Who Forasaken are masquerading as. Level 11 Spoilers

[Muad Cheade]

But of course Be'lal being Taim in the same way as Lanfear likely is Cabriana Mecandes. This is to say, that Taim was captured by those who freed him, taken to Shayol Ghul, where the Dark One inserted him Be'lal's soul in his body. There would have been need of a body that could channel, and Taim would have been available for capture. Be'lal would have been more useful, serving the Shadow, than Taim, since Be'lal was fully trained and the Dark One knew he could trust him to an extent, unlike Taim who would have been unknown to the Dark One. Taim's reputation would give an excellent cover for a recycled Forsaken, and a little effort was made to seeing Be'lal could pass for Taim, in Rand's eyes at least.

 

Likely Taim, whoever he was inside, knew Dashiva was to be obeyed, unless he himself was Chosen, in which case Dashiva was someone to cooperate with, plus a potential rival.

 

I'm not sure Lanfear is in Cabriana Mecandes' body (check the bottom for why- http://linuxmafia.com/jordan/1_dark/1.2_forsaken2/1.2.4_cyndane.html). The Dark One doesn't need a body that can channel for a host for the Forsaken, else Balthamel wouldn't have been put in a woman's body. Also, remember when Taim first meets Rand and he taunts Bashere about how two of his soldiers and their wives only "want to serve" after attempting to kill him (implied to be a result of Taim's use of Compulsion)? If that was Be'lal in Taim's body, Be'lal would have absolutely no knowledge of that. There are too many people who knew Taim earlier for Be'lal to pull that off smoothly (That's why Halima murdered Anaiya and Karen). Plus, that still doesn't explain why Taim wanted Rand to try to hold on to his sanity unless he's one of those crazies like Elza who think Rand must live in order for the Dark One can defeat him.

 

Yeah. You're probably right about Dashiva.

[Nightstrike]

I'm not sure Lanfear is in Cabriana Mecandes' body. The Dark One doesn't need a body that can channel for a host for the Forsaken, else Balthamel wouldn't have been put in a woman's body. Also, remember when Taim first meets Rand and he taunts Bashere about how two of his soldiers and their wives only "want to serve" after attempting to kill him (implied to be a result of Taim's use of Compulsion)? If that was Be'lal in Taim's body, Be'lal would have absolutely no knowledge of that. There are too many people who knew Taim earlier for Be'lal to pull that off smoothly (That's why Halima murdered Anaiya and Karen).

I agree that Lanfear isn't in Cabriana Mecande's body. I also believe that Taim is likely to be none other than himself - a "present Age" channeler. Possibly turned by a 13+13 circle, but he could also be just like the other darkfriends (by his own choice). However, I do believe that the DO needs a body that can channel. Otherwise any body would do just fine. We know they don't.

 

 

[Graendals favourite]

I'm not sure Lanfear is in Cabriana Mecandes' body (check the bottom for why- http://linuxmafia.com/jordan/1_dark/1.2_forsaken2/1.2.4_cyndane.html). The Dark One doesn't need a body that can channel for a host for the Forsaken, else Balthamel wouldn't have been put in a woman's body. Also, remember when Taim first meets Rand and he taunts Bashere about how two of his soldiers and their wives only "want to serve" after attempting to kill him (implied to be a result of Taim's use of Compulsion)? If that was Be'lal in Taim's body, Be'lal would have absolutely no knowledge of that. There are too many people who knew Taim earlier for Be'lal to pull that off smoothly (That's why Halima murdered Anaiya and Karen). Plus, that still doesn't explain why Taim wanted Rand to try to hold on to his sanity unless he's one of those crazies like Elza who think Rand must live in order for the Dark One can defeat him.

I cannot check anything now, however there are a few things to be corrected here. First off, it is mentioned specifically that for recycling, a suitable body needs to be acquired, and they are not so easily found. Also, it isn't impossible for Be'lal to learn something about Taim, especially when he just so happens to use the particular tidbit to convince people he really is Taim. I would reference Aran'gar who could "recite Cabriana's whole life" if need be. It isn't like all of this is secret.

 

One thing is that Be'lal as Taim would have come rather late to the game, the Let's Rule the World Us Chosen -game, so there would be not many places where to build a powerbase. He would have chosen to build his power near Rand, which would not be possible should Rand die immediately or go crazy. Later, Be'lal would not care what happened to Rand.

 

On Mecandes, I simply point out that Cyndane's description matches that of Cabriana's quite well, though that is hardly convincing in itself, only Cabriana was available at the time Lanfear needed a new body.

 

 

There is no relation between the two at all, especially if Taim was already a Darkfriend, or turned using the 13/13 method.  Cabriana Mecandes was clearly not a Darkfriend, and so was only useful for her body.  There are zero indications that Taim was similarly used.  Taim's personality and Be'lal's are completely different.  While Be'lal would probably be capable of acting, the differences still cannot be reasonably be taken as proof, or even being indicative, that Be'lal is Taim.

 

"Look, they act different! They must be the same guy!"

 

This is all just silliness.

It is good that you notice there is no relation between Be'lal&Taim and Lanfear& Cabriana, because of course there is not. You might notice I was saying that of course Be'lal was not posing as Taim while he ruled as a High Lord in Tear, but that he was transmigrated and thus Be'lal is Taim in the same way as Lanfear likely is Cabriana. Zero comprehension of what is written brings out the acid it seems.

 

This argument about Taim and Be'lal's personalities seems like a religious dogma: no one can point out any differences, and how could they when Be'lal has been really seen so little in the books, yet people insist on it nonetheless and simply refuse to think on it. It reminds me of the arduous argument that Graendal could not kill Asmodean because she was frightened to be in the same city as Rand, would have hid in a cupboard the whole battle, and in general killing people is just a little too rough for her; how little they know her.

 

The point I guess you were addressing was: You say, Be'lal and Taim act differently, so they must be the same guy. I say, Bashere was surprised by Taim's behaviour, and since Taim fits all the more reliable accounts of Be'lal's behaviour, it is likely Taim in reality is Be'lal.

 

Whether people believe it or not, I trust Alviarin's assessment of Taim's character further than Moiraine's deductions on his nicknames. Which latter Taim also fits. Just as a good liar is one who is not caught, a good schemer for power is one who manages to achieve power without the scheming being noticed in particular. Taim has managed to get into a position where he commands an army of Dreadlords.

[Majsju]

[quote author=Graendal's favourite link=topic=26702.msg1126993#msg1126993

Yea, taking the quality of the theorists at Theoryland into the discussion is really bad form. I do not mean to insult people I do not know, but neither am I going to patronise them by saying their theories should not stand on their own: I can read that quote just as well as anyone else, and since it doesn't say what you claim (and it even makes more sense saying the opposite) , anyone who thinks it does, and builds a theory on such a false belief, is not practising very good theorising. Not that I know how much this has been discussed at Theoryland, I think too many people did not take Be'taim seriously enough to consider it, and so it was not considered. Yet giving an internet discussion forum some kind of authority is like saying the Catholic church probably did know better about the Earth and the Sun.

 

You are completely missing the point here.

Whether or not people considered Be'taim at this point is completely irrelevant. If RJ had said something that opened even the tiniest opportunity for Be'lal not being as balefired as he actually is, it would have been a huge revelation. However, theorising that there is a chance for Be'lal to come back is quite different from theorising that he in such eventuality would have been brought back as such a big character as Taim.

 

Either the people who reported what RJ said are dimwits who does not understand WOT very well, or RJ never said any such thing as you want to claim he did.

 

And if an internet forum can not have any kind of authority, I guess we can ask Jason to close down DM. After all, our discussions here are completely useless...

 

 

[Tai]

I'm sensing here that some people don't understand balefire. You are burned out from the pattern. RJ has said that balefired people cannot come back, and no evidence to the contrary has been found. It's that simple.

[Graendals favourite]

I did misunderstand your point, and apologize for that, although I should point out that the sentences I quoted from you are ... confusing ... at best in English.  That must be a function of the language difference, and is the cause of my misunderstanding.

Well, I must apologise in return for being irritable. I don't always take the time to think of the best way to say a thing, or reread and correct.

 

This kind of matter is difficult to discuss in that there are a lot of things to cover, one must be brief yet accurate and still try to come across clearly. Frustration is as much for not being able to address all relevant matters in the same post and still keep it coherent and accessible.

 

Ok, off the countering arguments, this is what really tests the matter.

 

Taim is blunt, to the point of rudeness.  Be'lal, in what little we know of him, was urbane and polite.

Now, is that so? I don't claim Be'lal is as scathing as Graendal, but Be'lal is hardly polite in his exchange with Rand. For example, "Is that what you think? Truly you know nothing." and "I thought you were neatly out of the way, woman. No matter. You are only an annoyance. A stinging fly. A biteme. I will cage you with the others, and teach you to serve the Shadow with your puny powers." Be'lal does not express himself crudely, but mocking he seems to be most of the time.

 

Taim demonstrates a contempt for swordplay.  Be'lal did not.

Be'lal demonstrates contempt for Haslin's teaching of swordplay. Be'lal is possibly the best swordsman alive, likely he feels contempt toward others futilely attempting to learn. Yet, of course, as Taim he cannot show his skills at swordsmanship, for blademasters simply do not pop out of the air, that would be trumpeting to the world that he is more than he seems. Of course, nowadays he need no longer care. Yet swordsmanship is something Be'lal can survive without practising, a sport more than something he needs as a weapon.

 

Their mannerisms and speech patterns are different.  Again, this is based on very little of Be'lal, but then, the scant evidence applies as much to those who claim they behave similarly as those who claim otherwise.

I contest that. Reading Be'lal in The Dragon Reborn: What Is Written in Prophecy and continuing with Lord of Chaos: A New Arrival, I totally see as the same person. Refined of speech, yet mocking, with a lightly amused facade.

 

Finally, I would point out that the difference in behavior is merely a tertiary argument.  The primary argument is that Be'lal was killed with balefire.  Dead, dead, dead.  The secondary argument is that there is a notable absence of positive evidence; contrast that with the fact that the identity of every other transmigrated Forsaken has been shown.

Yes, the difference in behaviour must be seen as something that does not prove anything on its own, since it is all subjective interpretations and we have so little on Be'lal.

 

And to the primary argument, Be'lal was killed with balefire, yet if the amount is small, this does not prevent recycling. This is confirmed by RJ. It is also obvious. The Dark One has a window of opportunity to secure a soul after a person is dead, the more time that passes the less likely he will be able to secure the soul, and because of this balefire can prevent him altogether: if the balefire is strong enough, the person really died far enough in the past that the window of opportunity is passed before the Dark One could react. Yet Moiraine is capable of a balefire that removes a few seconds from the target's life at best, similar to Rand saving Mat from those Darkhounds yet saliva remaining on his hand. So balefire, but small balefire. Died in Shayol Ghul, died elsewhere.

 

If Taim'lal is just another transmigrated original, why isn't he at any Forsaken coffee hours?  If Taim is a new Forsaken, there is some reason for Moridin to keep that secret; he's an ace in the hole.  If he is just Be'lal transmigrated, like half the other Forsaken in the room, there's no reason to do that.

This is a question, for which I don't know the answer. Likely, Moridin does not want to risk Taim's identity leaking to Rand: some of the others might reveal it in order to lessen Taim's position compared to their own. And knowledge is power, Moridin would not want to share if he doesn't have to. There was the chair last time, though.

 

There is no positive evidence of any kind.  In this case, since the Taim'lal theorists are the ones proposing an unusual scenario, the burden of proof is on them (including you, Graendal's Favourite).  And there is none.

There is the positive evidence of a huge amount of slip-ups by Taim, where Taim seems like he is one of the Forsaken. There is Taim's great knowledge of the power, how he has taught the Asha'man so much. It is dangerous to experiment with the Power.

 

This on top of Taim's unpleasant character, and his actions which would perhaps after all more suite a Forsaken than a simple Darkfriend, I mean ordering Rand killed and perhaps arranging that stabbing of Demira (I seem to recall it has not been properly explained), yet all in this paragraph is of course very speculative.

 

It is true that the finding of proof lies with those proposing the theory. Yet, this will become easier, when the opposition ceases to misinterpret the author's words to claim the whole thing is impossible out of hand. The discussion is, after all, more on whether it is possible than whether it is so; I for one have gone rather far in my estimate, and even I only say it is more likely than not that Taim is Be'lal. Before I should say more, again there must be much to reread, to consider Taim's actions from the perspective that he might be Be'lal.

 

Whether or not people considered Be'taim at this point is completely irrelevant. If RJ had said something that opened even the tiniest opportunity for Be'lal not being as balefired as he actually is, it would have been a huge revelation. However, theorising that there is a chance for Be'lal to come back is quite different from theorising that he in such eventuality would have been brought back as such a big character as Taim.

Well, I do not know why people have not speculated on Be'lal coming back further. Perhaps they have, only it hasn't really gotten very far. Likely, because there is so little known about Be'lal. However, there is a resonance with Taim that makes it worthwhile to consider him being back.

 

This is like a situation where there is a bucket, but it has a small hole. People claim it will hold the water, but as a physicist, I am simply unable to forget that the hole is there. For most purposes the bucket would do, that is usually balefire does the job, but if you just leave the water in the bucket, it will eventually drain. It is useless for storing water. I refer to the reply by Tai, which I will address. There is now way people can seriously consider Be'lal coming back, if they do not understand how balefire works better, instead of that blanket statement, which misunderstands both the Pattern and balefire.

 

Either the people who reported what RJ said are dimwits who does not understand WOT very well, or RJ never said any such thing as you want to claim he did.

People often do not think of everything. My opinion on collective thinking, which often is what rules discussion forums, amounts to people acting like lemmings. A bee colony is smarter as a whole than are individual bees, but for humans, the reverse is true. The saying, in a group it is the stupidity that intensifies, this saying is true. In any case, if an issue is more complicated, and there is, as here, a statement from RJ that appears to clear the whole issue when not read carefully, a statement that appears to confirm a misconseption, it becomes very difficult to build a good theory. Sometimes the truth comes out, some times not.

 

Essentially, the best of people miss obvious things that are right in front of them, and collective blindness is one form of collective behaviour.

 

And if an internet forum can not have any kind of authority, I guess we can ask Jason to close down DM. After all, our discussions here are completely useless...

Well perhaps some authority, but this is a sticky question. An internet forum can be expected to be a good source of information, to an extent. Like Wikipedia is a good source of information, to an extent. Furthermore, people can be wrong. Of course, many generally known 'truths' are wrong. Complacency in a perceived authority, this for one always leads to the Dark Side, so to speak.

 

In my opinion, one can stop questioning what is known and distrusting authorities when one is dead. Yet the discussion forum is about searching for truth and exchanging ideas, so it is far from useless. You just cannot trust what perhaps no one took the time to really reason out.

 

I'm sensing here that some people don't understand balefire. You are burned out from the pattern. RJ has said that balefired people cannot come back, and no evidence to the contrary has been found. It's that simple.

Not quite that simple. Everyone who dies is removed from the pattern. Your thread is no longer there. You did live while you lived, though. So in the past, you thread remains. As it does when Balefire is used. Balefire burns the thread back some time, but it does not burn it out entirely, unless the amount of balefire is immense or if it is used on an infant. Simply put, someone who is balefired actually dies before the balefire hits them, how much before depending on the strength of the balefire, yet they did live before this. Their past is not removed completely. What you say would mean the person never was, that nothing Be'lal did in his life had no longer happened. No, what he did a second before Moiraine hit him no longer happened, but that is that.

[lt;(^-^)gt;]

I'm sensing here that some people don't understand balefire. You are burned out from the pattern. RJ has said that balefired people cannot come back, and no evidence to the contrary has been found. It's that simple.

You should check back in this thread for RJ's quotes.  There is a loophole.  Here is a picture I drew which explains it:

[Majsju]

Well, I do not know why people have not speculated on Be'lal coming back further. Perhaps they have, only it hasn't really gotten very far. Likely, because there is so little known about Be'lal. However, there is a resonance with Taim that makes it worthwhile to consider him being back.

 

Oh, it has been speculated. And immidiatly shot down, because we have evidence that Be'lal is not coming back.

 

This is like a situation where there is a bucket, but it has a small hole. People claim it will hold the water, but as a physicist, I am simply unable to forget that the hole is there. For most purposes the bucket would do, that is usually balefire does the job, but if you just leave the water in the bucket, it will eventually drain. It is useless for storing water. I refer to the reply by Tai, which I will address. There is now way people can seriously consider Be'lal coming back, if they do not understand how balefire works better, instead of that blanket statement, which misunderstands both the Pattern and balefire.

 

As a physicist, you should put greater effort into examining all the pieces, not just the ones that fits your theory.

In this case, you assume that Moiraine only can weave extremely weak balefire. Which ignores the fact that Moiraine is not exactly weak, before the wondergirls showed up, she was one of the strongest Aes Sedai. And when she faces Be'lal, she has an angreal. Now, if a buffed-up Moiraine could only manage the weakest possible balefire, it would be impossible for anyone weaker than the wondergirls to even make the weave unaided, and they, with the exception of Nynaeve would be hard pressed to even manage that. That seems quite unreasonable, to put it mildly.

 

People often do not think of everything. My opinion on collective thinking, which often is what rules discussion forums, amounts to people acting like lemmings. A bee colony is smarter as a whole than are individual bees, but for humans, the reverse is true. The saying, in a group it is the stupidity that intensifies, this saying is true. In any case, if an issue is more complicated, and there is, as here, a statement from RJ that appears to clear the whole issue when not read carefully, a statement that appears to confirm a misconseption, it becomes very difficult to build a good theory. Sometimes the truth comes out, some times not.

 

Essentially, the best of people miss obvious things that are right in front of them, and collective blindness is one form of collective behaviour.

 

This is nowhere near the "collective thinking" you want to see it as. For starters, the exact quotations here stringly hints at the person making the initial report using audio, which eliminates bad memory causing the loss of a single line. We know that other reports during DCon were made based on audio. And the other people who were there would have made their own, individual notes, and possibly even more recordings. If Tamyrlin had reported entirely based on his memories, he would have made mistakes, and people would have pointed that out. Come on, you have been around long enough to know that there are few things the WOT fanbase loves more than catching someone making a mistake.

Strangely though, there is not a single complaint in the comments about the actual report. No "RJ said This, not That". Hmmm, could it be that Tamyrlin actually reported what RJ said, word by word, instead of managing to remember every single detail except for something that would have been a huge revelation, incidently the same something every single person in the room involved with the online community also managed to forget.

Could work if RJ was a channeler and Compelled them to forget, I suppose...

 

Well perhaps some authority, but this is a sticky question. An internet forum can be expected to be a good source of information, to an extent. Like Wikipedia is a good source of information, to an extent. Furthermore, people can be wrong. Of course, many generally known 'truths' are wrong. Complacency in a perceived authority, this for one always leads to the Dark Side, so to speak.

 

In my opinion, one can stop questioning what is known and distrusting authorities when one is dead. Yet the discussion forum is about searching for truth and exchanging ideas, so it is far from useless. You just cannot trust what perhaps no one took the time to really reason out.

 

Thing is, we are not talking about what people took their time to "reason out", what people took their time to theorise about. We are talking about what people actually heard. Here lies an important difference. What RJ said is a fact. What the things he said means, that is theory. A lot of the discussions here, a lot of the conclusions we have made are based on reports of what RJ have said at different times. If we followed your logic, we should toss all that out the window, because the people making the reports can have removed parts of the answers, and apparently the WOT fanbase are too stupid to notice such things, even if they were in the same room and heard the exact same words.

 

Given the context, what RJ said was that Be'lal got himself balefired, and is never coming back. There is no other way to interpret this. 

 

 

[Graendals favourite]

Oh, it has been speculated. And immidiatly shot down, because we have evidence that Be'lal is not coming back.

By the same people who think balefiring someone makes it impossible for the Dark One to bring back a person, despite RJ:s words to the contrary.

 

As a physicist, you should put greater effort into examining all the pieces, not just the ones that fits your theory.

In this case, you assume that Moiraine only can weave extremely weak balefire. Which ignores the fact that Moiraine is not exactly weak, before the wondergirls showed up, she was one of the strongest Aes Sedai. And when she faces Be'lal, she has an angreal. Now, if a buffed-up Moiraine could only manage the weakest possible balefire, it would be impossible for anyone weaker than the wondergirls to even make the weave unaided, and they, with the exception of Nynaeve would be hard pressed to even manage that. That seems quite unreasonable, to put it mildly.

You forget, that in Fires of Heaven: Gateways, Moiraine says the strongest balefire she can manage will only remove a few seconds from the Pattern. Also, there is no mention of the angreal when Moiraine confronts Be'lal; her hands are free. Against Be'lal, she would not need the angreal in any case, it not being known the Forsaken do not stay dead if not balefired sufficiently hard.

 

This is nowhere near the "collective thinking" you want to see it as. For starters, the exact quotations here stringly hints at the person making the initial report using audio, which eliminates bad memory causing the loss of a single line. We know that other reports during DCon were made based on audio. And the other people who were there would have made their own, individual notes, and possibly even more recordings. If Tamyrlin had reported entirely based on his memories, he would have made mistakes, and people would have pointed that out. Come on, you have been around long enough to know that there are few things the WOT fanbase loves more than catching someone making a mistake.

Strangely though, there is not a single complaint in the comments about the actual report. No "RJ said This, not That". Hmmm, could it be that Tamyrlin actually reported what RJ said, word by word, instead of managing to remember every single detail except for something that would have been a huge revelation, incidently the same something every single person in the room involved with the online community also managed to forget.

Could work if RJ was a channeler and Compelled them to forget, I suppose...

Either way, the quote does not mean what you claim. If the wording is inaccurate, of course the quote would mean very little. Assuming it is accurate, well RJ did usually know what he was saying when he was speaking. He does not say Be'lal could not be recycled in that quote. You want it to say that, so you read it so, but if you would look at it without such a motivation, you would see that if anything, it means the opposite, that it was possible Be'lal could be recycled. RJ is discussing the limitations to the Dark One's ability to recycle people. He is not discussing Be'lal in particular.

 

Thing is, we are not talking about what people took their time to "reason out", what people took their time to theorise about. We are talking about what people actually heard. Here lies an important difference. What RJ said is a fact.

And the only thing we know of this fact is what is reported. We know nothing else.

 

What the things he said means, that is theory. A lot of the discussions here, a lot of the conclusions we have made are based on reports of what RJ have said at different times. If we followed your logic, we should toss all that out the window, because the people making the reports can have removed parts of the answers, and apparently the WOT fanbase are too stupid to notice such things, even if they were in the same room and heard the exact same words.

Yes, certainly a collective mishmash of hearsay and speculation should be tossed out the window when considering evidence. Furthermore, the books should and do stand by themselves, the external explanations being less relevant. These reports can be an important part in the lives of the people they affected in the time, but gossip makes for poor evidence. You know, Gawyn will think a person he could consider a friend had killed his mother and sister because a peddler said it was rumoured, but if someone is stupid there it is Gawyn for leaping to conclusions, the peddler is not stupid in any regard, the peddler is relaying what he knows.

 

Given the context, what RJ said was that Be'lal got himself balefired, and is never coming back. There is no other way to interpret this.

Given the context, RJ said what came to the Dark One bringing back people, there was a difference between the balefiring of Rahvin and Be'lal. It is impossible to know RJ's thoughts further, since he did not wish to expand on what the situation with Be'lal was.

[Majsju]

Ah well.  I'll just be really happy when all this is over and it turns out Taim is just Taim.

 

Meh, that will be Brandon who misunderstood what RJ wrote in his notes. It is absolutely impossible for Taim to be something as simple as just good ol' Taim. What kind of storytelling is that, not having every single thing being part of some superadvanced plot that only a few chosen can see?

 

By the same people who think balefiring someone makes it impossible for the Dark One to bring back a person, despite RJ:s words to the contrary.

 

Not quite...

 

You forget, that in Fires of Heaven: Gateways, Moiraine says the strongest balefire she can manage will only remove a few seconds from the Pattern. Also, there is no mention of the angreal when Moiraine confronts Be'lal; her hands are free. Against Be'lal, she would not need the angreal in any case, it not being known the Forsaken do not stay dead if not balefired sufficiently hard.

 

A few seconds unaided. An angreal can make quite a difference. And you do not need to hold an angreal in your hands in order to use it.

And Moiraine is not an idiot. If she is going up against a forsaken, you can bet everything you own that she will use whatever advantage she can think of, including drawing strength from her angreal. What if her balefire had missed? What if there had been a BA hiding in the Shadows? If you go into a hostile situation, and do not know exactly what waits ahead, you prepare for the worst.

 

 

Either way, the quote does not mean what you claim. If the wording is inaccurate, of course the quote would mean very little. Assuming it is accurate, well RJ did usually know what he was saying when he was speaking. He does not say Be'lal could not be recycled in that quote. You want it to say that, so you read it so, but if you would look at it without such a motivation, you would see that if anything, it means the opposite, that it was possible Be'lal could be recycled. RJ is discussing the limitations to the Dark One's ability to recycle people. He is not discussing Be'lal in particular.

 

There is a word in English, 'context'. Look it up.

 

Yes, certainly a collective mishmash of hearsay and speculation should be tossed out the window when considering evidence. Furthermore, the books should and do stand by themselves, the external explanations being less relevant. These reports can be an important part in the lives of the people they affected in the time, but gossip makes for poor evidence. You know, Gawyn will think a person he could consider a friend had killed his mother and sister because a peddler said it was rumoured, but if someone is stupid there it is Gawyn for leaping to conclusions, the peddler is not stupid in any regard, the peddler is relaying what he knows.

 

Ah yes, word-by-word reports from interviews, Q&As etc are just gossip. Even worse, since so many people are involved, there is a huge conspiracy to fool all of us who were not there. Gasp!

 

Given the context, RJ said what came to the Dark One bringing back people, there was a difference between the balefiring of Rahvin and Be'lal. It is impossible to know RJ's thoughts further, since he did not wish to expand on what the situation with Be'lal was.

 

Be'lal and this other fellow are added as further examples of the situation he describes with Rahvin. If he had wanted to say that Be'lal was a different case, he would have added something after mentioning their names, something along the lines of "Be'lal [and] Mr No-name [on the other hand]", something like that.

[Graendals favourite]

Ah well.  I'll just be really happy when all this is over and it turns out Taim is just Taim.

Well I'd be perfectly happy if that was revealed to be so. And what people are saying, is it's possible Be'lal was transmigrated and that he were Taim. I don't think anyone is even dreaming they could prove it was so. Yet no reason to blind oneself to reasonable possibilities until the last books come out, it's not as if we'd already know, or could prove, everything that was coming. Some people really sound like they oppose any new ideas at all, any new interpretations, and you just can't get across to them.

 

Not quite...

Somehow I have seen so few people who reject Be'taim out of hand making the distinction.

A few seconds unaided. An angreal can make quite a difference. And you do not need to hold an angreal in your hands in order to use it.

And Moiraine is not an idiot. If she is going up against a forsaken, you can bet everything you own that she will use whatever advantage she can think of, including drawing strength from her angreal. What if her balefire had missed? What if there had been a BA hiding in the Shadows? If you go into a hostile situation, and do not know exactly what waits ahead, you prepare for the worst.

So you guess. Thusfar she has held the angreal when she has used it, as far as we know. You did hear her speaking about confronting Be'lal: she said, if she saw him first, and got close, she had a chance, and in any other eventuality she was lost anyway. Moiraine did not think the angreal would help her against Be'lal if that first shot failed, indeed it had not against Aginor.

 

You go in and maximise the probabiity of success of that one surprise shot you may get.

 

There is a word in English, 'context'. Look it up.

Which part of the sentence, "He doesn’t have access to all souls to be able to grab any soul?" do you not understand?

 

This is the context, the Dark One's ability to access souls.

 

Ah yes, word-by-word reports from interviews, Q&As etc are just gossip. Even worse, since so many people are involved, there is a huge conspiracy to fool all of us who were not there. Gasp!

It is all just chance. You should know this, reading WoT. Information gets distorted. And it does not take a conspiracy.

 

I have no reason to doubt that answer by RJ. It is rather vague, so that small distortions could change the meaning quite a lot, but if there were any distortion, then it really would be a useless bit of gossip only distracting people, since it would be wrong.

 

Be'lal and this other fellow are added as further examples of the situation he describes with Rahvin. If he had wanted to say that Be'lal was a different case, he would have added something after mentioning their names, something along the lines of "Be'lal [and] Mr No-name [on the other hand]", something like that.

Excuse me, but what? Do you mean he said, "Be'lal, Liah"? I cannot recall anyone else who was balefired. Were it Liah, surely the person recording that would have written it down. The person who wrote it down did not know what RJ said after Be'lal, else they would have written it down. I can accept that what they heard sounded like another name. Doesn't change the picture. Rahvin was balefired strongly, and Be'lal weakly, this later name would have died in a still different way. The ... marking is used to create this "on the other hand" effect.

[Majsju]

So you guess. Thusfar she has held the angreal when she has used it, as far as we know. You did hear her speaking about confronting Be'lal: she said, if she saw him first, and got close, she had a chance, and in any other eventuality she was lost anyway. Moiraine did not think the angreal would help her against Be'lal if that first shot failed, indeed it had not against Aginor.

 

You go in and maximise the probabiity of success of that one surprise shot you may get.

 

It is not a guess, it is a fact. We see one example of this when Rand battles Asmo in Rhuidean. The fact that it is possible to use an angreal without holding it is what helps Rand win this fight.

And what Moiraine thinks about her chances are quite irrelevant. If people packed their bags and went home every time they thought they did not stand a chance, the military history of the world would look radically different. Only an idiot would refuse to use something that could boost their chance of success, even if they did not actually believe they would make it. And if you think Moiraine is an idiot, you must be reading a different series of books then the rest of us.

 

Which part of the sentence, "He doesn’t have access to all souls to be able to grab any soul?" do you not understand?

 

This is the context, the Dark One's ability to access souls.

 

Examine Be'lals place in the context. His named is attached to Rahvins, as examples of people the DO can not reach because they were balefired. The wording would have to be different to make it appear like he meant Be'lals death being contrary to Rahvins. It would also be extremely unlike RJ to make a slip like that. Come on, the King of RAFO just throwing out a huge revelation just like that, without even having been asked? The same RJ who did not give out the identities of the actually recycled forsaken until it was impossible to miss in the books?

 

 

It is all just chance. You should know this, reading WoT. Information gets distorted. And it does not take a conspiracy.

 

Information works a lot different in the real world (you do know that WOT, real as it may seem at times, is just fiction, right?). For starters, the #1 problem with information in randland is that noone shares any information with anyone. Which is quite the contrary to the real world, with internet and all that jazz.

 

I have no reason to doubt that answer by RJ. It is rather vague, so that small distortions could change the meaning quite a lot, but if there were any distortion, then it really would be a useless bit of gossip only distracting people, since it would be wrong.

 

And the vagueness is something that should strongly hint at the authencity. Either Tamyrlin is the fastest writer in the world, or it is taken from an audio recording, since it is so word-by-word that it even includes RJs 'Uh'. Reports based on memory and loose notes tend to look quite a bit different, more coherrent since we tend to make them more coherrent in our minds to remember more.

 

Excuse me, but what? Do you mean he said, "Be'lal, Liah"? I cannot recall anyone else who was balefired. Were it Liah, surely the person recording that would have written it down. The person who wrote it down did not know what RJ said after Be'lal, else they would have written it down. I can accept that what they heard sounded like another name. Doesn't change the picture. Rahvin was balefired strongly, and Be'lal weakly, this later name would have died in a still different way. The ... marking is used to create this "on the other hand" effect.

 

Lawtin, Belvyn. Both balefired in ACOS, both so small as characters that extremely few people would bother to recall their names.

And there is no "... marking". It goes "Be'lal, someone else. New question."

If we started to invent what we wish RJ would have said to fill out his answers... ::)

[Graendals favourite]

It is not a guess, it is a fact. We see one example of this when Rand battles Asmo in Rhuidean. The fact that it is possible to use an angreal without holding it is what helps Rand win this fight.

And what Moiraine thinks about her chances are quite irrelevant. If people packed their bags and went home every time they thought they did not stand a chance, the military history of the world would look radically different. Only an idiot would refuse to use something that could boost their chance of success, even if they did not actually believe they would make it. And if you think Moiraine is an idiot, you must be reading a different series of books then the rest of us.

I mean that Moiraine using an angreal for balefire when she can do as much unaided is a guess. Moiraine frequently takes use of her angreal only when she needs it.

 

You also seem to think Moiraine had all the time in the world to prepare for confronting Be'lal. Like she was sitting in an armchair eating popcorn, until finally she roused herself and did her thing... You don't prepare for something you can do without preparation, there are other things to concern yourself with. It was with stealth Moiraine intended to enter the Heart, not using hammers of the power to attract the Black sisters. So she did not hold the power all the way to the Heart. When she got there, she must have had some time to choose her moment while Be'lal and Rand were concentrating on each other, yet the moment was dynamic, she had to act, and she did not need the angreal for what she intended.

 

I note however, even had Moiraine used the angreal, though we did not see that, aware as she was of its dangers, she would still likely have kept the balefire's strength at a minimum. There is no need for more, or so she would have thought, while more could do more damage to the Pattern. You see, as Moiraine sometimes says, it is not always so simple.

 

Examine Be'lals place in the context. His named is attached to Rahvins, as examples of people the DO can not reach because they were balefired. The wording would have to be different to make it appear like he meant Be'lals death being contrary to Rahvins. It would also be extremely unlike RJ to make a slip like that. Come on, the King of RAFO just throwing out a huge revelation just like that, without even having been asked? The same RJ who did not give out the identities of the actually recycled forsaken until it was impossible to miss in the books?

No, Be'lal's name is not attached to Rahvin's. There is a full stop between.

 

There are four full stops in that answer. First, "No, no, no." Completely contradicting that the Dark One has full access to do whatever he pleases. Second, he explains as a background, that the Dark One has influence everywhere in the world, but near Shayol Ghul is where he can most easily be perceived. The third sentence is somewhat muddled, but he goes on to say that where the Dark One has more influence, there he can better catch souls, and then he goes on to say that as with Rahvin's death, the same applies through time, that the Dark One does not have access beyond time. Fourth, "Be'lal, [names someone else]..." This means that Be'lal will lie somewhere in between, he did not die in Shayol Ghul, nor was she slain out of time, and the same will apply to this other fellow RJ would have named, to perhaps a different degree.

 

In other words, in the first sentence RJ says black is not white. In the second he says everywhere in the world there is some black, so no place in the current world is purely white, but that near Shayol Ghul is blackest of all. Thirdly he explains the Dark One can more easily do his thing when things are black, and not at all when things are purely white as in the distant past. Fourthly, he mentions examples of shades of grey.

 

Information works a lot different in the real world (you do know that WOT, real as it may seem at times, is just fiction, right?). For starters, the #1 problem with information in randland is that noone shares any information with anyone. Which is quite the contrary to the real world, with internet and all that jazz.

Yet sharing information does little good when people say whatever they feel like. The world wouldn't be the mess it was if people could just communicate with each other. Think of all the arguments on the internet, though common ground could almost always be found if people would understand what they and others said. The current world is no better than Randland for sharing information, they have no news agencies but neither do they have a plethora of sources shouting misinformation, intentionally or unintentionally.

 

And the vagueness is something that should strongly hint at the authencity. Either Tamyrlin is the fastest writer in the world, or it is taken from an audio recording, since it is so word-by-word that it even includes RJs 'Uh'. Reports based on memory and loose notes tend to look quite a bit different, more coherrent since we tend to make them more coherrent in our minds to remember more.

And this should imply we do not know what RJ said, no? Most sentences you can garble incoherent, or make them mean the opposite, easily enough. There is absolutely no default meaning we can assume to such quotes: either they mean what they say, or the information is simply lost to us. A pity, since this was such an isolated piece of information, but a piece of disinformation is not worth very much.

 

And there is no "... marking". It goes "Be'lal, someone else. New question."

If we started to invent what we wish RJ would have said to fill out his answers...

As to the ..., well there's a piece of garbling on your part, then. See, that's what your quote says on the first page. The new reader has no possibility of knowing who put the "..." in place.

 

Yet this still doesn't change the picture. We must assume Tamyrlin did not step on RJ's toes to stop him from continuing his answer, but that he stopped speaking on his own. It does not matter if Tamyrlin did not understand what RJ meant. Enough people do not seem to. RJ did not finish what he meant about Be'lal or these other people, so it is as good an interpretation as any that he meant the people, he was speaking to, to ponder on that.

Lawtin, Belvyn. Both balefired in ACOS, both so small as characters that extremely few people would bother to recall their names.

True, I had forgotten about them. Well, be it Liah, Lawtin or Belvyn, first of all they are three, and any of them would be a strange company to mention with Rahvin and Be'lal, were RJ making a list. Yet RJ's answer was not a list in such a way. The list he made was: Shayol Ghul, Rahvin, Be'lal, something else. Things that differ from each other.

[Majsju]

::)

 

Guess what, Taimandred killed Asmodean. RJ said so in an interview, people just forgot to report it.

 

That is the level of absurdity you are playing with.

 

 

[Graendals favourite]

Well, I wouldn't say that, but if you disagree, I'm happy to leave it at that...  ;D

[Majsju]

I would not exactly call it disagree, just as I would not call it disagree if I met someone who insited that the earth was flat...

[Graendals favourite]

Well, at least we share the sentiment, then. I think the flat out refusal to consider all reasonable option is absurd. The truth doesn't just fall from the heavens, one must work for it, too, apply oneself instead of reciting catechisms. Not everything in life comes as if on a plate.  ;)

[Mr Ares]

I think the flat out refusal to consider all reasonable option is absurd.

I don't think this qualifies as reasonable.

[Graendals favourite]

Yet there's a whole host of pro-Taimandred arguments that haven't been explained, but have only been buried because it has become clear Taim is not Demandred. Be'lal will explain all of them just as well as Demandred would have, otherwise the answers remain lacking. Not that we would have to know the answers, only we still do not know them. One of these questions is, how was Taim so obviously and thoroughly Forsaken-trained, thoroughly enough to adopt their way of speaking about Aiel and their attitudes to things, when he became a false Dragon at the time only Aginor and Batlhamel had just been freed? Did Ishamael train him in his dreams, which was the only place Ishamael ever appeared early on? Is that even possible? Plausible?

 

I was not a fan of Taimandred, mainly because I though Demandred would be somewhere else, but it was not only the wish to see Demandred somewhere that gained the theory popularity.

[Majsju]

Well, at least we share the sentiment, then. I think the flat out refusal to consider all reasonable option is absurd. The truth doesn't just fall from the heavens, one must work for it, too, apply oneself instead of reciting catechisms. Not everything in life comes as if on a plate.  ;)

 

If I refuse to consider something, it is because it is not reasonable. If it looks like a cat, sounds like a cat, moves like a cat, it is pretty stupid to claim it is a dog just because both have tails.

 

Did Ishamael train him in his dreams, which was the only place Ishamael ever appeared early on? Is that even possible? Plausible?

 

 

 

Ishamael was quite active in the physical world after Rands birth. He executes Jrna Mair for giving the search&destroy order, he interrogates the BA to see if they had any role to play in Sierin vahus death, and he Compells Fain. So it would have been very possible and plausible for him to find Taim, and train him.

If we look at what we know about Taim, he is a sparker, which means he did not have a choice to channel or not, his choice was to learn or die. He is in his late 20s, so at the time of Be'lals death, Taim would have channeled for almost 10 years, without going mad or start to rot. How likely is it that he would have managed such a thing without the aid of a forsaken?

 

 

Oh, and just for fun...

Well Frenzy, can’t blame some for trying :)

 

How about Balefire. Mr. Jordan, could you clear up a debate over the description of Balefire in your series? I’ve noticed when someone gets Balefired, you forgo the mention of the word death. When Be’lal dies, he becomes nothing more than shimmering motes and flecks. Rahvin dies by such a powerful stream, he doesn’t even fade for that heartbeat of a second. But nowhere, do I see the words death in the description.

 

Is that intentional? Should we assume when a character dies in the same description as their death, that they died by a weapon other than Balefire? (Such as Asmodean perhaps? ;) )

 

Thanks in advance,

Sodas / Xoduz

 

For Sodas, when you are balefired, you are dead, dead, dead.  It almost seemed redundant to say so.

 

How weird, no mention of Be'lal being a different case than Rahvin, despite the question putting focus on the difference in the description of their deaths. Despite this coming from RJs blog, after the Q&A at DCon where he supposedly said something everyone except you who were not even there managed to miss.

Very strange...

[Graendals favourite]

If I refuse to consider something, it is because it is not reasonable. If it looks like a cat, sounds like a cat, moves like a cat, it is pretty stupid to claim it is a dog just because both have tails.

We all have a right to choose what things we are prepared to consider. I sense a good number of "I told you so"'s lining up after a book or two, but if you are not going to even consider the matter, you will likely not be convinced even then...

 

Ishamael was quite active in the physical world after Rands birth. He executes Jrna Mair for giving the search&destroy order, he interrogates the BA to see if they had any role to play in Sierin vahus death, and he Compells Fain. So it would have been very possible and plausible for him to find Taim, and train him.

If we look at what we know about Taim, he is a sparker, which means he did not have a choice to channel or not, his choice was to learn or die. He is in his late 20s, so at the time of Be'lals death, Taim would have channeled for almost 10 years, without going mad or start to rot. How likely is it that he would have managed such a thing without the aid of a forsaken?

By all accounts, Ishamael only ever appeared in dreams then. It is mentioned Ishamael was active in the world, but through dreams. Yes, it would still have possible for him to train Taim I guess, but I do think it strains credulity. At the time of the Eye of the World, Ishamael could only appear in the real world as something flickering, as outside Shadar Logoth. In the later books he could do that better.

 

I've thought men don't always spark even so early, as is mentioned in the BWB that women generally spark earlier, sometimes much earlier. Time could have been 25 when he sparked, that would I think not be unusual. (Now here I don't have a reference, I will look up later for an answer on this one.) Anyway, Taim's age of late 20's have given him the time to learn something of the power on his own, enough to blow up people or the like. He may, as men are wont, have been disinclined to channel at all, so learning the same kind of control as Nynaeve had learned would have meant he would have been channelling seldom. Perhaps later he discovered what he did was channelling, and then thought use this to make something of himself.

 

 

Besides which, it occurs to me to mention, it matters not a whit if Taim was as mad as Bashere's uncle, or whomever it was who had those trees buried, he could still have succeeded as he did as a false Dragon. Be'lal was not mad, and madness is in the mind, not the body.

How weird, no mention of Be'lal being a different case than Rahvin, despite the question putting focus on the difference in the description of their deaths. Despite this coming from RJs blog, after the Q&A at DCon where he supposedly said something everyone except you who were not even there managed to miss.

Very strange...

Of course it is not strange. Both Rahvin and Be'lal died of balefire. They did die. The Forsaken who have been transmigrated have all died. This is how we know Lanfear died. Ishamael died. Aginor, Balthamel, Sammael, all are dead, dead, dead. The Darkhounds Rand cut with a knife did not die, they flowed back together.

 

The question was whether Be'lal died though it was not specifically mentioned he did. The same as Asmodean died, instead of Moridin taking him. The question does not speak about transmigration at all.

[Majsju]

 

By all accounts, Ishamael only ever appeared in dreams then. It is mentioned Ishamael was active in the world, but through dreams. Yes, it would still have possible for him to train Taim I guess, but I do think it strains credulity. At the time of the Eye of the World, Ishamael could only appear in the real world as something flickering, as outside Shadar Logoth. In the later books he could do that better.

 

Which explains why Jarna was found inside an activated ter'angreal, instead of dead in her bed. Which explains why Fain was brought to Shayol Ghul to be fixed...Oh wait...

The prologue to the very first book in the series show us how Ishamael is not completely imprisoned, but actually able to, wait for it...Walk around in the real world! We later have him crating the BA, running the Trolloc wars, and messing with Hawkwing. And yet, now when the prison have started to weaken, he is supposed to all of a sudden be incapable of physically entering the world?

I think you might be confusing Ishamael with Voldemort, who did not possess a physical body in the beginning of that serie.

 

I've thought men don't always spark even so early, as is mentioned in the BWB that women generally spark earlier, sometimes much earlier. Time could have been 25 when he sparked, that would I think not be unusual. (Now here I don't have a reference, I will look up later for an answer on this one.) Anyway, Taim's age of late 20's have given him the time to learn something of the power on his own, enough to blow up people or the like. He may, as men are wont, have been disinclined to channel at all, so learning the same kind of control as Nynaeve had learned would have meant he would have been channelling seldom. Perhaps later he discovered what he did was channelling, and then thought use this to make something of himself.

 

Have fun looking for that reference. Is that also something RJ said at a Q&A where everyone present managed to forget about it?

 

 

Besides which, it occurs to me to mention, it matters not a whit if Taim was as mad as Bashere's uncle, or whomever it was who had those trees buried, he could still have succeeded as he did as a false Dragon. Be'lal was not mad, and madness is in the mind, not the body.

 

How convenient, Taim would get a different kind of madness than every other example we have heard of (The general Bashere talks about was not a channeler). Screw what the books say if they have the insolence to not support your pet "theor", eh.

 

Of course it is not strange. Both Rahvin and Be'lal died of balefire. They did die. The Forsaken who have been transmigrated have all died. This is how we know Lanfear died. Ishamael died. Aginor, Balthamel, Sammael, all are dead, dead, dead. The Darkhounds Rand cut with a knife did not die, they flowed back together.

 

The question was whether Be'lal died though it was not specifically mentioned he did. The same as Asmodean died, instead of Moridin taking him. The question does not speak about transmigration at all.

 

Point is, a couple of weeks after DCon, where he supposedly gave this huge revelation to a selected few, who were to stupid to pick it up, RJ is provided with an opportunity to drop the same bomb again, at a forum where hopefully someone might pick it up. But noooo.

Hmmm, could it be because he never made any such huge revelation in the first place, perhaps?

[Graendals favourite]

Look, this hasn't become my pet theory just because I think it may be true. I hold that Be'lal being recycled is possible, and that there is a fair chance Taim is Be'lal recycled, but I am going to make zero effort to prove is since I do not think it is possible. If we'd had a pov by Taim, I might be willing, but without it, there is no possibility of saying that something is definitely the case.

Which explains why Jarna was found inside an activated ter'angreal, instead of dead in her bed. Which explains why Fain was brought to Shayol Ghul to be fixed...Oh wait...

The prologue to the very first book in the series show us how Ishamael is not completely imprisoned, but actually able to, wait for it...Walk around in the real world! We later have him crating the BA, running the Trolloc wars, and messing with Hawkwing. And yet, now when the prison have started to weaken, he is supposed to all of a sudden be incapable of physically entering the world?

I think you might be confusing Ishamael with Voldemort, who did not possess a physical body in the beginning of that serie.

Now, on Ishamael, you are right, at certain times he has been physically in the world. At certain times he has been held. You notice however, that Ishamael does not age, yet he retains his body. His body develops a mouth and eyes with caverns into an endless fire, yet he walks among men. However, I do not think anyone can claim to know what Ishamael could do and when.

 

I have not known it was Ishamael who brought Fain to Shayol Ghul, though I suppose that would have been possible. I thought it was in whatever way those people in the beginning of The Great Hunt were taken there.

 

I remember the name from the movie, but I have never read a word of HP, if that is where Voldemort is, so I have no clue what you mean with the person you mention.

 

Have fun looking for that reference. Is that also something RJ said at a Q&A where everyone present managed to forget about it?

Well, I did comment on that more because it is something I think is true, only unless I am challenged especially on it, I will not bother to search. You notice, I do not put such a great stock on Q&A answers, and I do not know if a reliable age range for men to spark is mentioned in the books. I only know the BWB states it is generally later for men, and sometimes much later.

 

Edit, Ok, I bothered a little. According to the encyclopadia: Men with the spark inborn develop the ability later than women, often after they are twenty. (LoC,Ch28)

 

So it is rather a stretch to make that 25. Yet, the madnessess do vary, and if no one reached the rotting stage, we would not know of it. For example, according to same source, Owyn controlled his channelling for three years before he was gentled. I recall Thom mentioning something about odd behaviour, yet odd behaviour does not immediately make someone unable to function.

How convenient, Taim would get a different kind of madness than every other example we have heard of (The general Bashere talks about was not a channeler). Screw what the books say if they have the insolence to not support your pet "theor", eh.

Exactly how many madnesses have you seen described in the books. I have understood everyone's madness is different, and there is no way to tell who will last and how long. It would be to be expected that a false Dragon who could channel would generally be one who had learned a rough control of the Power.

Point is, a couple of weeks after DCon, where he supposedly gave this huge revelation to a selected few, who were to stupid to pick it up, RJ is provided with an opportunity to drop the same bomb again, at a forum where hopefully someone might pick it up. But noooo.

Hmmm, could it be because he never made any such huge revelation in the first place, perhaps?

You exaggerate the effect of the quote. And think your own explanation of RJ's motives would be the only correct. Had RJ intended to mention the possibility Be'lal could return, he might have done so simply to test the air, to see if there is enough Foreshadowing for people to for example accept Taim as Be'lal. Yet notice, none of what RJ said was an indication that Be'lal could come back. He did not reveal whether it was so in his answer. He just did not deny the possibility, either. It is not as if RJ would need to avoid mentioning everything that might have something to do with something controversial.

 

 

But I have zero interest in trying to prove Be'lal is Taim, since I do not think it can be done. Perhaps I am wrong, but I would have to notice something new in a reread, however for the moment I will not attempt to prove such a thing. I am content to let The Gathering Storm come with the possibility remaining the most likely one, but still open.

 

[Majsju]

Look, this hasn't become my pet theory just because I think it may be true. I hold that Be'lal being recycled is possible, and that there is a fair chance Taim is Be'lal recycled, but I am going to make zero effort to prove is since I do not think it is possible. If we'd had a pov by Taim, I might be willing, but without it, there is no possibility of saying that something is definitely the case.

At least you admit there is no evidence for your little "theory", always a start...

 

Now, on Ishamael, you are right, at certain times he has been physically in the world. At certain times he has been held. You notice however, that Ishamael does not age, yet he retains his body. His body develops a mouth and eyes with caverns into an endless fire, yet he walks among men. However, I do not think anyone can claim to know what Ishamael could do and when.

 

Anyone who have read and understood the books can claim to know that Ishy was only partially sealed, and that he a couple of years after Rand birth was in one of his free periods. Anyone who have read and understood RJs answers to questions on the matter can claim to know that in the periods when Ishy was sealed, it would have been impossible for him to play around in peoples dreams, because the forsaken, while imprisoned did not dream.

 

I have not known it was Ishamael who brought Fain to Shayol Ghul, though I suppose that would have been possible. I thought it was in whatever way those people in the beginning of The Great Hunt were taken there.

 

Time for someone to read TEOTW...

 

 

Well, I did comment on that more because it is something I think is true, only unless I am challenged especially on it, I will not bother to search. You notice, I do not put such a great stock on Q&A answers, and I do not know if a reliable age range for men to spark is mentioned in the books. I only know the BWB states it is generally later for men, and sometimes much later.

 

Edit, Ok, I bothered a little. According to the encyclopadia: Men with the spark inborn develop the ability later than women, often after they are twenty. (LoC,Ch28)

 

There is a huge difference between 'After 20' and '25'.

 

So it is rather a stretch to make that 25. Yet, the madnessess do vary, and if no one reached the rotting stage, we would not know of it. For example, according to same source, Owyn controlled his channelling for three years before he was gentled. I recall Thom mentioning something about odd behaviour, yet odd behaviour does not immediately make someone unable to function.

 

Funny difference between Owyn the farmer and Taim - Owyn lived in the middle of nowhere, trying to avoid channeling. Taim led an army, tried to conquer the world, and had no problems channeling whenever he wanted to. He has channeled enough to have started Slowing when he reaches Caemlyn.

Now, what was it again that brought on the madness and the rottening...Oh right, channeling.

 

Exactly how many madnesses have you seen described in the books. I have understood everyone's madness is different, and there is no way to tell who will last and how long. It would be to be expected that a false Dragon who could channel would generally be one who had learned a rough control of the Power.

 

Heard of a little incident known as the Breaking?

 

 

You exaggerate the effect of the quote. And think your own explanation of RJ's motives would be the only correct. Had RJ intended to mention the possibility Be'lal could return, he might have done so simply to test the air, to see if there is enough Foreshadowing for people to for example accept Taim as Be'lal. Yet notice, none of what RJ said was an indication that Be'lal could come back. He did not reveal whether it was so in his answer. He just did not deny the possibility, either. It is not as if RJ would need to avoid mentioning everything that might have something to do with something controversial.

 

So now you claim that RJ did not say any of the things you claimed he did say, and yet he still held the door open for Be'lal to come back?

 

::)

 

 

But I have zero interest in trying to prove Be'lal is Taim, since I do not think it can be done. Perhaps I am wrong, but I would have to notice something new in a reread, however for the moment I will not attempt to prove such a thing. I am content to let The Gathering Storm come with the possibility remaining the most likely one, but still open.

 

Oh, pleaser attempt to prove it, I can always use a good laugh.

And while you are on, prove that SH is a girl, you would have a beter chance at managing that.

[Elgee]

Look, this hasn't become my pet theory just because I think it may be true. I hold that Be'lal being recycled is possible, and that there is a fair chance Taim is Be'lal recycled, but I am going to make zero effort to prove is since I do not think it is possible. If we'd had a pov by Taim, I might be willing, but without it, there is no possibility of saying that something is definitely the case.

 

*blinks* ... do you perhaps mean that it is your pet WISH, rather than theory? Because a theory is something you believe is possible.

 

I'm a little confused, here: You hold that Be'lal being recycled is possible, but you're not going to make any effort to prove it, because you don't think it's possible?  ??? Do you mean you don't think that him being recycled as Taim is possible?