Was Elayne the same in ToM?

[yoniy0]

I know many of you won't find this the least bit interesting, since you don't care for Elayne in the slightest. Still, I got the same feeling from her ToM PoV's that I did about Mat's performance in TGS. I'm not sure whether I'm simply imagining things, or perhaps RJ planned for her coronation to affect her in some way. It can also be that Brandon found it hard to write her character (he didn't have to do it for TGS, so perhaps he studied her less than other characters). Last but not least, I listened to ToM rather than reading it (the Audible release was easier to get a hold of), and I didn't have a chance to read her chapters yet (though I'm working through the ebook now), so perhaps that's what's felt different to me.

What do you guys think?

[herid]

I found Elayne pretty consistent except for one important aspect - her attitude toward Mat. It seems to have changed dramatically at the end of CoS but here she is back to treating him mostly as a scoundrel.

[Ashandarei]

I know many of you won't find this the least bit interesting, since you don't care for Elayne in the slightest. Still, I got the same feeling from her ToM PoV's that I did about Mat's performance in TGS. I'm not sure whether I'm simply imagining things, or perhaps RJ planned for her coronation to affect her in some way. It can also be that Brandon found it hard to write her character (he didn't have to do it for TGS, so perhaps he studied her less than other characters). Last but not least, I listened to ToM rather than reading it (the Audible release was easier to get a hold of), and I didn't have a chance to read her chapters yet (though I'm working through the ebook now), so perhaps that's what's felt different to me.

What do you guys think?

 

I looked up her PoV's on the WoT wiki and then tried looking at the chapters in ToM on the Encyclopaedia WoT but it's still under construction. Could you give a quick summary of the things she does in ToM to refresh my memory? I know she meets Morgase/Galad, Matt(about Dragons) but that's all I remember. Is this also the one where she goes like a fool into the BA prison alone?

 

I want to refresh my memory on her activities before I vote about her seeming same/different

[yoniy0]

Yes, the prison. She also went for a nice boat ride with her brother, and everything else you mentioned. She met with Egwene (when she was able to hold the Source) in tel'aran'rhiod and agreed that Rand's plan was alarming. She planned to have the Kin for Andor.

All that aside, it's not WHAT she does that's bothering me, it's HOW she does it and mostly HOW she thinks while doing it. I can't be more specific than that, since, well... I only listened to it from a recording. Once I've read her chapters, I'll have more for you (perhaps that's silly, but it's just how my memory works).

 

EDIT: Wow, Elayne-lovers are in the majority at the moment. Wonder how long that's going to last

[Ashandarei]

I voted "I dislike her character, but there was something different about her" mainly because the scene with her and Gawyn on the boat had her saying some very wise and sensible things and made me actually really like her! It reminded me of the Elayne that we first met that treated Rand's head wound when he fell into the palace garden, and what she should/could have grown into(and maybe did?). Over the course of ToM in general I didn't really dislike her, not the way I did that past however many books. The boat Elayne definitely seemed wayyy more mature and way less "chin-in-the-air". Maybe it was BS's portrayal of her, either way I liked it.

[Finnssss22]

I voted "I dislike her character, but there was something different about her" mainly because the scene with her and Gawyn on the boat had her saying some very wise and sensible things and made me actually really like her! It reminded me of the Elayne that we first met that treated Rand's head wound when he fell into the palace garden, and what she should/could have grown into(and maybe did?). Over the course of ToM in general I didn't really dislike her, not the way I did that past however many books. The boat Elayne definitely seemed wayyy more mature and way less "chin-in-the-air". Maybe it was BS's portrayal of her, either way I liked it.

 

 

...and then she ruined it all in the meeting with Perrin.

As far as I'm concerned she owed Perrin and the whole of the Two Rivers an apology and great big thanks right off the bat.

Instead she talked about rebels and the like even though the "uprising" occured while Rahvin was in power.

 

The whole title of Stewart of the Two Rivers was contrived long before Perrin and co stepped foot in the Royal Palace and it sickened me to see Perrin "played" like that when he is the only reason the Two Rivers even still exists to be a "province" in Andor.

 

Seems like every time I think Elayne is finally coming around, she does or says something reminds me that she is still a spoiled and pompous child.

 

It's not just a BS or ToM thing either, it's been that way for pretty much the entire series.

 

The biggest failing for both her and Egwene is their inability to accept that someone else might actually be more important than them.

For the most part both of them regard Rand on equal terms for pete's sake when the reality is that Rand is many times more important than both of them put together and Mat and Perrin many times more important than either of them separately.

 

It's not like the both of them don't know that both Mat and Perrin are ta'veren and linked to Rand, meaning they have significant part to play in whether or not the Shadow is defeated.

Yet both of them continue to put the White Tower's and Andor's interests above that of saving the world itself.

 

Look at Darlin in Tear for example, he has Tear's interest in mind but at the same time he knows what's at stake on a world wide level.

Take his letter back to Egwene, basically he replies that he understands her concerns and he will also try to convince Rand on another course of action but if the Dragon Reborn still decides that it is the best course of action then he will follow that decision.

In other words....he says, who do you honestly think I should listen to and follow in the end, the man reborn and sent to save us or the third Amyrlin Seat to hold the chair in the last 2 years heh.

[Crael123]

Well if anybody remembers me, they would have remembered that I normally absolutly hated Elaynes plot and everything to do with her because it was boring and she was not nice, but this book.... i am ashamed to admit it..

 

 

 

 

 

 

yeah i liked elayne this book she was awesome. I said it.

[Sleeper]

I hate the idea that Perrin is her "subject". We're talking about one of the three most powerful ta'veren in existence right now, and he's under Elayne. I thought the whole idea of ta'veren is that they're thrown out by the Pattern to correct imbalance. It seems like it would be much more difficult for them to do their job if they're chained by fealty to a nation.

 

Maybe she's the one who's ta'veren...

 

Anyway, I voted option one; I've never really liked her except for TEoTW.

[Morsker]

She's changed a lot over the series, but it's in-character for her to change. She's gone through Accepted training, gotten pregnant, won a throne, and bonded a Warder. I liked Elayne the most in 4-5 as a supporting character to Nynaeve; didn't like her so much on her own. But it's not like her changing is bad characterization.

[BLKNIGHT18]

I think her character was supposed to have been changed, now being "Elayne the Queen" It made her more annoying than usual to me, I don't know how much of an improvement it would have been if RJ was writing instead of BS.

[capuga]

I voted that I liked her and thought she was pretty much the same.

 

I've never really disliked Elayne although I have found some of her plotlines (particularly securing the Andoran throne) boring. I didn't really notice anything that seemed off about the character. Certainly not noticable like Mat in tGS.

[Hopefire]

Er, where was the option for "Her character felt like a positive natural evolution of her character?"

 

Elayne has had a "spoiled rich kid with good intentions" vibe through the majority of the series. Not just rich in fiscal terms; she's been like the girl in high school that gets an A+ in everything except Home Economics, is captain of the track team and the karate team, is dating the star quarterback, bakes awesome cookies, is head of the Glee Club, is the top chess player, head of the Bible club, and volunteers her time at the food bank. She's not the head cheerleader or the class president, but they're her best friends. She's good at everything and has had every break, so even though she works hard for everything it's really, really easy to be annoyed with how awesome she is. Especially since she's so damn chipper all the time. And she's really, really baffled every time she gets in over her head.

 

To be clear, "awesome" is being used in a more than just slightly sarcastic kind of way.

 

In TOM, it felt like she took it down a few notches. She's more dignified, especially towards the end of the book. She makes more allowances for others not being as awesome as her. She starts to act regally. The scenes with Gawyn are probably the best examples of this.

[blazetheearth]

I voted for "Dislike, and still dislike". I'll admit that a lot of my dislike of her originally came from her interaction with Mat in Salidar and EB, but to me I still see the same spoiled child in her that I saw then. Her treatment of Perrin in ToM was easily equivalent of her treatment of Mat in Salidar (and on the trip to EB). She constantly thinks of others as below her (personally, I think that she could have used a few months as a WO's Apprentice). I would not have such an objection to this if she (and her predecessors) had actually fufilled a nobles obligation to they people they are claiming. Ignoring Perrin and looking only at her interaction with Mat in Salidar and on the way to EB, what did she do? Did she treat Mat as she would have Davram Bashere had he been leading five thousand men and sitting outside the AS camp? Absolutely not. She never treated him as a person worthy of respect (this includes her interactions with him in ToM). Would she have spent the entire trip to EB trying to suborn the loyalty of Bashere's men if he had been the general leading the troops to help protect her in EB? I doubt it, but she didn't give it a second thought when they were Mat's men. To me, her threatening to hang Perrin is along the exact same lines. Her whole attitude of "I am Queen and therefore those people loyalty is mine" to me is very childish. When she grows up and figures out what Nyn learned years ago, that a ruler has to earn respect and loyalty, then I might like her, but right now she is really no better than all the Tarien Lords that Rand stripped privileges away from, claiming the loyalty of a people that she has done nothing to earn the respect of.

 

For me, her scenes with Gawyn are the only scenes in the entire book in which she was remotely likable.

 

Another reason for disliking her in general is because Brigette is one of my favorite characters, and I have felt so sorry for for having been bonded to one who is so reckless with her own life. She knows that her own death (or stilling/burning out) would kill Brigette, but she still continues to do stupid things that could kill her (or since Min's visions preclude death, maim her or burn her out [which would have the same reaction of Brigette as her death would]).

[Suttree]

I would not have such an objection to this if she (and her predecessors) had actually fufilled a nobles obligation to they people they are claiming.

 

Are you basing this on the TR's being largely forgotten by the world at large? The quality of life & rights of the people in Andor are far above the norm in Randland. The level of patriotism you see in that country would not be present if the nobles ignored their duties.

 

Did she treat Mat as she would have Davram Bashere had he been leading five thousand men and sitting outside the AS camp? Absolutely not.

 

Davram Bashere is widely know to be on of the great generals of his time and an older Lord who is world renowned. At that point in the story Elayne does not have the knowledge we do of Mat's memories or accomplishments and is going of off his reputation as conveyed by Egwene and Nynaeve.

 

Another reason for disliking her in general is because Brigette is one of my favorite characters, and I have felt so sorry for for having been bonded to one who is so reckless with her own life. She knows that her own death (or stilling/burning out) would kill Brigette,

 

Are you forgetting that she originally saved Birgitte's life when enacting the bond? In addition we have seen warders survive their Aes Sedai's death. It would not necessarily kill Birgitte. Elayne's actions on the whole have not been anymore reckless than other characters. I've never understood why she is judged differently in this regard.

[sleepinghour]

Are you forgetting that she originally saved Birgitte's life when enacting the bond? In addition we have seen warders survive their Aes Sedai's death. It would not necessarily kill Birgitte. Elayne's actions on the whole have not been anymore reckless than other characters. I've never understood why she is judged differently in this regard.

Most Warders don't survive it, and at this point we don't know what would happen to a female Warder, or to an Aes Sedai bonded to an Asha'man. Given what we do know about the female Warder bond, and add to that Birgitte's present state of depression, I think it's more than likely Birgitte would die. Which wouldn't be that much of a disaster since she'd go right back to T'A'R, but Rand probably wouldn't have made it back to sanity in VoG if Elayne had died. He would have given up completely.

 

What struck me as a bit off in ToM was Elayne's comment about wanting one of Perrin's kids to marry hers. I don't see Elayne as someone who'd want to arrange a political marriage for her children, especially considering how bad Morgase's turned out.

[MichaelOfTheWhite]

I think it's quite an achievement that BS can write someone else's character and we, the readers, still have a sense of familiarity with them. It's a good example of BS's writing skill. :)

 

I really enjoyed the boat scene. I've got three older sisters and reading that part of ToM felt like an authentic interaction between brother and sister like I've not read in any other book. It's not something I'd expected to pick up in the book: a lovely description of intimacy between siblings. As a result I grew to like Elayne more because I can relate to her a lot more now.

[Ananta]

Are you forgetting that she originally saved Birgitte's life when enacting the bond? In addition we have seen warders survive their Aes Sedai's death. It would not necessarily kill Birgitte. Elayne's actions on the whole have not been anymore reckless than other characters. I've never understood why she is judged differently in this regard.

 

Mat would just have to **** the depression out of her, like Myrelle did to Lan :x

[yoniy0]

Er, where was the option for "Her character felt like a positive natural evolution of her character?"

Here you go. Feel free to change your vote.

[randsc]

There's nothing wrong with Elayne that a guillotine can't cure.

[yoniy0]

There's nothing wrong with Elayne that a guillotine can't cure.

Vote, then.

[randsc]

There's nothing wrong with Elayne that a guillotine can't cure.

Vote, then.

 

OK, I did.

 

To answer the original question, I thought Elayne was written differently than in the most recent preceding books. She reminded me of the earlier Elayne. Who was mostly less obnoxious.

 

But still a princess. Yuck. Guillotine, guillotine! Chop, chop, chop!

[Dream]

Her character seemed consistent to me. Good-intentioned, intelligent, capable, impulsive, likes to get personally involved, is totally comfortable with her birthright (unlike Gawyn). I think she has grown during ToM, especially after the blunder in the dungeon. Not everything she touches will become gold. Why she didn't realize this the last time she was captured when lots of people died because of her I don't know. I guess you have to threaten her a bit. Overall, I enjoyed her scenes. I was surprised but encouraged by her handling of Perrin. She seemed more responsible and less childish.

[David Selig]

I think Sanderson did a really good job with Elayne nad kept her consistent with the previous volumes, of course changed a little bit due to having more responsibility now. There were one or two moments when she felt a bit off, like the already mentioned suggestion for arranged marriage between hers and Perrin's yet to be born kids, but overall she was fine.

 

Thoough I kept wondering what happened to Reene Harfor, she was mentioned all the time in the Elayne chapters in books 9-11 and now seems to have disappeared for some reason. But this is a really minor thing

[Muad Cheade]

Elayne has changed but it is a natural progression, similar to what Perrin went through in the book as well.

 

...and then she ruined it all in the meeting with Perrin.

As far as I'm concerned she owed Perrin and the whole of the Two Rivers an apology and great big thanks right off the bat.

Instead she talked about rebels and the like even though the "uprising" occured while Rahvin was in power.

Why did she owe the Two Rivers an apology? For their rebellion? So what if it occurred while Rahvin was in power? He didn't have anything to do with it.

 

The whole title of Stewart of the Two Rivers was contrived long before Perrin and co stepped foot in the Royal Palace and it sickened me to see Perrin "played" like that when he is the only reason the Two Rivers even still exists to be a "province" in Andor.

It was definitely not planned before the meeting. I don't know how you got that impression. You are right about Perrin being key in saving the Two Rivers.

 

Seems like every time I think Elayne is finally coming around, she does or says something reminds me that she is still a spoiled and pompous child.

How so exactly? The deals she made with the Kin and Mat and the Band provide healthcare and security to her nation(s). She has definitely matured.

 

The biggest failing for both her and Egwene is their inability to accept that someone else might actually be more important than them.

I don't buy that reasoning at all. And to be honest, there are only a few people who are "more important" than the Queen of Andor and Cairhien and the Amyrlin Seat.

 

For the most part both of them regard Rand on equal terms for pete's sake when the reality is that Rand is many times more important than both of them put together and Mat and Perrin many times more important than either of them separately.

Once again, how so? They are two of the few people who relate to him as Rand, not the Dragon Reborn.

 

It's not like the both of them don't know that both Mat and Perrin are ta'veren and linked to Rand, meaning they have significant part to play in whether or not the Shadow is defeated.

Yet both of them continue to put the White Tower's and Andor's interests above that of saving the world itself.

I would disagree. Both knew that they had to address the problems in Andor and the White Tower before moving on towards Tarmon Gai'din.

 

Look at Darlin in Tear for example, he has Tear's interest in mind but at the same time he knows what's at stake on a world wide level.

He rebelled against the Dragon Reborn and tried to kill Mat! You should dislike him the most by your above reasoning.

 

Take his letter back to Egwene, basically he replies that he understands her concerns and he will also try to convince Rand on another course of action but if the Dragon Reborn still decides that it is the best course of action then he will follow that decision.

What he said was that he was loyal to Rand for what he did for Tear and agreed that he grows more erratic every day although what do you expect from the Dragon Reborn. He didn't say that he would follow Rand if he decided to break the seals. Specifically, all he said concerning the seals was "Still, your words bring me concern. The destruction of the seals is not something we should undertake without careful discussion."

 

In other words....he says, who do you honestly think I should listen to and follow in the end, the man reborn and sent to save us or the third Amyrlin Seat to hold the chair in the last 2 years heh.

He actually basically said, "I am loyal to Rand and I will stick to that no matter how crazy he gets, but maybe we should wait on the whole breaking the seals part." Also as Egwene notes, by him writing a letter, instead of sending a messenger, he was saying that "I do not care if the Lord Dragon discovers what I have written. I stand by it."

[Jak o' the Shadows]

She was tolerable in the earlier books. But as time has gone on she's gotten more and more self-centered and moody.

 

 

Then she got pregnant and now it's 10x as bad. So I'll go with it's natural progression.

 

Although, in the last book it was disheartening to hear her thinking about how to use this person and this person, even Mat and his band, for her own gains. That might be 'how a queen acts' but it's also against the sort of thing she was talking about in earlier books, about treating people(Mat) with respect, and follow Jin'e'Toh...

 

Maybe the point is she seems a little lost without Avi there to smack her upside the head now and then...

 

 

 

her and Egwene are neck and neck for 'most in need of a reality check' or good hard kick in the rear...