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JenniferL

Lets talk about The Consolidation =)

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I am fairly optimistic about the idea of moving over from proboards to a subdomain if the trials/demonstrations work well. I am quite willing to wait and see how things go, and honestly, I really want things to work out. Kathana, this is just a suggestion, but I think things might go a lot more smoothly if, instead of flouting the fact that the admins have decided this and it will happen, you simply showed those of us who are skeptical that it will work alright by demonstrating and thereby proving so with another group.

 

Again, I do want this to work. I even think there's a pretty good chance it will. But is it that much of a problem to simply allay our collective concern by proving that there is in fact nothing to worry about?

 

Well, that's what I've been trying to do. However, when the Org Leaders asked me what would happen if they refused to move their Orgs, I was honest with them.  Jason has asked us to move everything related to DM onto DM. Otherwise, it will not be considered part of DM anymore.  You've got time to decide what you want to do. I've tried to be as nice as I possibly can be about this, but those are the facts of the situation.  I'd really rather not have to replace anyone or restart any Orgs, but if that's the decision that's made, I'll accept it.

 

I'm going to be honest. I am rather upset about the way this whole thing has been handled. There were numerous other ways to do this that would not have ruffled feathers. That said, you can only deal with the situation in front of you.

 

Moving in RL or in OL is always difficult. While I've heard that the move would be done gradually and with feeback, I had also heard that this decision has already been made. Which did not strike me as incorporating feedback. Telling the org leaders they simply had to do this without any chance to at least check things out struck me as extremly unreasonable. I am very pleased to learn that the orgs will get to try things out first. As Corki noted, simply seeing these boards in action may  alivate many concerns. Perhaps this is a new development. Perhaps it has always been part of the plan. But I am glad to hear it now.

 

Would having everything in one place make my life easier? Probably. But I am against the move (as I currently understand it) for several reasons that all boil down to control. If these issues are resolved then I will be much more open to the idea.

1). Control of the subdomaines. This is not because of a need for power but a logicistical concern. Both Kath and Jason are busy and can not always attend to all requests for changes in mods, admins, powers, etc. One of the points of delegating authority is so that they can take care of such routine matters. If we're going to increase the number of boards here on DM, then there will also need to be an increase in the amount of authority that is delegated just to make sure everything runs smoothly.

2). I understand that this is Jason's site and he makes all of the final decisions. I'm sorry, Kath, but telling people that that they "MUST do something, OR ELSE!" is not the best way to convice people that you are going to let them run their orgs.

 

Belive it or not, we are trying to work with you here. You're right, we can just leave if we're unhappy. But we haven't because we want to make this work. This isn't about egos or having our way. This is about trying to do our jobs so that this site this best it can be. I think if you address some of our concerns, you'll find that we're much easier to work with.

 

Ar'tara

Wolfkin Council

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Offsite boards are SO fast coz, obviously the loads just minimal, what with us Blues just have a board for Porn, another for illegal file trading and a third for Paet to do his stripteases and another for archiving everything. *shrugs* So yeah... will they be ALOT slower?

 

Gawd, Boopsy -- you make the Blues sound like such trash!!!!  :P

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Well as this is a PUBLIC issue now The poll results in the staff board are out though i would like to point out that in a vote most of the staff were opposed to the idea.

 

As my second in command pointed out the main grief with the wolfkin is about control. We just had to deal with kath on the issue of leadership and it took somewhere close to a month, a month and a half before that was sorted out. During which time, We were struggeling to stay above water as an org. We had no clear chain of command or staff though we got through it and are a strong orginization within DM today. We do not want to wait around to make changes to our boards or our leadership team within the org if the subdomains go through. Some boards might last a month or 2 due to speacial progects that we are doing and some might be a permanant fixture to our org. If it was left to just kath and the admins to do we might have weeks in between responses as they have responsibilities we dont have but we would also like to move foward with our plans.

 

Another issue I have with all of this is the way it was handed down and the way its been handled thus far. I came into this with a fairly open mind. I tried to work with the DM staff but after a few emails communication stopped. It was suddenly do this or else from kathana. In the e-mails from jason that i had he seemed very reasonable and asked for the url to the wolfkin's offboards so he could look around and see for himself what exactly made our boards so speacial that we wouldnt want to get rid of them. I posted a poll not to long ago in the staff board to get the feel of the rest of the staff as to how they felt. The responses poured in then corki came back from vacation and voiced his opinion. That was when the threats started from the staff in earnest. Now i know corki isnt known for being the most level headed person on DM and truth be told neither am I. I am having to force myself to remain calm and open throughout this whole post. But to start with threatening a well respected org leader was not the best way to convince me to be cooperative. I consider corki a close friend though we have butted heads on a few occasions in the past we always know that DM is buisness and that doesnt affect us as people. We've always come to a peaceful solution to our problems without threats or promises of bannings or firings of staff within the band.

 

I am very angry and upset at the way this whole situation has been handled. In A perfect world the motion would of been put before the staff of DM and put to a vote. I feel the reason it wasnt was because kathana has never liked offboards as well as a few other things and i know for a fact that this isnt the first time she's rubbed people the wrong way. Egwene resigned from the newbie board in a large part due to disagreements with kathana about how things should operate.

 

Kath, I know you do a difficult job but the way this was handled was wrong and you very well know it. I do not think you meant for this to spin out of control but the fact was it did and now we have to deal with it. I apoligize for laying this at your feet but since the last email with jason where i felt we had made a step in the right direction all my dealings with this issue have been with you and we seem to have digressed from the progress i felt was made with jason.

 

Now that thats over with i have one more point to make. As it has been stated the org offboards feel like home. The skins applied to these boards, Board names and such look and feel like the org they belong to. The wolfkin boards are truly a work of art that i credit to shelaria as she did our graphics work before she had to leave dm due to personal reasons. I believe this was one of the last websites she designed before she left and they truly are beautiful. Not a whole lot other than org work happens on these offboards but that does not mean they are not important. Each of my council and myself have a board to ourselves where we can brainstorm and store our idea's for the org. While these boards are open to the other council members so they can get input from each other each of the offices is a unique place. which we have made into our own private workspace and know where everything is at. The fledgeling guilds of the wolfkin are working on there boards and making them into homes currently as the guild idea is a new thing for the wolfkin and some are still getting used to it. We feel that this move would interrupt the major progress the org has made since early april late march. Wolfkin is once again a strong org and growing by the day. In taking on this job I promised i would represent my org with everything I posess. I am protecting them from a move they are not quite ready for. Though they are resiliant ive done my research since darksmoon, the original wolfkin org leader left, we have had a bumpy sometimes volitile road. I am trying to smooth those lumps left by time and i dont want to see the hard work put in by me and my staff go to waste.

 

That is really all i have to say right now ive poured it all out on the table. Take it or leave it the choice is yours to make.

 

Goldeneyes05

Wolfkin Org Leader

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I can appreciate everyone's upset. The first time a board "consolidation" happened I was dead set against it. For nearly all the same reasons, but my first concern was that we may lose so much information if a crash happened. But... truth be told, there isn't one safe place on the net or on your own computers, to "keep things safe" as mentioned before.

 

My second problem with it was completely disguised. I didn't know it was until it happened. But once I was here I recognized it. I didn't have any control and I couldn't bitch about things the way I could offsite. I couldn't let my hair down and pop open a beer, guzzle it in front of the teenyboppers.

 

It was restricting and felt like I was being choked.

 

But... what happened was we started seeing new members. Ton's of them. We had more WT - Greens than we knew what to do with. It was really a blessing. That is really why I came here to begin with. Not to hide out on another "offsite" board.

 

I know how it feels but, unless you've been in a community situation before and one as busy as this one, you wouldn't know that changes can come quickly. No you won't be asked "if its okay by us.."

 

The offsite boards drug a lot of members away from the DM Proper and took revenue away from here. How long can a free board survive, with Jason giving us more technical gadgets, faster processors, better boards etc if we move onto our own little boards and leave a shell behind with barely any traffic? What a great way to pay Jason back for giving us what we came here for to begin with???

 

Perhpas he should shut this place down and start a Harry Potter site, or something more popular.

 

Don't say you wouldn't miss this place and all the people who are now, your dear friends. I assume you are here because its the best site so far, you've found, the most fun, the most relaxed so far for a PG-13 site.

 

GE, I can totally appreciate the work that was done on your site. I've done the same thing so many times, by myself as an artist. I commiserate with you on that.

 

I don't know what to say to you on that but, that I did the same thing. But I gave it all up.

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but, unless you've been in a community situation before and one as busy as this one, you wouldn't know that changes can come quickly.

Actually, I have. I was here before the Comm/RP split.

 

For me at least, it's not an issue of feeling resctrited. The Wolfkin don't really have alot of rules and they're the same in both places. Call me crazy, but I like to have logistics figured out before I move. Simply saying "Do it" isn't very helpful. I'm not talking about having all of the kinks worked out. I'm talking about things like "What we will do when we get here?" "How will this all work?" "Is this what's best for my org?"

 

Honestly, I like the idea of having more stuff here. One place to go for all my DM things? Great! But since I'm in a leadership role, I have to think about the concerns I mentioned above. And I'm a bit frustrated that we can't seem to get answers to those questions. They're being "discussed" or "considered" (I don't use those quotes saracstically, I just can't remember the word Kath used), but in the meantime we're being left out of the loop in decisions that do affect us. As I said, I know the final decision rests with Jason, but would it hurt to include us in the process? Right now I don't feel like that's happening.

 

Really, this whole thing does not have to be nearly this difficult. And I'm still not entirly sure how it got here. I have some ideas, but tossing accusations around won't really help with the problem. Can we stop threatning to ban/fire people and focus on making this work? We, as a DM community, have an problem and just being insistant about isn't going to solve it.

 

Ar'tara

Wolfkin Council

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I've been here for a long time (since 1999 in fact) - and I've been away for quite some time too - so I guess I've basically seen all the incarnations of DM from the beginning.

 

From DM before the split, terribly slow and not as big yet, to DM after the split, with offsite boards, and now consolidated again.

 

The way I see it, there are many benefits to moving from the offsite boards to the DM boards. It is easier for newbies to find their way around without having to find out about offsite boards as well. There are no additional hosting questions involved - it costs less money to be here than to maintain offsites and additional URL's etc. The current offsite admins will not have to concern themselves with technical issues, governance issues, sites going down and figuring out why etc. Being on one big site might help create bonds which weren't there before.

 

I can also see the drawbacks. Like Lavinya said earlier, it is hard to leave a place you call your home. I can know, I built the current WT site as it is now (before I left and gave it over that is). Time went into it and love. On the other hand, the things I learned from it are still there in my head, so that is something that won't be lost.

It is also hard to give over control. Having your offsite boards means that you can do as you please with it. Create an abundance of boards (which sometimes, I might admit, gets out of hand :D). The notion of having your boss look over your shoulder constantly, as Lavinya so aptly put it, might be daunting and makes people feel less comfortable. And then we haven't even looked at all the information stored next to the offsite boards themselves. Bio's, information, archives, whatnot. As far as I understand, that can stay on the offsite boards for a while but will have to be moved over eventually. Can DM offer us the space we want for this, and can it be controlled easily by those who should have access to it?

Those are my concerns.

 

All in all, I think I'd be reluctantly for the move.

 

What I don't like however, as many before me have pointed out, is the way this has been communicated. Heh, I've always been an advocate for democracy, as a lot of pple around here know, and I've ruffled a lot of feathers by saying that since I am not on a pay-roll anywhere here, I don't really think there's a boss above me who can demand things of me at gunpoint. Since I am not staff anymore in what capacity whatsoever, for me personally that point is moot, but I do think that a lot of people on the RP side, whom I talk to occasionally, feel the same way.

 

It doesn't go over well to have someone say to you "do this or you'll be fired". Especially not when you haven't even had a chance to put a say in the matter at hand. That, I think, is where the dissent stems from.

 

If this had been communicated well up front,and if the proposal had been allowed to sink in instead of being brought with an air of "it doesn't matter what you think, we're doing it anyway", a lot more people would have had a positive outlook on what is happening now.

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BTW, I don't think DM is loading slow because of the number of message boards, it's looking for files that don't exist right now because of some issues which I'm waiting for permissions to be set so I can fix them.  After that problem has been fixed and there are still issues it may be the database draw but right now I'm saying it's not.

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Holy crap people, how was communication mishandled?  Kathana notified the staff when she found out.  She dropped what she was doing and went onto DM and informed the sta Her and Owen agree to push the consolidation date to January 1, 2008.

 

The staff got about one month of notice before Jason announced it on the older boards.

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With the non-PG 13 thing Kath, mainly we just have dirty jokes and innuendo. I keep an eye on it to make sure Paetric doesn't post anything too dirty, but I'm happy that we can still have it as long as no one really young joins ;)

 

And back to the suprise thing again. None of the staff, admins included as far as I am aware, that the move was taking place. We were notified as soon as possible. Maybe warning not just staff a month ahead, but members too, would be a good idea and would help to sooth hurt feelings as I think the suprise didn't help? I know it's wrong to shut the gate after the horse has bolted, as it were, but I think in a situation like this everyone likes to know what is happening. This is all happening very fast for a lot of people.

 

*snuggles everyone*

 

 

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Showing up late to this thread.  Not going to pretend I have read all 12 pages before this.  (But I have skimmed some of it).  

 

As you can see, these forums are *NOT* ready for prime time.  They look ugly as hell, we're having bugs, and not everyone knows where they are.  Frankly, these new forums should never have been made available as the main forums at this point.

 

But alas, for various reasons that boil down to "Jason does not have time to properly manage the move" we are here.  So, we are working to making these forums look nice, optimize speed, and setup all the subdomains.... if it's going to happen.  The Org leaders and DL leaders need to work with the admins via *EMAIL* about this.  Every single org leader and DL leader and mod should be actively working with us to figure out the best way to setup their stuff.

 

Lastly... please... don't get upset with Kathana, Matalina, Fader or any of the admins.  They are working their butts off and they genuinely have your best interests at heart.  If you think they are "power tripping" then you are sadly misinformed and really don't know what's going on.  If you have an issue with any of these changes, I invite you to email me directly.  I'm slammed with work, but I will reply as soon as time allows.   jason @ dragonmount.com.  Let's talk and work things out.  I'm here to hear your ideas and get your input.  

 

J

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Jason - expect an email from me about things. I know I should have done it earlier, but I've had a holiday, then DM EuroMeet, getting home and then back to work.

 

What has annoyed me is the way this has been handled - the do it my way or the go way attitude. That seems quite obvious by a lot of people's posts. There were a lot of ways that this whole episode could have been handled a lot better. But hindsight is a great tool.

 

I really want to stay at DM. There have been things said in this thread that look promising and will go along way to change my views on everything. But as stated before, my resentment stems from the way this was handled.

 

Anyway, I will only be reading this post from now (unless something grabs me that I want to reply to), since I am now taking the matter up with Jason.

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Corki,  looking forward tot he email.

 

As for how things were handled... I agree!  It wasn't ideal.  The plan was to open up these boards, have a limited number of people test them out (staff primarily) and then adjust them to work for us.  It has always been my intent - of which I have been vocal for a long time - to bring all traffic back to DM.  That should have come as no suprise. 

 

Anyway, we can discuss via emails the specifics for your org.  You guys have a most unique situation, but I al completely confidient we can figure out a solution which works for everyone.

 

J

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*sighs*

 

Jason!

 

*grins* I haven't seen or heard from you IN AGES. At least I'mnto so sure ya remember me, but I used to be Skechid. *shrugs*

 

Anyway. Personally, I think of all the major moves that DM has made, this doesn't really seem like the biggest thing. That was the RP/Community thingy. Personally, more power to Dm if it manages to do the jobs of the offsites without us having to donate/pay for the boards. AS LONG AS EVERYTHING STAYS THE SAME.

 

And I guess if things don't work out, what are our options? Should things not be 100% satisfactory, does that mean any offsites we open will ring us trouble with admin etc? I guess what I'm really asking is, what would ya do to orgs which continue having offsites even after the private boards kick in? Demote them? Ban them? Dismiss them? Then what if they do it via email discussion groups? Where do ya draw the line? As long as we don't tell newbies about the new boards? Or as long as they aren't as big scale?

 

And another thing. *shrugs* I guess I'm not as 100% adamant about the offsites as the certain orgs like the wolfkin and the Band. As far as I know, I haven't heard any other orgs complaining about the move tho? Does that mean that the are the only ones who are against it? And if so, then by a vote of democracy, they'd be a minority anyway?

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Hey Skechid !  Yup- of course I remember you. :)  How could I...er...forget?  hehehe

 

To address your questions: DM belongs at Dragonmount.com.  The admins are providing nice message boards on a stable network of servers to any groups or org who wants to run an online club based on the Wheel of TIme.  (So long as they meet a reasonable about of minimum requirements)  If you want to run message boards and stuff outside of DM -- fine. No problem.  But you may not use the name DM when you do so.  Clear enough?

 

Same goes for mailing lists and blogs and things of that sort.  We now offer you guys the tools for that!  If anybody has something they want, all they have to do is ask. We can install software and make things happen. 

 

By ensuring that we keep everything at DM, we can keep our "brand" in tact.  Many fans think DM is the "official" WoT site because of RJ's heavy involvement here.  My goal is to keep up professional and united  so that DM canbe a "one stop" shop for all thigns WoT related. 

 

 

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Aww... ya remember me. That's nice. *bounces happily*

 

*shrugs* It's been such a long journey since when we first started that it's become abit cliche everytime something "exciting" happens. We're like the church or something. Huge blows left right centre and we forever survive. Hurhurhur.

 

Nonetheless, I do hope things turn out smoothly. I'm tired of temp boards and not having a DM to visit. I think without offsites during Breakings would probably cause withdrawals for me. Hahahaha. So yea as long as the transition's smooth enough, I have no complains.

 

And I never liked temp boards.

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I've not read any further than Seggies post, will do so after this.

Seg, Kath, Owen, my comments on communication were not directed at you. I know you guys are just the messengers, and I know you could not have informed anyone earlier than you already did. Sorry if I did not put that in my post - I should have.

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I've not read any further than Seggies post, will do so after this.

Seg, Kath, Owen, my comments on communication were not directed at you. I know you guys are just the messengers, and I know you could not have informed anyone earlier than you already did. Sorry if I did not put that in my post - I should have.

 

;D

 

My post wasn't directed at anyone just the lack of communication theory or conspiracy.  I am not a messenger but just in the thread for the debate ;)

 

But I do notice that the thread has calmed down since Jason posted.  It must be that ta'varen thingy.

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Hi Kivam!

 

Waves at Linnea - how've you been?  ;D

 

 

Actually the reason for a lot of the tensions and upset is that some of the Orgs see several downsides to the consolidation. These seem to be focusing around control issues, loss of data and losing the activity that the offsites accomodate.

 

The control issues..well, most people don't like being told what to do, and their "right to privacy and autonomy"  of not having the DM admins having access to the Org's business.  To me that doesn't make sense.  Currently the offsites are under the control of the individual Org Leaders and thier staff.  The consolidation would, as I understand it, make the offsite boards stem from DM, called, sub-domains.  There would still be the same options of doing what is done on the offsites, but would be in DM proper, and the DM admins would have access.  There is concern that the DM admins would interfere..well I seriously don't see that as an issue.  First of all they are to busy to read every single board, and secondly..that's what the Org leaders are for.  Delegation of responsibility.  If there is something, they tell the admins, that's thier job.  And if the DM admins do browse the sub domains..what's the big deal..that's thier job!  The one concern of this that I do understand, is the Org leaders having the ability to manage the sub domains, of who has mod powers and access, and to make changes to those boards.  I have no idea how that would work.

 

The loss of data or threads and info is a concern.  With the advent of these new boards there were problems.  Some of the things not transferred were important to the Orgs.  I have no idea what is involved technically in such a move, or why it didn't work.  I do know that to expect it to be perfect and seamless is probably an unrealistic expectation.  The concern of moving what's on the offsites to here is valid.  For some Orgs, all the activity is on the offsites, the business of the Org, the archives etc.  It would be negative to lose that.  I have a question to address that and is one of the rumors I have heard.  Would the offsites be allowed to still exist as Archvies for the Orgs?  With the Org leaders and designated members having the only access to maintain the archive?  That would resolve that concern and result in a lot less information having to be transferred...

 

The third concern I stated is the activity of the Off site boards.  Originally, the offsites were allowed(?) because DM couldn't handle the added boards and amount of activity and the spam.  With this newest version of DM and the plans Jason has for new servers etc, that is no longer a valid reason if I understand all of this correctly.  The main offsite I am active in is the Band.  I am speaking for myself here, not as a representative of the Band.  

 

It would be a sad and tragic loss to lose the activity and community that exists on the Band's offsite boards.  There is a lot of good stuff happening there.  There is a Game, the business of the band, archives, ceremonies, point earning, and interaction.  I am wondering if that activity can realistically be accomodated at the new DM.  Is it possible to add to the Band's current boards, more childboards?  The Tower has numerous boards, and the Band has the activity to support that many as well.  Then still have the subdomain to function as a support, and for the private boards that we have for the regiments, and business type stuff.  By private, I mean accessable by the members of the regiment, not the whole band.  As it works now on the offsite, we do have that and the admins of the offsite have access to every board.  

 

Overall I support the Consolidation, mostly because of the last three reasons why, that Kath quoted.  I know for myself that being active on an offsite, I have not been active on DM.  I have recently been back at DM more, and realize I have been missing out on many things by not being here, even though I felt I was still involved by being in the Band.  I think if others, that seldom are at DM because they are at the offsites so much, may rediscover that as well.  Some people, however, have never participated at DM, and only at the offsite, so they don't really know about DM, except for what they hear.    All of this, if I am right, is for the good and welfare of DM.  I think that many of the folks against it, are not grasping that and only looking at the good and welfare of thier Orgs and because of the isolation of the off sites don't think of themselves as part of DM. There has to be a meshing of both.  Can that be a possibility Kath?

 

Sorry for the really long post...but the questions i have then are:

 

Would Org leaders have control of thier Org's subdomains?

Can the Offsites be maintained as the Org's archives?

Can the new DM accomodate the amount of activity that is currently done on the offsites?

Can the consolidation work for the good and welfare of both the DM and the Orgs concerns and needs?

 

Hmmm . . . thanks for the explanation.

 

It seems like there are separate layers of concern:

 

1) Let's call it "interactive" - how, if at all, will the autonomy of the offsite boards be compromised by the move.  Seems like a legitimate question and concern, though one that I think Kath's addressed fairly well, and the details of which can and should really be hashed out on the staff boards.

 

2) the technical - what will happen to the posts at the offsite boards?  How will the transfer work?  What will the effect be on DM?  Again, legitimate concerns . . . I'm no techie, but I think the best - and actually, only - way to answer those concerns is to do the transition extremely slowly.  Move the smaller offsite boards first, then one or two test boards from the larger offsite orgs, until people in the more reluctant orgs are satisfied that the move will be successful, or more likely to be satisfied, anyway.  At that point, you've done all you can do, and it's c'est la vie time

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Just letting you know chances are any hosted boards on some free site like proboards, ezboards or the free phpbb ones out there will not be able to tranfser any posts except via copy and paste, they don't want you to leave their service therefore they will not provide the data to you.  If you are hosting a phpbb forum or other forum on a server then that is doable provided things are not done on a one login basis.  If there is only one login then nothing can transfer over.

 

 

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That said, if you find yourself on a private board and you're reasonably sure everyone is of age there...*shrugs* I couldn't possibly read every board and neither would I want to. As long as you're not posting porn and having cybersex while illegally trading files, I'm fine with most things.

 

hahahahah

 

Seriously, though - as an attorney, I'm begging you: if you do not currently have a DMCA Notice-and-Takedown statement on this website, for god's sake, make sure you get it put up ASAP.  And if you don't know what that is, then you don't have it, and you need it.

 

Before any other changes.

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As I am someone that is technical, and someone that has done some research - it is correct that the free boards such as exboards, proboards and the like, will not be able to transfer posts over except through the copy paste method.

 

I'm against the move personally because I feel that it will detract from the individuality that each of the Orgs and divisions have made for themselves.  They will be cookie cutter images of each other with the same board look.  Plus just the statement that "all issues will be handled the same"  to me screams that you don't trust the people that you've put in charge, or that have taken the task upon themselves to lead the orgs.  You'll have people with administrative control over the orgs simply because they have administrative control elsewhere unless you take the time to pull up segregations of duty and create roles based on those boards they should or should not be allowed to see or administer.

 

It has also been illustrated in the past that there is at times a lack of ability to set aside personal views and allow the org to run the way it wishes.

 

I'm not one that will huff off and leave if you decide to do the merge, but I will be the one sitting here laughing and saying told you it wouldn't be as easy as you were touting it if it goes through.

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