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BFG

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  1. And the same to @CUBAREY apologies if I've offended or been dismissive of your views, it's not my intention, just trying to understand lol
  2. @Nolder absolutely no hard feelings lol, I'm pretty hard to offend and I'm sorry if I've offended, or been dismissive of your views I'm happy to continue debating, discussing. I know we're not going to change each others minds, but I do want to try to understand the other side And if it isn't clear lol, I accepted the result until no deal became the likely outcome. At that point the gulf between the election campaign and the reality became too high and too many lies, untruths are being used to justify brexit and as far as I can tell the brexiteer politicians (and I want to be clear that I'm talking about the politicians) are still being purposefully delusional about what no deal and WTO rules actually mean (I won't pretend I'm an expert, but unlike our brexit secretary am at least aware of how important the dover-calais trade route is)
  3. I watched an interview with someone (Rory Stewart) talking about ways to bring the country together. Basically saying that we need to leave, but leave with a deal that will probably have elements of a customs union (basically soft brexit) not because it's the best option (it's worth noting that brexiteers are no longer putting forward any positive to leaving, it needs to be done because will of the people (as stated in a none binding referendum that would have been overturned by the electoral commission due to illegalities in the leave campaign if binding) )but because it's the least worse. And also that if we go to no deal or remain then the country will be divided, genuinely divided for a long time. The interviewer responded with basically, so everyone loses. It was an interesting interview. Given he's the only PM candidate that admits their are hard choices in brexit I could probably respect him as a leader, but he probably won't survive the next hustings.
  4. Specifically, we agree that no deal is the default and a definite possibility Regarding the poll, we clearly disagree about whether ones a good idea or not, but you asked about vote splitting hence the response about transferable vote
  5. /sighs there is really no point to this lol Farage was talking about Norway during the referendum (if you want to be facetious, then he wasn't advocating it as the brexit campaign were very careful not to advocate an actual brexit because they knew if they did they'd lose, but it was a possibility) now anything short of crashing out is a betrayal, even though crashing out was never mentioned and therefore the one thing that nobody actually voted for lol To summarise Nobody who voted leave voted for world trade organisation rules or for no deal, because that was literally never floated as an option during the campaign. What was said by various leave campaigners during the referendum was "literally nobody is threatening our place in the single market", "would Norway be such a bad thing?" etc. It doesn't matter how many times you or vote leave say we voted on WTO rules Vs remain, it's not true and we do not know how the brexit vote broke down at the time, without another vote now we don't know now So the leave vote was diverse, and for many different things. We have no way of quantifying what the country actually voted for Following the vote, the right (and may) increasingly hijacked the vote and said it meant a hard brexit which runs headlong into the GFA (guitar foundation of america obvs). government won't admit that they need to choose between regulatory alignment, hard external border or a hard internal border (or the maybe possible unicorn which is that technology will cope once developed, estimated to need 2-10 years depending on the source) which is why we've made no progress in the last 6 months to 3 years. May negotiated a hard brexit, that was voted down by the brexiteers lol. And for all you talk about leave being hijacked by remainers, leave still have no actual consensus on what leave should look like There are people who will accept a no deal, they are not a majority, there are people who will accept a hard brexit, they are not a majority, there are people who support various softer brexits, they are not a majority and a soft brexit is more likely to split the leave vote than the remain, since during the initial referendum that was how they were counted. In the polls remain beats every actual version of leaving, what's not been tested afaik is multiple versions of leave vs remain In my ideal world a vote with multiple options needs to be a transferable. Any option will need to attain more than 50% of the vote for us to make any progress, I suspect that we'd end up with no deal/remain as the last 2 options with the split being decided by soft brexiteers. It won't happen as government can't even organise themselves to do that lol
  6. I'll try to get to the GFA tomorrow or over the weekend, lol. I don't understand it well enough to explain it simply and don't have time now for a longer explanation
  7. Lol, maybe I'm just being cynical then to an extent Farage is voicing frustration that exists. I'll leave alone how much of the frustration that exists is actually down to the EU. But Farage is an opportunist. Brexit can never deliver what was promised by the brexiteers, so will always be a betrayal, maybe I'm just being cynical in thinking that farage is being opportunistic when pre referendum he was arguing for the "Norway option" but now that's a betrayal of the leave vote
  8. With the best will in the world that is a simplification of why people voted leave. And that is the problem. "Sovereignty" is the most important issue to some people, I'll even give you most people who voted leave, as is immigration. However the leave vote incorporates everyone who voted for every option, not just those who voted on immigration and sovereignty. They were not the only promises made If you won't accept polls as evidence. Despite a 70ish%(?) vote to leave, a soft brexit/referendum party won the Peterborough by-election, when they had a large leave vote majority (and protest votes are popular at by-elections, same as council and EU elections) No arguments on this lol We'll have to agree to disagree on this. The problems arise from the Irish border, and I can link to a video from a vote leave staffer about the thought process behind it if you want. In principle you're right, the issue is that at some point our government are going to have to choose between regulatory alignment with the EU, q hard border in Ireland or an internal border. Brexiteers still think they'll find a unicorn and until they admit that unicorns aren't real we're messed up. This isn't the remainers unable to solve this, it's the brexiteers. But in general I think we're going around in circles, you think the most important thing is immigration and sovereignty, from the people I know who voted leave, I'd give that to 50% of them which doesn't make a majority, which is why a referendum on what's actually on offer instead of the fantasy sold is important Farage will scream betrayal, and people will believe him. That will happen anyway regardless of how we leave, that was always going to happen. There's no easy fix to it unfortunately
  9. Ok, agreed people vote on generalities not specifics. So let's look at the general promises made by vote leave, let's start with a deal, since they said no deal would be insanity. Or maybe no economic shock. Or maintaining access to the SM (when they weren't saying we'd still be in it) etc. No deal doesn't deliver even the basics of what they said Ok, again the EU, the CU and the SM are separate things (and I was/am being facetious on purpose). It is not possible to be in the EU and not in the CU or SM, it is possible to be in either of the others and not in the EU It's probably important to separate out the withdrawal agreement from a future trading agreement, this is something that over here appears to be misunderstood or misrepresented a lot The withdrawal agreement covers 4 major things The money we owe, agreed at £39 billion (not as high as you stated earlier but not small either) Reciprocal rights for EU citizens living in the UK and vice versa The Northern Irish border A 2 year transition period during which we can negotiate trade agreements, not just with the EU, but the rest of the world, but removes the cliff edge. It also allows the continuation of security working together, access to EU programs we want to stay part of etc etc etc The only thing that's really objected to is the backstop (which ironically, was negotiated for in its current form by our government) I dislike the deal, in the detail it implies a hard brexit and I don't want to cut ties that much, but from an objective point of view it delivers most of the key promises of brexit I believe we would be in a stronger position if we maintained the position we had at the beginning, that nothing is agreed till everything is. Ie in theory we have a negotiated withdrawal, now let's negotiate the FTA. Then sign both, no need for the backstop and we're all good. However that means staying fully in the EU during these negotiations and that's politically unfeasible so [elaborate shrug gif] The EU and the UK both want a free trade agreement, or something very close to it, but a trade agreement is not the same as the WA and hasn't been negotiated yet.
  10. Ok, I won't divert into US politics, other than to say regarding the border it's the difference between building a wall and removing all infrastructure/personnel already there, ie genuinely open borders (the opposite of what was promised, not the status quo) This isn't misrepresenting the vote, leaving the EU is not the same as leaving the customs union or single market, which is why their are some countries in the single market and/or the customs union while not in the EU
  11. Again not sure if serious, but if you are that's insanely disingenuous Sample US ballots suggest that when you vote you put a tick by a name. So presumably you'd be ok if Trump suddenly went open border, after all you just voted for trump not the policies he stated at the time Or if you want to go to technicalities, leaving the EU is not the same thing as leaving the customs union or single market, so where's the vote on that?
  12. Sometimes I find it hard to tell when you're serious or when you're just stirring lol
  13. Basically the referendum was horrifically naive and is why we're in the mess we have now. Brexiteers still don't have a way to leave that fulfils any of the promises they made during the referendum I don't like the idea of a second referendum (not because I think it's unfair but because of the societal mess that leaves) but we need it because no-one has another way to resolve the situation
  14. But that's because you appear to think leave is leave is leave and don't see a difference between them The "mandate" is to leave with a deal. At no point was a hard border in Ireland, world trade organisation rules, no deal etc mentioned by anyone (regardless of whether you listened to remain or leave regarding single market and customs union) The situation people voted for is not what is happening, that is why the argument for a vote exists. There's always been a vocal minority calling for a referendum/reversal since the vote. It didn't take off until leave became further and further away of what was actually voted on That all ignores the fact that if it was a legally binding vote it would have been overturned due to financial irregularities in the leave campaign
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