Who Forasaken are masquerading as. Level 11 Spoilers

[Asgard Thorin]

You know Robert, going on historical evidence its unlikely Moses existed at all? His stories are parallels of the Marduk mythos, written in a style that is linguistically incorrect for the supposed time period, yet matching the linguistics of the time of the Diaspora--when the Isralites were in Babylon (Marduk town). And of course there is absolutely no historical evidence Moses existed contextually.

 

That being said Robert is completely correct about the translation issues.

 

If you view it correctly, there's no evidence George Washington existed. You can doubt anything if you work at it enough. Some things have to be taken on faith.

[DemandredFO]

So what you two are saying is that Demandred was Moses. ;D

[seasnake]

No, he must be MosesFO to stay consistent.

 

Funny enough, the name Moses does relate to the Hebrew water, but it is more likely that the name Moses meant "Son" as he was found and named by the Daughter of Pharaoh. 

 

Looking at Ramses, which in Hebrew would be written the equivalent of RMSS, and Moses, MSS, you find that the major difference is R which stood for Ra, which was the title of Pharoah.  The Son of Ra, RMSS, Ramses.  The son of ?, MSS, Moses. 

 

That's most likely where the name would have come from and offers the idea of two things 1) there is some basis for the story of a Hebrew raised in a court of Egyptians or 2) the ancient author knew enough about Egypt to name their protagonist with the most logical name a Hebrew foundling would have received in an Egyptian court. 

 

Most scripture is a matter of faith anyway, rather than explanation.

[DemandredFO]

I'm confused does that mean Demandred is Ra, I thought he got nuked when oneill went through the stargate

[Zaladane]

wow thats alot to read through and will alter my post by the time I'm finished reading this thread of course  :D

 

 

I've gone through the first couple of pages and would just like to offer my opinions so far.  I think Taim is is Taim. There's nothing to say that new people can't be "chosen"  I think Taim is one of these.  A new Forsaken. 

 

Demandred is - beleive it or not one of my favorite characters, originally because his name is so close to my real name.  But I think he's the one who will ultimately become Nae'Blis and take over Ishamaels position.  Every other AOL Forsaken I think will die, and all the others will be new.  I've always thought that Ish was from the previous age (before the age of legends) and that 'one' always makes it to the next age after (if that makes sense) 

 

And I don't beleive the D man masquerades as anyone else, I just think he's too cool for that.  And yes I'm a noob. ;D

 

And as I said I will alter this a bit as I view other posts in this thread, I'm pretty objective so I will of course concede to certain points, natch.

 

[Asgard Thorin]

If you view it correctly, there's no evidence George Washington existed. You can doubt anything if you work at it enough. Some things have to be taken on faith.

 

I'm fairly certain that Luckers is referring to specific scholarly problems associated with Moses that would not and do not apply to George Washington, or even, say, Hammurabi or Julius Caesar.  However, since that has nothing to do with the translation issues (whether Moses specifically existed or not, the Hebrew language is still mistranslated in the English KJV and all descendants from it), why don't we just let this particular subject drop, especially in this thread?

 

Assuming tht the NIV and NASV were derived from the King James...yes, there are mistranslations, but that leaves more room for faith. (Drop the subject? But we were getting on so well....)

 

Taim: I can't deny the possibility that Taim might merely be Taim, but we know from book Eight Moridin is "playing both sides" we know from book Nine Taim ordered the Cairhienin hit on Rand and we know from book Eleven that Taim knows the Forsaken watchword. There is no evidence (in the books) that Taim had any training from one of the Forsaken, and when I looked closely at his symbol it most closely matched that of Be'lal. Sammael had a similar sigil, but when I re-read that section of book Five(Silver Arrow, methinks) I think his fist only clutched one lightning bolt. Now, RJ opened a can of worms saying that balefire doesn't automatically preclude transmigration, the amount of power Moiraine used was absolutely minimal, Rahvin's deathblow most certainly was not, the last action of Be'lal was not undone (I think) and with Ishy right there the DO would have been aware of Be's demise immediately (no time of the critical window lost) whereas with Ravhin, the critical window was gone before he died.(I believe that's a safe assumption.) Be'lal is the only Forsaken never developed. From a certain point of view (you're going to find that many of the truths we cling- sorry, got side-tracked) it makes sense logically for Be' to have been salvaged and all we know of Taim before book Six is that he existed, was Saldaean, was captured, and escaped. His entire pre-Ashaman view point is conspicuously absent. Plus there're his knowledge and reactions in the first conversation with Rand. To be honest, my initial reaction to the counterpoint of my view of "so-called Aiel" was shock. I thought, and think, that that evidence is undisputable. The counterargument to that is just so absurd, to me, that I still have a hard time believing that people actually believe it. I even considered briefly that I'd stumbled on a truth that was not yet to be revealed, and the nay-sayers came up with that weak argument because they had a contractual obligation to, and it was the best they could think of. Of course, then it's too late to make a better one...

 

Now, there're many points against BelTaim (it's impossible to remember them all), but we never actually have Taim described from anyone's pov but Rand's and Rand's ability to judge a Saldaean's age accurately is never proven. It's also possible that whoever came to Rand claiming to be Taim was using an imperfect Illusion and that is why he looks different later (I think someone mentioned that). The character of Taim is at too important a crossroads, methinks, for him to simply be a traitor. RJ knew he could only introduce so many of this world's people to us, and creating a White Ajah in the Black Tower seems to be too important to leave to an underling without introducing that in a passage to the reader. Of course, if Be's unavailible, then the default would be Moridin, using Illusion. Note he never touches Rand. He being Taim. (Sheesh! Talk about identity theft!!!!)

[Bela]

Be'lal was killed with balefire.  Be'lal is dead.  Mazrim Taim is not Demandred.  Mazrim Taim is not Be'lal.  Mazrim Taim is not Abraham Lincoln, Ben Adaephon Delat, Corwin of Amber, or the dude who makes my super-cold Blizzard at Dairy Queen.  He's not your paper-boy, a crossdressing Shalon din Togara Morning Tide, or the Dark One's pet chihuahua.  Mazrim Taim is Mazrim Taim.  Let it GO!!!

 

He COULD be the guy making your blizzard.  :D

[Dark Justice]

I think Taim is Demandred no matter what RJ said....

 

*watches RAWs head explode*

 

 

Just kidding.. Really.. Taim is Taim. And that is bad enough.

[Graendals favourite]

I do too completely think it possible Taim is Be'lal. It would make the most sense, and there is nothing to say it is not possible. This if course does not mean that Taim is Be'lal, but all things considered I believe it is more likely to be so than not.

 

*goes back to searching connections between Egwene and Chesa*

[Majsju]

I do too completely think it possible Taim is Be'lal. It would make the most sense, and there is nothing to say it is not possible. This if course does not mean that Taim is Be'lal, but all things considered I believe it is more likely to be so than not.

 

 

 

Having a balefired guy brought back to the game, after all the times we have been told that is impossible, after RJ specifically mentioned Be'lal as one of those who will not come back, after all the problems with timing, personality etc that Taim being Be'lal (or any of the forsaken), being the thing that makes the most sense?

 

Right. And Logain is actually Rahvin, just waiting to get his revenge on Rand. Hey, could totally happen, never mind what RJ and the books say.

[Graendals favourite]

Having a balefired guy brought back to the game, after all the times we have been told that is impossible, after RJ specifically mentioned Be'lal as one of those who will not come back, after all the problems with timing, personality etc that Taim being Be'lal (or any of the forsaken), being the thing that makes the most sense?

Except that none of those reasons is very good. RJ was speaking generally, when he said someone balefired cannot be brought back, for there is the obvious caveat that weak balefire does not do the trick. We could reason out as much reading Lord of Chaos. Secondly, you still misread that passage, what RJ said was that Rahvin would not come back, while Be'lal was a different matter. If the timing is tight at places, then everyone's timing is what it is, and there is no need to laze around just to broaden the time frame, there is no reason Be'taim not to immediately pursue new plans. Furthermore, Taim's personality matches Be'lal's in a way that practically screams a connection between the two. Ergo, it makes sense.  ;D

[Asgard Thorin]

Be'lal was killed with balefire.  Be'lal is dead.  Mazrim Taim is not Demandred.  Mazrim Taim is not Be'lal.  Mazrim Taim is not Abraham Lincoln, Ben Adaephon Delat, Corwin of Amber, or the dude who makes my super-cold Blizzard at Dairy Queen.  He's not your paper-boy, a crossdressing Shalon din Togara Morning Tide, or the Dark One's pet chihuahua.  Mazrim Taim is Mazrim Taim.  Let it GO!!!

 

Nope. Can't. Until it's proven Taim is just Taim. I.e. when Brandon Sanderson tells me so.

[Asgard Thorin]

I do too completely think it possible Taim is Be'lal. It would make the most sense, and there is nothing to say it is not possible. This if course does not mean that Taim is Be'lal, but all things considered I believe it is more likely to be so than not.

 

 

 

Having a balefired guy brought back to the game, after all the times we have been told that is impossible, after RJ specifically mentioned Be'lal as one of those who will not come back, after all the problems with timing, personality etc that Taim being Be'lal (or any of the forsaken), being the thing that makes the most sense?

 

Right. And Logain is actually Rahvin, just waiting to get his revenge on Rand. Hey, could totally happen, never mind what RJ and the books say.

 

When did he say that? What were the exact words? Unless he said 'Be'lal is dead'(and I've never heard any of you trumpet that. You would've if you could've) then there is room for doubt, unlike Sammael.

[Majsju]

Having a balefired guy brought back to the game, after all the times we have Except that none of those reasons is very good. RJ was speaking generally, when he said someone balefired cannot be brought back, for there is the obvious caveat that weak balefire does not do the trick. We could reason out as much reading Lord of Chaos. Secondly, you still misread that passage, what RJ said was that Rahvin would not come back, while Be'lal was a different matter. If the timing is tight at places, then everyone's timing is what it is, and there is no need to laze around just to broaden the time frame, there is no reason Be'taim not to immediately pursue new plans. Furthermore, Taim's personality matches Be'lal's in a way that practically screams a connection between the two. Ergo, it makes sense.  ;D

 

No, I did not misread anything, because it is not possible to read it in any other way. Unless you want to assume the people at Theoryland, who are very knowledgable about WOT, and who unlike you wre actually there, managed to completely miss something that would have been a huge revelation.

 

And if you believe Be'lals personality is even remotely similar to that of Taim, I strongly suggest you do some reading. They are opposites on every account that matters.

[dlan4327]

Like lots of people have been saying isn't it theoretically possible that Moraine's stream of balefire was weak enough that it's effects could be reversed?

[lt;(^-^)gt;]

*poke*poke*

 

Like lots of people have been saying isn't it theoretically possible that Moraine's stream of balefire was weak enough that it's effects could be reversed?

Yes: RJ said it was possible, and we don't know how much of the OP Moiraine used on Be'lal.  It might have been weak enough.

 

No, I did not misread anything, because it is not possible to read it in any other way. Unless you want to assume the people at Theoryland, who are very knowledgable about WOT, and who unlike you wre actually there, managed to completely miss something that would have been a huge revelation.

That is bad logic right there.  We can only go on evidence and facts.  The quote is incomplete and doesn't say anything about Be'lal besides mentioning his name in a separate sentence.  If the people at theoryland are so knowledgeable, why can't they remember what RJ said in that last sentence to fill it in?

 

And if you believe Be'lals personality is even remotely similar to that of Taim, I strongly suggest you do some reading. They are opposites on every account that matters.

How about this:

He is the Forsaken about whom the least is known.

Well, that certainly hurts the argument.  For all we know, Be'lal could be exactly like Taim.

During the war he held several field commands, apparently proving himself a more than adequate if not outstanding general

Like Taim, who can lead men in battle but isn't a great general.

he envied and later hated Lews Therin

So does Taim, apparently.

the Forsaken known as Be’lal the Envious

That fits with Taim as well.  See his reaction to Rand giving him the pins.

he combined and surpassed the strengths of both Rahvin and Sammael, being both a patient and cunning planner and a capable fighter willing to do battle directly with the foe.

More cunning than Rahvin, a better fighter than Sammael.  We don't know Taim's fighting abilities very well but he seems dangerous.  Perhaps he is better than Sammael was.  Rahvin's plans were very simple - kidnapping, compulsion, murder.  Taim's plots are at least as complicated than Rahvin's.

 

Wait, foo!  Be'lal was, like, the Netweaver, you know?  A manipulator!  Taim didn't weave no nets, duh!

Yeah, Taim's plans aren't amazingly complicated.  Neither were Be'lal's, that we saw.  He kidnapped Rand's friends and waited for him at Callandor.  How is that "net" (which failed!) better than Taim's daring but effective plan to become the leader of Rand's most powerful fighting force?  He's tried to kill Rand a few times already without getting caught, and Rand still trusts him to lead the Asha'man.

 

I don't give this theory much hope (even though it's my favorite), because I believe there should be more foreshadowing.  However, saying that Be'lal and Taim are opposites is just wrong.  The little evidence we have does not show them to be very different.

[Hallow]

Well, Taim ridicules the use of a sword, Bel'al was a blademaster. Also so for those who say bel'al is Taim because of the weak balefire we know that Moiraine uses very weak balefire, by her own account. After Rand kills the darkhound attacking Mat she says that he uses a massive ammount of the power to create very strong balfire, whilst she uses very little to make very weak balefire, however im not supporting the theory, I think Taim is Taim.

[Osan`gar]

Well, Taim ridicules the use of a sword, Bel'al was a blademaster. Also so for those who say bel'al is Taim because of the weak balefire we know that Moiraine uses very weak balefire, by her own account. After Rand kills the darkhound attacking Mat she says that he uses a massive ammount of the power to create very strong balfire, whilst she uses very little to make very weak balefire, however im not supporting the theory, I think Taim is Taim.

 

The DO stated that he could not save Rahvin because he was destroyed with balefire. well so was Bel'al granted that it was stated by RJ that it is possible to save one destroyed by balefire. he also stated any such rescue would have to be done almost immediately. so i do not think it likely that Bel'al is back at all. in all likely hood he was beyond rescue. as you said Taim is Taim, however i think Taim is a "new" dreadlord who really wants to be chosen.

[lt;(^-^)gt;]

I have two explanations for the sword discrepancy, but both are admittedly weak.

 

1) Be'lal died with a sword in his hands.  He's not going to make that mistake again, and he is bitter that his substantial skills were rendered useless by the OP.  That explains a disdain for swords.  We don't know if Taim can use a sword or not, just that he doesn't seem to like them.  Bad memories?

 

2) Taim is fooling everyone into thinking he can't use a sword so he can surprise his attackers.  That fits with Be'lal's manipulative nature as well.

 

I don't think the sword thing is very conclusive.

[Mr Ares]

I have two explanations for the sword discrepancy, but both are admittedly weak.

I have a third one, one that is much stronger: Taim isn't Be'lal.

[Asgard Thorin]

Nope. Can't. Until it's proven Taim is just Taim. I.e. when Brandon Sanderson tells me so.

 

I didn't think you actually would.  I was just venting.

 

I, too, have once vented. (Believe it or not) Or twice. Peace be with you.

[Asgard Thorin]

  The little evidence we have does not show them to be very different.

 

Indeed, aye, ond verily. Amen.

 

As for the sword thing, his contempt for swords comes from Rand's point of view. Perhaps his contempt was for the men learning them (as unworthy of the swordsmans art) and he took it in that direction to continue deceiving Rand. Any Netweaver would have to deceive. No, <(^-^)> I don't think that argument is weak at all. It was a sword that he was killed over last time. No Forsaken would remember dying very fondly.

[Graendals favourite]

Having a balefired guy brought back to the game, after all the times we have Except that none of those reasons is very good. RJ was speaking generally, when he said someone balefired cannot be brought back, for there is the obvious caveat that weak balefire does not do the trick. We could reason out as much reading Lord of Chaos. Secondly, you still misread that passage, what RJ said was that Rahvin would not come back, while Be'lal was a different matter. If the timing is tight at places, then everyone's timing is what it is, and there is no need to laze around just to broaden the time frame, there is no reason Be'taim not to immediately pursue new plans. Furthermore, Taim's personality matches Be'lal's in a way that practically screams a connection between the two. Ergo, it makes sense.  ;D

 

No, I did not misread anything, because it is not possible to read it in any other way. Unless you want to assume the people at Theoryland, who are very knowledgable about WOT, and who unlike you wre actually there, managed to completely miss something that would have been a huge revelation.

 

And if you believe Be'lals personality is even remotely similar to that of Taim, I strongly suggest you do some reading. They are opposites on every account that matters.

I did not notice there had been replies in this thread, sometimes this board moves so quickly you don't if you don't check on the right day. Anyway, on top of what others have said:

 

Yea, taking the quality of the theorists at Theoryland into the discussion is really bad form. I do not mean to insult people I do not know, but neither am I going to patronise them by saying their theories should not stand on their own: I can read that quote just as well as anyone else, and since it doesn't say what you claim (and it even makes more sense saying the opposite) , anyone who thinks it does, and builds a theory on such a false belief, is not practising very good theorising. Not that I know how much this has been discussed at Theoryland, I think too many people did not take Be'taim seriously enough to consider it, and so it was not considered. Yet giving an internet discussion forum some kind of authority is like saying the Catholic church probably did know better about the Earth and the Sun.

 

Equally, the purported differences between Taim and Be'lal seem a myth. Nowhere do we see them except in people's imaginations, so little is known about Be'lal. While Alviarin's assessment of Be'lal fits very well with Taim, too. Taim's evility of course comes through, and his Forsaken-like behaviour, but he is a cold calculator, who only sees people as pieces on a board. I bet Bashere was expecting someone less refined in behaviour, he was surprised Taim was Taim because Taim had likely been more of the rough or impulsive sort.

[Muad Cheade]

I don't think there's a way for Be'lal to be Taim. When Be'lal was essentially ruler in Tear, Taim was still running around in Saldea. In fact after Rand was proclaimed Dragon Reborn, there was a man in a tavern that said Taim and Logain were better Dragons than the one in the Stone, meaning that they wer active at the same time.

 

If Taim and Be'lal were one and the same, both the High Lords and Bashere would've noticed Be'lal and Taim's disappearance.

 

I'm kinda hoping Taim isn't a Darkfriend, just that he's mad. Remember when he tells Rand that "he must hold onto his sanity?" However, all signs point to him being a Darkfriend. Plus, with Taim's reaction to learning that Dashiva was a "traitor," it seemed to me that Taim knew he was a Forsaken or high-ranking Darkfriend and didn't want to have to try to hunt him down for Rand. Be'lal wouldn't have known Dashiva's identity.

[Graendals favourite]

But of course Be'lal being Taim in the same way as Lanfear likely is Cabriana Mecandes. This is to say, that Taim was captured by those who freed him, taken to Shayol Ghul, where the Dark One inserted him Be'lal's soul in his body. There would have been need of a body that could channel, and Taim would have been available for capture. Be'lal would have been more useful, serving the Shadow, than Taim, since Be'lal was fully trained and the Dark One knew he could trust him to an extent, unlike Taim who would have been unknown to the Dark One. Taim's reputation would give an excellent cover for a recycled Forsaken, and a little effort was made to seeing Be'lal could pass for Taim, in Rand's eyes at least.

 

Likely Taim, whoever he was inside, knew Dashiva was to be obeyed, unless he himself was Chosen, in which case Dashiva was someone to cooperate with, plus a potential rival.