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The books answered my second question.  It seems that he is still using that alias.

 

other questions::

who else knows about Elayne's pregnancy?  And who do each think is the father?

Min, Aviendha, Birgitte, Morgase; know that the father is Rand.  Egwene, Nynaeve, Gawyn; guessed Rand.  And I think several of Elayne's servants also know of the pregnancy; but I think that they have no opinion about who fathered them.  The Kin, Sea Folk, Borderlanders, Cairhien people, several other main characters; seen Elayne since the conception, but I think that they only suspect the pregnancy.  Memory of Light chapter 1 reveals another character.

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The books answered my second question.  It seems that he is still using that alias.

 

other questions::

who else knows about Elayne's pregnancy?  And who do each think is the father?

Min, Aviendha, Birgitte, Morgase; know that the father is Rand.  Egwene, Nynaeve, Gawyn; guessed Rand.  And I think several of Elayne's servants also know of the pregnancy; but I think that they have no opinion about who fathered them.  The Kin, Sea Folk, Borderlanders, Cairhien people, several other main characters; seen Elayne since the conception, but I think that they only suspect the pregnancy.  Memory of Light chapter 1 reveals another character.

The Aiel Wise Ones who were in Caemlyn know all about it. Mat, obviously. Thom. Perrin and Faile.

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I'm just passed the start of Elayne's pregnancy, and it seems a lot of people know. She is given meals specifically for pregnant women. I remember one passage where she complains to the reader about Aviendha getting ham and other fancy foods, while Elayne only has porridge. Aviendha and Dyelin also make her do specific things, like get fresh air and have her walk around the palace. Elayne keeps up the rumor that Daved Hanlon is the father by pretending to be attracted to him in front of her servants. She does not try to keep the pregnancy a secret, just who the father is.

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I'm just passed the start of Elayne's pregnancy, and it seems a lot of people know. She is given meals specifically for pregnant women. I remember one passage where she complains to the reader about Aviendha getting ham and other fancy foods, while Elayne only has porridge. Aviendha and Dyelin also make her do specific things, like get fresh air and have her walk around the palace. Elayne keeps up the rumor that Daved Hanlon is the father by pretending to be attracted to him in front of her servants. She does not try to keep the pregnancy a secret, just who the father is.

 

And the goat's milk, we mustn't forget the goat's milk.

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The books answered my second question.  It seems that he is still using that alias.

 

other questions::

who else knows about Elayne's pregnancy?  And who do each think is the father?

Min, Aviendha, Birgitte, Morgase; know that the father is Rand.  Egwene, Nynaeve, Gawyn; guessed Rand.  And I think several of Elayne's servants also know of the pregnancy; but I think that they have no opinion about who fathered them.  The Kin, Sea Folk, Borderlanders, Cairhien people, several other main characters; seen Elayne since the conception, but I think that they only suspect the pregnancy.  Memory of Light chapter 1 reveals another character.

The Aiel Wise Ones who were in Caemlyn know all about it. Mat, obviously. Thom. Perrin and Faile.

 

Those last 4 I mentioned in the post; ie "several other main characters".

 

Forgot the Wises Ones.  It seems to me that they also have no opinion about who fathered them.

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I've created a thread on this topic already, but seeing as putting more than one line usually increases ones chances of catching something I thought I may as well ask here too. 

 

Who does Rand end up with at the end of the series? Is that too big of a spoiler? Though I might as well try and ask, because this has been bugging me for awhile now, (btw I haven't finished the series only about half way through as of now).

 

-Claw Assassin.

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Hi Claw Assassin, welcome to the boards.

 

I've moved your other topic to the Memory of Light Spoiler Board as it's impossible to answer without spoilers.

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I've created a thread on this topic already, but seeing as putting more than one line usually increases ones chances of catching something I thought I may as well ask here too. 

 

Who does Rand end up with at the end of the series? Is that too big of a spoiler? Though I might as well try and ask, because this has been bugging me for awhile now, (btw I haven't finished the series only about half way through as of now).

 

-Claw Assassin.

Like the other poster seem to imply, Memory of Light content seems to be disallowed in any section except for its own section.  It was like that for also the 2 previous books when they were released; until about the time of their paperback releases.

 

 

 

Could you give the exact book and chapter?

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Thanks.

 

 

unrelated to that::

with what weave (or weave combination) did Rand destroy the male Choedan Kal?

And from what material/materials were both Choedan Kal made?

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It could probably warrant it's own thread, but was anyone else disappointed with what Rand became?

 

I, for one, liked Dark Rand, and when he meditated and became Zen Rand I felt... cheated, almost. He was becoming too hard, and sure, he did try to kill his own father, but I think it would have been reasonable for him to remain "Dark Rand", perhaps a bit softened. He was regal, he was powerful, he was vengeful - he was everything I could have asked him to be. If he had wiped the Seanchan off the face of the Earth at the end of The Gathering Storm, in fact, even if he had sunk the entire continent of Seanchan with the Choedan Kal, I would probably have cheered him on, because that would have been awesome.

 

Edit: Perhaps I should be more specific, considering the thread: Why did Rand make this 180 degree turn in his character development? Was it Sanderson, or did Jordan demand that Rand should turn out like this - do we know? Because it feels like a Sanderson decision...

Edited by Roedran a'Naloy

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I think BS definitely had some influence on how Rand turned out because I think there are some quotes suggesting that Harriet and team Jordan were a bit concerned about the Jesus-like direction he went in ToM.  I think this was more in relation to his powers than his personality though, i.e. many of the things that Rand seemed to have suddenly developed a miraculous ability for (like growing things, seeing darkfriends, etc.) were actually tricks.  In my opinion, I think the overall direction for Rand's character would have been determined by RJ.  

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I think BS definitely had some influence on how Rand turned out because I think there are some quotes suggesting that Harriet and team Jordan were a bit concerned about the Jesus-like direction he went in ToM.  I think this was more in relation to his powers than his personality though, i.e. many of the things that Rand seemed to have suddenly developed a miraculous ability for (like growing things, seeing darkfriends, etc.) were actually tricks.  In my opinion, I think the overall direction for Rand's character would have been determined by RJ.  

wait so how boringly unstoppable and god mode sue-y does Rand get in Towers? because he's teetering on the edge of being overpowered all the time. But at least he's normally too stupid to not make a mistake every 9 seconds so it evens out.

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I think BS definitely had some influence on how Rand turned out because I think there are some quotes suggesting that Harriet and team Jordan were a bit concerned about the Jesus-like direction he went in ToM.  I think this was more in relation to his powers than his personality though, i.e. many of the things that Rand seemed to have suddenly developed a miraculous ability for (like growing things, seeing darkfriends, etc.) were actually tricks.  In my opinion, I think the overall direction for Rand's character would have been determined by RJ.  

wait so how boringly unstoppable and god mode sue-y does Rand get in Towers? because he's teetering on the edge of being overpowered all the time. But at least he's normally too stupid to not make a mistake every 9 seconds so it evens out.

 

Without spoiling anything it is kind of an odd book regarding Rand.  He has gone through a big character transformation/epiphany moment at the end of tGS but then he has very little POV time in ToM and it is right at the end - just a little bit of the epilogue.  Not really a plot spoiler but more of a minor character development spoiler:

 

 

From other character's POVs we see that Rand does seem extremely zen, in-control, full of self-confidence and self-control, but in AMoL when we get back inside his head we learn that yes, he's in a much happier place than he was before, but he still has many of the same fears and insecurities, he is just better able to control them now.

 

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Question about Ta'vereness.

 

Okay, so a  character becomes Ta'veren when the pattern needs them to become Ta'veren. From what I can gather Ta'veren-ness has an area of effect. Now, people who are Ta'veren have coincidental stuff just happen to befall them. A recent example I can think of is that Seanchan Banner General just happening to have the world's greatest map of the exact area Perrin was going to attack. Now, did the Pattern contrive to give that guy the map in the first place? Or did Ta'vereness guide Perrin to the guy who had the map? Where do you draw the lines between "Actual coincidences/Ta'verenness guiding people into genguine coincidences/The Pattern planning this out months in advance"?

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Question about Ta'vereness.

 

Okay, so a  character becomes Ta'veren when the pattern needs them to become Ta'veren. From what I can gather Ta'veren-ness has an area of effect. Now, people who are Ta'veren have coincidental stuff just happen to befall them. A recent example I can think of is that Seanchan Banner General just happening to have the world's greatest map of the exact area Perrin was going to attack. Now, did the Pattern contrive to give that guy the map in the first place? Or did Ta'vereness guide Perrin to the guy who had the map? Where do you draw the lines between "Actual coincidences/Ta'verenness guiding people into genguine coincidences/The Pattern planning this out months in advance"?

You're kinda hitting the mark, but not quite.  When someone is Ta'veren, they're essentially a focal point in the Pattern's weavings.  Sometimes it only amounts to unusual events, such as what happened with the towns Rand traveled through on his way to Tear - the mass weddings, a major well drying up, children falling from great heights only to get back up unscathed, etc.  In other cases the Pattern brings a Ta'veren what they need most, even if the person in question doesn't know they need it yet - Mat meeting Noal Charin while trying to escape the Seanchan, only to have the guy be vital to one of his plans in a later novel; Faile being dragged into Perrin's activities after a chance meeting on a ship, and look how much help she turned around to give him.  

 

And in simpler cases, people around a Ta'veren say/do things they wouldn't have said in any other situation due to the twisting chance in a Ta'veren's presence.  When Rand was on the ship with the Sea Folk hashing out the bargain for ships to move people, food and equipment, the woman in charge of the Bargain said out of nowhere "May I be strung up by my ankles if I do not make a fair Bargain" or something along those lines.  She had a very small chance of saying it, but because that chance existed in the first place Rand's Ta'veren twisting pulled it out of her, to her surprise and to his.  Or, in the case of the map Perrin needed for that attack, the odds of someone having that map were incredibly unlikely but not impossible, so fortune twisted in his favor and it turned out that someone did have it after all.  Think of it in terms of Mat's incredible luck, but on a more subtle level.

 

Excluding the miasma ("bubbles of evil") leaking across the Pattern, when a Ta'veren is around, the Wheel itself tends to weave in favor of that person.  Not always, but enough that you can't really call anything that happens to/around them "mere coincidence".

Edited by Zhon

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Or, in the case of the map Perrin needed for that attack, the odds of someone having that map were incredibly unlikely but not impossible, so fortune twisted in his favor and it turned out that someone did have it after all.

See this is my issue. Did the Pattern give him that map months before Perrin met him to set up the meeting where he gave Perrin the map? Or did he get it by coincidence and the pattern guided Perrin to him?

 

See, probability alteration like this doesn't work when it comes to things that had to have been going on MONTHS or YEARS in advance. Or did the Pattern warp reality to give him the map then gave everyone memories of the Banner General receiving it?

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with what weave (or weave combination) did Rand destroy the male Choedan Kal?

And from what material/materials were both Choedan Kal made?

 

other questions::

For what reason/reasons did Rand banish Cadsuane?

And for what reason/reasons did he un-banish her?  His Dragonmount experience seems to be the main cause.

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Or, in the case of the map Perrin needed for that attack, the odds of someone having that map were incredibly unlikely but not impossible, so fortune twisted in his favor and it turned out that someone did have it after all.

See this is my issue. Did the Pattern give him that map months before Perrin met him to set up the meeting where he gave Perrin the map? Or did he get it by coincidence and the pattern guided Perrin to him?

 

See, probability alteration like this doesn't work when it comes to things that had to have been going on MONTHS or YEARS in advance. Or did the Pattern warp reality to give him the map then gave everyone memories of the Banner General receiving it?

 

Except it does work like this months or years in advance where the Pattern is concerned, even decades or centuries.  It wove Rand's birth on the slopes of Dagonmount.  The Aiel going from the Way of the Leaf to being the fiercest warriors on the continent.  King Laman cutting down Avendoraldera.  The Aiel crossing the wall, an Aes Sedai telling Rand's mother to join them because of one of her visions, Tam getting separated from his force and finding them on the mountain before Rand could die from the cold as a newborn.  Rand being raised in the remnants of Manetheren, gaining their many positive traits and growing into a *relatively* mature young man before Moirane ever found them.  If the Pattern can set up that many coincidences in just a few decades, imagine what it could do across the centuries since the Breaking.  Or just as easily in the few short years since the Seanchan have landed on this continent.

 

 

In the case of Perrin's map, I worded my last post poorly.  Here you have a Seanchan general who has been mapping local areas.  The pattern didn't alter fortune so that the guy had the map, it altered fortune for Perrin so that the guy who owned that map was part of the Seanchan group Perrin made contact with.  Essentially, the Pattern brought Perrin the one person he needed most - someone with quality information about their surroundings - at a time when he would need that person to plan the attack.  The Pattern alters chance, not reality, and it makes full use of what's available.

 

That Banner General could just as easily been leading a different war party, hunting for more marath'damane in a different location; if that had happened then the map would never have been used, Perrin's attack would have either failed or had far higher casualties, and any number of other things would have gone wrong from lack of information.  Just as easily, the officer could have died in an earlier battle; one stray arrow, or a Power-wrought explosion, and there would never have been a map created in the first place; or even just scouting a different area and mapping that instead.  A million ways that could have gone wrong, but the Pattern brought both the Banner General, and that map, to Perrin alive and intact.

 

 

 

 

with what weave (or weave combination) did Rand destroy the male Choedan Kal?

And from what material/materials were both Choedan Kal made?

There was no distinct weave that Rand used.  He funneled pure saidin back into the male Choedan Kal, creating a feedback loop that overloaded and destroyed the sa'angreal itself.  Both statues were probably formed from stone and some sort of crystal initially, but when an object is turned into an angreal it becomes like cuendullar from then on and its original material becomes irrelevant.

Edited by Zhon

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Or, in the case of the map Perrin needed for that attack, the odds of someone having that map were incredibly unlikely but not impossible, so fortune twisted in his favor and it turned out that someone did have it after all.

See this is my issue. Did the Pattern give him that map months before Perrin met him to set up the meeting where he gave Perrin the map? Or did he get it by coincidence and the pattern guided Perrin to him?

 

See, probability alteration like this doesn't work when it comes to things that had to have been going on MONTHS or YEARS in advance. Or did the Pattern warp reality to give him the map then gave everyone memories of the Banner General receiving it?

 

Except it does work like this months or years in advance where the Pattern is concerned, even decades or centuries.  It wove Rand's birth on the slopes of Dagonmount.  The Aiel going from the Way of the Leaf to being the fiercest warriors on the continent.  King Laman cutting down Avendoraldera.  The Aiel crossing the wall, an Aes Sedai telling Rand's mother to join them because of one of her visions, Tam getting separated from his force and finding them on the mountain before Rand could die from the cold as a newborn.  Rand being raised in the remnants of Manetheren, gaining their many positive traits and growing into a *relatively* mature young man before Moirane ever found them.  If the Pattern can set up that many coincidences in just a few decades, imagine what it could do across the centuries since the Breaking.  Or just as easily in the few short years since the Seanchan have landed on this continent.

 

 

In the case of Perrin's map, I worded my last post poorly.  Here you have a Seanchan general who has been mapping local areas.  The pattern didn't alter fortune so that the guy had the map, it altered fortune for Perrin so that the guy who owned that map was part of the Seanchan group Perrin made contact with.  Essentially, the Pattern brought Perrin the one person he needed most - someone with quality information about their surroundings - at a time when he would need that person to plan the attack.  The Pattern alters chance, not reality, and it makes full use of what's available.

 

That Banner General could just as easily been leading a different war party, hunting for more marath'damane in a different location; if that had happened then the map would never have been used, Perrin's attack would have either failed or had far higher casualties, and any number of other things would have gone wrong from lack of information.  Just as easily, the officer could have died in an earlier battle; one stray arrow, or a Power-wrought explosion, and there would never have been a map created in the first place; or even just scouting a different area and mapping that instead.  A million ways that could have gone wrong, but the Pattern brought both the Banner General, and that map, to Perrin alive and intact.

 

Is it ever explained why Ta'veren need to exist for all this to happen? The Pattern was setting all of this up purely so that the Ta'veren could benefit from it. Some of it needed to happen long before the 3 even became Ta'veren in the first place. Is Ta'vereness an abstract concept that creates ripples throughout the entirety of time itself to warp things into going how the Pattern wants them to go? Why can't the Pattern do whatever it wants whenever it wants?

 

They keep describing it like the trio are warping the Pattern in real time, even though they benefit from stuff that had to be set up before their Ta'veren powers activated. So is Ta'vereness not a power and more like what happens if the Pattern focuses in on one person and centralizes so many events around them? Well that can't be the case since they have the power to influence people's responses and cause weird random occurances whenever they stick around in an area. So it's definitely a power of some kind. So I guess it has to be a power that transcends time in order to set this stuff up.

 

But then if Ta'vereness works like this then how did Ishamael manipulate Hawkwing into death and destroy his empire? The pattern should've seen that coming and stopped it.  When people kidnapped Rand in book 6 the Pattern had already placed Perrin next to him long before so that he could go off and rescue him when it happened.

 

My point is is there any legitimate in-universe danger of the Forsaken winning if the pattern can see everything and just put people where it needs them to be.

 

And don't you dare say that that happens in other books. In other books that's only noticeable if you're a genre savvy reader. It's not explicitly stated in universe that the heroes are invincible

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Or, in the case of the map Perrin needed for that attack, the odds of someone having that map were incredibly unlikely but not impossible, so fortune twisted in his favor and it turned out that someone did have it after all.

See this is my issue. Did the Pattern give him that map months before Perrin met him to set up the meeting where he gave Perrin the map? Or did he get it by coincidence and the pattern guided Perrin to him?

 

See, probability alteration like this doesn't work when it comes to things that had to have been going on MONTHS or YEARS in advance. Or did the Pattern warp reality to give him the map then gave everyone memories of the Banner General receiving it?

 

Except it does work like this months or years in advance where the Pattern is concerned, even decades or centuries.  It wove Rand's birth on the slopes of Dagonmount.  The Aiel going from the Way of the Leaf to being the fiercest warriors on the continent.  King Laman cutting down Avendoraldera.  The Aiel crossing the wall, an Aes Sedai telling Rand's mother to join them because of one of her visions, Tam getting separated from his force and finding them on the mountain before Rand could die from the cold as a newborn.  Rand being raised in the remnants of Manetheren, gaining their many positive traits and growing into a *relatively* mature young man before Moirane ever found them.  If the Pattern can set up that many coincidences in just a few decades, imagine what it could do across the centuries since the Breaking.  Or just as easily in the few short years since the Seanchan have landed on this continent.

 

 

In the case of Perrin's map, I worded my last post poorly.  Here you have a Seanchan general who has been mapping local areas.  The pattern didn't alter fortune so that the guy had the map, it altered fortune for Perrin so that the guy who owned that map was part of the Seanchan group Perrin made contact with.  Essentially, the Pattern brought Perrin the one person he needed most - someone with quality information about their surroundings - at a time when he would need that person to plan the attack.  The Pattern alters chance, not reality, and it makes full use of what's available.

 

That Banner General could just as easily been leading a different war party, hunting for more marath'damane in a different location; if that had happened then the map would never have been used, Perrin's attack would have either failed or had far higher casualties, and any number of other things would have gone wrong from lack of information.  Just as easily, the officer could have died in an earlier battle; one stray arrow, or a Power-wrought explosion, and there would never have been a map created in the first place; or even just scouting a different area and mapping that instead.  A million ways that could have gone wrong, but the Pattern brought both the Banner General, and that map, to Perrin alive and intact.

 

Is it ever explained why Ta'veren need to exist for all this to happen? The Pattern was setting all of this up purely so that the Ta'veren could benefit from it. Some of it needed to happen long before the 3 even became Ta'veren in the first place. Is Ta'vereness an abstract concept that creates ripples throughout the entirety of time itself to warp things into going how the Pattern wants them to go? Why can't the Pattern do whatever it wants whenever it wants?

 

They keep describing it like the trio are warping the Pattern in real time, even though they benefit from stuff that had to be set up before their Ta'veren powers activated. So is Ta'vereness not a power and more like what happens if the Pattern focuses in on one person and centralizes so many events around them? Well that can't be the case since they have the power to influence people's responses and cause weird random occurances whenever they stick around in an area. So it's definitely a power of some kind. So I guess it has to be a power that transcends time in order to set this stuff up.

 

But then if Ta'vereness works like this then how did Ishamael manipulate Hawkwing into death and destroy his empire? The pattern should've seen that coming and stopped it.  When people kidnapped Rand in book 6 the Pattern had already placed Perrin next to him long before so that he could go off and rescue him when it happened.

 

My point is is there any legitimate in-universe danger of the Forsaken winning if the pattern can see everything and just put people where it needs them to be.

 

And don't you dare say that that happens in other books. In other books that's only noticeable if you're a genre savvy reader. It's not explicitly stated in universe that the heroes are invincible

 

 

 

I'd argue that it's not so much the pattern twisting chance to help a taveren, more that a taveren is the point at which chance is twisted, there's a difference in cause and effect, the taveren aren't the cause of the twisting but the effect of it.

 

We also know through author quotes that the Shadow can win, although they have yet to win an 'ultimate' victory.  In universe Ishy states as much, although without the author quotes I may not have believed it.  Ergo it must be possible for taveren to lose. 

 

 

 

 

 

with what weave (or weave combination) did Rand destroy the male Choedan Kal?

And from what material/materials were both Choedan Kal made?

 

other questions::

For what reason/reasons did Rand banish Cadsuane?

And for what reason/reasons did he un-banish her?  His Dragonmount experience seems to be the main cause.

 

 

Because from his pov he didn't trust her, she had a lot of power over his subordinates, and wasn't respectful.  She was difficult for him to deal with, it was easier to banish her.  He un-banished her because he realized that she was 'on his side' and he needed people around that weren't kowtowing to him all the time.

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mb, on 03 Oct 2013 - 12:16 AM, said:snapback.png

 

mb, on 10 Sept 2013 - 9:23 PM, said:snapback.png

with what weave (or weave combination) did Rand destroy the male Choedan Kal?

And from what material/materials were both Choedan Kal made?

 

other questions::

For what reason/reasons did Rand banish Cadsuane?

And for what reason/reasons did he un-banish her?  His Dragonmount experience seems to be the main cause.

 

 

Because from his pov he didn't trust her, she had a lot of power over his subordinates, and wasn't respectful.  She was difficult for him to deal with, it was easier to banish her.  He un-banished her because he realized that she was 'on his side' and he needed people around that weren't kowtowing to him all the time.

I think there was also a specific event that pushed him over the edge regarding her - the fact that the dominion band had been in Cadsuane's care when Semirhage got her hands on it, and Rand blamed Cadsuane for that.

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