Jump to content

DRAGONMOUNT

A WHEEL OF TIME COMMUNITY
Luckers

Ask A Simple Question, Get a Simple Answer (No AMoL Spoilers)

Recommended Posts

 

 

 

 

mb, on 03 Oct 2013 - 12:16 AM, said:snapback.png

 

mb, on 10 Sept 2013 - 9:23 PM, said:snapback.png

with what weave (or weave combination) did Rand destroy the male Choedan Kal?

And from what material/materials were both Choedan Kal made?

 

other questions::

For what reason/reasons did Rand banish Cadsuane?

And for what reason/reasons did he un-banish her?  His Dragonmount experience seems to be the main cause.

 

 

Because from his pov he didn't trust her, she had a lot of power over his subordinates, and wasn't respectful.  She was difficult for him to deal with, it was easier to banish her.  He un-banished her because he realized that she was 'on his side' and he needed people around that weren't kowtowing to him all the time.

I think there was also a specific event that pushed him over the edge regarding her - the fact that the dominion band had been in Cadsuane's care when Semirhage got her hands on it, and Rand blamed Cadsuane for that.

 

that too. :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Graendal

 

ToM

 


"Mesaana has fallen," Shaidar Haran whispered. "Three Chosen, destroyed by your actions. The design builds, a lattice of failure, a framework of incompetence."

 

The three Forsaken were Aran gar, Mesanna and Asmodean, it's also in the appendices of either GS or ToM

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Graendal

 

ToM

 

"Mesaana has fallen," Shaidar Haran whispered. "Three Chosen, destroyed by your actions. The design builds, a lattice of failure, a framework of incompetence."

 

The three Forsaken were Aran gar, Mesanna and Asmodean, it's also in the appendices of either GS or ToM

Towers of Midnight; and actually its the Glossary, not appendix.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I heard a quote from Robert Jordan that the Pattern broadcast the battle in Falme up in the clouds on purpose so that the one true dragon would be accepted.

 

If the Pattern can just do that kind of thing by itself. Why does it even need Ta'veren? Why can't it just strike the Forsaken down dead? Why can't it kill the Shadow's forces. Why does it need to use anyone if it can cause such a grandiose event to happen that defies all the laws of magic set up by this series' universe?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I heard a quote from Robert Jordan that the Pattern broadcast the battle in Falme up in the clouds on purpose so that the one true dragon would be accepted.

 

If the Pattern can just do that kind of thing by itself. Why does it even need Ta'veren? Why can't it just strike the Forsaken down dead? Why can't it kill the Shadow's forces. Why does it need to use anyone if it can cause such a grandiose event to happen that defies all the laws of magic set up by this series' universe?

First off, it wasn't JUST the pattern broadcasting the battle.  That fight in the sky would not have happened without the Horn of Valere being blown.  If a golden horn can bring back the lost heroes who are tied to the Pattern to be reborn time and again, I think it can go a little farther and project an illusion of the most important part of that fight in the skies.  Plus the Pattern was declaring Rand to be the true Dragon Reborn, so it makes sense that the true champion would be shown for all to see while all the False Dragons are struck by lightning without being outright killed.

 

Second, the Wheel and the Pattern are both aspects of the Creator, who in the very first book spoke to Rand saying "I can take no part.  Only the Chosen One can do what must be done, if he will."  All the Pattern does - all it can do, really - is guide people and events, making use of what is available to set up the potential for victory against the Shadow and its allies.  It can't strike directly, it can't kill anyone, it can't stop people from becoming Darkfriends, and it certainly can't fight the Dark One on its own.  Ta'veren are a tool for the Pattern to focus on, making it easier to guide the world into favorable conditions for the coming fights against the Shadow.  Without them it couldn't guide people and events to the degree needed in order to just survive each Last Battle over the centuries, let alone win them outright.

 

However, as I said to you in posts above, the Pattern does NOT force anyone's hand or make them do anything they wouldn't normally do.  All the choices belong to the people whose lives are at stake.  The events still center around people with free will.  Rand could have destroyed the world from the top of Dragonmount if he so chose, rather than going to the Last Battle.  Mat could have chosen to abandon multiple groups of soldiers during the fights against Couladin and gone his merry way, leaving them to get slaughtered while he went off to live whatever life he wanted.  Perrin could have ignored the Ta'veren pullings from Rand's very presence and stayed in the Two Rivers, overseeing his home and doing what he could to protect it.  If any of those events happened, the Last Battle would have been lost completely because one of the three central pillars wasn't there when they would be needed most.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Can the pattern predict it's own destruction? How far into the future can the pattern see? It knew the tower would be attacked by Seanchan for instance, so in some capacity it can see into the future. But if it always knew that such a thing would happen I doubt it would allow the situation to get that bad. It would've found SOME way to lessen the situation and expose the black ajah earlier for instance, if it had literally all data from past present and future to work with.

 

And if the Pattern can see it's own destruction, for instance if the shadow twisted things so awfully that there was almost no way the pattern could contrive a means of succeeding hypothetically, would things like Min's visions go blank? Or would it proceed  under the assumption that it can win and only go blank when it's destroyed?

Edited by EmperorAllspice

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It would be the Dark One that would destroy/twist/etc the Pattern; not necessarily the Shadow.  And that at his release; unless the Light side could stop him.

 

This issue is actually whether the Pattern could predict which side would win Tarmon Gaidon; since the destruction would depend on that event.  The first 13 books have not told which side would win.

 

edit::

Gathering Storm mentions this issue.

Edited by mb

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It would be the Dark One that would destroy/twist/etc the Pattern; not necessarily the Shadow.  And that at his release; unless the Light side could stop him.

 

This issue is actually whether the Pattern could predict which side would win Tarmon Gaidon; since the destruction would depend on that event.  The first 13 books have not told which side would win.

 

edit::

Gathering Storm mentions this issue.

I always thought that the Dark One's forces can mess with the pattern in some fashion, since the Dark One is trapped and yet Ta'veren are created to correct stuff like the Forsaken, implying that the pattern needed something to deal with them because they were messing things up. I highly doubt the pattern's calculations would want 1 in 5 Aes Sedai to be evil so in some manner Team Shadow at large must be disrupting the pattern.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi everyone.

I have question about LoC- was Min captured in the palace and transported in second box. bound and gagged? I understand so Rand didn t see how she was captured.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So how many things in this series happen that WEREN'T a result of the heroes being stupid?

 

It's like people seem to think that if team light had put 2 seconds of thought into something Team Shadow would've never stood a chance... That's depressing... to know that Team shadow can only function when they're opposed by morons :(

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi everyone.

I have question about LoC- was Min captured in the palace and transported in second box. bound and gagged? I understand so Rand didn t see how she was captured.

Sorilea's POV told that Min was captured somewhere between the Aiel tents and the palace.  Exact place unknown; also the method.

 

 

So how many things in this series happen that WEREN'T a result of the heroes being stupid?

 

It's like people seem to think that if team light had put 2 seconds of thought into something Team Shadow would've never stood a chance... That's depressing... to know that Team shadow can only function when they're opposed by morons :(

Elayne's capture (Knife of Dreams) seems to be one situation.

The converting of Ashamen & Aes Sedia (Towers of Midnight) seems to be another. 

Edited by mb

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
How you think Tuon gave to Joline a pain through the a'dam or here was something other?

 

"If you think that you can," she began, then cut off abruptly, her mouth going tight. An angry light shone in her eyes. 

"You see, the a'dam can be used to punish, though that is seldom done." 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

How you think Tuon gave to Joline a pain through the a'dam or here was something other?
 
"If you think that you can," she began, then cut off abruptly, her mouth going tight. An angry light shone in her eyes. 
"You see, the a'dam can be used to punish, though that is seldom done." 

 

 

I'm not sure I understand the question. That is one of the functions of the a'dam and Tuon as we know trains damane.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

When is Rand's birthday? It's in the winter but when exactly, seriously, I have always been wondering. Shouldn't they celebrate it like we do Christmas after the Last Battle?

 

In Gregorian calendar days if possible. Now, that is a simple question. :tongue:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

 

How you think Tuon gave to Joline a pain through the a'dam or here was something other?
 
"If you think that you can," she began, then cut off abruptly, her mouth going tight. An angry light shone in her eyes. 
"You see, the a'dam can be used to punish, though that is seldom done." 

 

 

I'm not sure I understand the question. That is one of the functions of the a'dam and Tuon as we know trains damane.

 

They point out several times in the series that only someone who can channel or learn to channel is capable of using an a'dam, therefore Tuon is capable of learning to channel.  

 

Just a little later in that scene Mat flat-out tells her that the ability to train damane proves she can learn channeling, at which point she states that she chooses not to learn so it doesn't matter whether she is capable of it or not.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

 

 

How you think Tuon gave to Joline a pain through the a'dam or here was something other?
 
"If you think that you can," she began, then cut off abruptly, her mouth going tight. An angry light shone in her eyes. 
"You see, the a'dam can be used to punish, though that is seldom done." 

 

 

I'm not sure I understand the question. That is one of the functions of the a'dam and Tuon as we know trains damane.

 

They point out several times in the series that only someone who can channel or learn to channel is capable of using an a'dam, therefore Tuon is capable of learning to channel.  

 

Just a little later in that scene Mat flat-out tells her that the ability to train damane proves she can learn channeling, at which point she states that she chooses not to learn so it doesn't matter whether she is capable of it or not.

 

 

Yes of course, she is a learner and we all are very clear on how the a'dam works. How close Tuon is to "stepping over the edge" and whether the a'dam would hold her yet have been debated for years here at DM. Not sure how that relates to my response however?

Edited by Suttree

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

When is Rand's birthday? It's in the winter but when exactly, seriously, I have always been wondering. Shouldn't they celebrate it like we do Christmas after the Last Battle?

 

In Gregorian calendar days if possible. Now, that is a simple question. :tongue:

I do not recall any of the books telling the exact date.  Though the prequel gives a time frame in which the date occurs.

Steven Cooper's timeline tells Danu 2 through Danu 12.

 

As far as I recall, characters do not celebrate anybody's birthday; or make holidays of birthdays.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Dumb question, but whatever:

Why author felt a need to always point out how myrddraal's clothes are unmoving?I can get him always mentioning them being pale,eyeless and sexy inhumangly fast, but this just bothers me.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Dumb question, but whatever:

Why author felt a need to always point out how myrddraal's clothes are unmoving?I can get him always mentioning them being pale,eyeless and sexy inhumangly fast, but this just bothers me.

 

Subjective, but it helps point out the disconnect with our world.  Randland is a world where real monsters walk, pale and eyeless denote something strange, but not being affected by the wind takes them slightly out of this world, moreso than the rest of the description.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I am still utterly perplexed over how much the world of WOT seems split over whether the Forsaken are competent or not. I've seen people call them the best villains of all time and actively shunned me for thinking otherwise. Other have done the same except they think they're obviously some of the most pathetic. It bothers me so much that I can't get a straight consensus. Then I could work on reconciling the things that annoy me about them via discussing them with people.

 

but anyway, Robert Jordan called Sammael a mite who didn't deserve any kind of worthy defeat. Why? What made him so much worse than the other Forsaken? I thought he was one of the higher ranking Forsaken? You don't get high in the ranks without being skilled. Graendal even complimented him inside her own head on some things. and the Forsaken hate each other. And he's not even the only Forsaken who became evil due to haivng a beef with Lews. Demandred and Be'lal have that honour as well. So why is HE so bad in particular?

Edited by EmperorAllspice

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I am still utterly perplexed over how much the world of WOT seems split over whether the Forsaken are competent or not. I've seen people call them the best villains of all time and actively shunned me for thinking otherwise. Other have done the same except they think they're obviously some of the most pathetic. It bothers me so much that I can't get a straight consensus. Then I could work on reconciling the things that annoy me about them via discussing them with people.

 

but anyway, Robert Jordan called Sammael a mite who didn't deserve any kind of worthy defeat. Why? What made him so much worse than the other Forsaken? I thought he was one of the higher ranking Forsaken? You don't get high in the ranks without being skilled. Graendal even complimented him inside her own head on some things. and the Forsaken hate each other. And he's not even the only Forsaken who became evil due to haivng a beef with Lews. Demandred and Be'lal have that honour as well. So why is HE so bad in particular?

I don't think it's that Sammael is particularly bad, I think he'd say the same of any of them (he said this of the other Chosen who weren't sealed in the Bore: "And soon after their deaths, their names were forgotten, except for what might possibly be discovered in some ancient manuscript fragment that survived the Breaking. A bleak story of people who deserved no better, and not worth telling in any detail."). It's just that Sammael happened to have an underwhelming death - overrun by Mashadar and not even witnessed by Rand, who simply accepts that it must have happened because he didn't have a chance to escape. Of course, Balthamel/Aran'gar suffers two rather inglorious deaths, and Osan'gar is taken out by someone who doesn't even know who he is, simply thinking him a runaway Asha'man, so Sammael isn't even unique in that respect. For dramatic reasons, he has to make them seem dangerous, but I think he considers them all to be scum, albeit capable scum, and none of them deserve a worthy defeat, it's just that some got one anyway.

 

As for why fandom is so split over the Chosen, I suspect part of it is that they tend to be better at doing stuff off stage - they can take over countries and reduce the world to chaos, have the forces of the Light at one another's throats, but when they actually show up and have to face the good guys in person they lose, frequently fatally. So Demandred, who spent 13 books doing nothing more that occasionally meeting other people on his own side and being vague, ended up popular with fans, and anyone who actually tried to go toe to toe with Rand got beaten. Semi slaughtering the entire Seanchan Imperial family is mentioned, when Semi is seen in action she gets caught. Then she escapes, tortures Rand for a bit, until she gets killed.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

 

How you think Tuon gave to Joline a pain through the a'dam or here was something other?
 
"If you think that you can," she began, then cut off abruptly, her mouth going tight. An angry light shone in her eyes. 
"You see, the a'dam can be used to punish, though that is seldom done." 

 

 

I'm not sure I understand the question. That is one of the functions of the a'dam and Tuon as we know trains damane.

 

I saw an opinion that the air weave was for Joline and as result she was silenced. But I think maybe here is other sanctions if Tuon knows it.

Edited by 0rion

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

They point out several times in the series that only someone who can channel or learn to channel is capable of using an a'dam, therefore Tuon is capable of learning to channel.  

 

Just a little later in that scene Mat flat-out tells her that the ability to train damane proves she can learn channeling, at which point she states that she chooses not to learn so it doesn't matter whether she is capable of it or not.

 

 

Yes of course, she is a learner and we all are very clear on how the a'dam works. How close Tuon is to "stepping over the edge" and whether the a'dam would hold her yet have been debated for years here at DM. Not sure how that relates to my response however?

 

 

Oh!  I misunderstood your question.  The answer is given to us twice within the series.  First, when Nyneave infiltrates Falme to rescue Egwene, and then a second time when she captures Moghedien during Rand's fight with Rahvin.  When someone who is capable of channeling - or learning to channel, like a sul'dam - is wearing the control end of the a'dam, they can visualize sensations that are felt by whoever is on the receiving end.  Nyneave usually imagined striking someone with an invisible lash, or brushing them with nettles.  The sul'dam often used the image of physical blows from a very strong man, putting more "force" behind it if they were especially displeased.  Or they can use the impression of being on fire, causing the receiver to experience extreme pain just as if their skin was actually being burned off but without any lasting injury.

 

It doesn't have to just be painful sensations either.  Imagine someone's mouth being filled with the foulest concoction imaginable (such as Nyneave's "cure" for liars), or the feel of someone's hand on their shoulder as a subtle reminder to do or not do something, or imagining a pleasant sensation like touching silk or a warm breeze.  And none of it requires any sort of channeling, just a good visualization and some creativity as to what the controller wants the receiver to feel.

 

The a'dam is also used to bring pain or pleasure in other ways.  A simple complement or "good job" will flood the receiver with pleasure, especially if the compliment is because they followed an order given through the a'dam.  Disobeying an order results in almost unbearable torture, like when Egwene wanted to bash her trainer over the head with a water pitcher and then couldn't touch it without going through excruciating pain because she was told to never wield a weapon.  And something like an affectionate pat on the head from a sul'dam can also have a heightened effect on the damane as well.  

 

A'dam provide a nearly infinite means of both punishment and reward without causing true physical harm, resulting in damane who either accept the training so completely they forget any life without an a'dam on or they spend years in misery and pain before being completely, utterly broken.  So for all we know Tuon could have just given Joline the impression of someone pinching her bottom, or gone with an Ogier-strength punch to the gut, or any number of other things, all without even being able to sense Saidar.

Edited by Zhon

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


×
×
  • Create New...