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I don't think it's any coincedence that Nynaeve's climb from annoying to awesome really kicked into high gear once she was getting some regular action from Lan. Egwene could benefit as well. :biggrin:

I think it had more to do with having lost her block in ACoS. She probably always had a temper, but it can't have helped that for almost a decade, being angry was the only way for her to touch the Source.

 

Could this mean Egwene is one of the heroes of the Horn and thus why she has played such a prominent and powerful role?

She does like to imagine herself that way...

 

Her eyes kept trying to drift shut as she read, fuzzily half-dreaming the stories in the book. She could be as strong as any of these women, as strong and brave as Dunsinin or Nerein or Melisinde or even Birgitte, as strong as Aviendha.

--FoH

 

I destroyed them, she thought with a smile, thoughts slipping away from her. I was a burning warrior, a hero called by the Horn. They won't dare face me again.

--TGS

Edited by sleepinghour
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Look there have been many good points raised that legitimately show faults in Egwene's character. As I mentioned before what isn't so good is the descriptions people incredibly inflate when talking about her. In this thread alone she has been accused of rape, being "forsaken like", one who will abuse her children, a torturer, destroying every character around her, being retarded, and a "pious witch". Every one needs to just stop frothing for a second and be a bit more realistic.

There's been hyperbole and antagonism from both sides, buddy. :wink:

 

This is what happens when people get a really good discourse going, they get really involved and aggressively defend their points of view. I love it, it shows people care about the issue.

 

I'm all for that, just like it when people provide quotes and make a case(as some have done) to encourage rational discourse, instead of falling back to the lowest common denominator. It just gets tired.

 

Dont read the thread then.

 

Being that Egwene is Aes Sedai, she doesn't need a man, maybe a "Rabbit", I think they called them Shock Lances in the Age of Legends.

 

Awesome! Hahahahaha

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Egwene needs to get laid.

 

Definitely. I don't think it's any coincedence that Nynaeve's climb from annoying to awesome really kicked into high gear once she was getting some regular action from Lan. Egwene could benefit as well. :biggrin:

 

I don't think it was the fact that she was getting laid. I think it was a combination of two things. First, being married to a strong, intelligent and capable man caused her to re-examine her long-held beliefs that only women can be strong, intelligent and capable. Second, being married according to Sea Folk traditions, where the spouse with the right to command in public is the one commanded in private, likely put some brakes on her behavior.

 

So was she changed by marriage? Yes. By sex? Don't really think so.

 

Now, no doubt there will be some whining about how that means that Nynaeve needed a man, and how sexist that is. That will, it hardly needs saying, be absolute bunk. As you point out, male characters could similarly benefit. Galad will be much improved by Berelain. Not by sleeping with her. But by being with her.

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Egwene was fine until ToM. That entire book she was just contradictory. I.e

 

Egwene: Even though Rand didnt order Asha`man to bond Aes Sedia, he should still be held responsible

Nynaeve: Doesnt that mean you should be held responsible for Aes Sedai capturing him?

Egwene: Nah thats crazy talk

 

Obviously thats not word for word :P But Sanderson seemed to go out of his way to make Egwene seem wrong in basically everything in ToM.

 

And this is from someone who has argued constantly about how awesome Cadsuane is.

 

 

Bingo.

 

You can clearly see that. The Egwene in TGS is all RJ whereas the one in TOM is definitely sanderson's. Obviously i have no proof to show this but the writing in KOD and TGS was consistent for egwene. In TOM it completely takes on a new track so to speak.

 

Awesomness still pretty much undiminishe

Edited by Elan Tedronai
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Which goes back to the whole 'for a woman to be tolerable, she needs a man' argument, which goes along nicely with 'for a man to be tolerable, he needs to stay single' (see Perrin).

Why invent something that wasn't said?

That's a good question.

 

Being that Egwene is Aes Sedai, she doesn't need a man, maybe a "Rabbit", I think they called them Shock Lances in the Age of Legends.

Or Elayne's hotrod (the imagined purpose, rather than the actual one). I think Egwene would be content enough with that if it came down to it. She was willing to sacrifice Gawyn for the greater objective, after all. She might have died for it, but really that's entirely coincidental (as in, RJ wrote it that way). But the Egwene arc just goes to show that a woman needs a man. Dragonmount goes to show that a man needs three women, not to save him from attackers, Light forbid (unless they are women, of course) but to give him something to look forward to. Men are simple like that.

 

Is Elayne's hotrod the device that took two women to lift? I will be amazed if Gawyn lives through the end. Egwene is a hard woman to please, which is why I believe Gawyn wears those physically enhancing rings. I would love to see any of the women come to Rands rescue when fighting a Forsaken and save his a@@. Egwene's arc shows that she does need a man, to sacrifice. lol The Dragonmount comment is funny as hell.

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I was never a fan of Egwene, in fact I really don't like her. Then I wondered what do other people think about her.

 

 

i didn't consider her as a remarkable character at the beginning of the series, but the scene with Seanchan attacking and Egwene linking with novices was awsome. I started to love her from that very moment. she turned out to be a great amyrlinn.

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I'm beginning to get the sense that the sexism in WoT will be one of the primary reasons that the series is not viewed more favorably by literary historians to come. Reading some of the comments in this thread (usually I just avoid Egwene threads altogether) has given me an epiphany: One of my big complaints about WoT is that the characters are too often one-dimensional. However, I never realized before now that almost all of that one-dimensionality is channeled through characters' sex. The only major exception is that Shadow characters get an extra heap of one-dimensionality by being colored with dime shop traits of villainy.

 

I blame certain fans of the series more than RJ himself for projecting so much sexism onto the characters, but RJ himself facilitated this through his characterizations. I think what he was trying to show was a world where both sexes are equally important (a rebuke of traditionalist Christian thought) but that, as a result of this, both misandry and misogyny were equally strong. I think he deliberately wrote a lot of sexism into his characters as a social commentary on human nature, but I also think that he, as one of the transitional generation of writers who grew up before the second-wave feminist movement but was an adult after it had taken hold, never truly absorbed the lesson of sexual equality which many younger people (but by no means most) found so easy to grow up with. As a result he was able to grasp the concept that women are as important as men, but he didn't personally believe that women are interchangeable with men in a culture's social institutions. I think he would never have accepted WoT as a credible story if he had reversed the sex of every character. (I, on the other hand, would have found it a delightful read.)

 

RJ's superficial characterizations give fans the opportunity to fill in a lot of the blanks ourselves. I like that and I like to think that was partly his intention. However, ultimately they will hold back the series from the status of true literature, and future literary buffs will inevitably notice with disfavor that a lot of that shallowness falls on sexual lines.

 

Well, how about that. Something educational came out of an Egwene-bashing thread!

 

Well said.Well said.

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Guest PiotrekS

I'm beginning to get the sense that the sexism in WoT will be one of the primary reasons that the series is not viewed more favorably by literary historians to come. Reading some of the comments in this thread (usually I just avoid Egwene threads altogether) has given me an epiphany: One of my big complaints about WoT is that the characters are too often one-dimensional. However, I never realized before now that almost all of that one-dimensionality is channeled through characters' sex. The only major exception is that Shadow characters get an extra heap of one-dimensionality by being colored with dime shop traits of villainy.

 

I blame certain fans of the series more than RJ himself for projecting so much sexism onto the characters, but RJ himself facilitated this through his characterizations. I think what he was trying to show was a world where both sexes are equally important (a rebuke of traditionalist Christian thought) but that, as a result of this, both misandry and misogyny were equally strong. I think he deliberately wrote a lot of sexism into his characters as a social commentary on human nature, but I also think that he, as one of the transitional generation of writers who grew up before the second-wave feminist movement but was an adult after it had taken hold, never truly absorbed the lesson of sexual equality which many younger people (but by no means most) found so easy to grow up with. As a result he was able to grasp the concept that women are as important as men, but he didn't personally believe that women are interchangeable with men in a culture's social institutions. I think he would never have accepted WoT as a credible story if he had reversed the sex of every character. (I, on the other hand, would have found it a delightful read.)

 

RJ's superficial characterizations give fans the opportunity to fill in a lot of the blanks ourselves. I like that and I like to think that was partly his intention. However, ultimately they will hold back the series from the status of true literature, and future literary buffs will inevitably notice with disfavor that a lot of that shallowness falls on sexual lines.

 

Well, how about that. Something educational came out of an Egwene-bashing thread!

 

Well said.Well said.

 

Well, the problem is: whether something is "true literature" or not, has nothing to do with the virtues or ideas it promotes. I think that many misunderstandings on this forum, in threads about controversial issues, come from the fact that many readers mistake literature with journalism or social/political advocacy.

 

If you actually looked at the history of world literature, you would notice that many of universally acclaimed literary masterpieces contain opinions or worldviews contemporary readers would almost never agree with. And it has nothing to do with their literary value.

 

My opinion is almost opposite to what you said: the stronger is the connection between a certain work of literature and current political/sociological or any other controversies, the smaller is the chance that this work will be seen as an everlasting literary masterpiece. When the discussion ends and other problems begin to dominate the discourse, almost all that was written for or against will eventually be forgotten.

 

I agree that WOT is a little sexist. But this fact has nothing to do with its value as a work of literature and will not influence the way in which literary, as opposed to political or ideological scholars, will look at the series in the future.

Edited by PiotrekS
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I'm beginning to get the sense that the sexism in WoT will be one of the primary reasons that the series is not viewed more favorably by literary historians to come. Reading some of the comments in this thread (usually I just avoid Egwene threads altogether) has given me an epiphany: One of my big complaints about WoT is that the characters are too often one-dimensional. However, I never realized before now that almost all of that one-dimensionality is channeled through characters' sex. The only major exception is that Shadow characters get an extra heap of one-dimensionality by being colored with dime shop traits of villainy.

 

I blame certain fans of the series more than RJ himself for projecting so much sexism onto the characters, but RJ himself facilitated this through his characterizations. I think what he was trying to show was a world where both sexes are equally important (a rebuke of traditionalist Christian thought) but that, as a result of this, both misandry and misogyny were equally strong. I think he deliberately wrote a lot of sexism into his characters as a social commentary on human nature, but I also think that he, as one of the transitional generation of writers who grew up before the second-wave feminist movement but was an adult after it had taken hold, never truly absorbed the lesson of sexual equality which many younger people (but by no means most) found so easy to grow up with. As a result he was able to grasp the concept that women are as important as men, but he didn't personally believe that women are interchangeable with men in a culture's social institutions. I think he would never have accepted WoT as a credible story if he had reversed the sex of every character. (I, on the other hand, would have found it a delightful read.)

 

RJ's superficial characterizations give fans the opportunity to fill in a lot of the blanks ourselves. I like that and I like to think that was partly his intention. However, ultimately they will hold back the series from the status of true literature, and future literary buffs will inevitably notice with disfavor that a lot of that shallowness falls on sexual lines.

 

Well, how about that. Something educational came out of an Egwene-bashing thread!

 

Well said.Well said.

 

Well, the problem is: whether something is "true literature" or not, has nothing to do with the virtues or ideas it promotes. I think that many misunderstandings on this forum, in threads about controversial issues, come from the fact that many readers mistake literature with journalism or social/political advocacy.

 

If you actually looked at the history of world literature, you would notice that many of universally acclaimed literary masterpieces contain opinions or worldviews contemporary readers would almost never agree with. And it has nothing to do with their literary value.

 

My opinion is almost opposite to what you said: the stronger is the connection between a certain work of literature and current political/sociological or any other controversies, the smaller is the chance that this work will be seen as an everlasting literary masterpiece. When the discussion ends and other problems begin to dominate the discourse, almost all that was written for or against will eventually be forgotten.

 

I agree that WOT is a little sexist. But this fact has nothing to do with its value as a work of literature and will not influence the way in which literary, as opposed to political or ideological scholars, will look at the series in the future.

 

Well written, but doesn't hold water. Every masterpiece I can think of reflects in some manner its current political/sociological events or other controversies. It doesn't matter how far back you go in time you'll find it. Sexism is prevalent in some manner as well. Either it will be through the authors own perceptions of his/her environment, personal experiences or both. The sexism will be a point of discussion when anyone break down the story in-depth .

Edited by plague fiend
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Guest PiotrekS

I'm beginning to get the sense that the sexism in WoT will be one of the primary reasons that the series is not viewed more favorably by literary historians to come. Reading some of the comments in this thread (usually I just avoid Egwene threads altogether) has given me an epiphany: One of my big complaints about WoT is that the characters are too often one-dimensional. However, I never realized before now that almost all of that one-dimensionality is channeled through characters' sex. The only major exception is that Shadow characters get an extra heap of one-dimensionality by being colored with dime shop traits of villainy.

 

I blame certain fans of the series more than RJ himself for projecting so much sexism onto the characters, but RJ himself facilitated this through his characterizations. I think what he was trying to show was a world where both sexes are equally important (a rebuke of traditionalist Christian thought) but that, as a result of this, both misandry and misogyny were equally strong. I think he deliberately wrote a lot of sexism into his characters as a social commentary on human nature, but I also think that he, as one of the transitional generation of writers who grew up before the second-wave feminist movement but was an adult after it had taken hold, never truly absorbed the lesson of sexual equality which many younger people (but by no means most) found so easy to grow up with. As a result he was able to grasp the concept that women are as important as men, but he didn't personally believe that women are interchangeable with men in a culture's social institutions. I think he would never have accepted WoT as a credible story if he had reversed the sex of every character. (I, on the other hand, would have found it a delightful read.)

 

RJ's superficial characterizations give fans the opportunity to fill in a lot of the blanks ourselves. I like that and I like to think that was partly his intention. However, ultimately they will hold back the series from the status of true literature, and future literary buffs will inevitably notice with disfavor that a lot of that shallowness falls on sexual lines.

 

Well, how about that. Something educational came out of an Egwene-bashing thread!

 

Well said.Well said.

 

Well, the problem is: whether something is "true literature" or not, has nothing to do with the virtues or ideas it promotes. I think that many misunderstandings on this forum, in threads about controversial issues, come from the fact that many readers mistake literature with journalism or social/political advocacy.

 

If you actually looked at the history of world literature, you would notice that many of universally acclaimed literary masterpieces contain opinions or worldviews contemporary readers would almost never agree with. And it has nothing to do with their literary value.

 

My opinion is almost opposite to what you said: the stronger is the connection between a certain work of literature and current political/sociological or any other controversies, the smaller is the chance that this work will be seen as an everlasting literary masterpiece. When the discussion ends and other problems begin to dominate the discourse, almost all that was written for or against will eventually be forgotten.

 

I agree that WOT is a little sexist. But this fact has nothing to do with its value as a work of literature and will not influence the way in which literary, as opposed to political or ideological scholars, will look at the series in the future.

 

Well written, but doesn't hold water. Every masterpiece I can think of reflects in some manner its current political/sociological events or other controversies. It doesn't matter how far back you go in time you'll find it. Sexism is prevalent in some manner as well. Either it will be through the authors own perceptions of his/her environment, personal experiences or both. The sexism will be a point of discussion when anyone break down the story in-depth .

 

Thanks! :smile:

 

I agree that the views of the author and the current worldview of his or hers society are more or less reflected in some literary works. But whether we think these views are correct, incorrect, sexist etc. - it isn't the reason why we think of something as "true literature". We may grumble about the sexism, racism, social injustice and intolerance prevalent in Ancient Greece,Israel, Rome or Medieval Europe, but it should not influence our strictly literary views on Odyssey, the Bible, Horace's poems or Le morte d'Arthur.

 

Similarly, future critics might complain about benign sexism in WOT - for example gratuitous naked ceremonies for women and their absurd monopoly on being spanked :tongue: - but WOT will be judged as an epic tale of good and evil, mixing mythologies and histories to create an immersive altnernate Universe. The question of sexism IMHO should at most be relegated to a footnote.

 

It would be totally different, of course, if WOT was supposed to be an optimal vision of how gender relations ought to function in our society, according to the author. But I don't think that it is a case, and that would not be a literary problem anyway.

Edited by PiotrekS
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I was never a fan of Egwene, in fact I really don't like her. Then I wondered what do other people think about her.

 

Honestly, I didn't have much opinion about her--that I can presently remember (it's been years. I started reading in jr. high in the previous MILLENNIUM).

She was interesting under Seanchan captivity.

I do know that once she got to Salidar her character kicked into gear for me. I loved all those AS chapters, and I really liked her character. Then she got her ass captured... Boo, so much for smarty pants. But shockingly, some of the best stuff happened under captivity. As an underdog Egwene was easy to root for, and really fun to read. She was a refreshing breath in a stuffy Tower. She was saying things AE didn't have the courage to say, she was uniting and fortifying. It was Anne of Green Gables all over the place, with our little sweetheart worming her way into cold hearts.

Then she won. Suddenly, and surprisingly she quickly became unbearable to read, or empathize with. The determination and resolve that got her to the top and made her so amazing before now turned into something else. I don't know exactly what it is, but it probably has to do with me choosing to side with Rand in the story and also realizing that the White Tower (having read so much about the actual AS organization in the last books) was a relic. In fact I've come to believe that the AS are not only negligent but possibly harmful to the Light. What good are Green sisters who the author has given no indication can fight. Where is the great mobilization of sisters for TG? Egwene (as shown to us) has failed utterly in her first days as Amyrlin (of a united Tower) to do anything to prepare the sisters for TG.

 

Yes, she neutralized Mesaana, and killed some BA, but many BA escaped the Purge. Mostly, it seems to me that the only AS that believe TG is literally a week away are the ones outside TV. Presently Egwene is very must inside TV in so many ways and it's disappointing and annoying. Seeing Egwene somehow become the epitome of the very things she tried to change about AS and the Tower is unbearable.

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I don't understand the problem with nudity. I think the sexualized view of it some fans have just goes to show what type of society we live in. I think back on classical Greece and how the male form was celebrated, how athletes performed nude and how it was depicted in artwork everywhere (same goes for the art of the renaissance era). It was a symbol of power and their masculinity. The nude secret ceremonies isn't supposed to be sexual, but an expression of feminine power and pretty much rejects the idea of any men being involved, as they would thus be exposed for what they are.

 

As for Egwene in particular, she'd only been Amyrlin of the whole Tower for less than a week when Rand shows up, right? And then after that only a month passes. I don't see why everyone expects her to be instituting major reforms in how the Tower works (she's actually already made some in how new novices are selected and organized) in that short amount of time, particularly with the Last Battle approaching and Rand's sudden announcement that he's going to break the last seals on the prison. That announcement alone is something I can certainly see her opposing (it must sound incredibly crazy, fans need to take a step back here). Not only has all reports of Rand been about him being rash, quick to anger and incredibly eccentric; not only has she always viewed him as something of a 'woolhead', but that sounds crazy in and of itself. I agree she could come up with an alternate plan, but to be honest she likely wants to focus on coming up with one, but the month (just one short month) that passes is spent on creating an alliance to oppose him, to hopefully give him pause and see that he can't just rush into it and should come to a multilateral consensus rather than a unilateral decision (which WAS Lews Therin's problem the first time, which resulted in the Breaking, by the way).

 

I think her character could have been better written and more consistent with KoD and tGS Egwene; a lot of it, though not all, probably has to do with Sanderson taking over.

Edited by Agitel
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I was never a fan of Egwene, in fact I really don't like her. Then I wondered what do other people think about her.

Honestly, I didn't have much opinion about her--that I can presently remember (it's been years. I started reading in jr. high in the previous MILLENNIUM).

She was interesting under Seanchan captivity.

I do know that once she got to Salidar her character kicked into gear for me. I loved all those AS chapters, and I really liked her character. Then she got her ass captured... Boo, so much for smarty pants. But shockingly, some of the best stuff happened under captivity. As an underdog Egwene was easy to root for, and really fun to read. She was a refreshing breath in a stuffy Tower. She was saying things AE didn't have the courage to say, she was uniting and fortifying. It was Anne of Green Gables all over the place, with our little sweetheart worming her way into cold hearts.

Then she won. Suddenly, and surprisingly she quickly became unbearable to read, or empathize with. The determination and resolve that got her to the top and made her so amazing before now turned into something else. I don't know exactly what it is, but it probably has to do with me choosing to side with Rand in the story and also realizing that the White Tower (having read so much about the actual AS organization in the last books) was a relic. In fact I've come to believe that the AS are not only negligent but possibly harmful to the Light. What good are Green sisters who the author has given no indication can fight. Where is the great mobilization of sisters for TG? Egwene (as shown to us) has failed utterly in her first days as Amyrlin (of a united Tower) to do anything to prepare the sisters for TG.

 

Yes, she neutralized Mesaana, and killed some BA, but many BA escaped the Purge. Mostly, it seems to me that the only AS that believe TG is literally a week away are the ones outside TV. Presently Egwene is very must inside TV in so many ways and it's disappointing and annoying. Seeing Egwene somehow become the epitome of the very things she tried to change about AS and the Tower is unbearable.

This is what makes the sexism of many of the women in WoT more than simply irritating to me; not only are they female chauvinists but they are also startlingly incompetent. I suspect Egwene generates such a degree of negative passion because she falls below the standard many readers would ideally wish her to be having spent so long with her on her journey. She both demonstrates her sexism on a personal level as well as in passion as the leader of an organisation is just a more extreme mirror of its members. I can’t speak for anyone else but I find myself resenting any presumption by the WT to authority because of it’s incompetence and hypocrisy. Perhaps it did serve a use in the past but yes, in the era of the Dragon Reborn it has become a relic.

 

One of the Egwene sections that stand out in my mind:

 

Egwene blinked a single time. "Yes. I had heard rumours of this. I had hoped that they were exaggerated. Did this Asha'man say who gave Rand permission to commit such an atrocity?"

“He’s the Dragon Reborn,” Siuan said, grimacing. “I don’t think he feels he needs permission. But, in his defence, it appears he didn’t know it was happening. The women his men bonded were sent by Elaida to destroy the Black Tower.”

“Yes.” Egwene finally showed a sliver of emotion. “So the rumours are accurate. All too accurate.” Her beautiful dress retained its shape, but bled to a deep brown in color, like Aiel clothing. Egwene didn’t seem to notice the change. “Will Elaida’s reign of disasters never cease?”

Siuan just shook her head. “We’ve been offered forty-seven Asha’man to bond as restitution, of sorts, for the women al’Thor’s men bonded. Hardly a fair trade, but the Hall decided to accept the offer nonetheless.”

“As well they should have,” Egwene said. “Well shall have to deal with the Dragon’s foolishness at a later date. Perhaps his men acted without his direct orders, but Rand must take responsibility. Men. Bonding women!”

 

No comment on the presumption that it's the WT has the right to continue to act unilaterally in it's pursuit of men who can channel. No comment on the fact that the women were sent to summarily execute the men captured. No ownership of that attempted mass-murder that was illegal even by WT law.

 

So because 47 (I can’t remember the exact number) women were raped/now raped repeatedly by the male to female bond you will accept the continuous rape of 47 men as restitution. Brilliant.

 

Ending with a not unexpected sexist remark.

 

*

 

... ...

hopefully give him pause and see that he can't just rush into it and should come to a multilateral consensus rather than a unilateral decision (which WAS Lews Therin's problem the first time, which resulted in the Breaking, by the way).

 

...

 

I'm not sure that it was unilateral the first time: There were two solutions to containing the Dark One that for some inadequate reason were divided in support by gender. It was only after the female Aes Sedai plan was ruined, with the Choedan Kal ter'angreal access keys lost to the shadow and the near defeat of the Light that LTT proceeded with his plan. LTT was the highest ranking general of the Light and I believe he also held the title of First (the highest political position among the Aes Sedai governing council).

Edited by Seeker Matt
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This is what makes the sexism of many of the women in WoT more than simply irritating to me; not only are they female chauvinists but they are also startlingly incompetent. I suspect Egwene generates such a degree of negative passion because she falls below the standard many readers would ideally wish her to be having spent so long with her on her journey. She both demonstrates her sexism on a personal level as well as in passion as the leader of an organisation is just a more extreme mirror of its members. I can’t speak for anyone else but I find myself resenting any presumption by the WT to authority because of it’s incompetence and hypocrisy. Perhaps it did serve a use in the past but yes, in the era of the Dragon Reborn it has become a relic.

This is actually why I think the White Tower and the concept of Aes Sedai in general is in for a major ass-kicking in AMoL. The way they act and treat other people is so obviously a hypocrisy and exercise in incompetence that I can't see it being unintentionally written. Therefore, I sincerely hope that RJ had a dramatic reshaping of the concept of Aes Sedai in mind when he planned the last book.

 

If he didn't, I might just throw my copy of AMoL against a wall (Aes Sedai piss me off).

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Brandon actually commented that Egwene was mostly RJ in TGS. I think it's on the Egwene page (interview database).

 

 

Looks like i was right (i am seldom wrong) Sanderson cannot write egwene. Just like he can't write mat or aviendha. Not his fault i suppose but it just shows that gap in story telling between robert jordan and BS not to mention the lack of consistency.

 

 

I am probably the biggest Egwene fan on this site but i will be the first to admit that the egwene in TOM feels a bit....dickish i suppose. I cannot believe i said this. :biggrin: I am becoming too soft. But still it is not her fault. Like i said. If egwene was dickish in books 11 and 12 then i will have no problems in accepting her dickish moves in book 13 as character faults.It boggles the mind that she has no problems in freeing logain (when saidin was still tainted) in book 6 when the rest of the aes sedai were thinking of gentling him and yet somehow putting the blame of bonded aes sedai on the doorsteps of rand. It does not make any sense.

Edited by Elan Tedronai
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Brandon actually commented that Egwene was mostly RJ in TGS. I think it's on the Egwene page (interview database).

 

 

Looks like i was right (i am seldom wrong) Sanderson cannot write egwene. Just like he can't write mat or aviendha. Not his fault i suppose but it just shows that gap in story telling between robert jordan and BS not to mention the lack of consistency.

 

While I doubt it will change your opinion, I think it's highly improbable that the living person best able to determine whether or not a character is 'in-character' or written correctly is you, and not Harriet(who has no known issues with how BS is writing the series, and given that she is the editor, I highly doubt she has any issues with it).

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I am probably the biggest Egwene fan on this site but i will be the first to admit that the egwene in TOM feels a bit....dickish i suppose. I cannot believe i said this. :biggrin: I am becoming too soft. But still it is not her fault. Like i said. If egwene was dickish in books 11 and 12 then i will have no problems in accepting her dickish moves in book 13 as character faults.It boggles the mind that she has no problems in freeing logain (when saidin was still tainted) in book 6 when the rest of the aes sedai were thinking of gentling him and yet somehow putting the blame of bonded aes sedai on the doorsteps of rand. It does not make any sense.

Egwene's always blamed men for everything from the start of the series, and especially Rand. It's totally in character for her.

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Guest PiotrekS

Well, if Egwene in TGS is RJ's and in ToM is Brandon's, then IMO it is a first time I know of that Brandon definitely improved a character RJ had created.

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personally i don't like her much she has a few moments that i like, but overall she is an arrogant, hypocritical, wanna be know it all.

 

her attack on Ny in the dreamworld. when Mat saves them in Tear and gets the backhand. than when Mat arrives in the LT to get Elayne and says he would help Egwene run.. she just thinks of a way to manipulate him instead of talking to him. yet even after he is the one that defends her honor by having his men bow and call her Mother. Elaida wants to have women all kiss her ring and swear feality and it's wrong, yet Egwene did it and it's ok. it's wrong for Asha'man to bind Aes Sedai yet its ok the other way around. even after learning more that the male half is cleansed.

 

AS tried to control Rand and all their attempts had shown bad results. as Suian said he must be allowed free reign to accomplish the prophecies. yet here she is all-knowing telling Rand she knows better than him. that breaking the seals is wrong. meanwhile ignorant Perrin ( same Perrin that made her look stupid in the Dream World w/ his abilities. again she knew better than Perrin yet she was wrong. ) agrees w/ Rand's idea. Ny agrees w/ Rand.

 

she needs to be brought down a few pegs for her own good. she started on this path to help Rand and save the boys, that seems to be forgotten. she is not the savior of the world, Rand is.

 

heys Mr Ares how goes it long time no see. :wink:

To say something a little different to the usual run of Egwene threads, I would just like to point out that Egwene is arguably more heroic than Rand. Allow me to explain: Rand was forced into a bad situation. So was Mat, so was Perrin. They are ta'veren, the Pattern bends around them. They are forced by the Wheel to take on specific roles, which they can't really run from. They didn't choose them. As was pointed out in TGS, they might not have control over what they do, but they do over why. They are, therefore, simply constrained to make the best of a bad situation. Egwene, on the other hand, chose to become AS, chose to study with the Aiel, chose not to simply be a puppet of the Hall and to assert herself. She is, therefore, someone who chose to put herself into a bad situation. Rand had to be forced into his role, Egwene didn't. To put it another way, which would you consider to be more heroic: someone who is trapped in a burning building and rescues someone they stumble across on their way out, or someone who enters a burning building deliberately, and with the intention of saving someone? Rand is the former, Egwene is the latter.

who is to say she chose anything. why couldn't she be pulled into the weaving of the pattern around Rand. she needed to be put on the right path. she joins Rand who happens to have Moraine there to help her when she starts to channel. she happens to be in the stone of tear where she finds out about DreamWalkers. she happens to be out of the WT when rebellion happens thus she cannot be tied to either faction, and so can be a good candidate for Amryllin. Perrin, Mat, Rand all have choices. they seen the results of those other choices when they did the direct travel using the portal stone. Egwene was set on her path not done by choice.
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I never liked her, which doesn't have a lot to do with her being a woman, but a lot with her being Egwene. I just can't stand her type of character. She's far too much a political creature. Kissing the butts of her superiors until she gets promoted past them and then she starts kicking them into submission if they don't allow themselves to be controlled. Problem is that in her own mind she has become the supreme being in the world as Amyrlin. There are no longer any butts to kiss, but all of mankind and to a lesser extent womankind to kick.

 

She has a hunger for absolute control, which is why I hope the Asha'man remain politically independant from the Aes Sedai for as long as possible. That way her and Logain will neutralize each other hopefully until the world realizes that channellers have no place in politics. They are too powerful and they live too long, they can't help but look down on the regular humans and their guidance is misguided more often than not.

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Well, if Egwene in TGS is RJ's and in ToM is Brandon's, then IMO it is a first time I know of that Brandon definitely improved a character RJ had created.

 

 

sorry but egwene in TOM is not an improvement. Infact it's worse. In TGS and KOD she was firm but gentle even in the midst of imprisonment.

 

In TOM she was extremely hard. She reminded me of the early rand days of TSR

Edited by Elan Tedronai
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This is what makes the sexism of many of the women in WoT more than simply irritating to me; not only are they female chauvinists but they are also startlingly incompetent. I suspect Egwene generates such a degree of negative passion because she falls below the standard many readers would ideally wish her to be having spent so long with her on her journey. She both demonstrates her sexism on a personal level as well as in passion as the leader of an organisation is just a more extreme mirror of its members. I can’t speak for anyone else but I find myself resenting any presumption by the WT to authority because of it’s incompetence and hypocrisy. Perhaps it did serve a use in the past but yes, in the era of the Dragon Reborn it has become a relic.

This is actually why I think the White Tower and the concept of Aes Sedai in general is in for a major ass-kicking in AMoL. The way they act and treat other people is so obviously a hypocrisy and exercise in incompetence that I can't see it being unintentionally written. Therefore, I sincerely hope that RJ had a dramatic reshaping of the concept of Aes Sedai in mind when he planned the last book.

 

If he didn't, I might just throw my copy of AMoL against a wall (Aes Sedai piss me off).

The White Tower isn't incompetent. It's a bureaucracy. A well-run bureaucracy can do very well for an extended period of time, routinely handling situations that arise and processing them and moving on to the next issue. However, a bureaucracy tends to do very poorly when its hit with a serious crisis; a bureaucracy isn't very nimble. In a time of crisis, a bureaucracy cannot act as business as usual, they need someone who is willing to change or modify procedures, to alter or break the rules. They need someone who says "This is the crisis we're facing. This is how we're going to reorient ourselves to deal with it."

 

Egwene may yet reinvent herself to be such a person, but she is not there at the moment. At the moment, she's happily buried under 3,000 years of bureaucratic inertia.

 

Finally, just because there's an easily visible oncoming train doesn't mean that anyone is going to do anything about it. In fact, until the moment it hits, people will argue about whether or not there's a train, and that even if there is a train that the train can't possibly harm them. Just look at our own society: we're at peak oil or thereabouts, and instead of saying "Hmm, maybe we should stop building sprawling cities that require personal internal combustion engines to navigate, and instead start working on switching over to more mass transportation, electric vehicles, building cities vertically rather than horizontally, and replacing fossil fuel power plants with nuclear, solar, wind and hydro." There's only been one political leader in North America who's made a serious attempt to address sustainability, and he only had one term as President before being tossed out for going on about the malaise affecting America.

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Guest PiotrekS

Well, if Egwene in TGS is RJ's and in ToM is Brandon's, then IMO it is a first time I know of that Brandon definitely improved a character RJ had created.

 

 

sorry but egwene in TOM is not an improvement. Infact it's worse. In TGS and KOD she was firm but gentle even in the midst of imprisonment.

 

In TOM she was extremely hard. She reminded me of the early rand days of TSR

 

For me Egwene in TGS was too perfect, too Mary Sue-ish. It was like RJ thought what would be the best thing to do in every situation and made Egwene do it, regardless of whether it was plausible story-wise. There were absolutely no limitations, no handicaps for her in TGS - her young age was not the problem in her gaining leadership (and it should have been, regardless of her competences. It is just sociological realism), she suddenly became a genius in weaving flows (she has always been good, but never that good - especially since she abandoned her Aes Sedai training to concentrate on Dreaming), all characters surrounding her lost 90% of their IQ to make her shine brighter etc.

 

TGS was in a way one huge eulogy of Egwene. I, as a reader, felt almost forced by the author to love and admire her. The writing was too simplistic, too straightforward- the author almost resigned from his usual good practice of simply describing characters' actions and allowing readers to make up their own minds. Instead he simply said: she is great, perfect, strong, fair, talented etc.

 

So, Egwene in ToM is more real to me - you can't have characters that are 100% perfect, don't make mistakes etc. There must be consequences - e.g. a typical consequence of being a "strong leader" is that you sometimes alienate people close to you, typical consequence of young age is that you lack experience in many things etc. (I have in mind an example of Egwene and relationships - she is simply clueless how to behave towards Gawyn, and so is he. And it makes sense, when we look at them in all the books).

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Brandon actually commented that Egwene was mostly RJ in TGS. I think it's on the Egwene page (interview database).

Looks like i was right (i am seldom wrong) Sanderson cannot write egwene. Just like he can't write mat or aviendha. Not his fault i suppose but it just shows that gap in story telling between robert jordan and BS not to mention the lack of consistency.

While I doubt it will change your opinion, I think it's highly improbable that the living person best able to determine whether or not a character is 'in-character' or written correctly is you, and not Harriet(who has no known issues with how BS is writing the series, and given that she is the editor, I highly doubt she has any issues with it).

I fail to see why Harriet's opinion on this should automatically be considered more valid than Elan Tedronai's, or anyone elses.

 

 

To say something a little different to the usual run of Egwene threads, I would just like to point out that Egwene is arguably more heroic than Rand. Allow me to explain: Rand was forced into a bad situation. So was Mat, so was Perrin. They are ta'veren, the Pattern bends around them. They are forced by the Wheel to take on specific roles, which they can't really run from. They didn't choose them. As was pointed out in TGS, they might not have control over what they do, but they do over why. They are, therefore, simply constrained to make the best of a bad situation. Egwene, on the other hand, chose to become AS, chose to study with the Aiel, chose not to simply be a puppet of the Hall and to assert herself. She is, therefore, someone who chose to put herself into a bad situation. Rand had to be forced into his role, Egwene didn't. To put it another way, which would you consider to be more heroic: someone who is trapped in a burning building and rescues someone they stumble across on their way out, or someone who enters a burning building deliberately, and with the intention of saving someone? Rand is the former, Egwene is the latter.

who is to say she chose anything. why couldn't she be pulled into the weaving of the pattern around Rand. she needed to be put on the right path. she joins Rand who happens to have Moraine there to help her when she starts to channel. she happens to be in the stone of tear where she finds out about DreamWalkers. she happens to be out of the WT when rebellion happens thus she cannot be tied to either faction, and so can be a good candidate for Amryllin. Perrin, Mat, Rand all have choices. they seen the results of those other choices when they did the direct travel using the portal stone. Egwene was set on her path not done by choice.
Who is to say Egwene chose anything? By the same token, who is to say she didn't? Her choices could all be the result of ta'maral'ailen, but is there any evidence to suggest that is the case?
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