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The Reason the DO Never Had Rand Killed


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So I was thinking about it, and in the earlier books Ishamael, as Ba'alzamon, said he could have Rand much more easily if he were dead, because he claims the dead are his...he assuming the identity of the Dark One, Shai'tan. But in later books, rather than try to have Rand killed, Moridin tries to have him converted to The Shadow. I think then that Ba'alzamon...the real Shai'tan, not Ishamael, but the Dark One himself...is lying when he says he has control of the dead. As we have seen, some souls pass on into TAR after death, and I believe all souls can be reborn, so they're not likely in a hell controlled by the Dark One if they're to be reborn. Afterall, the Dark One is the Father of Lies, so I'm thinking that the reason they never had Rand killed was because the DO doesn't really control death...or maybe it's similar to a lot of religious mythologies, like Christianity, where the DO = Satan, and has control of evil doers when they die, and The Creator is like God/Heaven. So DO wouldn't have Rand when he dies. Which means Rand being converted to the Shadow must be crucial to the DO's escape.

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The DO needs Rand as much as Rand and the Light need a DO. It goes all back to the whole, "Without Death, there can never be life. Without suffering, one can never know joy" thing.

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I think the world of WoT is a deal more pragmatic than that in construction (and wouldn't that be the other way around, can't have death without life):)

 

There isn't a lot to go on and what there is is pretty contradictory. Per the books there's Ishy on CoL being turned, and Rand on Dragon not being turned (CoL isn't always the Dragon). Iirc, the authors are very cagey about answering questions along this line, but I don't bother with author quotes much.

 

The definitely don't kill Rand order came in LoC prologue, before that, isn't too clear. There's temptation/bring despair to the Dragon in the early books, but then there's the Ishy fights at the end of each too. Personally I think we saw what the DO needed Rand to do in VoG (dragon destroys the world/Pattern/whatever), but there might be other ways to reach his goals as well, although Rand was pretty blase about what needed to be done yet in ToM.

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Ishamael's description of the game of sha'rah seems to encapsulate the game the Shadow is playing. The way to win is to move the "Fisher" piece to certain parts of the board. Only one side can control the Fisher. Ishamael comments that sometimes it's easier to manipulate/force the Fisher into the space while in the other person's control than to control it yourself. If the Fisher dies/is removed from the board, then it's a bloody melee until one side loses all of its pieces.

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I think that the DO needs mortals around to break him out of prison. If he had of killed Rand, then the Forsaken would of set about building themselves up rather than breaking him out and ruined his plans.

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I have wondered about this as well. There obviously must be something deeper that the DO needs than just killing Rand, or at least I hope there is. Otherwise I'd say the DO has had several chances to pull the trigger and just not done it. Back when Rand was becoming Rand couldn't Slayer have just waltzed in and offed him in his sleep? Or with as close as Aginor was to Rand as Dashiva, if the DO said kill him then he'd do it regardless of how much of a coward Aginor was. Or when Shadar Haran freed Semi, why not just walk into Rand's room and take him out while SH blocks him off from the OP? Or when Rand was shielded and stuck in the box before Dumei's Wells, one of those BA sisters could have just destroyed him. To say the shadow is just so incompetent that they have been trying to kill him and just failed every time would just be so embarassing for the series.

 

I really like the sha'rah Fisher piece idea. It is interesting that in that comparision that the light and the shadow would have a blood bath if Rand the Fisher dies, because to me if Rand died then the Light would be pretty much toast. This is especially interesting to imagine considering that back during LTT's time as the Fisher, the light was getting beaten pretty badly by the shadow.

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I'm not sure if it was RJ or BS who confirmed that balefired souls are reborn eventually but you can search for the quote on WOT encyclopedia/wiki. I came across it the other day but my cookies cache has been cleared since then so I can't provide you a link Vards. It's been on the boards here too if you search DM.

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Or at the very least, why wouldn't he just order him to be balefired. No more Dragon FOREVA!

balefire doesn't destroy forever, it just makes the person die prior to the moment he is killed. Further the DO has a specific time period to seize the soul of a person dead before he cannot anymore, balefire killing before the person died makes that window of opportunity much smaller, and some points, non-existent meaning the DO cannot reclaim those souls.

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Or at the very least, why wouldn't he just order him to be balefired. No more Dragon FOREVA!

balefire doesn't destroy forever, it just makes the person die prior to the moment he is killed. Further the DO has a specific time period to seize the soul of a person dead before he cannot anymore, balefire killing before the person died makes that window of opportunity much smaller, and some points, non-existent meaning the DO cannot reclaim those souls.

 

http://steelypips.org/wotfaq/2_nondark/2.3_one-power/2.3.07_balefire.html

 

Hmm. Seems you guys are right. Makes Balefire not seem so bad now. (In my mind at least)

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I think DO liked Rand in his dark state right before Dragonmount. He had the Dragon on his side, Rand was tainting the pattern, the balance was lost, if that kept up for a little more time...

Balefire Rand? I guess after his dragonmount epiphany, that would be the first thing DO asks Moridin to do, even if moridin would die doing it, maybe beginning of next book.

Succeeding at balefiring Rand? the pattern protects taveren, we see countless times the three of them duck at just the right moment and an arrow cuts Perrin's shirt, miss Rand...

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Or at the very least, why wouldn't he just order him to be balefired. No more Dragon FOREVA!

balefire doesn't destroy forever, it just makes the person die prior to the moment he is killed. Further the DO has a specific time period to seize the soul of a person dead before he cannot anymore, balefire killing before the person died makes that window of opportunity much smaller, and some points, non-existent meaning the DO cannot reclaim those souls.

 

http://steelypips.org/wotfaq/2_nondark/2.3_one-power/2.3.07_balefire.html

 

Hmm. Seems you guys are right. Makes Balefire not seem so bad now. (In my mind at least)

 

Don't forget what it does to the pattern though. Both sides agreed to stop using it after all...

 

Edited by Suttree
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Here's what I think:

 

How did the Creator make sure Creation had the best chances of surviving? Where do you put your (dark/evil) counterpart that in part defines you? Inside the strongest place: the Purest Soul tied to all other Threads: The Soul of the Dragon.

Shai'tans prison is inside the Soul of the Dragon.

 

Therefor Shai'tan needs that Soul under very special circumstances to escape.

During all the books Shai'tan has tried to manipulate the Dragon Reborn in such a way for one of those circumstances to play out.

 

We've seen one of those circumstances -almost- occur; on top of Dragonmount when Rand nearly became his own enemy. And once you become your enemy, you loose from him.

The Shadow tried to maipulate the Dragon (Reborn) in such a way that he himself would choose evil. As we've seen through Perrin's eyes in ToM, Rand went nearly completely black in T'a'r.

Now that plan failed, Shai'tan has only one option left.

 

I explained it shortest here: http://www.dragonmount.com/forums/topic/60798-day-that-dawns-twice/?do=findComment&comment=1864846

(Do keep in mind I'm trying to explain my version of 'the day that dawns twice' here, but it also states the reason why Shai'tan needs the Dragon Soul)

 

 

P.S; Hey Suttree! Weren't you the one Dida-fying me a few years back!? *laughs*

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Or at the very least, why wouldn't he just order him to be balefired. No more Dragon FOREVA!

balefire doesn't destroy forever, it just makes the person die prior to the moment he is killed. Further the DO has a specific time period to seize the soul of a person dead before he cannot anymore, balefire killing before the person died makes that window of opportunity much smaller, and some points, non-existent meaning the DO cannot reclaim those souls.

 

http://steelypips.or...7_balefire.html

 

Hmm. Seems you guys are right. Makes Balefire not seem so bad now. (In my mind at least)

 

Don't forget what it does to the pattern though. Both sides agreed to stop using it after all...

 

Well yea but if the thread isn't gone forever, I'm not sure why is *so* much difference than mass killings anyway, since all those threads are being snipped at once too. I Suppose it's the time factor, just seems... Off. (You know by now I think deeply into stuff like this).

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My interpretation was that to win the ultimate victory in the game of sha'rah the DO has to turn the Champion of Light at just the right time.

 

I beleive his goal had actually always been to drive Rand to destroy the world as he nearly did at the end of TGS.

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Or at the very least, why wouldn't he just order him to be balefired. No more Dragon FOREVA!

balefire doesn't destroy forever, it just makes the person die prior to the moment he is killed. Further the DO has a specific time period to seize the soul of a person dead before he cannot anymore, balefire killing before the person died makes that window of opportunity much smaller, and some points, non-existent meaning the DO cannot reclaim those souls.

 

http://steelypips.or...7_balefire.html

 

Hmm. Seems you guys are right. Makes Balefire not seem so bad now. (In my mind at least)

 

Don't forget what it does to the pattern though. Both sides agreed to stop using it after all...

 

Well yea but if the thread isn't gone forever, I'm not sure why is *so* much difference than mass killings anyway, since all those threads are being snipped at once too. I Suppose it's the time factor, just seems... Off. (You know by now I think deeply into stuff like this).

 

Well, it creates a time paradox, as it kills the person before they die. If I remove a thread from a tapestry, not much will change. If I remove a lot of threads from a tapestry, the whole thing starts to unravel. The same goes for the Pattern. Reality could fall apart. Using balefire to destroy important people or lots of people causes a ripple effect backwards, and as the person died before the balefire was used, the things that they did in that now missing window now have no cause to explain the effect, so the Pattern readjusts itself to try to make logical sense of it. On a large scale this can cause a balescream, and it puts tremendous strain on the Pattern and risks its destruction.

 

If someone dies normally, their thread ends in the current weaving of the Pattern. That doesn't risk reality, as the future isn't woven yet. If I burn that thread backwards, I'm pulling that thread out of an already woven tapestry, and all the threads entwined with it going back however far it burns are now looser than they were.

Edited by Agitel
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Well, the dark side atleast only stopped because unravelling the patter was bad for them. Completely destroying a soul doesnt seem so bad when you are still killing someone. Murder is still frowned upon by cultures who believe in reincarnation after all.

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The dark one is probably the dumbest baddie in the history of baddism. If the head clown instructed one his lower clowns semi to take the choedan kal instead of the adam in cadsuane's property in book 12 then he would have been free by now.

 

His last act of baddasery was 3000 years ago when he drove the male aes sedai and the dragon insane. What possible thing could he do now to surpass that in AMOL?

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The dark one is probably the dumbest baddie in the history of baddism. If the head clown instructed one his lower clowns semi to take the choedan kal instead of the adam in cadsuane's property in book 12 then he would have been free by now.

 

His last act of baddasery was 3000 years ago when he drove the male aes sedai and the dragon insane. What possible thing could he do now to surpass that in AMOL?

The DO almost managed to get Rand to destroy the world. Plan A didn't quite work out, but if the longshot big payoff scheme came that close to working I'm sure Rand will have the Dickens of a time handling the DO's safety scheme.

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Or at the very least, why wouldn't he just order him to be balefired. No more Dragon FOREVA!

balefire doesn't destroy forever, it just makes the person die prior to the moment he is killed. Further the DO has a specific time period to seize the soul of a person dead before he cannot anymore, balefire killing before the person died makes that window of opportunity much smaller, and some points, non-existent meaning the DO cannot reclaim those souls.

 

http://steelypips.or...7_balefire.html

 

Hmm. Seems you guys are right. Makes Balefire not seem so bad now. (In my mind at least)

 

Don't forget what it does to the pattern though. Both sides agreed to stop using it after all...

 

 

Nice. That one had been bothering me for a while, mostly because of Asmodean.

 

Anyway, I shouldn't be here. Must avert eyes from spoilers.

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..or maybe it's similar to a lot of religious mythologies, like Christianity, where the DO = Satan, and has control of evil doers when they die

 

This may be the hollywood version, but the biblical version is actually a bit different. Actually, the bible doesn't talk about a 'hell' so much at this point. It mentions Sheol (The grave), Gehenna, which is the dump outside of Jerusalem (which was always on fire), Hades (which is closest to the modern idea of 'hell'), and "Abraham's Bosom". Hades and Abraham's Bosom are described as the same place, divided by a massive chasm. The good guys went to one side (This is all before Jesus) and the bad guys to the other side. When Jesus came, he emptied Abraham's bosom and the people on the Hades side went to the day of Judgement.

 

From then on, there is no "hell" as we know it. Therefore, there is no 'realm' that Satan controls. However...

 

The eternal damnation location is a 'lake of fire' described in revelation where the people that fail the day of Judgement get tossed. This includes angels, demons and satan. So according to biblical theology, Satan will get tormented eternally just like humans. He doesn't have control of the evil-doers.

Edited by TLHansum
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My view on this is that the DO would have been able to torture Rand and make him pay after he died, and that would obviously be a pain that Rand didn't want Also with him dead, the Light would have a much harder chance of getting the DO back into prison. However, with Rand on the DOs side, it would be much easier for the DO to break out, and Dark Rand had potential to turn. Now that he is Light Rand, they will definitely not try to convert him any longer.

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Personally, I think the main reason he doesnt want Rand killed is simple. If Rand dies then the game resets, the Dark One corrupted all the male AS in order to corrupt LTT as he sealed the bore, he made himself open to the DO, and through his actions, he left all of Saidin vulnerable, Ishammael then confronts LTT trying to turn him to the dark, offering him Illyena etc. LTT kills himself and forms Dragonmount and the game is reset, nothing further can happen, the seals cant be broken, only Ishammael is free...

 

Rand is born and the game starts anew...

 

I think that as soon as Rand channeled the first time that the Seals were weakened so the DO could once again begin touching the world, Ishammael once again begins trying to convert him to the shadow, because the only way to win is to control Rand (The Dragon Soul).

 

If Rand died I think the seals would be strengthened again and nothing the Forsaken could do would change that, they would be able to wreak untold destruction, but it would do no good. If they wiped out all of humanity it would not mean that the DO has won. it would be stalemate.

 

think about the other worlds where they were the same except that the Darkside had wiped out the humans. It had been stated that if the Dark One wins in one universe he wins in all. To me this means that wiping out Humans does not equal victory.

 

So I dont think the DO would allow Rand to die, I think that if anyone was to even come close he would do everything he could to stop it. Until the right time at least

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Winter was already stuck in place when Rand was leaving the Two Rivers. Unless you speculate that he had channelled before Moiraine arrived the seals were weakening before that. They could of started weakening when he was born though.

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Winter was already stuck in place when Rand was leaving the Two Rivers. Unless you speculate that he had channelled before Moiraine arrived the seals were weakening before that. They could of started weakening when he was born though.

 

What makes you say Winter was already stuck in place?

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