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Egwene ugh


Toral alCaar
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Nope they are refering to the situation in FoH when Egwene wanted to teach Nyn a lesson and summoned some ugly brutes that ripped her dress, tried to kiss her and so on and then how Egwene reacted to her own actions... If I not misstaken.

 

I´m actually doing a reread and I don´t like Egwene as a person in a fictional book lol. I think she is selfcentered, shallow and as I´ve written before, I think she gets better in the end, when she opposes Elaida (haven´t read TOM) but her arc and growth doesn´t seem natural to me, it seems forced and planned and simply written to get Eggy from A to B. That´s maybe why I dislike her...

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So my daughter insists on walking home through a bad part of town, just because she is curious. I am naturally concerned for her safety. So I have a couple of my friends waylay her on her way home, drag her into an alley, and rip her clothes. As a consequence, she learns her lesson, and never again walks home through the bad part of town.

 

Am I a good father?

 

Taking it one step further:

 

My daughter insists on walking home through a bad part of town, just because she is curious. I don't want her walking through that part of town, because the piece I am getting on the side lives there, and I am afraid my daughter will see me and tell my wife. So I have a couple of my friends waylay my daughter on her way home, drag her into an alley, and rip her clothes. As a consequence, she learns her lesson, and never again walks home through the bad part of town, plus my secret is safe from my wife.

 

Am I a good father?

 

Seriously, Egwene's actions toward Nynaeve were inexcusable. I don't see how anyone can reasonably argue otherwise.

 

Your example was waaaaaaay better and more relevant than my burglary/murder example. And even though I dislike the character, I don't generally think she's a bad person. But her actions in this particular situation should not be defended, even by those that like her.

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Now, onto the subject of Rand. She's known him all her life, yet she assumes the worst about him every chance she gets. Sure he's changed, but come on! Have a little faith in the man! She apparently believes she needs to be controlled guided, and the Aes Sedai should be the ones to do it. Seriously? After she has witnessed first hand the extremity of Aes Sedai stupidity? Unbelievable.

 

 

Actually, this is one area where she has been extremely consistent. She has always treated Rand (and all men) with naught but disrespect and as though they don't have the sense to tie their own shoes without a woman telling them exactly what to do. There is a sign, in the very beginning, that Rand knows full well that Egwene dismisses anything he says (remember in tEotW when Perrin walks up, talking about the "rider"/Fade and Rand clams up because he knows what Egwene's response will be?) and is not really trustworthy. She is no confidante to him, quite the opposite - she treats him like he's a moron and is always trying to be a pushy bitch with him.

 

Anyway, my point is that she has always assumed the worst of Rand and Rand knows it. This is nothing new. The rest of her supposed "growth" (aka, destroying every character around her and diminishing them to build her up to the perfect Mary Sue she has become) may not be consistent or make sense, but her horrible attitude toward Rand has been around since day 1.

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So my daughter insists on walking home through a bad part of town, just because she is curious. I am naturally concerned for her safety. So I have a couple of my friends waylay her on her way home, drag her into an alley, and rip her clothes. As a consequence, she learns her lesson, and never again walks home through the bad part of town.

 

Am I a good father?

 

Taking it one step further:

 

My daughter insists on walking home through a bad part of town, just because she is curious. I don't want her walking through that part of town, because the piece I am getting on the side lives there, and I am afraid my daughter will see me and tell my wife. So I have a couple of my friends waylay my daughter on her way home, drag her into an alley, and rip her clothes. As a consequence, she learns her lesson, and never again walks home through the bad part of town, plus my secret is safe from my wife.

 

Am I a good father?

 

Seriously, Egwene's actions toward Nynaeve were inexcusable. I don't see how anyone can reasonably argue otherwise.

 

Great analogy!

 

I also don't undestand how many smart and reasonable readers can have no problem with some of Egwene's actions and especially the way she is written. It probably comes from some basic differences in the way in which we perceive reality :tongue:

 

I think that, when both contrasting views of Egwene are fully stated and explained, further discussion probably won't change anybody's mind.

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So my daughter insists on walking home through a bad part of town, just because she is curious. I am naturally concerned for her safety. So I have a couple of my friends waylay her on her way home, drag her into an alley, and rip her clothes. As a consequence, she learns her lesson, and never again walks home through the bad part of town.

 

Am I a good father?

 

Taking it one step further:

 

My daughter insists on walking home through a bad part of town, just because she is curious. I don't want her walking through that part of town, because the piece I am getting on the side lives there, and I am afraid my daughter will see me and tell my wife. So I have a couple of my friends waylay my daughter on her way home, drag her into an alley, and rip her clothes. As a consequence, she learns her lesson, and never again walks home through the bad part of town, plus my secret is safe from my wife.

 

Am I a good father?

 

Seriously, Egwene's actions toward Nynaeve were inexcusable. I don't see how anyone can reasonably argue otherwise.

 

All I can say is, if Egwene and Gawyn have children, they better stay away from the bad parts of Tar Valon. :myrddraal:

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So my daughter insists on walking home through a bad part of town, just because she is curious. I am naturally concerned for her safety. So I have a couple of my friends waylay her on her way home, drag her into an alley, and rip her clothes. As a consequence, she learns her lesson, and never again walks home through the bad part of town.

 

Am I a good father?

 

Taking it one step further:

 

My daughter insists on walking home through a bad part of town, just because she is curious. I don't want her walking through that part of town, because the piece I am getting on the side lives there, and I am afraid my daughter will see me and tell my wife. So I have a couple of my friends waylay my daughter on her way home, drag her into an alley, and rip her clothes. As a consequence, she learns her lesson, and never again walks home through the bad part of town, plus my secret is safe from my wife.

 

Am I a good father?

 

Seriously, Egwene's actions toward Nynaeve were inexcusable. I don't see how anyone can reasonably argue otherwise.

 

All I can say is, if Egwene and Gawyn have children, they better stay away from the bad parts of Tar Valon. :myrddraal:

 

Well, Gawyn would get no say in raising their child, anyway. He is there to obey Egwene and do her bidding, not to think. She'd make him change the kid's diapers, feed it, and clean up its puke. Actually, I can't see her as a mother at all. She just isn't caring enough, or compassionate enough, to be a good mom to a kid, especially if it was a boy (in which case, the poor boy would get beaten any time he didn't kneel in front of her and drop his head to the floor or obey her quickly enough to suit her). She'd be the Mommy, Dearest of WoT! *wonders how many people here even know what Mommy, Dearest is*

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Now, onto the subject of Rand. She's known him all her life, yet she assumes the worst about him every chance she gets. Sure he's changed, but come on! Have a little faith in the man! She apparently believes she needs to be controlled guided, and the Aes Sedai should be the ones to do it. Seriously? After she has witnessed first hand the extremity of Aes Sedai stupidity? Unbelievable.

 

 

Actually, this is one area where she has been extremely consistent. She has always treated Rand (and all men) with naught but disrespect and as though they don't have the sense to tie their own shoes without a woman telling them exactly what to do. There is a sign, in the very beginning, that Rand knows full well that Egwene dismisses anything he says (remember in tEotW when Perrin walks up, talking about the "rider"/Fade and Rand clams up because he knows what Egwene's response will be?) and is not really trustworthy. She is no confidante to him, quite the opposite - she treats him like he's a moron and is always trying to be a pushy bitch with him.

 

Anyway, my point is that she has always assumed the worst of Rand and Rand knows it. This is nothing new. The rest of her supposed "growth" (aka, destroying every character around her and diminishing them to build her up to the perfect Mary Sue she has become) may not be consistent or make sense, but her horrible attitude toward Rand has been around since day 1.

Y'know, I think you're right. I guess I can scratch that off my list.

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Look there have been many good points raised that legitimately show faults in Egwene's character. As I mentioned before what isn't so good is the descriptions people incredibly inflate when talking about her. In this thread alone she has been accused of rape, being "forsaken like", one who will abuse her children, a torturer, destroying every character around her, being retarded, and a "pious witch". Every one needs to just stop frothing for a second and be a bit more realistic.

Edited by Suttree
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Look there have been many good points raised that legitimately show faults in Egwene's character. As I mentioned before what isn't so good is the descriptions people incredibly inflate when talking about her. In this thread alone she has been accused of rape, being "forsaken like", one who will abuse her children, a torturer, destroying every character around her, being retarded, and a "pious witch". Every one needs to just stop frothing for a second and be a bit more realistic.

There's been hyperbole and antagonism from both sides, buddy. :wink:

 

This is what happens when people get a really good discourse going, they get really involved and aggressively defend their points of view. I love it, it shows people care about the issue.

Edited by Sleeper
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Look there have been many good points raised that legitimately show faults in Egwene's character. As I mentioned before what isn't so good is the descriptions people incredibly inflate when talking about her. In this thread alone she has been accused of rape, being "forsaken like", one who will abuse her children, a torturer, destroying every character around her, being retarded, and a "pious witch". Every one needs to just stop frothing for a second and be a bit more realistic.

There's been hyperbole and antagonism from both sides, buddy. :wink:

 

This is what happens when people get a really good discourse going, they get really involved and aggressively defend their points of view. I love it, it shows people care about the issue.

 

I'm all for that, just like it when people provide quotes and make a case(as some have done) to encourage rational discourse, instead of falling back to the lowest common denominator. It just gets tired.

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I wouldn't accuse her of all that . . .

 

I don't particularly like Egwene but I also don't think she was made to be particularly liked by everyone (especially Rand and Mat fans). A lot of people forget her situation as they are reading it with their third person perspective. She grew up in a world where all men who channeled grew mad and women for the most part made all the "important" decisions. She grew a lot in the early part of the series. Keep in mind she was what? 18? Who really acts any more mature at 18 than she did? After seeing the world and gaining some wisdom she is still tinged with her upbringing and it would be unrealistic if she didn't act like men didn't know what they were doing. Bias doesn't simply go away after all. Now she has to prove to the world that she isn't just a child and instead is qualified to be one of it's leaders so she overcompensates at times as well as shows bias. Things a real person would do in that position.

 

She still annoys the crap out of me at times though.

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Like many other young women her age, Egwene has too little understanding of the world and too much short-sighted attitude. Despite all her good qualities she is still way too immature to be Amyrlin.

 

I originally put this on the LoLCats thread, but I think it fits here better:

 

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Edited by Kestrel
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Egwene needs to get laid.

 

Definitely. I don't think it's any coincedence that Nynaeve's climb from annoying to awesome really kicked into high gear once she was getting some regular action from Lan. Egwene could benefit as well. :biggrin:

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Which goes back to the whole 'for a woman to be tolerable, she needs a man' argument, which goes along nicely with 'for a man to be tolerable, he needs to stay single' (see Perrin).

Edited by Terez
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When Mat sounded the horn, how many heroes did it say appeared exactly? If it was 99, then we're lead to assume it was Mat who made 100.

 

However. In ToM it's revealed the snakes gave him the memories of battles. Could this mean Egwene is one of the heroes of the Horn and thus why she has played such a prominent and powerful role?

 

Just a thought. don't shoot me please

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Which goes back to the whole 'for a woman to be tolerable, she needs a man' argument, which goes along nicely with 'for a man to be tolerable, he needs to stay single' (see Perrin).

 

Why invent something that wasn't said? Plenty of uptight male characters need a good lay too. Galad immediately comes to mind. His brother could also use some loosening up and relief from his pent up feelings. Even if it wasn't a joke it would simply be a comment on a particular personality trait (being uptight) I believe she possesses and not because she's a woman. It's uptight-ism, not sexism. I also don't think people think Perrin needs to be single, they just want him to be with a woman they like better than Faile. Or to not be so single-mindedly emo about it. Which is a flaw in his character and not the woman's.

Edited by Mark Grayson
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Which goes back to the whole 'for a woman to be tolerable, she needs a man' argument, which goes along nicely with 'for a man to be tolerable, he needs to stay single' (see Perrin).

Why invent something that wasn't said?

That's a good question.

 

Being that Egwene is Aes Sedai, she doesn't need a man, maybe a "Rabbit", I think they called them Shock Lances in the Age of Legends.

Or Elayne's hotrod (the imagined purpose, rather than the actual one). I think Egwene would be content enough with that if it came down to it. She was willing to sacrifice Gawyn for the greater objective, after all. She might have died for it, but really that's entirely coincidental (as in, RJ wrote it that way). But the Egwene arc just goes to show that a woman needs a man. Dragonmount goes to show that a man needs three women, not to save him from attackers, Light forbid (unless they are women, of course) but to give him something to look forward to. Men are simple like that.

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Guest Emu on the Loose

I'm beginning to get the sense that the sexism in WoT will be one of the primary reasons that the series is not viewed more favorably by literary historians to come. Reading some of the comments in this thread (usually I just avoid Egwene threads altogether) has given me an epiphany: One of my big complaints about WoT is that the characters are too often one-dimensional. However, I never realized before now that almost all of that one-dimensionality is channeled through characters' sex. The only major exception is that Shadow characters get an extra heap of one-dimensionality by being colored with dime shop traits of villainy.

 

I blame certain fans of the series more than RJ himself for projecting so much sexism onto the characters, but RJ himself facilitated this through his characterizations. I think what he was trying to show was a world where both sexes are equally important (a rebuke of traditionalist Christian thought) but that, as a result of this, both misandry and misogyny were equally strong. I think he deliberately wrote a lot of sexism into his characters as a social commentary on human nature, but I also think that he, as one of the transitional generation of writers who grew up before the second-wave feminist movement but was an adult after it had taken hold, never truly absorbed the lesson of sexual equality which many younger people (but by no means most) found so easy to grow up with. As a result he was able to grasp the concept that women are as important as men, but he didn't personally believe that women are interchangeable with men in a culture's social institutions. I think he would never have accepted WoT as a credible story if he had reversed the sex of every character. (I, on the other hand, would have found it a delightful read.)

 

RJ's superficial characterizations give fans the opportunity to fill in a lot of the blanks ourselves. I like that and I like to think that was partly his intention. However, ultimately they will hold back the series from the status of true literature, and future literary buffs will inevitably notice with disfavor that a lot of that shallowness falls on sexual lines.

 

Well, how about that. Something educational came out of an Egwene-bashing thread!

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I was a big fan of her until she went to Salidar, then she stopped acting like a normal character and turned into a clone of some of the other Aes Sedai

 

I disliked her until she went to the Aiel, then her growth and maturation made me like her. She went to Salidar, and her political savvy made me like her. While I hated reading the Elayne sequences from PoD -> ToM, I liked reading the Egwene sections. Then Egwene was captured in the Tower, and her grace under the circumstances REALLY made me like her. Along with Rand's arc in EoTW (and his post-Dragonmount arc), Mat's arc with Tuon, and Perrin's Two Rivers arc (pre-Faile kidnapping), Egwene's Tower arc is my favorite in the series.

 

I never understood the haters. She has her annoying quirks, but she stopped being wrong as much once she went with the Aiel, at least. It seems to me that it boils down to whether or not you like the Aes Sedai. I do, so seeing Egwene become one is not a bad thing for me.

I couldn't agree with you more

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Egwene was fine until ToM. That entire book she was just contradictory. I.e

 

Egwene: Even though Rand didnt order Asha`man to bond Aes Sedia, he should still be held responsible

Nynaeve: Doesnt that mean you should be held responsible for Aes Sedai capturing him?

Egwene: Nah thats crazy talk

 

Obviously thats not word for word :P But Sanderson seemed to go out of his way to make Egwene seem wrong in basically everything in ToM.

 

And this is from someone who has argued constantly about how awesome Cadsuane is.

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