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Andhaira

Why the heck did Rand destroy the Choden Kal?

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The Choden Kal is much more stronger than Callandor AND it doesn't have a flaw. It would have been an invaluable help on Tarmon Gaidon.

 

Why the heck did Rand destroy it? With it, he could just have gone to the Blight and wiped out all the Trollocs there by himself. Heck, he could have destroyed the seals and then once the Dark One got free, he could have challenged him to a one on one.

 

What gives?

 

Another question, why did the female Choden Kal get destroyed? Was it flawed?

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Guest PiotrekS

"Brute force would not contain him"

 

Apart from that? Plot convenience, I guess.

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Brute strength isn't everything. And Rand was literally moments away from destroying all of reality with it. That probably terrified him a little bit, just as LTT feared the ability to wield such great power 3,500 years before.

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it was never mentioned in the prophecies, he wondered over it himself how calandor a flawed sa angreal was mentioned but not the choden cal, and he figured that the flaw must be somehow needed. Even if its to just make him use it with 2 woman. Also yea why get even more powerfull, any sa angreal makes him far stronger than a forsaken or even all of them together anyway, even an angreal is enough. The choden kal served their purpose for the cleansing where raw strength was needed. He had to build the saidar tube strong enough to contain the saidin, and also use enough saidin to get it going down the tube essentially. Also the female one it probably was a flaw, just too powerfull for what it can withstand so it melted.

 

What I think about the last battle is it will rely alot on skill at weaving to repair the hole then brute force, once its repaired then thats it just like any other bit of the pattern, whereas its brute force sortof that was used for a patch.

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Guest PiotrekS

I've heard it said somewhere that the female Choeden Kal melted because Nynaeve, being weaker in OP than Rand, had to use it more intensively and up to its limit. Rand contributed a tiny bit more of his own strength and that made a difference. So it seems the cleansing was a close thing - the sa'angreals were barely strong enough to cope.

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rand did not destroy the choedan kal.

 

 

it was brandon/RJ way of giving the poor old sods from the dark side some chance at fighting. the baddies are so worthless in this series that having the kal in the hands of the forces of light would make the entire armies of shaitan at the blight as useless as a bunch of teapots.

 

 

now at least we can have some mano to mano action between dreadlords/fades/trollocs etc vs armies of the light.

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personally i think it is possible that callandor's flaw was intentional.

 

it could be that the remaining aes sedai managed to build some social network website and managed to come up collectively with a way to seal the bore forever. but ofcourse the method was lost as time went on and the breaking occurred.

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It should be noted that we have many instances of the Choedan Kal being disdained--Firstly, Solinda, the one responsible for securing Callandor for the Dragon gave the Choedan Kal Access Keys to the Aiel--so why not secure the Choedan Kal in Tear, and leave the flawed Callandor out of it? Secondly an Aes Sedai came to the Aiel to gather sa'angreal, whilst raving of Ishamael--yet left the Choedan Kal Access Keys. Why? Thirdly Shadar Haren uses Elza to gain the Domination Band--and at the same time could have claimed the Access Key to the male Choedan Kal. Yet doesn't, and leaves it. Why?

 

I've heard it said somewhere that the female Choeden Kal melted because Nynaeve, being weaker in OP than Rand, had to use it more intensively and up to its limit. Rand contributed a tiny bit more of his own strength and that made a difference. So it seems the cleansing was a close thing - the sa'angreals were barely strong enough to cope.

 

No, the female Choedan Kal melted because it was used as the stressor. Saidar, effectively, was the hands that wrung the taint from saidin. It was with saidar that Rand applied the constriction on saidin that forced out the taint, and it was the stress that placed on the saidar Choedan Kal that resulted in it melting. This is why the female melted, and the male did not, though there was by far more saidin involved than saidar.

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Guest PiotrekS

It should be noted that we have many instances of the Choedan Kal being disdained--Firstly, Solinda, the one responsible for securing Callandor for the Dragon gave the Choedan Kal Access Keys to the Aiel--so why not secure the Choedan Kal in Tear, and leave the flawed Callandor out of it? Secondly an Aes Sedai came to the Aiel to gather sa'angreal, whilst raving of Ishamael--yet left the Choedan Kal Access Keys. Why? Thirdly Shadar Haren uses Elza to gain the Domination Band--and at the same time could have claimed the Access Key to the male Choedan Kal. Yet doesn't, and leaves it. Why?

 

I've heard it said somewhere that the female Choeden Kal melted because Nynaeve, being weaker in OP than Rand, had to use it more intensively and up to its limit. Rand contributed a tiny bit more of his own strength and that made a difference. So it seems the cleansing was a close thing - the sa'angreals were barely strong enough to cope.

 

No, the female Choedan Kal melted because it was used as the stressor. Saidar, effectively, was the hands that wrung the taint from saidin. It was with saidar that Rand applied the constriction on saidin that forced out the taint, and it was the stress that placed on the saidar Choedan Kal that resulted in it melting. This is why the female melted, and the male did not, though there was by far more saidin involved than saidar.

 

Shouldn't the amount of the Power channeled through the sa'angreal determine the amount of "stress" placed on the device, and not what exactly what you do with it? The more Power you channel, the more you can do with it - e.g. apply a stronger constriction - so the amount of Power drawn through male or female Choeden Kal should determine whether there was a reason for it to melt or not. I don't exactly follow why do you say that the female Choedan Kal was used as a stressor? Or did you mean Saidar? Even so, any manipulations with the Power would not result in actual physical pressure out on the sa'angreal, right? So we have to return to the amounts of OP drawn through respective Choedan Kals and the strength of the channelers operating them, I think.

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Why the heck did Rand destroy it?

 

Didn't you just... feel it? I'm glad he did what he did, it was like he let something inside of him go, forgot the past, not only resisted the temptation, but completely removed it. He was just trying to destroy himself and uravel the Pattern with CK and he had done/had intended to do some nasty things with it before, becoming dangerously accustomed to the power it offered, and exclusively to him... "Too powerful, some had said. Too powerful ever to use. Too frightening". Being able to see again, he must have realised how terryfing his acting was. He gave up his pride (hoping that one will not give in to the temptation while letting it still be around is pride and foolishness). Besides, it was the highest time to think about building, instead of destroying.

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In terms of theory that could explain it, I understand it was that Rand had to do something with the power - like when he burned the trollocs in EotW.

 

Imagine Rand/Choedan Kal was a 44 gallon drum, when Rand started pulling lots of power into himself, he turned on a hose to fill the drum. Pulling power with the CK instead started filling it with a firehose. Rand had his epiphany just as the drum reached full and he had to either let it overflow and break the pattern, or burst the bottom of the drum and let it flow back into the True Source.

 

The question as to why RJ decided to destroy it - I have no idea, maybe because he wants Rand to use Callandor and doesn't want anyone able to hold more power

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Why the heck did Rand destroy it?

 

Didn't you just... feel it? I'm glad he did what he did, it was like he let something inside of him go, forgot the past, not only resisted the temptation, but completely removed it. He was just trying to destroy himself and uravel the Pattern with CK and he had done/had intended to do some nasty things with it before, becoming dangerously accustomed to the power it offered, and exclusively to him... "Too powerful, some had said. Too powerful ever to use. Too frightening". Being able to see again, he must have realised how terryfing his acting was. He gave up his pride (hoping that one will not give in to the temptation while letting it still be around is pride and foolishness). Besides, it was the highest time to think about building, instead of destroying.

 

 

nice sentiments but there are thousands and thousands of trollocs waiting to pour out of the blight into the borderlands. i am quite sure they are quite happy they don't have to deal with a mighty sangreal that could vapourise them in a flash

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I always thought the female Choedan Kal melted because it was mostly buried with only the hand and sphere above ground while the mail Choedan Kal had been dug out of the earth prior to its use.

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I am rand sedai...we dont need no stinkin Choedan Kal we got me....like a boss YAAH....

 

honestly never thought about it as ive only read that book once and im in the rereading process atm so maybe I might come up with something better.....or not the light only knows.

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Shouldn't the amount of the Power channeled through the sa'angreal determine the amount of "stress" placed on the device, and not what exactly what you do with it? The more Power you channel, the more you can do with it - e.g. apply a stronger constriction - so the amount of Power drawn through male or female Choeden Kal should determine whether there was a reason for it to melt or not. I don't exactly follow why do you say that the female Choedan Kal was used as a stressor? Or did you mean Saidar? Even so, any manipulations with the Power would not result in actual physical pressure out on the sa'angreal, right? So we have to return to the amounts of OP drawn through respective Choedan Kals and the strength of the channelers operating them, I think.

 

 

Firstly, I don't see why you think that what a sa'angreal is used to do wouldn't effect it. If strain is placed upon the weaves being made from the Power that it is serving as a conduit for, why wouldn't that strain then be upon the sa'angreal through which they flow--certainly this is how it works with channelers--note what happened to Sashelle, Ronaille and Irgaine when Rand crushed webs they were maintaining in fists of spirit. Or too note when Egwene touches the broken Choedan Kal in Tanchico, and it pulls the power from her, hurting her. They are the conduit, the channel, but it was the power that flowed through them upon which the stress was placed.

 

From there consider what Rand did--he tried to force saidar to mix with saidin--something it cannot ever do. The resistance that came up was then the force which provided the preasure to compress and wring saidin, forcing the taint out, yet it was saidar which provided the initial force, saidar that Rand stressed to make this work. Note the description.

 

Drawing on saidin, fighting it, mastering it in the deadly dance he knew so well, he forced it into the flowery weave of saidar. And it flowed through. Saidin and saidar, like and unlike, could not mix. The flow of saidin squeezed in on itself, away from the surrounding saidar, and the saidar pushed it from all sides, compressing it further, making it flow faster.

 

Saidin is passive, it retreats, squeezes in on itself, saidar is aggressive, it pushes--it is applying the stress. And that is not natural. It's normal response would be the same as saidin--to pull away, except it can't because Rand, using the Choedan Kal, forces it.

 

But as to your points--that you would have thought the amount of Power channeled mattered. I don't see why, myself--the buffer should protect against this--but even if it doesn't, we have this...

 

“I can’t say what was done, beyond scooping three miles out of the earth, or how it was done, but saidin was definitely used, too. The resonance was so strong, we should have been able to smell it. There was more saidin used than saidar, much more, Dragonmount beside a foothill. And that is all I can say, Mother.”

 

Dragonmount beside a foothill. Moghedien states that it was 'amazing that the Choedan Kal had survived continuous use for this long, at this level.' Yet, Dragonmount beside a foothill... this would indicate it was the stress of specifically what the female Choedan Kal was used to do, which the male was not--specifically apply the force, create the stress, which forced the compression of saidin.

 

Of course, you also suggested that Nynaeve's relative strength might be the cause--I see no evidence for this, and certainly Cyndane believed that Nynaeve was strong enough... '"Lews Therin has two of the access keys, one for each. And he knows a woman strong enough to use the female of the pair. He plans to use the Choedan Kal for his deed.", and when Osen'gar questions her knowledge: '"Cyndane knows many things," Moridin said softly, "and she tells me everything she knows. Everything."'

 

This fits too with Verin's statements--had Nynaeve been too weak it should have killed her, or left her unable to do anything but hold the Source. Nowhere is the thought expressed that it should destroy the Choedan Kal for her to try. Nor in truth is their any evidence that Nynaeve was too weak--indeed, everywhere its stated that she's not, and by a considerable margin.

 

So yeah, there is no evidence to sustain that it was weakness on Nynaeve's part, and evidence against the concept, and certainly we know it wasn't a result of the relative amount of the Power channeled, or the male key would have melted long before the female. Against that we have direct logic to show that if a weave is stressed, it can effect the conduit which maintains it, and that Rand in trying to force saidar to mix with saidin in order to create the compressive force needed to wring out the taint, he stressed saidar. I cannot rule out your idea, but this seems far stronger to me--saidar trying to do something it cannot do, and the tool forcing it to do that melts from the strain...

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I think after the setting up he no longer needed to channel much saidin, most of what was felt was the source being sucked out through the tube of saidar to shadar logoth. He didn't channel the entire source it went through itself like a siphon. He just had to get it started. Of course that would have required a tremendous amount of saidar to contain that. Thats what I think anyway, only a small amount of the saidin was channeled the rest came through just as raw power and not as threads or whatever it is.

 

But also as I said above the choden kal was just made too powerfull for itself to handle that much. From what I remember the ter angreal had the buffers to protect the channeler but the choden kal have no buffers at all, thats why channeling straight from the choden kal itself will kill you.

 

It could also have been Rand intentially destroyed the female one on purpose just to make sure no one could use it against him.

Edited by rand4747

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Something else to consider is that they were also untested, the Sa'angreal built in one place, and the access keys in another, not able to be tested out as the Shadow was advancing too quickly overrunning lots of the other areas controlled by the forces of light. But on one hand we have Asmo and Lanfear coveting the keys, and others totally missing the opportunity to take them. Then again, it could be that Semi didn't know what the male access key was, or saw no use for it as it wasn't for saidar.

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I had also thought that Messana had something to do with it. She sent Alvarian to tremalking during this time, I assume to sabotage the Choden Kal.

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Guest PiotrekS
Shouldn't the amount of the Power channeled through the sa'angreal determine the amount of "stress" placed on the device, and not what exactly what you do with it? The more Power you channel, the more you can do with it - e.g. apply a stronger constriction - so the amount of Power drawn through male or female Choeden Kal should determine whether there was a reason for it to melt or not. I don't exactly follow why do you say that the female Choedan Kal was used as a stressor? Or did you mean Saidar? Even so, any manipulations with the Power would not result in actual physical pressure out on the sa'angreal, right? So we have to return to the amounts of OP drawn through respective Choedan Kals and the strength of the channelers operating them, I think.

 

 

Firstly, I don't see why you think that what a sa'angreal is used to do wouldn't effect it. If strain is placed upon the weaves being made from the Power that it is serving as a conduit for, why wouldn't that strain then be upon the sa'angreal through which they flow--certainly this is how it works with channelers--note what happened to Sashelle, Ronaille and Irgaine when Rand crushed webs they were maintaining in fists of spirit. Or too note when Egwene touches the broken Choedan Kal in Tanchico, and it pulls the power from her, hurting her. They are the conduit, the channel, but it was the power that flowed through them upon which the stress was placed.

 

From there consider what Rand did--he tried to force saidar to mix with saidin--something it cannot ever do. The resistance that came up was then the force which provided the preasure to compress and wring saidin, forcing the taint out, yet it was saidar which provided the initial force, saidar that Rand stressed to make this work. Note the description.

 

Drawing on saidin, fighting it, mastering it in the deadly dance he knew so well, he forced it into the flowery weave of saidar. And it flowed through. Saidin and saidar, like and unlike, could not mix. The flow of saidin squeezed in on itself, away from the surrounding saidar, and the saidar pushed it from all sides, compressing it further, making it flow faster.

 

Saidin is passive, it retreats, squeezes in on itself, saidar is aggressive, it pushes--it is applying the stress. And that is not natural. It's normal response would be the same as saidin--to pull away, except it can't because Rand, using the Choedan Kal, forces it.

 

But as to your points--that you would have thought the amount of Power channeled mattered. I don't see why, myself--the buffer should protect against this--but even if it doesn't, we have this...

 

“I can’t say what was done, beyond scooping three miles out of the earth, or how it was done, but saidin was definitely used, too. The resonance was so strong, we should have been able to smell it. There was more saidin used than saidar, much more, Dragonmount beside a foothill. And that is all I can say, Mother.”

 

Dragonmount beside a foothill. Moghedien states that it was 'amazing that the Choedan Kal had survived continuous use for this long, at this level.' Yet, Dragonmount beside a foothill... this would indicate it was the stress of specifically what the female Choedan Kal was used to do, which the male was not--specifically apply the force, create the stress, which forced the compression of saidin.

 

Of course, you also suggested that Nynaeve's relative strength might be the cause--I see no evidence for this, and certainly Cyndane believed that Nynaeve was strong enough... '"Lews Therin has two of the access keys, one for each. And he knows a woman strong enough to use the female of the pair. He plans to use the Choedan Kal for his deed.", and when Osen'gar questions her knowledge: '"Cyndane knows many things," Moridin said softly, "and she tells me everything she knows. Everything."'

 

This fits too with Verin's statements--had Nynaeve been too weak it should have killed her, or left her unable to do anything but hold the Source. Nowhere is the thought expressed that it should destroy the Choedan Kal for her to try. Nor in truth is their any evidence that Nynaeve was too weak--indeed, everywhere its stated that she's not, and by a considerable margin.

 

So yeah, there is no evidence to sustain that it was weakness on Nynaeve's part, and evidence against the concept, and certainly we know it wasn't a result of the relative amount of the Power channeled, or the male key would have melted long before the female. Against that we have direct logic to show that if a weave is stressed, it can effect the conduit which maintains it, and that Rand in trying to force saidar to mix with saidin in order to create the compressive force needed to wring out the taint, he stressed saidar. I cannot rule out your idea, but this seems far stronger to me--saidar trying to do something it cannot do, and the tool forcing it to do that melts from the strain...

 

I have to say that your take on the problem is well thought through and convincing - certainly the quote about the relative amounts of Saidar and Saidin deals a might blow to my understanding of the situation!

 

Let me only explain my position re: amount of the Power putting pressure on the Choedan Kal. I pictured the sa'angreal in a similar way to a power plant - it produces energy (or, in our case, enhances Rand's and Nynaeve's ability to channel OP) which then could be used in any way. Any strain on the engines of the power plant could come from them working too hard (i.e. producing too much energy), not from any kind of hard work that energy is put into after leaving the power plant. The similarity between Power and energy is convincing because Power itself has no physical form - it is used to form weaves of Air or Water etc. and only those weaves interact with matter, not raw Power.

 

So I reasoned that raw Power, as it was channeled through Choedan Kal and then formed into specific weaves by Rand, could not interact with matter and could not cause any kind of stress on Choedan Kal, as though it (the Power) was a physical object whose mass created the pressure on the sa'angreal. The Power interacted with itself (there was repulsion between Saidar and Saidin) and with the Taint - the later explosion was the result of energy produced when the Taint was destroyed.

 

I also think that the buffer protects the channeler from drawing too much, not the sa'angreal itself. It is still possible to draw too much, but then the sa'angreal will face the consequences (melting?), not the channeler.

 

We've seen many instances where the amount of Power drawn was seen as a decisive factor in the questions of safety of the channelers, not the subsequent manipulation with the Power. When a channeler uses the Power to do something (e.g. lift somebody up on the flows of Air), the pressure equivalent to that person's weight is not inflicted upon the channeler. But when the channeler draws too much Power, it could result in some violent consequences (see LTT in the prologue).

 

You're probably right anyway :wink:

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Rand may have realized ultimately he could lose the access key and if a DF or Forsaken got it, it would be game over, he got what he needed out of it and now it was time to end it to protect the pattern, he wasn't chosen by the pattern to be the dragon for nothing

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I recall a past thread about this. I think it was during version 7 of this forum.

 

 

The saidar Choedan Kal, like another told, was destroyed during the Cleansing.

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I always thought the Choedan Kal access keys were sculptures made of almond bark chocolate. Rand "destroyed it" (as in ate it). He was denying himself of that delicious chocolate (since he was obviously on a diet) and that's the reason he was in a bad mood. Once he ate it, he's been happy ever since. He's finally realized that for one to be on a successful diet, one can't deny themselves of what they want. They need to make a lifestyle change and remove any negative thoughts.

During the Cleansing, Nynaeve's hands were simply sweaty. Thus the reason why that one melted.

 

Hope that helps!

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The Choden Kal is much more stronger than Callandor AND it doesn't have a flaw. It would have been an invaluable help on Tarmon Gaidon.

 

Why the heck did Rand destroy it? With it, he could just have gone to the Blight and wiped out all the Trollocs there by himself. Heck, he could have destroyed the seals and then once the Dark One got free, he could have challenged him to a one on one.

 

What gives?

 

Another question, why did the female Choden Kal get destroyed? Was it flawed?

And the fact that we don't know that Callandor is flawed. Just because Cadsuane thinks it is does not make it so. Rand had trouble with it in Book Eight, not because it was flawed, but because of the women using the Bowl of Winds. Remember, saidar was reverberating there as well. The Bowl was not Telarahrhiod's first choice when they went hunting via need, and the Bowl was only intended to work on a small area of a continent when it was made. But the the circle led by Windfinder's was able to use it for the whole world. As for the flaw of Callandor, i think the prophecy of all that he is being seized refers to the DO, not Rand. Min, I think, is just a tad blind in her worry.

As for the Choedan Kal, it was too powerful. Rand (as Lews) always felt that, and Rand as Rand came to agree, and the CK had fulfilled their to Creator-given purposes. First, cleansing the male half of the Source, then helping the DR achieve "re-integration" so that he no longer had a split-personality. Rand destroyed it so that he would never ever be tempted in case he decided to turn the Wheel against itself (Moridin's plan; the time Rand talked to Moridin in TAR was not an accident, methinks.)

As for the female CK, remember Moghedien remarking on how long they had been used and at what level. The male CK was just pulling Power and driving it through the conduit and filter. The female CK was maintaining the filter, and with a lot less Power than its counterpart was using. Basically, it was the most heavily used, least lubricated part of the machine. That's how I see it

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