepting Rand. As Rand had his Dark period Egwene is still in hers, and epiphany will not come for her. Saidin is a power that needs to be dominated, seized, and now that Rand Sedai has found his Light, he is the one bending without breaking, surrending to the Pattern, and also forming the Pattern around him, he has become more saidar-ish.. Egwene on the other hand is unyielding, strong, a dominant force, the center of the Aes Sedai Tower, that doesn´t wanna change her mind about Rand,is has become more saidin-ish.

Rand can bend, but Egwene will break.

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Any of you all wonder if the author ever rationalized, on any level, even a personal level, how he wrote some characters so that even though you've got the case of hinderstap Mat (barf), or Elayne in ToM (uh..wah?) he could explain it away under 'Oh, well Mat just got married in a weird way and he's thrown through a loop' or 'Elayne's pretty preggo'd up, so her hormones would make her say crazy things' or even 'Well Rand just integrated with an aspect of himself and became quasi-enlightened so of course he acts differently'

 

As to say, BS probably, one should hope, is aware of how some of his efforts have come off; TGS Mat, Elayne ToM, Egwene ToM. Barf, Hurl, Where the heck is all that coming from..?

 

I really just loathe the idea that an author would cop out mentally with the idea that their, in my opinion, fair, or sometimes even poor effort in writing, can be explained away with paper thin context. Sort of the angle that changes in character shouldn't be used as an excuse for writing them like beans.

 

Tie-in to the thread about three questions you'd ask BS:

 

1.) How much pride do you have in the way you've written each character

2.) Do you smoke dope

3.) What were you on

 

 

Just sayin, dude needs to up his game... :uno:

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Any of you all wonder if the author ever rationalized, on any level, even a personal level, how he wrote some characters so that even though you've got the case of hinderstap Mat (barf), or Elayne in ToM (uh..wah?) he could explain it away under 'Oh, well Mat just got married in a weird way and he's thrown through a loop' or 'Elayne's pretty preggo'd up, so her hormones would make her say crazy things' or even 'Well Rand just integrated with an aspect of himself and became quasi-enlightened so of course he acts differently'

 

As to say, BS probably, one should hope, is aware of how some of his efforts have come off; TGS Mat, Elayne ToM, Egwene ToM. Barf, Hurl, Where the heck is all that coming from..?

 

I really just loathe the idea that an author would cop out mentally with the idea that their, in my opinion, fair, or sometimes even poor effort in writing, can be explained away with paper thin context. Sort of the angle that changes in character shouldn't be used as an excuse for writing them like beans.

 

Tie-in to the thread about three questions you'd ask BS:

 

1.) How much pride do you have in the way you've written each character

2.) Do you smoke dope

3.) What were you on

 

 

Just sayin, dude needs to up his game... :uno:

What was wrong with Elayne in ToM? :huh: I actually hated her less in book 13 than in any of the others, but I didn't really think she was written poorly. Same with Egwene, she seemed the same throughout ToM as she did near the end of TGS(after she left the Tower), any problems with her started around then imo.

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Guest cindy.

i think he's doing his best. i think valid criticism can be made of anything or anyone without being abusive.

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