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DRAGONMOUNT

A WHEEL OF TIME COMMUNITY

moratcorlm

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    Elayne and Andor!

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  1. No, I was saying the opposite: that The Dragon would get the credit no matter what happens, even if his only role is to stand in Shayol Ghul being The Dragon while others perform whatever ritual is required to close the Bore until he keels over and bleeds on the rocks. I'm not advancing that theory, by the way; I honestly don't know what the resolution to that particular plot will be. I'm just saying that yoniy0's statement that "since Rand can't lead a Circle of three, it makes no sense for the climax of the series" is not necessarily ironclad.
  2. Well, certainly sound legal reasoning you have there. This does not follow. (Is this a version of divine right to you, since Rand is Jesus?)
  3. The entire shtick of WOT being "legend fades to myth", it wouldn't be too odd if the hero turned out not to be the hero after all, that Rand's role (while crucial) was a purely passive one.
  4. That seems unlikely. Remember that at the end of TGS Rand felt the barriers to his past lives breaking apart so that he had access to their memories, which sounds very like what happens to Heroes of the Horn in TAR. Either "the Wheel did it" a la the sky-fight at Falme or Rand having entered TAR unconsciously while awake seems the best explanation to me.
  5. ...which are both quite sexist. Just ask Egwene and Mat. Nor are any of the so-called 'anti-sexist' societies ever particularly internally consistent or well-explained, economically. Actually, I take that back: Far Madding is, as are the Sea Folk. Jordan always combined his sort of 19th, early 20th-century feminism (mixed with sexual-revolution ethics and the idea that every woman was in some way his wife) with a sizable wink at the reader. "Yeah, this is a ham-fisted allegory about real life injustices. But seriously, look what happens when you put broads into power." Which hardly goes unnoticed – either by the large number of people who loathe the series or by a decent fraction of those who love it (see any random Egwene thread).
  6. I do not believe Moiraine knew she would marry Thom until after Baerlon; Min sees images, not names. Thom probably tagged along for the same reason he helps Rand later in the book; he's extremely bitter about Aes Sedai and wants to offer what protection he can for the boys.
  7. This is untrue. While there are only a few fleeting references to male homosexuality in WOT, there are a number of lesbians, situationally or otherwise, particularly in the White Tower (though not all by any means; e.g. the relationship between Shalon and Ailil). I'm also unsure what you mean when you say "the Shaido camp was aloof with homosexual debauchery", leaving aside precisely what you intend by 'debauchery' and 'aloof'. Was there more than the one Maiden who slept with Arrela, and Therava? Quite so.
  8. How do you explain Min's viewings of Logain's great glory to come, then?
  9. I'm just saying that "Who other than the Sea Folk could build a ship to cross the Aryth Ocean?" is a more persuasive argument if it weren't immediately followed by an example of just that. Could the red-sailed ships in Seanchan have been made on the southern continent by male Sea Folk channelers? I suppose, but when we already have two non-Sea Folk examples of civilizations with modern levels of technology building trans-Aryth capable ships (i.e., Artur Hawkwing's empire and the Seanchan) it's hardly the inescapable conclusion. Perhaps – though I don't really think it's likely – they're Sharan ships who took the much shorter path east. Maybe they're even using ship designs copied from the Sharan invasion force Hawkwing sent a thousand years ago. Maybe they're Seanchan Navy locals, partisans of some lord or another, though that raises the question of specifically why the red sails were mentioned. There are lots of possibilities that don't lead down the road to the Land of the Madmen.
  10. But they haven't. There have been plenty of deaths on the side of the light. What you want is death of heavily characterized heroes, which is a completely different matter. You want shaggy dog stories, not drama but tragedy and very extensively built-up tragedy at that. What are you reading that hasn't had a single death? Just among Light-side characters who have had a known impact on the plot, we have Geofram Bornhald, Aram, Ingtar, Verin, Masema, Pedron Niall, Eamon Valda, Carlinya, Anaiya, Adeleas, Vandene, Turak, Renna, Asmodean, Meilan, Couladin, Nalesean, Colavaere, Nicola, Eben, Asunawa, Morr, Toram Riatin, Herid Fel, Lopin, Tylin, Reanne Corly, Jain Farstrider, Sareitha, Nesta din Reas, Daigian, Rolan, and Mishima. And I'm sure that all of them had their own hopes and dreams and ambitions and plans and full lives, but that simply doesn't matter because they're dead. And unless their death has a highly unusual role to play in the story, as Verin's did, that's reason enough to scrub them out of the way retroactively. The point of a closely subjective, limited-POV narrator is to induce empathy, and I don't think a lot of people get much of a kick out of having people with whom they empathize suddenly killed. Better by far to distance yourself from the dead. We can't do that retroactively with real people, of course, but in fiction the author is God, and can make the choice to be a helpful god who doesn't prey upon our empathy or a sociopathic one who manipulates it to cause frustration.
  11. More likely: Now that would have been an entertaining twist. WOT is more a character-driven story than a thematic one or a quest-based epic, and killing characters is kind of an insult to those who have invested time in watching them develop. That's why I'm not really a fan of ASOIAF despite the quality of writing; the first major death was excellent, and I assumed it was in the development of theme, but as the orgy of violence goes on the only real theme that's left is 'look how horrible it is that all these people are dying.' That doesn't really present many opportunities for escapism. The major character death in PON worked because it's much more traditionally epic in scope than WOT, and because it's fundamentally an examination of the character of Kellhus, while even the other major POV characters are secondary. I could go on with examples, but "bittersweet" is usually just "bitter" in the end. I don't want bittersweet.
  12. Like or dislike as you wish, but Elayne, Egwene, Perrin, Mat, and Nynaeve aren't secondary characters like Siuan is.
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