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[johthohar]

"Oh, by the by, let Egwene know that I need that Horn of Valere back. You know...cuz well...everybody knows that its been found and I sounded it and stuff. Cheerio and good day to ya."

 

I like Brandon Sanderson and his works with the WoT as well as his other projects like Mistborn or the new Stormlight Archive series...... But if Mat ever says "cheerio" I will hunt him down and rip off his fingernails one at a time. Or maybe his toenails. He could still type easily that way.

[MichaelDWatson]

 

 

I listened to Towers of Midnight from audible.com and its bugged me ever since I heard it why nobody reacted when Perrin revealed the Horn of Valere had been found and sounded. I thought there would be a gasp from the crowd. I just don't get how it's become such common knowledge.

 

I know I might be focusing too much on this, but there was a whole book in the series nearly dedicated to it. No POV's notice Hunters for the Horn anymore and if its such common knowledge now...why is Mat still so secretive about it. Has it become inconsequential in the scope of things? The bigger picture? Why doesn't Mat just tell Joline, Teslyn and Edisina that he was coming to Tar Valon to reclaim it other than back-handedly threatening that the Tower has something that belongs to him and hes coming to get it.

 

"Oh, by the by, let Egwene know that I need that Horn of Valere back. You know...cuz well...everybody knows that its been found and I sounded it and stuff. Cheerio and good day to ya."

 

I don't think people would be very surprised to hear that the horn has been found. They're dealing with bubbles of evil on frequent basis, it's widely known that the Dragon has been reborn in truth...anyone in the Westlands who doesn't believe the Last Battle is imminent is flat out in denial. Or living under a rock that hasn't come alive. Revelation of the Horn being found a few years ago would have been shocking; now it's more like telling someone you broke her favorite platter and then adding that it actually shattered into six pieces and not five.

 

Who blew the horn, though, isn't very widely-known at all -- and Mat's smart to keep it that way. He learned in TDR that his life would be in danger if that secret were to get out because many on both sides might prefer someone else blowing the Horn at the last battle. Only a few people actually know he's the Hornsounder. Egwene would know right away what he meant. He could also have likely been assuming that any other Amyrlin (since he wasn't sure it was Egwene) would at least know the Tower had possession of the Horn, and possibly that he had blown it. I wouldn't blame him for not wanting Joline to know about his connection the Horn. She's interested in him too much for his liking as it is.

 

 

I can follow that logic, but I'm just not buying it. No offense to you as I've heard all the reasoning and I've read around on other boards and I seem to be the only one with this issue. Look, I can put up with Mat and how he reads not quite being right...I forgave Warders blatantly disappearing in TGS...I can for go plot-lines being tied up and put to rest in just a couple of paragraphs...I wasn't offended by Asmodean's killer being revealed in such an off handed manner...but this bugs me and I can't seem to get my hands around why it bugs me so much. I suppose there's bigger fish to fry.

 

But the HoV being revealed and not even an eye brow being arched...somebody looking "pole-axed"...everybody just took it in stride. Could we have, at the very least, "as Perrin left the pavillion, he could here the whispers...the Horn of Valere has been found"

[johthohar]

But the HoV being revealed and not even an eye brow being arched...somebody looking "pole-axed"...everybody just took it in stride. Could we have, at the very least, "as Perrin left the pavillion, he could here the whispers...the Horn of Valere has been found"

 

I think it's likely that news of the horn being sounded has reached much of the continent by this point and that is why it isn't very remarkable to the group at large. There were plenty of witnesses at Falme to carry the news elsewhere. Just because we haven't heard the populace talking about it on screen doesn't mean they are ignorant of it to begin with.

[AutomatedTeller]

Why is Galad's last name Damodred, but Gawyn's is Trakand? I get why Elayne is Trakand - why is Gawyn?

[Declan]

Galad is not Morgase's son - he is her stepson. Galad had already been born by the time Morgase had agreed to marry Taringail. Therefore he always kept his paternal last name. So that is why his last name is Damodred. He is at least 4 years older than Elayne and Gawyn i believe.

[waffle]

Why is Galad's last name Damodred, but Gawyn's is Trakand? I get why Elayne is Trakand - why is Gawyn?

 

Taringail married into house Trakand. I think some Cairhienin noble even whined about it.

[Sharaman]

But the HoV being revealed and not even an eye brow being arched...somebody looking "pole-axed"...everybody just took it in stride. Could we have, at the very least, "as Perrin left the pavillion, he could here the whispers...the Horn of Valere has been found"

 

I think it's likely that news of the horn being sounded has reached much of the continent by this point and that is why it isn't very remarkable to the group at large. There were plenty of witnesses at Falme to carry the news elsewhere. Just because we haven't heard the populace talking about it on screen doesn't mean they are ignorant of it to begin with.

In a rather uncharacteristic moment at the end of TDR, Moiraine talks about it with Rhuarc and the wondergirls as witnesses.

When the Stone is attacked, a fade addresses Mat as "Hornsounder".

Several AS were involved in healing him.

I think it would reasonable to assume that a fair number of people spread across several groups (Light/ dark AS, Aiel) know about it.

[Guest Skoberget]

In what chapter is the 13x13 Tarna thing? I don't even remember reading it...

[Val Mickey]

But the HoV being revealed and not even an eye brow being arched...somebody looking "pole-axed"...everybody just took it in stride. Could we have, at the very least, "as Perrin left the pavillion, he could here the whispers...the Horn of Valere has been found"

 

I think it's likely that news of the horn being sounded has reached much of the continent by this point and that is why it isn't very remarkable to the group at large. There were plenty of witnesses at Falme to carry the news elsewhere. Just because we haven't heard the populace talking about it on screen doesn't mean they are ignorant of it to begin with.

In a rather uncharacteristic moment at the end of TDR, Moiraine talks about it with Rhuarc and the wondergirls as witnesses.

When the Stone is attacked, a fade addresses Mat as "Hornsounder".

Several AS were involved in healing him.

I think it would reasonable to assume that a fair number of people spread across several groups (Light/ dark AS, Aiel) know about it.

 

I don't think the Children believed anything Perrin said. Except that there was a battle and that the Dragon Reborn fought it.

 

@Skoberget - Well it isn't said right out that Tarna has been 13ed, but taking her recent change in behaviour and her eyes, and the same thing happening to Mezar (Nezar? Nazar? not sure), and the fact that Mr. Sanderson said that the 13 trick was a narrative obligation (or some such)

and the fact that something is wrong at the Black Tower... Sometimes we add 2 and 2, but doubt whether 4 is really 4. There are some who would argue that 4 is actually 5, and some that 2 and 2 cannot be added, and some that RJ never mentioned 2 twice in the same sentence.

[blazetheearth]

In what chapter is the 13x13 Tarna thing? I don't even remember reading it...

 

Chapter 53 'Gateways' is where we see Pevara talking to Tarna, and her reaction to Tarna's attitude and appearance, and we see Pevara thinking about how Tarna agreed with her last night but now Tarna has done a complete 180 and agrees with Javindhra (whom we know is black, IIRC) about staying at the BT. Also the big difference in the personality of Mezar in Ch 56 'Something Wrong', Norely says that it not really Mezar. He claims it has Mezar's face, Mezar's memories, and talks like Mezar, but the smile is wrong, all wrong. This is amolst the exact same description that we see for Tarna. This leads many to believe that they have been 13x13'ed and turned to serve the Shadow. There is not a direct reference to it where BS comes out and shows us a scene with 13 DL's + 13 Fades in a room turning someone, but the description of these two characters leads toward that conclusion. RJ had said that the 13x13 thing did not 'bind' one to the Shadow, just sort of inverts the personality, making all of the sadistic and hateful impulses come to the forefront, while subsuming those thoughts and emotions that would reflect the Light (i.e.: love, compassion, etc.).

 

Hope that helps.

[AutomatedTeller]

Galad is not Morgase's son - he is her stepson. Galad had already been born by the time Morgase had agreed to marry Taringail. Therefore he always kept his paternal last name. So that is why his last name is Damodred. He is at least 4 years older than Elayne and Gawyn i believe.

 

Why isn't Galad's last name Mantear, though? His mom was the Daughter-heir, no?

 

Or why isn't Gawyn's Damodred?

[moratcorlm]

Well, we're told that Taringail married into House Trakand after Morgase took the throne, so their children are Trakands. It would be logical to assume that the opposite happened in his previous marriage, probably because Damodred was the stronger house; he accepted marrying into Trakand to further his own ambition, which otherwise would be dashed.

[Val Mickey]

Well, we're told that Taringail married into House Trakand after Morgase took the throne, so their children are Trakands. It would be logical to assume that the opposite happened in his previous marriage, probably because Damodred was the stronger house; he accepted marrying into Trakand to further his own ambition, which otherwise would be dashed.

 

Mantear and Damodred were both ruling houses at the time of Tigraine's marriage. It is possible that Damodred was the stronger house, but it is unlikely since Laman felt the need to cut down Avendesora, and also because Taringail married into Trakand (who was not the strongest house at the time). I also feel that Andor has been stronger than Cairhien for the last few decades, so that as far as ruling houses were concerned, Mantear was in a better position. Nothing is mentioned outright, but that's how it comes through.

 

What I feel (also completely unbacked by canon) is that when Tigraine disappeared, Taringail got Galad to become a Damodred (quite easy since he's about 5?) so that Galad could 'inherit' the Sun Throne.

[Random Man]

In what chapter is the 13x13 Tarna thing? I don't even remember reading it...

 

Chapter 53 'Gateways' is where we see Pevara talking to Tarna, and her reaction to Tarna's attitude and appearance, and we see Pevara thinking about how Tarna agreed with her last night but now Tarna has done a complete 180 and agrees with Javindhra (whom we know is black, IIRC) about staying at the BT. Also the big difference in the personality of Mezar in Ch 56 'Something Wrong', Norely says that it not really Mezar. He claims it has Mezar's face, Mezar's memories, and talks like Mezar, but the smile is wrong, all wrong. This is amolst the exact same description that we see for Tarna. This leads many to believe that they have been 13x13'ed and turned to serve the Shadow. There is not a direct reference to it where BS comes out and shows us a scene with 13 DL's + 13 Fades in a room turning someone, but the description of these two characters leads toward that conclusion. RJ had said that the 13x13 thing did not 'bind' one to the Shadow, just sort of inverts the personality, making all of the sadistic and hateful impulses come to the forefront, while subsuming those thoughts and emotions that would reflect the Light (i.e.: love, compassion, etc.).

 

Hope that helps.

AFAIK we don't "Know" that Javindhra is Black. She is suspected by the Rabid Fans (including me) to be Black, though, but there's been no confirmation of it.

 

Obviously Something happened to Tarna that was the same thing that happened to Mezar. Both of these characters underwent some change that made them act markedly differently around those familiar with them. And it was creepy. It's entirely consistent with what RJ told us happens with 13x13 as Ishadar described quite well -- although someone who is 13x13'd WILL serve the DO once the deed is done.

[lsm]

So, my question is: how many even slightly important lightside characters have been killed in this series?

Hopper :(

[Ataxia]

[blazetheearth]

AFAIK we don't "Know" that Javindhra is Black. She is suspected by the Rabid Fans (including me) to be Black, though, but there's been no confirmation of it.

 

Obviously Something happened to Tarna that was the same thing that happened to Mezar. Both of these characters underwent some change that made them act markedly differently around those familiar with them. And it was creepy. It's entirely consistent with what RJ told us happens with 13x13 as Ishadar described quite well -- although someone who is 13x13'd WILL serve the DO once the deed is done.

 

You are right, I had thought that she was on Verin's list and mentioned in reference to that when Eggy is discussing the Blacks that left the WT or later when she is considering the fact that the Reds had replaced their Sitters, but I couldn't find any reference to her to quote. I agree that BA was definitely the impression that most have gotten, and that you are absolutely correct in that we do not "know" it for sure.

 

I was incorrect in my memory of that. Thank you for pointing it out.

 

On a side note, but similar topic. The WOT FAQ states that Mezar is one of those that bonded AS when Elaida's group was sent to destroy the BT. Any thoughts on what happens to a person bonded to a channeler that has been 13x13'ed? And especially when the person bonded is also a channeler? So what happened to the AS bonded to Mezar?

 

I mean, during the AoL, when (we must assume) the 13x13 process was discovered, they had no concept of something like the Warder bond. So this is something of which even the Forsaken can't have full knowledge. It will be something to look for in AMoL.

 

Pulled from WoT FAQ (click link to see page)

 

 

] Mezar Kurin[/b] Asha’man of Logain’s faction who bonded a non-Darkfriend Aes Sedai, something Taim does not approve of or permit in his followers.

[Mulk]

Anaiya Sedai

Ingtar Shinowa

Vandene and Adeleas

Jain Farstrider

Hopper, who has died twice and is gone for good.

Yoli (or whatever his name is, the guy in Maradon who brought Ituralde and his army into the city)

Verin Mathwin

Reanne Corly

 

Really, you could throw quite a few people in there. Just because the character didn't have a large part of the plot of the whole work doesn't mean they didn't have something important to do. As an example, Anaiya is the whole reason Egwene found out she is a dreamer. It was her thought that Egwene might be that led to Verin giving her the Dreaming ter'angreal, which has writ itself across the whole of the plot.

 

That's just a few people whom we have followed in some form or fashion that had an effect on what has happened and then died. Heck, you could even throw Mat and Aviendha into that list. They died, and (IMO) it was their deaths that threw Rand into the rage that led to him balefiring Rahvin so hard he undid their deaths.

[Tsunami]

Anaiya Sedai

Ingtar Shinowa

Vandene and Adeleas

Jain Farstrider

Hopper, who has died twice and is gone for good.

Yoli (or whatever his name is, the guy in Maradon who brought Ituralde and his army into the city)

Verin Mathwin

Reanne Corly

 

Really, you could throw quite a few people in there. Just because the character didn't have a large part of the plot of the whole work doesn't mean they didn't have something important to do. As an example, Anaiya is the whole reason Egwene found out she is a dreamer. It was her thought that Egwene might be that led to Verin giving her the Dreaming ter'angreal, which has writ itself across the whole of the plot.

 

That's just a few people whom we have followed in some form or fashion that had an effect on what has happened and then died. Heck, you could even throw Mat and Aviendha into that list. They died, and (IMO) it was their deaths that threw Rand into the rage that led to him balefiring Rahvin so hard he undid their deaths.

 

Tylin Mitsobar.

Harrid Fel

 

Rarely do you see original members of the 'Fellowship' bite the dust. One of the reason I really like Martin's ASoIaF. Everybody dies in those books. Everybody.

[moratcorlm]

Geofram Bornhald, Aram, Masema, Pedron Niall, Eamon Valda, Carlinya, Turak, Renna, Meilan, Couladin, Nalesean, Colavaere, Nicola, Rhadam Asunawa, Eben Hopwil, Fedwin Morr, Lopin, Sareitha, Nesta din Reas, Daigian, and Rolan, among more than bit characters. Plenty of bit characters, too.

 

And Asmodean, if you want to count him.

[johthohar]

Rarely do you see original members of the 'Fellowship' bite the dust. One of the reason I really like Martin's ASoIaF. Everybody dies in those books. Everybody.

 

Great... Thanks for RUINING IT!!!!!!!!............

 

 

 

jerk

[Durinax]

mats leiutenant that get his throat ripped out by teh gholam

[capuga]

Geofram Bornhald, Aram, Masema, Pedron Niall, Eamon Valda, Carlinya, Turak, Renna, Meilan, Couladin, Nalesean, Colavaere, Nicola, Rhadam Asunawa, Eben Hopwil, Fedwin Morr, Lopin, Sareitha, Nesta din Reas, Daigian, and Rolan, among more than bit characters. Plenty of bit characters, too.

 

And Asmodean, if you want to count him.

 

Not sure I would consider these "good" guys even if they were not sworn to the shadow. Might include Pedron Niall in that group also. We see he has good intentions and is more open-minded than most Whitecloaks but he still sent troops throughout the land to commit mass-murder as "Dragonsworn" to rally people to his cause. Even if I agreed with his end goal I don't know that the ends justifies those means.

[moratcorlm]

I don't disagree, but the question was about "lightside" characters, so there you be.

[Tsunami]

Rarely do you see original members of the 'Fellowship' bite the dust. One of the reason I really like Martin's ASoIaF. Everybody dies in those books. Everybody.

 

Great... Thanks for RUINING IT!!!!!!!!............

 

 

 

jerk

Well, nearly everyone dies. The dwarf seems to be hanging in there.

 

Feel better now?