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This always bothered me. after elayne and nynaeve use need to find the Bowl of Winds in TAR, they can't find it again using need because "you can't have your cake and eat it too". Why can't they find it again by picturing "the dusty storeroom, with the iron chest, that has the BoW" or somesuch? 

This always bugged me.

(and why did they run outside the stairs, instead of just 'imagining' themselves on the roof, or in the front of the building, etc?)

 

Could a person who entered TAR in person travel to another TAR location the same way someone who dreamed into TAR can?

I'm guessing just to add tension and plot, but if you want to justify it I suppose need only works once, and describing a room isn't the same as knowing where it is, so that stopped them from finding it that way.

 

Egwene didn't know where the museum in the Panarch's palace was (or even the palace itself) in Tanchico, yet she was able to go there just from an illustration in a book. Need only works once, i got that. But if it was so important, they would remember enough of the dusty room to go back there.

 

They can remember every detail of the dusty room, but if they don't know where the room is to begin with, I guess that would be the problem in shifting there in TAR.  Maybe?  I dunno, just a guess.

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Actually this is something I've never understood.

 

Accepting that you can only find something once with need, why can't they 'need to find a ter'angreal warehouse' or similar instead of the ter'angreal itself.  If it takes them to the wrong one, they just keep a list 'need to find a ter'angreal warehouse, not this one...'

 

I could accept that they're unwilling to try because it's dangerous, and they're unaware of any immediate hurry (obviously they know it has to be done soon because of the weather, but as far as they know they have a few weeks), except the fact that Nyn has tried again means that it's a danger they're willing to accept.

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This always bothered me. after elayne and nynaeve use need to find the Bowl of Winds in TAR, they can't find it again using need because "you can't have your cake and eat it too". Why can't they find it again by picturing "the dusty storeroom, with the iron chest, that has the BoW" or somesuch? 

This always bugged me.

(and why did they run outside the stairs, instead of just 'imagining' themselves on the roof, or in the front of the building, etc?)

 

Could a person who entered TAR in person travel to another TAR location the same way someone who dreamed into TAR can?

I'm guessing just to add tension and plot, but if you want to justify it I suppose need only works once, and describing a room isn't the same as knowing where it is, so that stopped them from finding it that way.

 

Egwene didn't know where the museum in the Panarch's palace was (or even the palace itself) in Tanchico, yet she was able to go there just from an illustration in a book. Need only works once, i got that. But if it was so important, they would remember enough of the dusty room to go back there.

 

They can remember every detail of the dusty room, but if they don't know where the room is to begin with, I guess that would be the problem in shifting there in TAR.  Maybe?  I dunno, just a guess.

 

We've seen other examples that one does not need to know the precise location of a place to find it in TAR (Egwenes foray into Tanchico, is one).

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Also remember that this is Elayne and Nynaeve. They aren't very good in TaR. They aren't Dreamwalkers like Egwene. 

 

It's possible they aren't experienced enough to do anything beyond what they did. 

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In Towers of Midnight Egwene leaves a message in Nynaeve's dream summoning her to the White Tower.  She says 'Your dalliance threatens all.', and at this point Egwene has taken the three oaths on the oath rod so she must believe what she says it true, but I am struggling to think of anything that is threatened by Nynaeve not coming to the White Tower?  Whether or not Nynaeve has taken the Aes Sedai test and/or the oaths isn't really that importance in terms of the battle against the Shadow as far as I can see.

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I assume it has more to do with Nyn's apparant lack of respect for Eg/unwillingness to follow orders allows the other AS to disregard Eg to an extent as well.  Egs unusual position means that she needs all the AS to back her completely, Nyn as former Wisdom (over Eg) and her strength in the Power (and thus position in the AS hierarchy) means that Eg needs the AS to see that Eg (and not Rand) is 'in charge' of Nyn

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I assume it has more to do with Nyn's apparant lack of respect for Eg/unwillingness to follow orders allows the other AS to disregard Eg to an extent as well.  Egs unusual position means that she needs all the AS to back her completely, Nyn as former Wisdom (over Eg) and her strength in the Power (and thus position in the AS hierarchy) means that Eg needs the AS to see that Eg (and not Rand) is 'in charge' of Nyn

Thanks, I think I hadn't quite understood what she was referring to.  I still think its pretty overdramatic - Egwene has strong support from the rebels and the White Tower Aes Sedai at this point - I don't think Nynaeve taking the test is going to make or break her authority as Amyrlin.

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I assume it has more to do with Nyn's apparant lack of respect for Eg/unwillingness to follow orders allows the other AS to disregard Eg to an extent as well.  Egs unusual position means that she needs all the AS to back her completely, Nyn as former Wisdom (over Eg) and her strength in the Power (and thus position in the AS hierarchy) means that Eg needs the AS to see that Eg (and not Rand) is 'in charge' of Nyn

Thanks, I think I hadn't quite understood what she was referring to.  I still think its pretty overdramatic - Egwene has strong support from the rebels and the White Tower Aes Sedai at this point - I don't think Nynaeve taking the test is going to make or break her authority as Amyrlin.

 

 

I'm not sure it's the test as such.  Eg was surprised that Nyn said she was ready to take it.  Nyn's AS without the test, she doesn't need to take it, and in some ways I think her taking it weakens Egs position (although I'm glad she did, Nyn gained a lot from the test).  More the, Nyn is ranked highest out of the non-sitters/position holders and as far as the Tower AS are concerned she's running rogue (and possibly loyal to the Dragon over them).  She needs to be seen back in the Tower under 'control'.

 

It is melodramatic tho.

 

Can you remember if this was before or after Eg managed to get the sitters to agree that she had sole dealings with tDR?

Edited by BFG

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Can you remember if this was before or after Eg managed to get the sitters to agree that she had sole dealings with tDR?

It's before, right at the beginning of ToM.

Edited by Rhienne

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Thanks,

 

then at some level Eg doesn't have the complete faith of the Sitters and is aware of that.  I think she's using Nyn as a sort of damage control. 

 

It is a melodramatic phrase, but true given the necessity of the AS being at the LB.  Additionally, if you argue that the AS with Rand represent some considerable strength then Nyn acting as a bridge between them also strengthens the Tower.

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2 questions:

 

1.) what's up with rand's swordsmanship?

 

It's just a thing that bothers me. I really never got the impression that Rand was the second best swordsman IN THE WORLD! (or does RJ's list refer to just Randland)

 

Didn't that lord who ended up with Padan Fain fight Rand to a draw in Crown Of Swords? It just seems like Rand was stated to be the second best swordsman just because.

 

2.) Why didn't the pattern choose a more experience adult to do this job.

 

It just, I don't get why the pattern made Rand the Ace at everything except the main thing he needs to win. Politics. Oh it tries, but Rand's most consistant problem and the source of all his problems post becoming the Dragon is that he's inexperienced and has terrible judgement. The Dragon last time was good at literally everything. One, that's really annoying from a tension point of view and two, if it can do that then why didn't the pattern do it this time as well? It contrived the world to make Tam find Rand on the slopes of Dragonmount, it couldn't have made that happen like 20 years before? The pattern must have had warning about the Forsaken breaking out, it started churning out really strong channelers in advance.

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2 questions:

 

1.) what's up with rand's swordsmanship?

 

It's just a thing that bothers me. I really never got the impression that Rand was the second best swordsman IN THE WORLD! (or does RJ's list refer to just Randland)

 

Didn't that lord who ended up with Padan Fain fight Rand to a draw in Crown Of Swords? It just seems like Rand was stated to be the second best swordsman just because.

 

2.) Why didn't the pattern choose a more experience adult to do this job.

 

It just, I don't get why the pattern made Rand the Ace at everything except the main thing he needs to win. Politics. Oh it tries, but Rand's most consistant problem and the source of all his problems post becoming the Dragon is that he's inexperienced and has terrible judgement. The Dragon last time was good at literally everything. One, that's really annoying from a tension point of view and two, if it can do that then why didn't the pattern do it this time as well? It contrived the world to make Tam find Rand on the slopes of Dragonmount, it couldn't have made that happen like 20 years before? The pattern must have had warning about the Forsaken breaking out, it started churning out really strong channelers in advance.

 

1)  Lan comment on Rand's natural ability from the start.  Now, how much of this is Rand and how much is LTT bleedover is unknown, at least to me, but you figure LTT at least made learning easier, the same as he did with the OP

 

2) The Pattern didn't "inject" the Dragon soul into Rand, he was born with it, so it can't choose an adult.  As for the timing, who knows?  The Pattern isn't conscious, it's possible it can't attempt to balance itself until it teeters past a certain point.

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1)  Lan comment on Rand's natural ability from the start.  Now, how much of this is Rand and how much is LTT bleedover is unknown, at least to me, but you figure LTT at least made learning easier, the same as he did with the OP

Okay, so where does this bleed come from? The taint?

 

Because if not, then did Lews have a bleedover from the Dragon before him and that's why HE was so amazing at everything?

Edited by EmperorAllspice

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1)  Lan comment on Rand's natural ability from the start.  Now, how much of this is Rand and how much is LTT bleedover is unknown, at least to me, but you figure LTT at least made learning easier, the same as he did with the OP

Okay, so where does this bleed come from? The taint?

 

Because if not, then did Lews have a bleedover from the Dragon before him and that's why HE was so amazing at everything?

 

I don't think it has to be the taint.  They have the same soul.  It may simply be a degree of "muscle memory."  My impression, after reading the books and from folks on here that have read the books 1000 times, is that the taint let Rand "talk" to LTT, but the knowledge, or instincts were there regardless.

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In ToM the bloodknives left over from the Seanchan attack are killing Aes Sedai in the Tower.  I think its Siuan who makes some comment in an early chapter about Egwene only having had a month to get the ajahs to trust each other again.  I thought the bloodknives only lived for a few days after activating their ter'angreal rings so how are they still around after a month?

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1)  Lan comment on Rand's natural ability from the start.  Now, how much of this is Rand and how much is LTT bleedover is unknown, at least to me, but you figure LTT at least made learning easier, the same as he did with the OP

Okay, so where does this bleed come from? The taint?

 

Yes that is the prevailing theory. The taint broke down barriers that allowed the LTT memories to begin seeping in.

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I've just re-read the scene in ToM where Gawyn saves Egwene from the Bloodknives.  I liked the scene but I don't understand why one of the Bloodknives didn't slip past Gawyn and kill Egwene?  I thought she was their ultimate target?  From the scene it seemed like they were all focused on Gawyn, but surely two of them could have kept him occupied and one could have got passed and killed Egwene?  Or were they just killing at random?

Edited by Rhienne

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They may want to take care of all external threats before taking Eg.  They know that she has a penchant for setting traps, and it would be bad tactics to have one of them immobilised with a swordsman in the room.

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In Towers of Midnight Egwene leaves a message in Nynaeve's dream summoning her to the White Tower.  She says 'Your dalliance threatens all.', and at this point Egwene has taken the three oaths on the oath rod so she must believe what she says it true, but I am struggling to think of anything that is threatened by Nynaeve not coming to the White Tower?  Whether or not Nynaeve has taken the Aes Sedai test and/or the oaths isn't really that importance in terms of the battle against the Shadow as far as I can see.

from the dictionary::

dalliance:

 

the act of dallying; flirting, toying, or trifling

dally:

 

-to flirt; play at love

-to deal lightly or carelessly (with); trifle, toy

-to waste time; loiter

flirt:

 

-to toss or flick quickly

-to move jerkily back and forth

-to move jerkily or unevenly

-to pay amorous attention to someone without serious intentions or emotional commitment; play at love

-to trifle or toy

toy:

 

-to play or trifle (with a thing, an idea, etc)

-to engage in flirtation; dally

trifle:

-to talk or act joking, mockingly, etc; deal lightly

-to play or toy (with something)

-to play fast and loose (with a person's affections); dally

-to spend idly; waste

 

full message::

 

Nynaeve.  It is time to stop avoiding me.  There is work to be done, and I have news for you.  Meet me in two nights in the Hall of the Tower. If you do not come, I will be forced to take measures.  Your dalliance threatens us all.

 

Of the definitions above, wasting time seems to fit best with the context.

Since it was a long time since Nynaeve spoken with Egwene, Egwene probably felt that Nynaeve was wasting time.

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Since it was a long time since Nynaeve spoken with Egwene, Egwene probably felt that Nynaeve was wasting time

Wasting time!?  I don't think that's a very fair description of what Nynaeve was doing.  Since she'd last spoken to Egwene I believe she had cleansed saidin, sent Lan to the Borderlands, assisted in fighting off the shadowspawn (and the subsequent healing of injured soldiers) in the attack on the mansion in Tear, been helping to keep Rand sane (she was the only AS he trusted), prevented him from slaughtering the Borderlanders, healing madness, and generally helping Rand.  I can't believe Egwene would actually think Nynaeve was sitting around doing nothing.  She knew Nynaeve was with Rand.

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Since it was a long time since Nynaeve spoken with Egwene, Egwene probably felt that Nynaeve was wasting time

Wasting time!?  I don't think that's a very fair description of what Nynaeve was doing.  Since she'd last spoken to Egwene I believe she had cleansed saidin, sent Lan to the Borderlands, assisted in fighting off the shadowspawn (and the subsequent healing of injured soldiers) in the attack on the mansion in Tear, been helping to keep Rand sane (she was the only AS he trusted), prevented him from slaughtering the Borderlanders, healing madness, and generally helping Rand.  I can't believe Egwene would actually think Nynaeve was sitting around doing nothing.  She knew Nynaeve was with Rand.

 

The problem was that Nynaeve was a bit of a maverick at that point. She had been avoiding Egwene for some time, and while it was important for someone to be close to Rand, the White Tower - and Egwene - needed her support. 

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Since it was a long time since Nynaeve spoken with Egwene, Egwene probably felt that Nynaeve was wasting time

Wasting time!?  I don't think that's a very fair description of what Nynaeve was doing.  Since she'd last spoken to Egwene I believe she had cleansed saidin, sent Lan to the Borderlands, assisted in fighting off the shadowspawn (and the subsequent healing of injured soldiers) in the attack on the mansion in Tear, been helping to keep Rand sane (she was the only AS he trusted), prevented him from slaughtering the Borderlanders, healing madness, and generally helping Rand.  I can't believe Egwene would actually think Nynaeve was sitting around doing nothing.  She knew Nynaeve was with Rand.

 

Egwene did not know about Nynaeve's actions until Nynaeve told about them to Egwene.

By the way, healing madness was after Egwene sent the message.

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I go through spurts with WoT, I'll read a book and a half in two weeks, then won't read for a long time. I've started up on my most recent spurt, and I was at the end of Path of Daggers and I'm now in the prologue of Winter's Heart. My question is, when did Logain become an Asha'man? The last I remember of him was Nyneave healing him, then I think he accompanied an important character from Salidar to somewhere else, then next I know he's a commanding officer at The Black Tower. Did I forget what happened or was the jump never explained, at least not yet?

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