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Egwene versus Perrin.. who is better in the TAR/Wolf Dream?


Dreggs Morlock
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Ok, here is what got me thinking:

 

 

Brandon

Perrin does something different. Also, Egwene was caught off guard and had been spending a lot of time lately doing other things.

Brandon

It would be unwise to assume that Perrin is better at Tel'aran'rhiod than she is because of that moment. He had just spent weeks training...

Brandon

...specifically to fight like that in Tel'aran'rhiod, while Egwene has been forced to fight other fights and let herself get a tad rusty.

 

This was taken from Terez's postings of interviews; go there now to spend hours reading good material!!

http://www.theoryland.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=372

 

But BS got me thinking on who WOULD be better at dealing with an enemy in TAR. I think Egwene's will is strong enough to outdo Perrin in a stare down, but that is not the question I have... could Egwene beat Isam in a battle such as the one PErrin had? Further, are the wise ones that are dream-walkers comparable to your average wolf? I'm thinking of something like Amys versus Hopper.

 

PLEASE NOTE: If you have problems with Egwene, please skip this thread. I'm a big fan of hers, and Perrin has been in the doghouse in my opinion for the last 3-4 books. I DO like him as of ToM though. Try to be fair, no Egwene bashing!!!

 

Found this as well, which might (or might not) add to the discussion:

Q: Much has been made of Egwene’s thought to tie up Perrin in the midst of a battle that could have brought about his death if he had not been able to stop her. Such apparent negligence is shocking considering her knowledge of how quickly things can happen in Tel'aran'rhiod. Can you Explain Egwene’s thought process? Did she intend to leave Perrin there while she finished the battle?

A: (not verbatim) Egwene thought she was doing the right thing. She was acting as the Amyrlin and trying to make sure that he would be safe and out of the way of danger. She was not going to tie him up and leave him, she would have brought him somewhere safe away from the danger of the fight and left him there until it was over.

Q: (my follow up) Who is stronger in Tel'aran'rhiod?

A: (not verbatim) They are both very strong, but in different ways. Perrin is very strong instinctively. Like the wolves, he makes decisions based on instinct while in Tel'aran'rhiod. Egwene plans out her moves rather than going by feeling as Perrin does. If the two were matched against each other the outcome would entirely be based on what type of encounter it was.

Edited by Dreggs Morlock
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Like they said, BS was probably implying that Egwene had a stronger presence in TAR, but if it's a kill or be killed dog fight, I'd vote for Perrin. Egwene just lazes around to much and haveto TAR combat training. While Perrin learned TAR/Wolfdream for just that. Of course potentially Egwene could probably overcome Perrin if she does combat train in TAR in preparation for their match up.

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Like they said, BS was probably implying that Egwene had a stronger presence in TAR, but if it's a kill or be killed dog fight, I'd vote for Perrin. Egwene just lazes around to much and haveto TAR combat training.

 

Defeating a Forsaken has to count for something, that can't quite be called lazing around. Nevertheless if I had to choose between the two in a fight right now it would be Perrin.

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I think the one with more info about OP(here Egwene) is in more danger in TaR.

For example, Egwene knows balefire is a extremely dangerous attack, and will most likely chose to dodge the attack, because even if 1% of her will think that she may not be able to stop it with willpower alone, she'll be in danger.

For Perrin that balefire attack was similar with the wawes of air Eg used to tie him up in a middle of the hall while a bunch of BA sisters were around( not her best idea)

As lond as the AS/WO(to a lesser degree) chose to use power rather than simply command the TaR itself, Perrin will have an advantage.

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I think egwene's ego will potentially put her in danger in TAR while Perrin's beard will benefit him.

 

PLUS as it's said above the use of his beard would most likely be instinctive.

 

If the two were matched against each other the outcome would entirely be based on what type of encounter it was.

Also, based on the above quote I would think that if they were fighting in an impromptu battle, Perrin wins. If Egwene planned ahead of time, she could win.

 

Although I believe that if Perrin and Egwene had EQUAL training time in their respective ways . . . Perrin hands down.

Edited by rcfleming4
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Perrin is the TAR expert among the main characters. It has been clear that that will be one of his roles, if not his main role, for some time.

 

In terms of personality traits and how they enter into this: Perrin is much better than Egwene about things not going as planned. I think that this is a wolf trait; he deals with things as they are, not as they "should" be or as he planned them to be. Egwene, on the other hand, is a planner. When her plans go awry, she gets captured by the bad guys doesn't adjust with much dexterity.

 

I find the form of the OP hilarious. "I like Egwene, and don't like Perrin, so don't post if you don't agree with me!!!!" What the hell is the point of posting, then? Mutual affirmation, free of uncomfortable dissent? How silly.

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(that's not what the OP said, as i think you know, because you are sharp and literate.)

 

popularity contests aside, i think from the interview quotes that the OP's assessment of the author's statements in his 2nd post is correct. i don't know how such fights would play out in the real dreamworld, but in the WOT one, brandon seems to be on the record fairly unambiguously.

Edited by cindy
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It's not what the OP said, but it's a fair paraphrase.

 

In any case, I would point out that this:

 

"It would be unwise to assume that Perrin is better at Tel'aran'rhiod than she is because of that moment. He had just spent weeks training..."

 

is completely nonsensical, and I don't know what BS was thinking. If two people know the same amount about something, and then one spends weeks training, to the point that he can best the other, then he is in fact better. Maybe not irreversibly better, but better. If Egwene took a few weeks off to do nothing but train in TAR, might she beat Perrin? Sure. Has she? No. Ergo, Perrin's better.

 

I also don't know how you can leave the personalities of the characters out of this, regardless of what the OP might prefer. If there were in fact a showdown between Egwene and Perrin, I would bet on Egwene, not because of what we know about the relative skill levels of the characters, but because of what we know about their personalities. Particularly regarding how far they are willing to go in order to achieve their ends. The only way Perrin would ever be as ruthless as Egwene is if Faile's life were at stake.

Edited by randsc
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It's not what the OP said, but it's a fair paraphrase.

 

In any case, I would point out that this:

 

"It would be unwise to assume that Perrin is better at Tel'aran'rhiod than she is because of that moment. He had just spent weeks training..."

 

is completely nonsensical, and I don't know what BS was thinking. If two people know the same amount about something, and then one spends weeks training, to the point that he can best the other, then he is in fact better. Maybe not irreversibly better, but better. If Egwene took a few weeks off to do nothing but train in TAR, might she beat Perrin? Sure. Has she? No. Ergo, Perrin's better.

 

I also don't know how you can leave the personalities of the characters out of this, regardless of what the OP might prefer. If there were in fact a showdown between Egwene and Perrin, I would bet on Egwene, not because of what we know about the relative skill levels of the characters, but because of what we know about their personalities. Particularly regarding how far they are willing to go in order to achieve their ends. The only way Perrin would ever be as ruthless as Egwene is if Faile's life were at stake.

 

It really depends on whether one is talking of current ability or potential ability. As things stand now I'd definitely say Perrin. Egwene's training (which ended some time ago) was never focused on fighting in TAR whereas Perrin's was about almost nothing else but fighting.

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In any case, I would point out that this:

 

"It would be unwise to assume that Perrin is better at Tel'aran'rhiod than she is because of that moment. He had just spent weeks training..."

 

is completely nonsensical, and I don't know what BS was thinking. If two people know the same amount about something, and then one spends weeks training, to the point that he can best the other, then he is in fact better. Maybe not irreversibly better, but better. If Egwene took a few weeks off to do nothing but train in TAR, might she beat Perrin? Sure. Has she? No. Ergo, Perrin's better.

 

I was just about to say that.

 

It's pretty clear in TOM that Perrin is in fact more skilled than Egwene prior to their encounter. Witness his hiding in the nightmare to retrieve the dreamspike, or his refusal to accept Aes Sedai weaves as reality.

 

Egwene, on the other hand, treats TAR like real life in spite of her training with the Wise Ones.

 

After their encounter, I think Perrin loses that advantage, and BS's comment holds more ground.

Edited by Hybrid
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I just hope Egwene doesn't become perfect at everything or the Taveren can go home.

I believe the comment about if any part of her believes the balefire were real is correct. As much as I hate her, I think her will is strong enough to make that leap. My question is is it strong enough to believe one thing in TAR and another in the real world.

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Hmmm... its hard to say.

 

Egwene seems pretty adept at moving about TAR, manipulating it to her advantage, etc. Perrin is very good at combat, and, as someone above me pointed out, hiding in nightmares- I don't see Egwene doing this as readily. I agree with randsc that Egwene is a planner, and Perrin better at acting on instinct, and I think perhaps this has to do with Egwene being in control, or rather, not liking NOT being in control of the situation.

 

Leaving aside questions of their ruthlessness- assuming it did come down to a fight (say one or the other had been turned to the shadow, or Faile was in danger), I think Perrin would win. Egwene's strength in TAR is her ability to manipulate it- she cannot fight Perrin with the OP, he'll simply brush it off- and this is where Perrin's strength at instinctive acting might come in handy- he may be better able to adapt to her fighting style than she to his.

 

I take Brandon's comments as a measure of their reasonably equal skill level, rather than him saying Egwene is better. Bearing in mind, that in the scene he is referring to, Perrin shows up in the tower, brushes off Egwene's weaves like they are nothing (as indeed they are to him), basically swats away Balefire, which she thinks is impossible, and basically leaves her gaping after him. Without saying "Look, Egwene was distracted at that time, and she didn't realise Perrin's ability in TAR", the scene makes it look like Perrin simply owns Egwene in TAR ability, and RJ/BS seem to envision the two of them as both being strong, but in different aspects.

 

So, if its a question of who would win in a fight, its Perrin, for me. In terms of overall strength in TAR- probably about equal, based on Brandon's comments.

 

Also, whilst I appreciate the OP simply meant that they didn't want their thread to descend into Egwene bashing, which is fair enough, telling people to stay away if they have a problem with Egwene, because you like Egwene and not Perrin, does kind of give off the impression that they don't really want a discussion, even if that's not really what they meant to say.

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Perrin is the TAR expert among the main characters. It has been clear that that will be one of his roles, if not his main role, for some time.

 

In terms of personality traits and how they enter into this: Perrin is much better than Egwene about things not going as planned. I think that this is a wolf trait; he deals with things as they are, not as they "should" be or as he planned them to be. Egwene, on the other hand, is a planner. When her plans go awry, she gets captured by the bad guys doesn't adjust with much dexterity.

 

I find the form of the OP hilarious. "I like Egwene, and don't like Perrin, so don't post if you don't agree with me!!!!" What the hell is the point of posting, then? Mutual affirmation, free of uncomfortable dissent? How silly.

You know as well as I the Egwene haters can and DO destroy threads like this, and that takes all the fun out of it. I didn't say I dislike Perrin; I said he was in the doghouse for the last few book with his "I don't wanna..." attitude. You can like characters while disliking what they are doing, for the record.

 

As far as training giving Perrin no advantage, watch anything from the military channel to a sports game; someone preparing for an event or competition always has an advantage over someone competent but has not been "in the loop", so to speak. This is why even SEAL members are always training even if the world is quiet; they have to continually keep their edge. That is what BS was referring to, in my opinion.

 

Sorry if I did color the discussion right out of the chute; it was not my intent. I only wanted to tell the Egwene haters, "We get it, you don't like Egwene."

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In any case, I would point out that this:

 

"It would be unwise to assume that Perrin is better at Tel'aran'rhiod than she is because of that moment. He had just spent weeks training..."

 

is completely nonsensical, and I don't know what BS was thinking. If two people know the same amount about something, and then one spends weeks training, to the point that he can best the other, then he is in fact better. Maybe not irreversibly better, but better. If Egwene took a few weeks off to do nothing but train in TAR, might she beat Perrin? Sure. Has she? No. Ergo, Perrin's better.

 

I was just about to say that.

 

It's pretty clear in TOM that Perrin is in fact more skilled than Egwene prior to their encounter. Witness his hiding in the nightmare to retrieve the dreamspike, or his refusal to accept Aes Sedai weaves as reality.

 

Egwene, on the other hand, treats TAR like real life in spite of her training with the Wise Ones.

 

After their encounter, I think Perrin loses that advantage, and BS's comment holds more ground.

 

Funny, I made a similar argument about the Galad v Gawyn BS quote and everyone said I was going against God. I won't do the same by re-quoting the author and calling you a fool. Instead, I suggest that Egwene wouldn't fight Slayer that way, she wouldn't chase him around and fight him, she'd just will him to be in front of her and then will him to be trapped somehow, or tied up, or dead. Whatever. That's what BS was referring to when he said she was rusty. She had forgotten that. Fairly clear that she now remembers, given what she did to Mesaana.

 

What they do is different, so all this "how can she be better if he has had more training?" means nothing. What they do, is not the same, so training time is not relevant. So BS' point about them being different isn't surprise vs planning or something so simple. It's more a micro-macro view of TAR. If Egwene were to go up against someone as strongly willed as her, she likely couldn't use TAR to buff her own instinctual fighting powers as well as Perrin. I think Perrin would have fared better against Mesaana if he were the one chasing her around. But anyone Egwene can out willpower is basically a slave to her in TAR. Perrin glides through TAR like a pro, yes. But Egwene gets TAR to do what she wants for her.

 

Perrin is the TAR expert among the main characters. It has been clear that that will be one of his roles, if not his main role, for some time.

 

In terms of personality traits and how they enter into this: Perrin is much better than Egwene about things not going as planned. I think that this is a wolf trait; he deals with things as they are, not as they "should" be or as he planned them to be. Egwene, on the other hand, is a planner. When her plans go awry, she gets captured by the bad guys doesn't adjust with much dexterity.

 

I find the form of the OP hilarious. "I like Egwene, and don't like Perrin, so don't post if you don't agree with me!!!!" What the hell is the point of posting, then? Mutual affirmation, free of uncomfortable dissent? How silly.

You know as well as I the Egwene haters can and DO destroy threads like this, and that takes all the fun out of it. I didn't say I dislike Perrin; I said he was in the doghouse for the last few book with his "I don't wanna..." attitude. You can like characters while disliking what they are doing, for the record.

 

As far as training giving Perrin no advantage, watch anything from the military channel to a sports game; someone preparing for an event or competition always has an advantage over someone competent but has not been "in the loop", so to speak. This is why even SEAL members are always training even if the world is quiet; they have to continually keep their edge. That is what BS was referring to, in my opinion.

 

Sorry if I did color the discussion right out of the chute; it was not my intent. I only wanted to tell the Egwene haters, "We get it, you don't like Egwene."

 

Apparently that one didn't get it.

Edited by Kael Pyralis
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Perrin is the TAR expert among the main characters. It has been clear that that will be one of his roles, if not his main role, for some time.

 

In terms of personality traits and how they enter into this: Perrin is much better than Egwene about things not going as planned. I think that this is a wolf trait; he deals with things as they are, not as they "should" be or as he planned them to be. Egwene, on the other hand, is a planner. When her plans go awry, she gets captured by the bad guys doesn't adjust with much dexterity.

 

I find the form of the OP hilarious. "I like Egwene, and don't like Perrin, so don't post if you don't agree with me!!!!" What the hell is the point of posting, then? Mutual affirmation, free of uncomfortable dissent? How silly.

You know as well as I the Egwene haters can and DO destroy threads like this, and that takes all the fun out of it. I didn't say I dislike Perrin; I said he was in the doghouse for the last few book with his "I don't wanna..." attitude. You can like characters while disliking what they are doing, for the record.

 

As far as training giving Perrin no advantage, watch anything from the military channel to a sports game; someone preparing for an event or competition always has an advantage over someone competent but has not been "in the loop", so to speak. This is why even SEAL members are always training even if the world is quiet; they have to continually keep their edge. That is what BS was referring to, in my opinion.

 

Sorry if I did color the discussion right out of the chute; it was not my intent. I only wanted to tell the Egwene haters, "We get it, you don't like Egwene."

 

With that statement, BS admitted that at the moment Perrin is stronger, but if Egwene will train more, she will close the gap.

Of course, Perrin can keep improving as well, so maybe he will keep his edge.

I don't have the book at the moment, but I remember that in Eg's test as an Accepted, in the future part of the test, she tells another AS(or just thinks) that she'll have to thank Perrin for the pointers he gave her regarding TaR.

Since at that moment, she had no idea whatsoever that Perrin could play in TaR, I think that future was a possible one, and Perrin seemed to be able to give Eg lessons about TaR.

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With that statement, BS admitted that at the moment Perrin is stronger, but if Egwene will train more, she will close the gap.

Of course, Perrin can keep improving as well, so maybe he will keep his edge.

I don't have the book at the moment, but I remember that in Eg's test as an Accepted, in the future part of the test, she tells another AS(or just thinks) that she'll have to thank Perrin for the pointers he gave her regarding TaR.

Since at that moment, she had no idea whatsoever that Perrin could play in TaR, I think that future was a possible one, and Perrin seemed to be able to give Eg lessons about TaR.

 

Actually, Perrin taught her how to throw a punch, not anything related to the World of Dreams.

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With that statement, BS admitted that at the moment Perrin is stronger, but if Egwene will train more, she will close the gap.

Of course, Perrin can keep improving as well, so maybe he will keep his edge.

I don't have the book at the moment, but I remember that in Eg's test as an Accepted, in the future part of the test, she tells another AS(or just thinks) that she'll have to thank Perrin for the pointers he gave her regarding TaR.

Since at that moment, she had no idea whatsoever that Perrin could play in TaR, I think that future was a possible one, and Perrin seemed to be able to give Eg lessons about TaR.

 

Actually, Perrin taught her how to throw a punch, not anything related to the World of Dreams.

 

Meh, close enough.

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With that statement, BS admitted that at the moment Perrin is stronger, but if Egwene will train more, she will close the gap.

Of course, Perrin can keep improving as well, so maybe he will keep his edge.

I don't have the book at the moment, but I remember that in Eg's test as an Accepted, in the future part of the test, she tells another AS(or just thinks) that she'll have to thank Perrin for the pointers he gave her regarding TaR.

Since at that moment, she had no idea whatsoever that Perrin could play in TaR, I think that future was a possible one, and Perrin seemed to be able to give Eg lessons about TaR.

 

Actually, Perrin taught her how to throw a punch, not anything related to the World of Dreams.

 

 

As I said, I did not had the book and my memory was a little foggy about that episode. But this counts as well. If they are at an equal footing, Perrin can use an the old KO punch. It will really work against Egwene because it will surprise her, and the reverse will just make him laugh(unless she uses a kick to the...Hmmm, it depends on which will hit first. Probably Perrin).

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If I'm honest, I think Egwene could actually defeat Slayer while Perrin could not (as things stand)... depending on the situtation. Perrin's skill in TAR seems very out and out combat based; while Egwene has tricks Perrin does not (the "think someone stupid" one for example).

 

It really depends who sets the tempo and battleground. If Perrin started on Egwene, he'd win. If Egwene started on Perrin, she'd win. Different styles, neither is equipped to deal with the other.

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