Lets talk about The Consolidation =)

[Mystica]

I been following this thread since it started and been biting my tongue, restrain my volatile nature and went over everything 20 times to cool down, all in order to be able to voice my opinion clear headed as I wish to avoid another outburst as the one I had on the old board. (yes, Jhae, I do actually hear those that confront me and speak their minds and make sense, even if I don't like what they're saying). This will be one hell of a long post for which I appologise up front and some will be offended, yet this is the best I can get without being a hypocrit. So if this leads to my banning or fireing or whatnot, so be it.

 

First, several times now Cleo and others have brought up the somewhat sneering question of 'where's those other ORG leaders that everyone 'claims' are so strongly against this'. I'd say that some of them don't wish to spend their time and effort trying to voice their opinion in a (what might very easily be seen as a) futile and meaningless 'debate'. Otherwise put, maybe the Band and the Wolfkin are the only ones who care enough to actually go through the trouble. But I'm sure this side of the medal will simply be conveniently ignored, as are the people who voice an opinion that goes against that of the ruling body being ridiculised, gangbange, cornered, attacked, ignored and laughed at.

 

Secondly, what's the point of this thread anyway? When someone falls in line and praises the Light outta' Kath and the admins they are patted, hugged, smooched, called 'logical and wise' and a truckload of empowering stuff as this is 'an opportunity for people to speak their mind and voice their concerns'. The moment someone voiced a concern or spoke their mind that was not in line with the ruling body all of a sudden it's 'why don't you just accept things', 'this is the way it'll be and you can't do anything about it', 'what's the point in keep fighting something you have no say over' and they are gangbanged from all sides, sneered at, belittled, denegrated, backstabbed, etc. Suddenly the whole 'this thread exists for the benefit of people to voice their opinion and concerns' is a lot less obvious. This thread is quite clearly not a way to voice your opinion as any opinion that doesn't fall in line is simply ignored and ridiculed in other threads on other boards. So spare me the selfrighteous attitudes, because you make me sick.

 

Thirdly, Twinflower you are one piece of art alright. The Cavalry is the only regiment with their own offsite board 'to' the offsite board and when the notion was opted by one of the Archers that this shouldn't be, I do believe you were one of those that fought quite fiercely to kéép your own offsite boards. Now all of a sudden you're all 'we should come back to DM and abolish our offsite boards'. I've seen levels of hypocracy in my life, but you dear Lady top them all.

 

I am the one that brought the Light RP rule to the attention of the Band since apparently Kath didn't feel that outside the WT org this piece of information was needed to be known even if it does have a direct impact on almost 85% of the Band's character and I'm positive the Band isn't the only one in this. I'm curious to know, Mistress of the Meadow, how you would have reacted if Corki suddenly said that RP'ing was no longer allowed in the Band and things like the meadow and the jousts would no longer be possible?

The Band could exist on the DM boards? Don't make me laugh! The different posting rules between DM and the Band make that possibility all but non-existant! Corki is the one that NEVER stops nagging us to post on DM, to enforce things to be done at DM, to put down his foot when wé whine that we don't want to. He is the one that constantly puts up phrases and lines in the most annoying places to remind us and to force us to be active on DM. When wé voice a desire to put things on the offsite board, hé is the first to counter it and not back down for anything. I don't know what you hope to gain with this sudden heel licking attitude of yours, but if this is your way of getting back at him for dealing with a drama you were part of you are truelly to be pittied.

 

This issue of the Band's unique nature and posting rules and needs is now being addressed by Corki with Jason and the other admins, as it should be and not a piece of information priveledge only to the WT. Corki is the one who told me off and shut me up yesterday as I have a lot less confidence in the response of both Kath and the other admins as he seems to do.

 

As for the Hornsounder, explain to me, if the offsite boards are the only place I accept articles on, how the reporters from the other orgs who are 'not' a member of the HS submit their articles? Banders have sent me their HS stuff on the DM boards through pm and not once have I told them they had to do it on the offsite boards. You are inventing arguments that are clearly not true. Very 'wise' and extremely 'logical' indeed.

 

Jason isn't the one who normally 'voices' the decisions on DM, that task is usually done by Kathana. And she has a choice in which style she does that. She's a teacher, so I for one won't threat her as an incapable adult unable to chose her style of communication. She's a grown up woman who is fully capable of making an action knowing full well the consequences of that action. She has chosen to be the voice of Jason either by accepting the task or by asking for it, so she is the one who is being addressed not only on whàt is being said but also on 'how' it's being communicated. The last days I've seen her post in a style so totally 'unlike' the Kath I have come to know that I almost thought we were dealing with a totally different person. She was open, inviting, reasonable, flexible, etc. Nothing like the 'this is how it is and that's that and you will comply or else' style she likes to use so much. So that shows to me that she 'is' quite capable of doing it another way, but she just can't be bothered, though seeing her posts recently I'm inclined to believe that she 'does' care but maybe is unaware of how she comes across sometimes due to a vastness of obligations. I can understand people being swamped with work and having a lot on their plate. But if that interferes with the benefit of the community then maybe it's time to split up those responsibilities so she's not that easily irritated by silly things. 

 

Jason has posted and Corki is taking things up with him, yes. Not once from the few times I spoke to Jason have I seen any of the 'my way or the high way' attitude that we do get from Kath's posts. It is not whàt is being said, it's 'how' it's being said. And how the community is being treated that ruffles feathers more than anything else. The whole attitude towards the people of Fiddlesticks is a perfect example of that. Kath herself has posted somewhere on these boards that it is of vital importance that people are active 'here' in order to generate the income from the adds. I wonder... Since the Fiddlesticks people are so eagerly being ridiculised, laughed at, treated with condescendence, reduced, taken their post count away. Is the income generated by their activity (which as I understand it has àlways been solely on DM proper) also being cut off? I guess not.

 

Another thing that I'd like to point out. Much noise is being made on how this income is being used for the benefit and upgrading of this site and how we're all ingrates for not falling to our knees in total worship for the opportunity of being 'allowed' to post here. But I don't see all that much noise being made of the fact that this income is 'not' solely used for the upgrade of this site but also serves to fund Jason's Video Company. Is it wrong for him to do so? Hell no. Is it wrong to expect me to contribute to something I have no knowledge off? Hell yes! Before he posted here, I had no clue as to what kind of videos he was making, so for all I knew they could be going directly against our beliefs or principles yet we are expected to contribute to it by being active here which would increase that income which in turns benefits that video production. Apparently you lot don't really care what you're being used for, but I'm funny that way, I do like the idea that I have a 'freedom' of choice in what exactly im contributing to. This blatent disregard for people's fundamental 'rights' is what bugs me the most on this site and the irony is that I'm standing up for the rights of all of you who are so eager and willing to blindly follow whatever shines the hardest without knowing where it leads to.

 

Before another comment is made on 'I suddenly see people here who I haven't seen on DM before' based on the appearance of Vorkia, let me fill you in on the fact that she is one of those that has actively worked and even intiated discussions and workgroups to increase the Band's activity on DM as a direct response to Corki's never-ending efforts to get his members to be as active on DM as on the offsite boards. So before you sneer at these people again, make sure you have àll the information for you might find yourself look quite foolish otherwise.

 

I am also a part of the White Tower, Cleo, and I may not be a Green but I would hope to think that the opinions of àll members of the WT matter and not just those of the Greens that happen to be Banders too. Brid, Tay, Twin, Northy, Niamh (though she's not been active in the Band since I joined) are all part of the White Tower too and their opinions matter every bit as much as a Greens. I'm puzzled why you ask so forcefully for a Green Bander's opinion on at least three different posts. The WT is more than any one Ajah and in my eyes àll our members have a right to their voice. It's amazing how when a Bander that's a WT member too falls in line with the ruling body they're praised, but when one voices a different opinion all of a sudden it's 'where's the Green Banders??'.

 

As a member of the WT, Kath is my ORG leader, and as such her rule is law and as Ajah Head I abide by that rule and have already started preparations to move the Reds over and I'm working with other groups within the WT towards an increase of activity that may benefit the org and my Ajah. I follow Kath as my ORG leader, but that doesn't necessarily mean I like her style of communication as Community Admin or her habbit of forcing her own tastes and preferences onto others.

 

Now as this is being addressed by Corki directly with Jason ànd Kath ànd Owen, I don't have anything more to say and will also await the outcome of those talks.

[Taymist]

Tay the conversation with Horn had nothing to do with promotion points.  I was told I had to be registered at the Proboards to keep my Org membership at DM and be a member of the Band. Period.

 

The conversation came about in the first place because you'd signed roll call. I was involved in the convo at the time if you think about it. 

 

However, if you have to be registered to earn promotion points..thats saying that to participate as a member, be interactive and achieve ranks in the regiments, you have to be registered for the proboards.

 

 

Exactly!!! Registered... which takes a whole two minutes.... that's not the same as active... you never have to go there again if you don't want to. All you have to do is be at DM and sign roll call, also at DM. Precisely my point. You do NOT have to be ACTIVE at the off sites to be a member nor to get points nor to get promoted.

 

I have not told anyone to "shut up"  about thier concerns, I have said I am tired of the whining and non-constructive comments in relation to the move to the new boards, and expecting immediate fixes to everything they didn't like. I get to express my frustration and opinion as well.

 

I never said you'd told anyone to shut up. Yes, of course you get to air your opinion. I never suggested you didn't, what I did suggest was that categorising anyone who states an opposing view or airs concerns or voices a complaint as "whining" is insulting and unfair. It'd be quite some scene to see anyone take a complaint to a manager/staff anywhere else in the world and be accused of whining. "No sir, sorry, we aren't giving you a refund for your spoiled food, you're just whining." Uh huh. I think not. "Complaints procedures" are put in place in all kinds of "groups" for exactly that... complaints... its not whining.

 

And look back a page or two, Kelly, the Org leader of the Ogier posted, stating that it isn't a problem to lose thier offsite boards, Lor posted that it isn't a problem for the Kin, which I also know as a member of the Kin Council, she also said it isn't a problem as a member of the White Tower Staff, and still not a problem as a member of the Illuminator's Guild staff.  And many members of the White Tower have participated in this discussion.  The Org's not heard from I think are the BT, the Seanchean, the Aiel, and SG.

 

You've just repeated exactly what I said. :-\ I wanted to hear from the absent Orgs, BT and SG specifically. Which part of that implies I hadn't read the ones that were already here? If they posted, they aren't absent are they? :-\

[twinflower]

wow..between you and Myst I must be a really terrible person without a brain, memory, morals or any ethics.  Amazing.

 

[Taymist]

Ummm... and where exactly did I say or imply anything of the sort?

[Kivam]

Thirdly, Twinflower you are one piece of art alright. The Cavalry is the only regiment with their own offsite board 'to' the offsite board and when the notion was opted by one of the Archers that this shouldn't be, I do believe you were one of those that fought quite fiercely to kéép your own offsite boards. Now all of a sudden you're all 'we should come back to DM and abolish our offsite boards'. I've seen levels of hypocracy in my life, but you dear Lady top them all.

 

Mystica - that was nasty and personal, and there's no call for that.  If you have a problem with someone, keep it off the boards.  PM them with your complaints.  But don't do what you just did again.  Please.

 

BTW, as Illuminator's staff - we have no offsite boards, so our opinion is irrelevant.

 

But from what I've seen:

 

Orgs with a problem:

 

Wolfkin

Band

 

Orgs with no problem:

 

Ogier

Seanchan

FL

Illuminators

Aiel

Kin

 

Divided Orgs:

WT (RP Div seems more concerned than most, and some of the members are agitated, but the Org leader is certainly behind it)

 

No clue (based on this thread):

 

BT

CoL

SG

 

I think everybody needs to take a step back and remember that we're talking about a website, not life or death, and that all of the various concerns may or may not be answered well in due time.

 

In other words - climb off the ledge and chill out, people.

[Matalina]

CoL is not an org, it only gets one board anyway.

 

The only other groups that are really upset about this are the WT Div and possibly a few others who aren't show up here. 

[Thorum]

I wanna ask something about the message boards. We can now send pms to several persons at once, but on the received pms you can only see who sent it. Can it be made so you can see all people it has been sent to, and a 'reply to all' option?

 

Thanx

[Guest Alicia]

Since that isn't something neccessay chances are it probably won't happen.  Modifying the boards isn't always that easy.

 

Mat

 

 

[Kivam]

Since that isn't something neccessay chances are it probably won't happen.  Modifying the boards isn't always that easy.

 

Mat

 

 

 

Sybil?  is that you?

[Segurant]

Kivam,

 

Great post.  You did forget the WT org ;)  I think they don't have a problem with the move.  Also the CoL isn't an Org anymore so they are only on DM.  If we had a Karma system, I'd applaud you!

 

 

 

[Jhaenara]

Add Kin to your no problem list, Kivam.  ;D

[Haxorsist]

CoL is not an org, it only gets one board anyway.

 

Pfft. If we demanded another board, you'd so give it to us. We are, after all, the backbone of DM.

 

But we don't want one. Our motto is quality over quantity. :P

[Kristine]

I know you are seeing post from band members that haven't posted here much outside of the band.

 

I can tell you why I don't... its for this reason right here.  If you express an opinion that can be held as controversial to the mass consensus you are shot with a flaming tar ball and told you are being an instigator.

 

Truth of the matter is, nothing that has been done with the boards has affected us as the orgs in this manner.  Now this does and we are speaking up.  Instead of looking at the concerns people have become concerned with labeling people as hostile, pigheaded and just flat out elitist snobs.

 

The orgs that have issues are typically going to be ones that have a lot of data, or use their offsite boards frequently.  Others that will be hesitant to transition will be ones that have had encounters that have them a bit jaded.  I don't think anyone at this time is sitting down with their arms crossed throwing a temper tantrum, I think we are asking for clarification and details.  Each org has put significant amounts of time into making their respective orgs into what they are.  As much pride as Jason takes in DM, and Kath takes in the forums, that's how much pride we as the orgs take in our communities.

 

Stop and try and see it from the other side for just one second.  Say that Jason says he's not going to support forums anymore, and you need to move all community type activity off to other sites.  Think of the outcry and apprehension that each of the orgs would feel.  The reason you see the band piping up now is because we have over 144 boards that we'd have to find a way to transition.  And if we don't transition all, we have to understand the archiving policy, and then we have to decide what does need to be transitioned, and then we have our rank and mods to contend with on how we run the regiments.

 

So, basically, and I am speaking to ALL band members here as well.  Stay on the target problem.  We are not discussing how you earn points, how things are done in the band, what we are discussing is the move, and how it impacts the band as a whole.  We are trying to understand what the options are, and then will come to a decision once ALL facts are given to the orgs.  Any other issues should be discussed within the band on whatever board you feel like talking on.

[Kivam]

I know you are seeing post from band members that haven't posted here much outside of the band.

 

I can tell you why I don't... its for this reason right here.  If you express an opinion that can be held as controversial to the mass consensus you are shot with a flaming tar ball and told you are being an instigator.

 

Truth of the matter is, nothing that has been done with the boards has affected us as the orgs in this manner.  Now this does and we are speaking up.  Instead of looking at the concerns people have become concerned with labeling people as hostile, pigheaded and just flat out elitist snobs.

 

The orgs that have issues are typically going to be ones that have a lot of data, or use their offsite boards frequently.  Others that will be hesitant to transition will be ones that have had encounters that have them a bit jaded.  I don't think anyone at this time is sitting down with their arms crossed throwing a temper tantrum, I think we are asking for clarification and details.  Each org has put significant amounts of time into making their respective orgs into what they are.  As much pride as Jason takes in DM, and Kath takes in the forums, that's how much pride we as the orgs take in our communities.

 

Stop and try and see it from the other side for just one second.  Say that Jason says he's not going to support forums anymore, and you need to move all community type activity off to other sites.   Think of the outcry and apprehension that each of the orgs would feel.  The reason you see the band piping up now is because we have over 144 boards that we'd have to find a way to transition.  And if we don't transition all, we have to understand the archiving policy, and then we have to decide what does need to be transitioned, and then we have our rank and mods to contend with on how we run the regiments.

 

So, basically, and I am speaking to ALL band members here as well.  Stay on the target problem.  We are not discussing how you earn points, how things are done in the band, what we are discussing is the move, and how it impacts the band as a whole.  We are trying to understand what the options are, and then will come to a decision once ALL facts are given to the orgs.  Any other issues should be discussed within the band on whatever board you feel like talking on.

 

*Shoots a flaming tar ball at Kris*

 

Honestly, I'd probably have read all that if you weren't such a hostile, elitist, pig-headed snob

 

*scampers away*

 

(yes, this type of scintillating, incisive response is why I'm a Debates and Discussions mod  ;D)

 

Seriously, though, I think people understand pretty well, after all this, what the Band's concerns are.  And they are sensible, logical concerns.  If moving the offsite forums to DM means you are going to lose what makes the Band the Band, then that's a problem.

 

But Kris - and this is coming from a non-Band member who (to be honest) could care less about this issue either way, so I think I'm fairly objective about this - there does seem to be a whole lot of anger and resentment in the posts of people who don't want the move.  And there also seems to be a basic unwillingness to at least table that anger and resentment until people can see whether their concerns are going to be adressed in a livable way or not.

 

Look, if people are concerned about whether the moderation standard of the Band's offsites will be altered, and how . . . well, Corki is talking to Jason, I assume that's one of the topics, and he'll come back to you with answers.  And you, as a group, will decide whether you'd rather run the Band as its own group unafilliated with Dragonmount or accept those answers.

 

The same goes for the technical issues . . . you'll get a chance to see how the merge affects smaller orgs, and, I would guess, even the Band's move would be done over time, especially if you have 144 offsite boards to move  :o  You'll get a chance to see what the glitches are, what they aren't, and, again, to decide whether it's livable to come back to DM or you'd rather continue as an unafilliated group that happens to have DM members.

 

Either way, I think that Kris' final point is exactly right - Banders (Bandees?  Bandits?), focus on the fact that you'll have a chance to make a decision once all the facts are in.

 

And Kris - come by the D&D board every so often.  We like controversial there  ;D

[Kristine]

See... you say D&D and I am pulling out my d20 and ready to role up a rogue... don't tease a girl like that.

[Jason Denzel]

Another thing that I'd like to point out. Much noise is being made on how this income is being used for the benefit and upgrading of this site and how we're all ingrates for not falling to our knees in total worship for the opportunity of being 'allowed' to post here. But I don't see all that much noise being made of the fact that this income is 'not' solely used for the upgrade of this site but also serves to fund Jason's Video Company. Is it wrong for him to do so? Hell no. Is it wrong to expect me to contribute to something I have no knowledge off? Hell yes! Before he posted here, I had no clue as to what kind of videos he was making, so for all I knew they could be going directly against our beliefs or principles yet we are expected to contribute to it by being active here which would increase that income which in turns benefits that video production. Apparently you lot don't really care what you're being used for, but I'm funny that way, I do like the idea that I have a 'freedom' of choice in what exactly im contributing to. This blatent disregard for people's fundamental 'rights' is what bugs me the most on this site and the irony is that I'm standing up for the rights of all of you who are so eager and willing to blindly follow whatever shines the hardest without knowing where it leads to.

 

I want to address this point, because, as you pointed out, its important.

 

First off, yes, Dragonmount.com has been a registered business in the US since 1999. It is perfectly legal and legit.  I did this because DM is a big financial burden and I do not want to have it inter-mix with my family's personal finances.  By setting it up as a business I am able to have a dedicated bank account and can do things like pay bills, buy hardware and services, invest in events, contests, and marketing.  In the first 4-5 years of being in existence DM lost a ton of money.  Thousands of dollars a year.  It was ugly.  In the recent years (since I took more direct control over the DM server and we launched DM 7.0), DM has made enough money to pay off a large amount of debt, pay for server and network upgrades and try to setup a cushion for those unforseen issues (such as hard drive failures).

 

I also use DM to give back to charities, most recently Robert Jordan's Amyloidosis research charity through the Mayo clinic.

 

Yes, some of the net gain (IF there is any in a given year!) goes to fund my films.  I set a portion of the net proceeds into a seperate budget to go to things like that. DM and all of its features and services have a much higher priority, of course.  

 

Regarding the content and knowing what you are supporting:  I applaud you for mentioning that, Mystica.  You SHOULD know what you are supporting.  Most sites online won't tell you that.  When you go to CNN or FOX news, do you know where that banner revenue is going?   When you go to other fan sites - including ones MUCH larger than this - do you know where their profits are going?   The money I set asside from DM goes to fun movies that I genuienly think WoT fans would enjoy. You can view them on my website.  Most of those were actually funded completely outside of DM!  The only one that I am actively saving DM money for is the SPECTRE project which is an epic fantasy about sacrifice, renewal, and love.

 

Robert Jordan knows about all of this and very much supports it. The last thing I would ever do is try to "milk" his series or you guys - his fans- to try and make a buck.  If I wanted to make loads of money do you think I'd run a fan site? LOL.   DM has easily cost me 10-50 times anything I've ever made.  And that's not including the cost in time and effort.

 

Having said that, I will try to find the time to put some info up on the site somewhere that describes what those banner ads pay for exactly.

 

J

 

PS: Mystica, although I appreciate your honesty and integrity, I challenge you to find a way to do so that does not belittle or insult people. The post I quoted above includes some aggressive comments that I don't think are necessary to get your point across.  In other words, keep it cool please. :)

[Jason Denzel]

One more thing about the banners.... if your concerned what the banners are funding, please feel free to ask.  And now that you know what they are funding, have you ever stopped to ask what the banners on the proboards are paying for?  Try asking them. See what they say.  :)

 

J

[Segurant]

Personally I think this discussion is over, and we should just let it die.  Let Jason and the Admins deal with the specifics with each Org. 

 

Order 66 has been given.

 

 

[Jhaenara]

No way... I'm not funding Jason's porn!

 

Unless I can be in it...

 

[twinflower]

you are probably right Segurant.  I would have liked to respond to Myst, and clarify somethings, and actually have a long post written in rebuttal.  It wouldn't accomplish anything though in the long run.

 

I will say, bottom line, I have always supported the DM community, and my concern and input here is because I genuinly care about it and the Band and don't want to see a split from DM happen.

 

Time to Roll the Dice and see what the pips show us.

[Segurant]

Thanks Twinflower.  ;D

[Auld Manriva]

Unbelievable.... Whats this? Order 66? .... (wads it up and scores 3 with a direct hit to file cabinet 13.. So much for that

 

Sounds perfectly reasonable to me Jason, not that it mattered that much so far as I'm concerned. But thats me.. I don't want anyone to think I represent anyone in the Band but Riva.

 

Twin, it would be appreciated if you would quit expounding on YOUR interpretations of my posts. I am not hostile to this move, I disagree with the Offsites issue. Does that mean I am taking my ball and going home? NO. ..

 

If my posts seem to have a lack of tact or grace. You of all people know that I reflect accurately and directly the way things are said or presented to me. Some people take  mannered speech as weak kneed, and that is what I have witnessed here. Light forbid, I was part of a PTA in which your shining light was a member. Am I capable of a rational discussion in a civilized fashion? You well know that I am...

 

Hang the Lawyers First!! 8)

[Kivam]

Blah blah blah . . .

Hang the Lawyers First!! 8)

 

Incitement!

 

Making terrorist threats!

 

Dude, my firm is going to sue you [glow=red,2,300]bankrupt![/glow]

[Barmacral]

Order 66? Fine.

 

*Kills Segurant*

 

Sorry man, but the Jedi wannabe's have to go too. Its why Ani killed the little ones.

[twinflower]

I see, so I am not allowed to observe and comment as others are...and yes you are capable of a civilised discussion, but as I well know, you also can be very caustic, and hostile when you disagree with something.

 

So sorry you interpreted my post to point the finger at you about hostility and Tay also, but it was actually in reference to the general hostile stance of many of the posts that had abounded about this subject.

 

Don't worry about it Kivam..it seems to be more of a hang Twinnie day....