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DRAGONMOUNT

A WHEEL OF TIME COMMUNITY

damandred

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Everything posted by damandred

  1. Hi Cross, if you like Perrin you'll really enjoy the next book, in tDR you start to see Mat in a better light from this book he goes on in leaps and bounds in his development. From a moany little whinger in the first two books to my fav in the series, until Sanderson get a hold of him at least, but thats another story. Anyway hope you enjoy the Wot, if you liked the first two books then your in for a treat. Im a little envious! btw the Dresden files are awesome, love jim butcher, have you tried his furies series yet?
  2. Yeah i agree Mat didnt do much to gain his skill in battle, walking through a magic door way and coming out a general without peer is a bit, meh. But he was hung and was only saved by Rand at the last minute, he was inches from death. Also it shouldnt come as a surprise he did so well, if anyone was built up in the series as a great general its mat. Even straight after Rhuidean, hes looking at hills and thinking of how they can be defended, then after beating Caulduin to breaking out of Altara with the whole of the seanchan army on his tail he is being built as the lights general. Indeed one of his titles is "son of battles". And it didnt all run smoothly for him at the last battle a lot of people are doubting him through it and even Tuon begins to lose faith, its only at the end Mat plays the hand he had been waiting for, as he said to Elayne in his poker metaphor, before that it was looking grim. So i think its abit unfair to suggest that Demanded was beaten easily by mat or that it was some great upset. Demanded had held all the aces until his death and mat used all his skill honded throughout the series just holding him of until the right moment.
  3. I dont think mat was that much better, he won the battle but it was close, and even mat acknowledges how good demanded is. Lets not forget that but for dem thinking he had to be LTT, he would have just travelled to the command centre and fried him. And who knows what would have happened if Lan hadn't of killed dem, most of the slaughter of the shadows forces near the end was down to them being leaderless, he was winning when he died, i doubt the stunt with the dragons in the cave would have been so effective with dem about.
  4. didnt the foretelling spoken to Rands mum say, something about when the Aiel got to Tar Valon?
  5. Yeah i think its because of a old LoC? Cover were hes depicted with maybe strawberry blond hair, more blond than strawberry anyway and that image stuck.
  6. The opposite than Kermit for me, i picture Rand tanned with blond hair, though i know he has red hair it takes a conscious effect to picture him with it.
  7. The little fat man? I cant think of any reference to it being anything more than a average angreal.
  8. I think it was pretty clear to all the foresaken that once Rand started the cleansing he would be pretty much out of the game in the battle.And we know the foresakens powers are exaggerated in the series, but not that much, anyone should be able to defeat 3 average third agers even if linked, remember linking doesnt double or triple the power you can use, its entirely possible that Demandred was still stronger on his own and with his deeper knowledge of the power should of made short work of them.
  9. I think Emperor has a point. I except that Demandred' heart wasnt in the fight and can remember some comment along the lines of a general shouldn't get his hands dirty, but, going of how powerful Rand is at the end and since he and Dem are nearly the same in strength and knowledge ( though even dem admits that LTT was more skilled) i think Dem should of been able to destroy the circle of three without breaking a sweat and it shouldn't of been a exuse to drive him off, plus dont forget though he wasnt that interested in being there he did have a desire to get his hands on Rand, who had previously been very hard to find.
  10. What evidence do you have to support that?The evidence for personality has been provided a number of times in thread.Yeah, missed that, would you mind pointing it out to me?
  11. But not the point. You're talking about something else. A local crackpot who tends to be very reliable in what he says and there is no reason provided to think he is lying in this specific instance. You still haven't provided a reason to think Semi is lying, beyond the possibility she might be. Sometimes a sore throat might just be a sore throat, but you're then trying to rule out it being the flu on those grounds. Which you can't, because flu remains a possibility. Plus we are aware of no condition besides Rand's that has this as a symptom - thus we can conclude either that there are two conditions that come with a real voice and only one involves memories, or that Rand had the same condition as those other people. While we might not be able to say definitively either way, why are we making unnecessary assumptions? That doesn't exactly invalidate my analogy. An answer has been provided. And it is wrong because those memories and experiences are those of the previous life, not the current one. Rand didn't do any of those things. LTT did. Yes, they matter quite a lot, unless Shai'tan is around. LTT ceased entirely. Then Rand came, and LTT didn't come back for about twenty years after that, and even then he didn't come back entirely. So given that he died and never came back to life...Have already gone through most of this, and have to agree with Barid we are just repeating ourselves. I think your wrong but respect your opinion. Question though. When you say "even then he didn't come back entirely" apart from his body what else didnt come back? Most of his mind and personality. What evidence do you have to support that?
  12. I Think aCoS a solid WoT book, better than tDR for example. While book 9 WH has the one of the best battle scenes of the series.
  13. But not the point. You're talking about something else. A local crackpot who tends to be very reliable in what he says and there is no reason provided to think he is lying in this specific instance. You still haven't provided a reason to think Semi is lying, beyond the possibility she might be. Sometimes a sore throat might just be a sore throat, but you're then trying to rule out it being the flu on those grounds. Which you can't, because flu remains a possibility. Plus we are aware of no condition besides Rand's that has this as a symptom - thus we can conclude either that there are two conditions that come with a real voice and only one involves memories, or that Rand had the same condition as those other people. While we might not be able to say definitively either way, why are we making unnecessary assumptions? That doesn't exactly invalidate my analogy. An answer has been provided. And it is wrong because those memories and experiences are those of the previous life, not the current one. Rand didn't do any of those things. LTT did. Yes, they matter quite a lot, unless Shai'tan is around. LTT ceased entirely. Then Rand came, and LTT didn't come back for about twenty years after that, and even then he didn't come back entirely. So given that he died and never came back to life... Have already gone through most of this, and have to agree with Barid we are just repeating ourselves. I think your wrong but respect your opinion. Question though. When you say "even then he didn't come back entirely" apart from his body what else didnt come back?
  14. Yeah ok, apologies on my part if you feel this topic has hijacked the thread.
  15. "Doesnt address the point" Of course it does, i have already explained why addressing the AoLer as both himself and LTT is correct. It is not a difficult concept to understand. 2) You compare the Semi evidence to a murder weapon with my finger prints on, being found on my possession, but i would compare it to the police arresting me for murder on the say so of the local crackpot. As I've said she said other people heard voices, but hearing LTT was just one symptom of Rands condition, its like saying just because someone had a sore throat, they had the flu. Sometimes a sore throat is just a sore throat. 3) You are seriously comparing a consciousness to a inanimate object? ( when not pumping) Thats hilarious. You know Suttree asked me in this thread what i thought constitutes a person, which i answered. Why dont you answer that yourself, and why not, why your at it, explain, why a reborn soul, that has regained its memories, its loves and regrets and the goals of its former life is wrong for thinking of that former life as its own. 4) "he was dead for about 4000 years, that seems pretty definitively ceased to me" So if he was only dead a year he would of been less dead? He was dead, then he was reborn, while living his new life he regained the memories of his old and so came back, the time between lives is irrelevant. His old body was destroyed, yes, but we've seen how much bodies matter in the series.
  16. @ Mr Ares "Look at the quotes Barid provided and how they contradict your view" As i said to Barid, for as many quotes as there is of Rand referring to the AoL self as LTT, there is as many in ToM and aMoL of him thinking of LTT as himself, Maybe more. As i said to Suttree both are correct, he is thinking of another version of himself. 2) You say the Semi speach is evidence to suggest that people have had the same sort experience as Rand. I disagree, it is evidence to suggest other people have heard voices of past lives, and it is far from conclusive, semi could of been lying. To say because she admitted who she was is a indication of truthfulness is with respect a bit naive, as all know the best lies are often mixed with truth and she did have very limited time on screen in the series to lie, though she did pose as someone else and is a forsaken, so we can hardly call her a paragon of truth. But even if she was telling the truth, i repeat it is only evidence people heard voices and gained information through them, there is nothing to suggest these people had actual memories and in some cases tastes and habits, and post VoG it becomes redundant anyway as Rand no longer hears LTT. 3) "LTT did cease and he never came back, for all that bits of him did" "A part of LTT came back, but he still ceased" Two quotes from your last post that not only contradict themselves, but each other. So your saying that only part of LTT ceased? That seems to be at odds with the RJ quote you present as evidence for your case, plus if thats the case isnt that part of Rand entitled to regard LTT as himself? Or are you saying he did cease, but a part of him came back? IMO its a pretty big part and Wouldn't that part also have the right to regard LTT as himself? For make no mistake, the memories had to have come from somewhere. Wouldn't you say rather, that during VoG Rand become fully aware of his previous life, he got not only his memories, but also his loves and regrets, so in effect LTT came back and and incorporated himself into Rand and if not LTT himself then most of him that matters. Rand remembered HIS own past life, a different version of himself to be sure, but still himself. 4) "If people hold mistaken opinions, it is not unreasonable to correct them, There's nothing wrong with helping people get a better understanding of the series" But your not helping them get a better understanding of the series, your forcing your opinion on them and presenting it as truth. No matter how strongly you believe in what you say it is your opinion only and is not cannon. As I've already said i Think your argument has a lot of merit, Rand is not LTT and LTT is not Rand, their two different versions of the same person, but after VoG i think it perfectly valid for Rand to think of LTT as himself and for other people to do so also.
  17. @ Suttree No matter how you want to spin it, that little speach by Semi is not evidence that the people Graendal had come across had the same illness as Rand. As i have already pointed out we dont know enough about them, were the voices accompanied by visions of the past or was it just information they supplied? Were they benevolent or raging mad like LTT? And what was reintegration exactly? Was it the same deal as after VoG? Or did the voice just fade? The quote you supplied seems to imply that reintegration can be made even if it wasnt a real voice, how does that work? And even if all them questions are answered, you still fail to acknowledge that Semi could be lying, Barid Bel pointed out be me that we Couldn't trust Rands words to Egwene as he was trying to manipulate her, well i site the same reasons for not trusting Semi who had more reason and is not as nice. 2) You keep coming out with this " well if your gonna ignore the cosmology" crap, when im not ignoring it at all. The quote by RJ said that when a person dies they cease, all well and good i take that to mean that when a person is reborn, they have no memory of the person they were before, therefore that person is effectively gone, ceased. Now with Rand this is clearly not the case, what started of as having a madman in his head fighting for control, ended up a realization that that was just another part of himself that the madness had made crazy. Heres a quote from VoG. "Rand opened his eyes for the first time in a very long while. He knew -somehow - that he would never hear again Lews Therin's voice in his head. For they were NOT two men and NEVER had been". Now i know people can say he could be wrong, but i think one crucial piece of evidence supports his claim, the fact he has NEVER HEARD LTT AGAIN, if he was right about that, why not about this? All i can see as evidence for you to say hes wrong is one author quote taking about what normally happens in regards to past lives, way before a event that defies that norm. I personally believe that if RJ ws alive today and asked about Rands case imparticular his answer would be different. And i dont really know what makes a person, but im sure having the same soul, memories and goals, not to mention loves, ( Rand still has love for ilyena ) and his personality merged into his own goes a long way. Now why dont you explain how that doesnt make him LTT, without author quotes that bare no relevance to this situation. And if you mention the physical body this convo is over, see what i did there? Lastly no matter what context Barids quote is in he says quite clearly no one thought Rand was not unique, something Mr Ares has been going out of his way to disprove, why else the Semi quote ?
  18. The taint causes different forms of madness. One form of madness is people hearing voices from their past lives. These people were from the AoL as they were being treated by Graendal and when they heard a "real voice" she "usually" failed to heal them. The taint is irrelevant here as the madness is what's important, that and the fact that some achieved reintegration. One must focus on the larger point of different people not this "unique" goal post shift you've narrowed in on. When one looks at input in thread from Barid and others it's clear Mr Ares certainly isn't the only one thinking that way. 1) OK say Graendal did come across people who heard voices of their past lives in the AoL, there is no evidence that they got the memories as well as those voices, as part of their madness. So it cannot really be used as a case in point president for Rands situation, as we dont really know enough about them. Thats not to say semi wasnt just lying her arse of at the time to unsettle Rand and get his allies to doubt him, which fits perfectly with her character and the attitude she adopted through most of her captivity. 2) "i dont think anyone is saying Rand isn't unique in this" a quote taken out of Barid' post and i asked you multiple times if you thought he was not unique which you failed to answer so i took to mean you thought he was, but maybe that was presumptuous, so i'll ask again, do you think Rand is not unique? Im sorry if i presumed wrong in this but Maybe if you gave a straight answer it would cut the confusion. And how is this a goal post shift? I have said from the start since the RJ quote was produced that i didnt think it applied to Rand because of his unique situation, in fact its gotten a bit annoying having to repeat myself. And i narrow in on it because i believe it extremely pertinent to my argument especially in regards to the RJ quote where he says that after death the person ceases, when in Rand' case this clearly isn't so, especially after VoG when the LTT persona merges with the Rand persona to create a new personality that also has all of LTT' memories. Now i understand the argument that LTT and Rand are two different people im not stupid, but i would also say their two different versions of the same person, so in a way were both correct, i just think it valid that Rand can think of LTT as himself, but some people have a problem with that, and i also think it wrong to cry foul over someone else doing it, which Mr Ares did to sabio which started this whole debate in the first place.
  19. I asked for your evidence. You have none. "Usually" might be thin, but thin evidence is better than none. As for the taint, it's not really important. It causes madness, but the forms of madness it causes are possible without the taint. You've been claiming for a while that Mat's memories are fragments, how about you support that first? Rand's opinion is, as Barid shows, not as clear cut as you're trying to make out. And Word of God is from a higher source, so he can contradict the characters - he defines the mechanics of the world, the characters make educated guesses. You've also not shown that VoG is a game-changer in this respect. I think it's a little thin to rely on Rand not making the distinction between himself and LTT every single time. The quotes Barid provided show that he does make that distinction, between himself (Rand) and himself-yet-not-actually-himself (LTT). Combine that opinion with RJ's quotes, plus anything else, it's just more and more compelling - all the evidence indicates that they are not one and the same. 1) since i am not the one who is disputing the opinion of the character himself, i dont think its really on me to present evidence. The burden of proof falls squarely on you. And your evidence is Semi used the word usually, when describing other people suffering Rands illness, you failed to answer, where you think these people came from, not the AoL as there was no taint then. Could it be possible Semi was lying? I have already said i dont believe the RJ quote is relevant in this matter as it speaks of people in general and not a post VoG Rand who is unique, but i guess you must be the only one who thinks he isnt.
  20. 1) from my point of view it seemed Mr Ares was making a case that Rands situation wasnt unique, but thats not really important. As for the rest there are as many quotes as the ones you provided (Barid Bel) where Rand thought of LTT as himself, from Rands PoV in aMoL thinking on Demandred "I'm to blame for that , too, Rand thought. If i'd offered a hand instead of a smirk, if i'd congratulated instead of competed. If I'D been the man then that I AM now" and not to mention the Rand Sedai moment with cads, but this part is telling not long afterwards in ToM with min "LTT was mad" "At the end" Rand said. "And yes, he made mistakes. I made mistakes. I grew arrogant, desperate." He goes on to say he was raised better. As we can see some times he refers to LTT as a different person others as himself, obviously he was a different person physically, as regarding biological childred from his body so in that sense yes hes a different person but i still think it valid for him to think of LTT as himself.
  21. 1) to take the word USUALLY as some kind of evidence that transformations like Rand' have occurred before is very thin. Ok though if we are going to be pendantic about wording , she says voices instead of memories, i suppose its possible to hear voices of past lives without the memories, and if so what did she mean by "reintegration" ? And were the people Graendal helped even effected by the taint? They couldnt of of been in the AoL as there was no taint, and it doesn't seem likely that she found any effected by the taint in the exact same way as Rand in the short time she was free in the third age and cured them, never mind several as the quote seems to suggest. No i think using that one one sentance as proof that the Rand/LTT merger is not unique makes for a very weak argument. 2) so Mat has the memories of the men who entered the finnrealm, since they left to the day they died? Do you have any proof of that claim? I am aware that Mat thinks that the finns are in his head, but does he get all of the other mens or just fragments? I know the memories he received were given to him to fill in the blanks in his memory after his sickness, so how many years in total is that? 2? 4? 10? Its a lot less than 400 regardless of how much was forgotten in that time. And Rand' memories came from his soul, which must have retained LTTS memories, though it was the taint that made it possible to remember them, his soul was LTT and after VoG he could access them fully, so i dont know where the fragment comes from. 3) objective truth of it? One RJ quote that is pre VoG? I can understand having a different opinion, but i hardly think the evidence supplied can be counted as truth. I think in a subject like this there is no one "objective truth" and is more about opinions and i think Rands is more valid than yours.
  22. @Mr Ares 1) Though we do find out Rand' memories are a result of the taint in the scene with Semi, i gather that all the subjects she came across did desend into termanal madness, and there is absolutely no evidence that anyone else suffering with the past life memories effects of the taint have gone through a VoG moment and fully merged the two personalities within themselves, that is the only case alluded to in the books and there is nothing to indicate, that anything like that has happened in the current turning of the wheel. That imo makes Rand unique. 2) While i think Barid Bel is usually very spot on in his observations, i think in this instance he is wrong. The difference between Mat' and Rands memories isnt just that Rand' come from a previous life, another rather big difference is, that were Mats memories are scenes from other mens memories, mostly battles, were as Rand can remember all of LTT' life from childhood to death. I think the quote from RJ regarding personalities is correct at the time he gave the quote when Rand and LTT were two distinct personalities, but that was pre VoG. After VoG the two personalities had merged, he was not one or the other, he was both, as the told Egwene. 3) i think the Gawyn analogy about truth is a bad one. Gawyn chose to believe a rumour about Rand killing his mother. Rand is not some guy in a looney bin thinking hes Napoleon, he regards a past life that he remembers completely and is fully absorbed into his own personality as his own and who is anyone to say different.
  23. So the cosmology doesn't apply to him is what you're saying. Once again given cyclic time you seem to be making some very strange assumptions about this version of Rand being "unique" when we know that wasn't the case. RJ stated this was just another turning and there was nothing unique about it. It's why those "kill the DO/linear time" theories were always kind of a joke. Also the Rand/Ishy link quote has already been provided. They apparently fight an eternal battle with either one of them going to the other side occasionally. Does the cosmology not apply to Ishy as well? Of course RJ' version of TG is not unique to other turnings of the wheel, that is not what im saying which i believe you know very well. Say rather that he is unique among people of that age or any other age in a single turning of the wheel and when that age comes about again he will be unique again. And you still didnt answer my question, is he not unique? is the chosen one just a regular joe? Maybe you should answer that, instead of trying to dodge the question with clumsy sophistry, about turnings of the wheel. Woah easy Dam. No need for the shrill responses. I've countered your arguments at every step including a number of author quotes to back my case. Meanwhile you've moved the goal posts consistently until now we've arrived at "well the cosmology doesn't apply to this particular soul in this particular turning." You're going to have to do better than that and presenting a plurium interrogationum fallacy doesn't help your cause. Yeah, whatever. You still Haven't answered the question.
  24. So the cosmology doesn't apply to him is what you're saying. Once again given cyclic time you seem to be making some very strange assumptions about this version of Rand being "unique" when we know that wasn't the case. RJ stated this was just another turning and there was nothing unique about it. It's why those "kill the DO/linear time" theories were always kind of a joke. Also the Rand/Ishy link quote has already been provided. They apparently fight an eternal battle with either one of them going to the other side occasionally. Does the cosmology not apply to Ishy as well? Of course RJ' version of TG is not unique to other turnings of the wheel, that is not what im saying which i believe you know very well. Say rather that he is unique among people of that age or any other age in a single turning of the wheel and when that age comes about again he will be unique again. And you still didnt answer my question, is he not unique? is the chosen one just a regular joe? Maybe you should answer that, instead of trying to dodge the question with clumsy sophistry, about turnings of the wheel.
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