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DRAGONMOUNT

A WHEEL OF TIME COMMUNITY

Asgard Thorin

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About Asgard Thorin

  • Birthday 01/01/1
  1. What do you folks mean by being 'emo'? Emotional? I agree wth you Sabio, btw. I agree 200%! Waiting years for Books that sucked really sucked, and they all sucked a bit, because the Taver'en Trinity did not advance, all three of them, in every Book, and Rand didn't really advance at all in Book Ten. I did like Book Eight, btw, if my previous left the impression of otherwise. Sorry to Multiquote you twice, Azrayne. But they were all reluctant heroes, especially Rand. He just got his reluctance out of the way at end of Three. "Stop!...I am the Dragon Reborn!" Yeah, Perrin seems whiny, but Mat had an absolute reversal, like someone threw a switch. "This has nothing to do with me!" He said to Rand in Book Five. "Thom we're gonna get rid of this letter as soon as we can!" (misquote from Book Three) He holds that attitude (mostly) through Book Ten, and only starts to wake up a little bit after his lover proves to be a Darkfriend. Even then staying as far from Rand as possible seems to be his main goal. Then in Book Eleven, he has an army, and realizes his love is being attacked, and the only way he'll get 'em out is battle. And he actually is honest with himself at that point (Eleven, Twelve, and Thirteen) when he is introspecting. That seems in complete contrast with all his previous introspection, to me. With Perrin at least we get to see the moments of self-discovery, albeit the most important ones take a long time to happen. And Rand's journey was also aggravating. His madness took him to the very edge and did not end until Book Twelve when he achieved 're-integration' to quote Semirhage, naturally and by himself which all the people from AoL (Forsaken +Rand) would say was remarkable at the least and impossible at the most. I understand why his madness went on so long. As soon as he threw it off, he would also throw off all efforts to turn him to the Shadow. "It is war, and not subterfuge, that will carry the day." Misquote(?) from Book Thirteen. Once Rand threw off his madness and achieved re-integration, the Last Battle began. I think it began the instant Rand started laughing upon Dragonmount. But until that madness was re-integrated, reading Rand's povs was very painful.
  2. A most excellent point, randsc, and well-said
  3. The problems with Books 7-10 were two-fold and hand-in-hand, as I understand it. Jordan had expected 'Three, four books. Six, tops. Absolutely tops!' (misquote?) So Books 1-6 were well-prepped and edited. (Five and Six even came out the same year, methinks!) But with Seven, he'd caught up to all his preparation, and the tale had grown in the telling, as Jordan quoted Tolkien. The first Six took just as long as the others to write. There simply was no active fanbase screaming for the next novel. So the two-fold problem; because the tale kept growing, he was never able to get past the baby-steps he took in each book (Plot Advancement Summary of Book One: Rand discovers he can channel. Of Two: Rand discovers that Moiraine wants him to be the Dragon Reborn. Of Three: Rand proves to himself that he is the Dragon Reborn...), and with the mounting pressure to produce something, Books Seven through Ten (and later on Twelve, though that was a far different matter) went through a much shorter editing cycle than their predecessors. I remember listening to Jordan's automated phone message for Book Eight: "I am still working on Path Of Daggers....but I wanted it to be right before I handed it over to Tor". Well, there was nothing right about it, at least from advancing Rand's pov, at least as I recall, but Mr. Jordan, God bless him, felt compelled to tell the whole story of every character who was and might be important, just to keep us guessing about what was going to happen. I agree with almost everyone that the girls povs dragged extremely, except Egwene's. Once she was separate from the other two, she really grew up to me. Book Seven was the best of them to me, except for the end of Book Nine. Book Seven has great Mat stuff, we meet a nemesis that is important to Mat (gholam) and we meet the towering titan of the Aes Sedai, Cadsuane. The resolution of the conflict Rand engages in at the end of it, however, is very poor. The enemy he fights there just kind of evaporates, so it has the feel that Rand did nothing in the whole Book. This was the one opponent that we do not see defeated, and ironically, it is the one enemy Mr. Jordan categorically said was done. It was almost like Jordan was subconsciously telling the whole world he had lost control of his epic. Book Eight has many good things but Rand is mostly treading water as everyone tries to catch up with him. Other than some bits where Rand is battling certain enemies, the whole thing is about characters that people hate (the girls, Perrin's Faiel problem) or about minor characters (Pevara, Cadsuane, Logain etc. (important, but still minor to me)). In Book Ten, Rand isn't even treading water. He did something hugely important at the end of Book Nine, the kind of thing that makes everyone sit up and take notice, and almost all of Book Ten is about those people sitting and taking noticing. In fact, Book Ten is actually overrated even as vilified as it is. I remember one sentence where Egween is performing some weave before the Hall, and the author talks for about three lines about how difficult it is for her to release the Power, but the memory is enough for the moment. That could have been much more condensed. Book Ten should be re-edited to cut such down, and perhaps even down to the point where it is no longer an independent volume. I think it could be and should be done, and from the tidal wave of fans who abandoned the series at Book Ten, I think almost everyone would say I have a fair point.
  4. This is sad. That means the Wheel of Time is done, and that I will not have anything else to read. I have no need to read the Encyclopedia, nor any desire to read such. I s'pose all things must end, but this has been part of my life so long that it is hard to believe it is done. I hoped for a better note to end on than arguing about the body-swap theory. I suppose I might come back to visit this site sometime, but it won't be the same. Until then, unto all, Peace favor your sword.
  5. Forgive me if I have missed this somewhere, but with the series over, I just don't get here as much as the days of old. Has there been any news on the proposed two othe prequel novels? Have they been published, are they still being written? We Brandon Sanderson write them? Have they been cancelled? Have I just missed word of them because I don't navigate this site much? Thanks.
  6. Yes, but Demandred might have thought it was disinformation, or that Rand would intend to go there after the Battle in Kandor. As for any quality issues, give Brandon Sanderson a break. RJ did very little to limit WOT's growth, and this was the last book; they had to stuff everything in it.I jhave to admit, Taim was a disappointment.
  7. I liked Demandred in Book Fourteen. He'd gone mad with obsession. Remember also, only Rand knew what Rand was going to do. He kept his intentions to himself, until he needed to tell people. Tha'ts how I see it, anyway.
  8. I think pride was involved, but remember, even Aiel could be Dark Friends. I think she was attacked by Aiel Dark Friends, and of course, DF's could and would be told about each other by the Forsaken. I imagine they had recognition symbols and signs as well. This seems to be the only logical conclusion, to me (Aes Sedai would not think wetlanders were Aiel, even with Compulsion, unless it was fatal Compulsion, the kind that would render them useless/Graendal-pet level)
  9. The main reason was a punishment? Perhaps. At least Ishy might have seen it that way, but the DO knew he wanted the Wheel to end. None of the other Chosen could he trust as Naeblis, since they wanted power. Ishy wanted oblivion.
  10. "Well, that's how most TV shows work. To say they are unconnected is silly - they are most definitely connected, following the same people, with stories following on from one another - what's that if not connected? They still had an ultimate goal, and they continued to work towards it." In all the episodes I remember, the characters were overwhelmed with the moment, the act of forcing themselves to exist. I suppose that was realistic, but it was not pleasant. Each episode focused on different characters, and it was not like they were making progress on the goal, they were just treading water and marking time. Granted, there were episodes where progress must have happened, but I missed those, I last saw a complete episode in the second season, maybe, and the last episode I enjoyed was the one where Starbuck was flying a Cylon Raider. Nor did I enjoy the constant waffling by the Cylons (why did they fight them on one hand, and act like they were conducting a scientific experiment on the other, observing their test subjects?) So, that is why I say they weren't connected. Each story just focused on all these different people battling severe depression. Realistic, perhaps, but certainly not pleasant. That was my point of view. Yours obviously is a different point of view. More power to you. I didn't like the series. And did they ever explain who how and why that note about human-form Cylons was left in Adama's office? And why was that canon and not disinformation?
  11. "In terms of Americans' short attention spans, it's worth noting that your series tend to run to over twenty episodes, while ours are commonly 6-13 episodes long. Your networks expect to keep your attention for half a year, ours about a month and a half. Much is made of shorter attention spans today, and I'm not entirely convinced. (Classic Doctor Who lasted 26 years, by the way.) BSG was hardly a bunch of unconnected stories - it had pretty clear plot and character arcs. The problems with the show only really caught up to it after you stopped watching - they were unable to satisfactorily resolve a number of their plot threads, there was a lot of wheel spinning, and so on." Sheesh! Thanks for shooting down my jokes! How often are you going to have an American be self-deprecating? Yes, there was a lot of wheel spinning. Overall, BSG was trying to get to Earth, but the individual stories had little to do with that. They were despite the story arcs, what happened to the characters, it seemed to me, though its been a long time. The episode where Billy was shot finally killed all my fan-ness for the series, but the last episode I really enjoyed was the one where Starbuck and a Cylon shot each other down. By Baltar's election, the series was just rambling on, iimho. The goal was the same, but what we saw were just stories of people existing. That's why I say they were unconnected. Twenty-six years? That's impressive. It still might have been a plan from the beginning, since there was a prophecy to prep the Light for failure by testing theDragon. If he failed, they were to kill him, and let the final days have their storm
  12. Congratulations Kandor, and nice to here from you! I believe you have a good point, and no need to apologize for your English.
  13. "For Sammael, bear in mind Rand was there to kill him, and was unlikely to give up. Getting rid of Sammael might be seen as the easiest solution (especially if Rand dies in the fight instead - it's win/win). You don't need to invent complex plots and master plans." I would still count this as a sacrifice. " Given the timeline situation in the last three books, we cannot say with any degree of reliability that it happened to the instant. But even if we accept that premise, it doesn't tell us anything useful." I must respectfully disagree. This is a definite shift-gears moment. We don't ever really get the whole of Rand's plan ever laid out for us (though Book 14 does layout the last of it entire) but that does not mean Rand didn't have one. Moridin/Ishy would have had them too. He wasn't just winging it. Now he may have adapted his plans on the fly, but he still had them. Also, getting rid of the other Forsaken, in case they found out, once the DO gave him approval, would have been a strategic necessity. I can't really argue that having Rand collared would have done the DO intentions a disservice, but then a captured Dragon would not have guaranteed his victory. A turned one however.... he'd buy that for a dollar! Fifty years? But, BBC America only came up with the show ten years ago! (Sucks his thumb, winks). I meant it was a continuous series, Stargate SG-1 ran for ten years. No other sci-fi series generated in America (not meaning my country with that usage; I don't look at Canadians as foreigners, just as a slightly different kind of American, one with less baggage. On the downside for them, they have to use the metric system) has lasted that long. Not Star Trek, not TNG, Farscape, Babylon Five, none of them. X-Files went eleven, but half the time was hardly sci-fi. Some episodes of BSG were okay, but the series had no logic to it. It was a bunch of unconnected stories using the same characters. I gave up on it after Baltar was elected and the Cylons found them. I think the Robot Chicken spoof was pretty accurate; the guy just threw darts at a dartboard to come up with his Cylons (did they ever explain why how and who left that note in Adama's office in the miniseries? There's a glaring plot flaw!) Ten years for a Sci-fi series in the US? That's unprecedented, and ain't no comparison given my countrymen's short attention span...what were we talking about? (Ya' shouldn't joke about Americans 'cept iff'n ya're one...and I are one)
  14. I presume that Moridin sacrificed them both for he wanted to die, to end his own suffering (I take Rand's view on this to heart). Else why would the DO recycle him and make him Naeblis? Ishy was the only Forsaken to truly grasp what the DO's winning would have meant. Therefore, I presume that Sammael and Semirhage were deliberate sacrifices, and that the dream where Rand met Ishy-Reborn was an actual ploy by Moridin to get Rand to Break the Wheel with the Choedan Kal. Else why did the LB begin the instant (or near enough) that Rand Broke the last Choedan Kal? Why else was there a Prophecy of the Dragon, saying the Dragon must be slain if he fails the test? Yet I admit I only have that evidence and the logic of the story to affect (and effect) my presumption. Yet ultimately, that must begin to satisfy people, methinks. All this looking up on-line of 'what-did-the-author-mean?' rather defeats the purpose of the Books themselves. I doubt RJ would have wanted so much revealed when he was a RIAFO-maniac. That is also part-and-parcel-and-participle to my stance that no BBS actually occurred; I doubt RJ would have said it, one way or another. Of course, I could be wrong.... Mayhap Brandon doth be tight lipped for not knowing? Or could RJ have forbidden certain revelations? You don't watch Stargate? Well, whatever are differences I must chide thee for this(okay, enough of the Shakespearean English!) I must highly recommend it, particularly SG-1. Atlantis was killed too soon, but had become a bit repetitive, though I loved it, and SGU was killed just when it actually started getting good. One warning about SGU, though. It has no intro music and no title sequence, just that annoying thing from Battlestar Galactica where the intro evolved into each episode so that there was no name of the episode (in BSG at least) and which was one of the reasons why BSG sucked sooooooooooo much. (That, and the fact it was as plotless as Dune). Yet of SG-1 I can best say it by quoting the advertisements for it: "The longest running sci-fi adventure in American television history." There is a reason for this.
  15. The only Brotherless who had discussed this were the ones in Malden. We have no idea how many of the Shaido there were Brotherless. (pretty sure that) The last we see of the Shaido Wise Ones is of them sending runners to find the rest of the Shaido and tell them to head back to the Waste. So the Brotherless that come to their senses return to the Waste instead of joining their clans, the Shaido and those left with them also return to the Waste, thus missing the Last Battle. This is going to be difficult for the rest of the Aiel to accept or forgive. EDITED TO ADD: Also every Aiel has heard the truth about their past, and are aware that the majority of Clan Chiefs and Wise Ones agree and accept that Rand was telling the truth. That means the Shaido and Brotherless chose to believe the lie, then proceeded to break ji e toh in several other ways as well. Yeah, but we don't need to see the Shaido after Malden. That doesn't mean they were untouched by the Last Battle. And what happens when the Shaido clan chief (the new one) comes out of the columns, absolutely livid with the surviving Wise Ones for getting swept along by Sevanna. We know Sevanna had some opposition (the Wise One whose murder they blamed on Galina). If the Shaido survive (and I can see large numbers of Brotherless heading to the Blight to die fighting) the other Aiel wouldn't go far out of their way to render them extinct. I think. Nor would they go out of their way to help them much. But if the Shaido got a new clan chief, one who admitted that the car'a'carn was Rand, and one who admitted his people had toh, the Wise Ones would persuade the chiefs to not call for blood feud, at least until after Tarmon Gaidon. Once the chief admitted that toh, and the Wise Ones-corrupted were gone, then it would be a matter of meeting the toh. I doubt the Shaido would be worth declaring blood feud over, i.e. the other clans wouldn't call blood feud because there would be no honor in attacking a clan that weakened. It could go either way, I s'pose, but that's how I see it. Still, if they survive it'll be centuries before they are trusted to uphold the Dragon's Peace. It's not clear whether the new clan chief will have made it through the columns before Avi changed them. Either way it doesn't matter, the Aiel each had a choice individually to believe Rand or not, they knew that the majority of the Wise Ones and Clan Chiefs sided with rands version of events, and each had the option between staying with their Clan or joining their Society, as proven both by the Brotherless and the Shaido Maidens that joined Rand. A Shaido Chief coming out and saying 'yup we got that wrong' isn't going to make any difference to the choice that they made. And the issue of toh. The Aiel had to fight in the Last Battle to 'pay back' their toh for abandoning the Way of the Leaf, the Shaido will never be able to pay this back (even if (and it's a big if) they made it to the Blight in time to fight outlier battles, fighting outlier battles isn't what they were needed to do), so may never be able to rejoin the rest of the Aiel. Indeed it seems that the remaining Aiel have moved on, their purpose has changed while the Shaido are back where they were with no real possibility of it changing. This marks a separation almost as complete as the split between the Aiel and the Way of the Leaf, except the Shaido become the counter to the Jenn Aiel. But I suspect you're right, the Aiel won't bother to hunt them down, nor do I see any sort of reconciliation between them. I can see such a clan chief trading Shaido Wise Ones to Shara for Cairhienin. I doubt Aviendha's awakening the second phase of the glass columns would prevent Bendhuin (or whomever) from becoming a clan chief. The Aiel would still see the past the first time. The second time, the potential future. And just because we don't see the Shaido, doesn't mean they didn't accept that Couladin was a fraud before Rand went to Shayol Ghul. But the other Aiel would have a reason to keep the Shaido around regardless; training. They can, and will for the foreseeable future, be able to raid the Shaido. The people of Suladric get to become the Dragon's Punching-Bag.for the other ten, eleven clans, at least once their numbers recover. The other clans are all at Dragon's Peace with each other. I wonder what happens the first time a Brotherless goes through the glass columns.... Eventually some of the Brotherless/Shaido must come to realise Couladin was a fraud. Admitting such a toh would gain much respect, I think. At least for a common Aiel. Therava and her minions? Pssffph! They are most certainly doomed.
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