Least Favorite Character

[zerachiel76]

I can't really hate Alanna for what she did to Rand, as I suspect Verin might have played a role in making her do it, with a help of some suggestive compulsion. Besides she's suffered greatly since then because of her actions.

 

i was thinking the same thing. other than bonding, she hasn't really done much else wrong and she suffers through just about the entire series. but she was also fairly likable before all of the bonding happened anyway, so i don't really like to hold it against her

 

 

I find this forgiveness of Alanna unbelieveable, after all she did was rape someone. Indeed Nynaeve and Egwene seem to think they will bond people as well whether the person wants it or not so apparently they condone rape as well. Typical double standards in my opinion. So to paraphrase the above "other than raping someone she hasn't done much else wrong and suffers through the entire series". Good I say, she deserves it.

 

However my biggest hatred goes to Tylin for the same reason: rape with a deadly weapon (threatening Mat with a dagger in ACOS). I cheered longest and loudest when she died and think the gholam actually did the world a favour in killing her. In fact I hope the whole of Ebou Dar get balefired or turned into a glass lake in Tarmon Gaidon for their attitude that men are worthless expendables who women are allowed to kill with impunity.

 

Nynaeve, Egwene, Elaine and Faile are all up there too for the normal reasons I won't go into.

[Suttree]

I find this forgiveness of Alanna unbelieveable, after all she did was rape someone. Indeed Nynaeve and Egwene seem to think they will bond people as well whether the person wants it or not so apparently they condone rape as well. Typical double standards in my opinion. So to paraphrase the above "other than raping someone she hasn't done much else wrong and suffers through the entire series". Good I say, she deserves it.

 

However my biggest hatred goes to Tylin for the same reason: rape with a deadly weapon (threatening Mat with a dagger in ACOS). I cheered longest and loudest when she died and think the gholam actually did the world a favour in killing her. In fact I hope the whole of Ebou Dar get balefired or turned into a glass lake in Tarmon Gaidon for their attitude that men are worthless expendables who women are allowed to kill with impunity.

 

So here is the problem all to often when the topic touches on AS and gender in the WoT. Some very valid points get buried under a mountain of hyperbole to the point that it is almost impossible to take seriously.

[zerachiel76]

I find this forgiveness of Alanna unbelieveable, after all she did was rape someone. Indeed Nynaeve and Egwene seem to think they will bond people as well whether the person wants it or not so apparently they condone rape as well. Typical double standards in my opinion. So to paraphrase the above "other than raping someone she hasn't done much else wrong and suffers through the entire series". Good I say, she deserves it.

 

However my biggest hatred goes to Tylin for the same reason: rape with a deadly weapon (threatening Mat with a dagger in ACOS). I cheered longest and loudest when she died and think the gholam actually did the world a favour in killing her. In fact I hope the whole of Ebou Dar get balefired or turned into a glass lake in Tarmon Gaidon for their attitude that men are worthless expendables who women are allowed to kill with impunity.

 

So here is the problem all to often when the topic touches on AS and gender in the WoT. Some very valid points get buried under a mountain of hyperbole to the point that it is almost impossible to take seriously.

 

Fair point however I don't think rape is something that can ever be or should ever be condoned and it surprises and angers me that people seem to. I don't think I want to understand someone who thinks it's acceptable to rape someone. I suppose that a person who can condone it could themselves be described as a sociopath seeing as they support "a disregard for, and violation of, the rights of others"

[Goldstar]

I'm gonna stretch my neck out on the block here and say that Gawyn and Egwene do get bad reps, though it's not entirely their fault. But yeah, spoilers below, so... careful. :x

 

 

Gawyn's life has been in turmoil ever since Rand first fell into the Garden in Caemlyn. On his way to Tar Valon, he and their envoy were chased the length of the distance by Whitecloaks. When they arrive, he's pushed to the extent of physical, and likely mental strain (we don't know too much about Warder training. I assume they're doing more than just training with a sword). Then, his beloved sister and the love of his life disappear without a trace. Twice. With Morgase going to the Tower to get Elayne back, Gawyn (with the help of Galad, of course), is forced to withstand the sheer force of their mother's will to stay in the White Tower. When Min returns, he is baited with the oppertunity to get some information, but it witheld from him. When the Tower splits, he makes the decision any without full information would do. He sided with the Tower. This put even more mental strain on him, as he was forced to cut down his own mentors. And after he's made the full declaration of what side he is on, what happens? He meets Min, along with the Stilled Siuan and Leane. He knows he can't back out now, after what he's done. He's engrained in the tower now, for better or worse. However, he lets them go. Why? Because Elayne and Egwene trusted them. Again, mental challenges. Afterwards, Gawyn is sent on missions that become more and more impossible by Elaida, in attempts to be rid of him. on one of these missions, he learns of Morgase's death, supposedly at the hands of Rand. After a trauma like this, along with the obvious fact that mothers use names of men that could channel to scare their children, is it so far-fetched that he boiled a hatred for the man? Even after reuniting with Egwene for a short time, his hatred could not be lost. What can I say? It's a character trait, just like any other. Eventually Gawyn decides to leave the Younglings and ride for Egwene, after he learns of her danger. He's riding to protect the one he loves. After the Seanchan attack, I think it would be even more of a character flaw if he HADN'T gone to rescue her, her wishes aside. After this, he is refused even the smallest hint of gratitude, and is instead punished by the woman he loves. Seeking refuge, he returns to Caemlyn to speak with his sister. Elayne, being the worthless person she is, is rather unhelpful, but the Seanchan women are. He gets back just in time to singlehandedly fight off THREE, not just two, but THREE FREAKING BLOODKNIVES. In the dark. Only afterwards is he finally reunited officially with Egwene. I think in the next book we will see some major character differences after the wedding, since he can finally be at peace with himself. Oh, and Morgase and whatnot.

 

As for Egwene, all I can say is, I'll laugh when it turns out she was under mild Compulsion the whole time.

[2RiversFan]

I find this forgiveness of Alanna unbelieveable, after all she did was rape someone. Indeed Nynaeve and Egwene seem to think they will bond people as well whether the person wants it or not so apparently they condone rape as well. Typical double standards in my opinion. So to paraphrase the above "other than raping someone she hasn't done much else wrong and suffers through the entire series". Good I say, she deserves it.

 

However my biggest hatred goes to Tylin for the same reason: rape with a deadly weapon (threatening Mat with a dagger in ACOS). I cheered longest and loudest when she died and think the gholam actually did the world a favour in killing her. In fact I hope the whole of Ebou Dar get balefired or turned into a glass lake in Tarmon Gaidon for their attitude that men are worthless expendables who women are allowed to kill with impunity.

 

So here is the problem all to often when the topic touches on AS and gender in the WoT. Some very valid points get buried under a mountain of hyperbole to the point that it is almost impossible to take seriously.

 

Fair point however I don't think rape is something that can ever be or should ever be condoned and it surprises and angers me that people seem to. I don't think I want to understand someone who thinks it's acceptable to rape someone. I suppose that a person who can condone it could themselves be described as a sociopath seeing as they support "a disregard for, and violation of, the rights of others"

 

I can understand your interpretation of Tylin/Mat as rape, but personally, I don't take it that way. Perhaps I did on my first time through the books, but I see it differently now.

 

I think that RJ decided to use this subject to 'spit in the eye' of the trend to make everything 'politically correct'. He largely follows PC trends through his books by creating a world where racism doesn't occur - with the possible exception of perceptions of the Aiel. He follows PC-ness with having women as the highest rulers in several lands and without even hearing any complaints such as "A woman in charge?!?" There are also examples of his bowing to the PC crowd as well.

 

Where he has bucked the trend is to stereotype each gender to within certain mechanisms of showing emotional responses, ie: skirt smoothing and sniffing for female POVs; righteous indignation and professed ignorance of women for males.

 

My take on the Tylin/Mat situation is that RJ bucked the PC trend simply by writing it tongue-in-cheek; he was so sure of the fact that for a 20 year old male, any chance to have physical relations of that sort was simply not something to be passed up. I'm still unsure that this is what RJ wanted, but I have personally heard many males profess to want 'the woman to take charge'. On top of that, it should be remembered that the act of intercourse can not happen without the male being (PG-ized) ready for it.

 

The knife incident that you mention is definitely one thorny part to my take on this; I agree that this instance is closely aligned to the textbook example of rape. However, Mat would have still had to be 'ready'; but rather than that, Mat seems (to me) to simply fall into the fantasy by playing the role Tylin set for him. I never really once thought Mat couldn't have stopped it if he wanted to.

 

Does anyone else here feel the same or similarly to me on this?

 

From a story-telling pov, RJ may simply have been trying to see how far he could take this without turning everyone away. RJ may also have been trying to take his series further into the adult realm in order to keep readers - I'm not sure about Goodkind, but certainly GRRM was writing some 'sexpositional' stories by the time RJ wrote these scenes; perhaps he thought it necessary to keep up?

 

I'm not saying my thoughts above are correct - after all, he did have Tylin die a very nasty death as you point out - almost as though he's giving her just desserts...

[Ala Rubra]

My take on the Tylin/Mat situation is that RJ bucked the PC trend simply by writing it tongue-in-cheek; he was so sure of the fact that for a 20 year old male, any chance to have physical relations of that sort was simply not something to be passed up. I'm still unsure that this is what RJ wanted, but I have personally heard many males profess to want 'the woman to take charge'. On top of that, it should be remembered that the act of intercourse can not happen without the male being (PG-ized) ready for it.

 

The knife incident that you mention is definitely one thorny part to my take on this; I agree that this instance is closely aligned to the textbook example of rape. However, Mat would have still had to be 'ready'; but rather than that, Mat seems (to me) to simply fall into the fantasy by playing the role Tylin set for him. I never really once thought Mat couldn't have stopped it if he wanted to.

 

Do yourself a favor and do some research on male rape and, for that matter, erections. You are so wrong in this case that I can't even come up with the words to argue with you.

[Suttree]

My take on the Tylin/Mat situation is that RJ bucked the PC trend simply by writing it tongue-in-cheek; he was so sure of the fact that for a 20 year old male, any chance to have physical relations of that sort was simply not something to be passed up. I'm still unsure that this is what RJ wanted, but I have personally heard many males profess to want 'the woman to take charge'. On top of that, it should be remembered that the act of intercourse can not happen without the male being (PG-ized) ready for it.

 

The knife incident that you mention is definitely one thorny part to my take on this; I agree that this instance is closely aligned to the textbook example of rape. However, Mat would have still had to be 'ready'; but rather than that, Mat seems (to me) to simply fall into the fantasy by playing the role Tylin set for him. I never really once thought Mat couldn't have stopped it if he wanted to.

 

Do yourself a favor and do some research on male rape and, for that matter, erections. You are so wrong in this case that I can't even come up with the words to argue with you.

 

Correct. According to studies I have read, a large part of the shame attached to male rape is that one is very much capable of having an erection in situations like that.

[LeeM.Erickson]

Again, mental challenges.

 

Fitting, since I'm pretty sure Gawyn is mentally challenged.

 

I'm kidding! I'm not a big fan of Gawyn but I don't hate him as much as some.

[Treemaster]

Galina and Therava.

 

To me, this was the most pointless plotline of all, and the characters are uninteresting. Galina and Therava are the problem with Perrin's abduction plotline, not Perrin and Faile; I like their sections in that plotline.

 

Very surprised only one person has mentioned Galina so far on this thread.

[Duskfire]

I find it hard for that mat/Tylin situation to be rape purely because if Mat truly didn't want to do it, he wouldn't have. A woman pulling a dagger on him isnt like the biggest threat in the world when he has faced aiel and gholam and such. He was prepared to fight three aiel on a rooftop where it was almost certainly he was going to die, but not that?

[damandred]

I find it hard for that mat/Tylin situation to be rape purely because if Mat truly didn't want to do it, he wouldn't have. A woman pulling a dagger on him isnt like the biggest threat in the world when he has faced aiel and gholam and such. He was prepared to fight three aiel on a rooftop where it was almost certainly he was going to die, but not that?

 

 

I will second that. Just wrote a post saying the same thing more or less, but, due to some trouble with the database couldn't post it. Which was probably just as well, because it had a few choice words about some of the particularly self righteous posts.

[Revim]

Egwene. Egwene, Egwene, Egwene. An apparently promising pupil who straight up lacks an ability to learn anything that isn't - and most things that are - shoved right under her nose and used to smack her about the face with. For example, how many times do you have to be told that thoughts are stronger than the power in TAR before you stop being surprised by it? Go back to non-sensical dreams and nightmares.

 

Disagreeing with a guy who can walk into the heart of your seat of power and through force of presence/will alone scare the bejesus out of your entire faction whilst being entirely civil.

 

Thinking you're awesome when a much kinder fate would have been to let you die, untutored in the Winespring Inn.

 

---

 

Almost every Aes Sedai from either camp. Servants of All, not Served by All. Being blessed with an overview as an outside observer I don't agree with the Whitecloaks, but TBH I'd probably have joined up if I lived in the world. Anybody that sure of how much better they are than other people and how they know what's best is usually a bad guy. *cough* Nazis *cough*

 

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Mazram Taim, I think this one's obvious.

 

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Lanfear, you're one of the greats of your age? Your obsessed with a farmboy because he's becoming the DR and he has the soul of a guy that dumped you for a blonde.

 

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Faile's fake aiel, they're the wiggas of WoT. I don't mind Faile herself though... Her mum's another matter.

 

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I think I'll stop here.

[2RiversFan]

My take on the Tylin/Mat situation is that RJ bucked the PC trend simply by writing it tongue-in-cheek; he was so sure of the fact that for a 20 year old male, any chance to have physical relations of that sort was simply not something to be passed up. I'm still unsure that this is what RJ wanted, but I have personally heard many males profess to want 'the woman to take charge'. On top of that, it should be remembered that the act of intercourse can not happen without the male being (PG-ized) ready for it.

 

The knife incident that you mention is definitely one thorny part to my take on this; I agree that this instance is closely aligned to the textbook example of rape. However, Mat would have still had to be 'ready'; but rather than that, Mat seems (to me) to simply fall into the fantasy by playing the role Tylin set for him. I never really once thought Mat couldn't have stopped it if he wanted to.

 

Do yourself a favor and do some research on male rape and, for that matter, erections. You are so wrong in this case that I can't even come up with the words to argue with you.

 

Wow. You clearly have strong feelings on this.

 

I placed a portion of your post in bold, because it is to that I reply - to yours' as well as Suttrees' post below it.

 

I don't care about research simply because someone tells me there was research done. I base my statement on my own observations, which I've noted through over 27 years of adulthood. If a woman attempts to lure me, she'll get no reaction until/unless the situation is right in my mind. I've been in situations far short of life threatening - where my girlfriend at the time tried to start something in public, but because my mind wasn't at the right place she was disapppointed at that particular point. If she were holding a knife to me, she'd have ZERO chance of getting the reaction she wanted.

 

To put it bluntly, I'm able to stop my own physical reaction, and I don't buy that other men can't. It's as simple as mind over matter.

 

This has nothing to do with whether certain females can overpower certain males. Of course this can happen under the right conditions. Following that overpowering though, she would then need to dose the male with viagra in order to get what she was after.

 

Tylin had no little blue pills - what she had was a body that Mat lusted after. Did he say "no"? Yes. Did he stop himself from becoming aroused? No.

 

Edit:

There's another element to what bugs me about this.

 

Our society is making it easier and ever easier for individuals to not accept personal responsibility.

 

If a man isn't expected to control his own physical reactions, then how long will it be before some defense lawyer will be able to successfully argue that a woman was raped because the man couldn't control himself?

[Suttree]

I don't care about research simply because someone tells me there was research done. I base my statement on my own observations, which I've noted through over 27 years of adulthood.

 

Burn my soul, far better to hold to uneducated opinion in the face of proven fact, I'm sure Weiramon would agree. The thought that a man or even more so a "nobleman" could be raped is preposterous.

 

http://www.nyu.edu/999/faqs/sexualassault.html#men

 

Edit: Added bits to lighten the mood...

[2RiversFan]

I don't care about research simply because someone tells me there was research done. I base my statement on my own observations, which I've noted through over 27 years of adulthood.

 

Burn my soul, far better to hold to uneducated opinion in the face of proven fact.

 

http://www.nyu.edu/999/faqs/sexualassault.html#men

 

Suttree, you do know that 600 years or so ago, it was 'proven, scientific fact' that the world was flat, right? Instead of rolling your eyes you need to open your mind to the fact that people have agendas that color their findings.

 

Most of what you link to merely talk of men raping whoever; male of female. Where it doesn't:

All studies so far have found that survivors commonly do report erections and even ejaculations while being raped. These are uncontrollable, automatic, physiological responses, and do not mean that the survivor enjoyed the experience.

 

At any rate, they aren't reporting double-blind scientific studies that could conclusively prove one way or the other whether a man can not control his own physical arousal. They're reporting on studies where men say "I wasn't able to stop myself getting hard and ejaculating". Huge difference.

 

If such a double bling scientific study were to take place, I'd volunteer to take part. I can show the researchers that stopping yourself from obtaining erection can be done. It IS a matter of the mind, not involuntary physical reaction.

[Suttree]

...

 

I added the extra's above in an attempt to lighten the mood. Unfortunately 2Rivers you are holding to a stance that is exposing extreme ignorance on the topic and going so far as relating it to the "earth being flat"(ironically your stance fits that analogy much better) does you no favors. It is taken for granted within the medical community that involuntary erections happen during male rape. It can happen from both external and prostrate stimulation. That is one of the most confusing parts for straight males who may be lead to question their sexual identity based on a m/m rape. I have no desire to further debate the topic and I don't think a class in college makes me an expert. I do however encourage you to further educate yourself on the topic.

 

 

It is not uncommon for a male rape victim to blame himself for the rape, believing that he in some way gave permission to the rapist (Brochman, 1991). Male rape victims suffer a similar fear that female rape victims face -- that people will believe the myth that they may have enjoyed being raped. Some men may believe they were not raped or that they gave consent because they became sexually aroused, had an erection, or ejaculated during the sexual assault. These are normal, involuntary physiological reactions. It does not mean that the victim wanted to be raped or sexually assaulted, or that the survivor enjoyed the traumatic experience. Sexual arousal does not necessarily mean there was consent.

 

According to Groth, some assailants may try to get their victim to ejaculate because for the rapist, it symbolizes their complete sexual control over their victim's body. Since ejaculation is not always within conscious control but rather an involuntary physiological reaction, rapists frequently succeed at getting their male victims to ejaculate. As Groth and Burgess have found in their research, this aspect of the attack is extremely stressful and confusing to the victim. In misidentifying ejaculation with orgasm, the victim may be bewildered by his physiological response during the sexual assault and, therefore, may be discouraged from reporting the assault for fear his sexuality may become suspect

[Mats Spare Hat]

Shhheeeiii....2RiversFan, in those 27 years did you miss Abu Ghraib?

 

Tell you what, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abu_Ghraib_torture_and_prisoner_abuse , scroll down to the third picture on the right. Mind it could be NSFW, to cover the bases.

 

Here's an agenda: That's torture, it's public knowledge, it's documented, was on 60 Minutes, in part resulted in people being put on trial, and is one of the most infamous cases of the kind of disgrace a human being can be toward another. A dude wearing a hood, stripped naked, in a prison, being forced to spank his own chubby while some chump smokes a butt while giving a thumbs-up for the camera...

 

I mean surely you're spot on though - he must have really actually wanted that to happen because obviously he's clearly, so totally in control, and according to you erections aren't an involuntarily physical reaction... . Seems to be by comparison to the poor fellas next to him that he's sporting some blood-flow induced size, as opposed to having your panic stricken scads suck the life out of your junk.

 

And you think it's hogwash that a girl sporting a hot rack & a knife, in her own bedroom ,could elicit the same response from a man who didn't want it?

 

 

..Does it look like that man in Abu Ghraib wants it?

[LeeM.Erickson]

If a man isn't expected to control his own physical reactions, then how long will it be before some defense lawyer will be able to successfully argue that a woman was raped because the man couldn't control himself?

 

Ironically, this type of talk has been in the news recently about the rise of sexual assault against women in the military. One news reporter's response was basically "Well what did the women expect putting themselves in close quarters with men?"

 

Not to get off topic or anything...

[Mr Ares]

I don't care about research simply because someone tells me there was research done. I base my statement on my own observations, which I've noted through over 27 years of adulthood.

 

Burn my soul, far better to hold to uneducated opinion in the face of proven fact.

 

http://www.nyu.edu/999/faqs/sexualassault.html#men

 

Suttree, you do know that 600 years or so ago, it was 'proven, scientific fact' that the world was flat, right?

Actually, it wasn't. It has been proven scientific fact since the ancient Greeks that the world was round. Which is not to say that that knowledge was universal, especially amongst the uneducated. So perhaps you should educate yourself by looking at the available evidence rather than making conclusions off purely anecdotal evidence (your own experience). Even if you have complete control (which is itself unproven), that doesn't mean everyone else does, or even that it is common. Mat might have been ready, but whether he was willing is another matter.

[Alric]

Deja vu on the Mat/Tylin discussion...

 

I was browsing through some earlier books a few days ago, and rereading about Min and Siuan running into Gawyn during the coup. That part really grates me, even though RJ in fact does a convincing job of letting us know how Gawyn's decision of siding with Elaida was a difficult one for him, the part about him slaughtering the Warders of the Blues and Greens.... Gaaah. Min knows but doesn't tell Siuan (she would probably have torn his head off). The whole situation is just depressing and hopeless. So while it can be argued that Gawyn wasn't doing it just out of spite or cruelty, I still think that he had enough knowledge to be able to figure out he should have gotten his ass out of there, not sided with Elaida even if he didn't want to support Siuan, and certainly not killed in support of Elaida.

 

 

[DrunkenWarder]

I really dislike Tuon/Fortuona very much.

I don't get it why so many people dislike Egwene? Is it because she is ambitious and stern? She was like that since the beginning - since she started taking lessons from Moiraine.

[Ahaz Flagg]

Not even close, Egwene and Faile. I know you do not want to hear it, but i am not going to pick someone else because you like them and are sick of people hating them. There is a reason those 2 are the most often used as most hated. I hope Egwene, Faile and Perrin all end up in the same trolloc cook pot.

[LeeM.Erickson]

I don't get it why so many people dislike Egwene? Is it because she is ambitious and stern? She was like that since the beginning - since she started taking lessons from Moiraine.

 

Honestly, I found her MORE annoying in the earlier books.

[Tom Sawyer]

Tuon's the one I hate the most. I find her to be a poorly written character and one that just annoys the hell out of me. I was so glad when she parted from Mat so that his scenes stopped sucking so much. He'd be so much better paired up with someone else.

 

All the Seafolk. Their society is just lame and I wish they'd all drown.

 

Pretty much all of the Aes Sedai. The White Tower is just one big clown car that needs to be driven off of a cliff. Siuan can get out beforehand and go hang with Moiraine because they're the only two that are worth anything.

 

Galad. Not so much the character as the way that he's been written into the series. He was mostly forgotten about and then his entire character development arc was crammed into the last book. The most incongruous scenes in the series was going between the big-assed battle in Maradon and then switching over to Galad wanting his lame little trial for the crap in book one. The juxtaposition really didn't work for me.

 

Also, I'm going to mention that I hate Egwene and Faile just because I don't like it when people tell me what to do.

[Suttree]

Pretty much all of the Aes Sedai. The White Tower is just one big clown car that needs to be driven off of a cliff. Siuan can get out beforehand and go hang with Moiraine because they're the only two that are worth anything.

 

Yeah because Gitara, Verin, Cads etc are all just worthless. The WT is far removed from when it saved the world in the Trolloc Wars and is a fallen institution, part of an entire world that RJ is describing as fallen. The AS system itself has partially failed but there are good and bad individual sisters just like any other group in the world.