Who Forasaken are masquerading as. Level 11 Spoilers

[Graendals favourite]

I will just mention here in passing an interesting passage I came across today in Lord of Chaos. It is in the prologue The First Message, in Aginor's pov. There has been a lack of direct implication for Be'lal still being alive after being killed, well, here is some. It does not outright say Be'lal is alive, but it is nevertheless strange that it has remained unnoticed, as it would certainly do as foreshadowing. It is in the scene where Shaidar Haran has just released Balthamel, who is unhappy about her voluptuous woman's body, from his grip on his throat, and is reprimanding both for lack of gratitude at a new body. It goes:

"Do you not feel gratitude?" the Myrddraal said. "You were dead, and are alive. Think of Rahvin, whose soul is beyond saving, beyond time. You have a chance to serve the Great Lord again, and absolve yourselves of your errors."

There, it is directly implied that Rahvin is the only one who suffered such a fate, while if the others who had died were in a predicament, it was not the same. Aginor did not know of Rahvin's death, and wondered what had happened that he had died: obviously he did not know what had been going on in the world after his death. Should Be'lal have shared Rahvin's fate, there is no reason for Shaidar Haran to only mention Rahvin, certainly not when he is telling Aginor and Balthamel how lucky they are.

[Mcpatrick]

Be'lal was killed by balefire. He isn't coming back.

[Graendals favourite]

And how do you come to the conclusion that one follows from the other?

[Bob T Dwarf]

SH not mentioning Bel'al means nothing.  He also didn't mention Asmodean, who was another that the DO couldn't transmigrate.

 

From the FAQ on wotmania:

Q64 – Part 2: [The DO] doesn’t have access to all souls to be able to grab any soul?

 

RJ: No, no, no. Because of the Bore and the fact that the Bore is best perceived … the Bore doesn’t really exist in Shayol Ghul, the Bore exists everywhere, its simply in Shayol Ghul where it can be perceived most easily. By the same token he has greater access to people at Shayol Ghul than he does elsewhere, or did. And uh, that’s, when you know, Rahvin died, Rahvin is balefired out of time, slain out of time, cannot be reached, gone. Be’lal, (names someone else) …

[Graendals favourite]

I wouldn't care to rehash an old argument, but that quote means nothing, really, on Be'lal. If anything, it is the equivalent of what Shaidar Haran said. RJ did not mention Asmodean either. You notice the period between him speaking about Rahvin and Be'lal. He is saying something different about Be'lal, you must take what you highlight in the context of the answer as a whole. The answer is not a list about things which prevent recycling, if it is a list at all it is a list of things which affect his ability to recycle people, but obviously even so it is not a full list of everything, as implied by the No no no.

[Asgard Thorin]

I wouldn't care to rehash an old argument, but that quote means nothing, really, on Be'lal. If anything, it is the equivalent of what Shaidar Haran said. RJ did not mention Asmodean either. You notice the period between him speaking about Rahvin and Be'lal. He is saying something different about Be'lal, you must take what you highlight in the context of the answer as a whole. The answer is not a list about things which prevent recycling, if it is a list at all it is a list of things which affect his ability to recycle people, but obviously even so it is not a full list of everything, as implied by the No no no.

 

Well said, well said. It's nice to see someone not just state "Well, it isn't so there!" with no more proof that Be'lal isn't Taim than not wanting Be'lal to be Taim. That's half the arguing in this thread.

[Mr Ares]

Well said, well said. It's nice to see someone not just state "Well, it isn't so there!" with no more proof that Be'lal isn't Taim than not wanting Be'lal to be Taim. That's half the arguing in this thread.

And the other half is stating "Well, it is so, so there!" with no more proof than that they want Be'lal to be Taim.

[The Doctor]

Doesn't the DO say he can't recycle victims of balefire? didn't Bel'al get balefired?

[elmis]

Is there anyone else than me that think the original plan was to have Taim = Demandred, but when everybody posted that it was just so obvious ect, RJ switched it up (and thus has a small problem explaining some of the clues, like so-called Aiel, ect)?

[Majsju]

RJ has flat out denied that he has changed anything becuse the fanbase starts "suspecting" something. He has also said that he was surprised that so many thought they could spot taimandred, and if he had left clues with such plans, he would hardly be surprised.

[lt;(^-^)gt;]

Majsju, would you link to the quote where RJ says he was surprised about Taimandred please?

[Luckers]

If it helps at all I also remember RJ saying that. I have a feeling it was in the blog, but I'm not sure.

[Majsju]

RJ expressing surprise at the taimandred gang is in one of the D*Con interviews. Him denying having changed anything because of the fanbase is from the blog.

So, now you know where to look. I need to start training you people in finding things for yourselves, and not just ask for links and quotes all the time. ;D

[lt;(^-^)gt;]

Oh please.  "All the time" indeed.

 

I don't think I would have been able to find it without your hint though, so thanks:

http://theoryland.yuku.com/reply/201506/t/Second-Q-amp-A-Saturday.html#reply-201506

It's the 8th quote in Callandor's post:

Emma: Was Taimandred a deliberate ruse to lead your readers astray, or were you surprised (by the all of the theories connecting Taim to Demandred)?

 

Jordan: I was surprised but I wasn't going to disabuse you of it for a while, I like to watch you squirm.

 

I guess that's another point for people who don't think Taim is Be'lal... :(

[Graendals favourite]

Not really, if he hadn't thought they might think of Demandred, well that could be because he knew Demandred was elsewhere and thought of other things on Taim...

[Mr Ares]

I need to start training you people in finding things for yourselves, and not just ask for links and quotes all the time. ;D

It's terrible when people expect you to back up the things you say, isn't it?

[Luckers]

It's terrible when people expect you to back up the things you say, isn't it?

 

It is a little bit because people come to expect you to do the work for them. We have a list of online resources.

 

And Ares, I've seen you shut people down for asking you for an explanation--bit of pot-kettle moment, maybe?

[Asgard Thorin]

It's terrible when people expect you to back up the things you say, isn't it?

 

It is a little bit because people come to expect you to do the work for them. We have a list of online resources.

 

 

 

You are a bit correct when you say that we often ask you to do research. In my case, foremost I ask because I don't have mine own internet connection. Most of you will believe this less than mine idea of Be'lTaim, but it has been literally a month since I've been on-line. No jive, Honest injun, Scout's honor. I have to use a library connection, which is under a time limit.

Secondly, navigating links is something that I find frustrating; my last internet connection was dial-up(analog) and going to another page, with all its extraneous links, adds, what-not, et al was something I usually didn't have time for, (lots of incoming calls, one phone line). Plus, it was down-right annoying; I don't like the way most web-sites are slathered with links or adds. Basically, I'm a very rusty navigator.

I apologize for all the times I've asked for someone else to look something up, and I thank those that have. And I still think Be'lTaim is a valid possibility. Let the debate go on.

[Graendals favourite]

These may be mentioned before in this thread, but there are three things pertaining to Taim that stood out to me in the latter part of Lord of Chaos.

 

First, the stabbing of Demira. She was stabbed by people pretending to be Aiel, this is clear: they spoke of the Aes Sedai as 'witches', they did not look like Aiel under their clothes, and Melaine did not know of Aiel watching the Crown of Roses, or them following the Aes Sedai at least. To go quickly to the point, it would have suited Taim very well to distance Rand from Aes Sedai Rand had said might support him. Taim does not want Rand to have power of his own. Furthermore, in order to get Demira into the warren of narrow alleys, a bit of Compulsion would have been even fairly likely: it was clear the attackers did not merely chance to encounter Demira there in those alleys, how could they, their number as false Aiel could not be limitless, and since a man had been sent to warn the other Aes Sedai, it was evident Demira was to be attacked exactly then, missing her all the Aes Sedai would be much more careful. Taim on the other hand had reason for Demira not to die, as Rand had threatened to return the favour, he would not want to test Rand in this since he still needed Rand himself. Be'lal will know what Aiel garb looks like, since they in general wore their work-clothes in the Age of Legends. It is relevant, that the strategem worked.

 

Second, Rand's visit to the Black Tower. It is clear from Lews Therin's observations, though Rand is too inexperienced to see it, that all the Asha'man are to obey Taim, and not Rand. Taim's authority is to be that of the M'Hael, not something given to him by Rand. Taim is clearly building his own powerbase that is to be completely separate from Rand, so it is clear anything done for Rand is done as Taim's favour to him. Lews Therin says: "I will kill him, and then them. They must serve him. It is plain; they must serve him." The Asha'man do not react to what Rand tells them, because they have in Taim's harsh way been taught not to ever question or comment on his orders. Again, Taim has succeeded, Rand does not even suspect him.

 

Third, Taim's last slip of the tongue: At Dumai's Wells, Taim says, and this is very like Be'lal who never sees people as more than pieces on a board: My Lord Dragon, I would say there are still several hundred Shaido women out there, some not insignificant it seems. And that is not to mention some thousands of Shaido with spears. Unless you truly want to find out whether you are immortal, I suggest waiting a few hours until we know this place well enough to make gateways with some certainty where they will come out, then leaving. There are casualties in battle. I lost several soldiers today, nine men who will be harder to replace than any number of renegade Aiel. Whoever dies out there, dies for the Dragon Reborn.

 

Taim clearly does not wish to waste of his soldiers in a fight he has no interests in, and that is understandable, though Be'lal-like. Less relevant is that he truly thinks of them as his Aiel, even here when he tries to convince Rand of something, and more relevant is his beyond-scholarlike knowledge of Aiel history to know the Aiel following Rand are renegades: indeed they are, for abandoning the Way of the Leaf, however it is beyond credible any Saldaean, whatever their schooling, could know it so well they believed it. No-one schooling Taim into his place near Rand would have the slightest need to tutor him on the intricacies of Aiel history, rather the opposite. This is the kind of slip a person makes when he knows much more than he lets on, and he has not particular reason to guard his tongue.

 

These things cannot be ignored just because positive evidence for Taim being Be'lal recycled is missing. Clearly even in Lord of Chaoes, Taim is more than he seems.

 

Oh, and by the way, Logain had avoided madness for some eight years before he was captured, as he told Egwene, well naturally a false Dragon is someone who has had time to learn enough of the power to use it to his advantage, someone who has gotten over being able to channel, and not gone too made to achieve anything.

[Hybrid]

First, I agree that the stabbing of Demira was likely Taim's orders.  But I don't see it as any indication of Taim not being just Taim.  In fact, the "Aiel" speaking of "witches" is rather careless if Taim is really the Netweaver himself.  As is the choice of men who look nothing like Aiel in their eye color.  If the Aes Sedai had known more about Aiel, they could have realized the truth.

 

Second, I don't see Taim's power grabbing as evidence of him being anything other than himself either.

 

Third, Taim's last slip of the tongue: At Dumai's Wells, Taim says, and this is very like Be'lal who never sees people as more than pieces on a board: My Lord Dragon, I would say there are still several hundred Shaido women out there, some not insignificant it seems. And that is not to mention some thousands of Shaido with spears. Unless you truly want to find out whether you are immortal, I suggest waiting a few hours until we know this place well enough to make gateways with some certainty where they will come out, then leaving. There are casualties in battle. I lost several soldiers today, nine men who will be harder to replace than any number of renegade Aiel. Whoever dies out there, dies for the Dragon Reborn.

I disagree with your interpretation of this quote.  What Taim is saying is that he cannot afford to trade Asha'man lives for Aiel lives, since the Asha'man are vastly outnumbered and require significant training (not to mention that men who can channel are somewhat rare).  The way I read it, the "renegade Aiel" are the Shaido, not the Aiel following Rand.  The Shaido fit the definition of renegade far better regardless of whether Taim knows who the Aiel once were. 

 

 

In short, there is no reason to suspect Mazrim Taim is anything but Mazrim Taim.  Possibly (even probably) trained by Ishamael, but still Mazrim Taim.  There does not have to be a Forsaken masquerading as every significant enemy in the series. 

 

Bel'al = Taim as a valid possibility?  Only by stretching the definition of valid.  That Moiraine channeled just enough balefire to kill Bel'al but not enough that the Dark One wasn't able to bring him back... that's too great of an assumption.

[Tyrell]

What happened to RAW's posts in this thread? I've seen a few people quote him but the posts aren't in evidence. Kinda makes some parts of the thread hard to follow ;)

[Graendals favourite]

First, I agree that the stabbing of Demira was likely Taim's orders.  But I don't see it as any indication of Taim not being just Taim.  In fact, the "Aiel" speaking of "witches" is rather careless if Taim is really the Netweaver himself.  As is the choice of men who look nothing like Aiel in their eye color.  If the Aes Sedai had known more about Aiel, they could have realized the truth.

However, it was not Taim stabbing Demira, but someone at his orders. To many people in Randland, Aes Sedai equal witches, though not to the Forsaken or the Aiel.

 

Also, the Aes Sedai, any more than anyone else in Randland, do not know much about the Aiel. Neither were the 'Aiel' displayed so to the Aes Sedai that they would study them, in particular. Someone who tries to counter every very unlikely possibility will never get anything done.

 

I disagree with your interpretation of this quote.  What Taim is saying is that he cannot afford to trade Asha'man lives for Aiel lives, since the Asha'man are vastly outnumbered and require significant training (not to mention that men who can channel are somewhat rare).  The way I read it, the "renegade Aiel" are the Shaido, not the Aiel following Rand.  The Shaido fit the definition of renegade far better regardless of whether Taim knows who the Aiel once were.

You may disagree, but my interpretation is correct. I cannot quote the whole chapter. What Taim is referring to is Rand's Aiel, the people who are outside the dome and being slaughtered. One does not try to replace one's enemies, who are the Shaido. Also, the following events show that the Asha'man are fully capable of defeating the Shaido, they do not need more training for that. You must read the whole of Rand's last pov in the chapter "Dumai's Wells". It is true, the Asha'man are far more valuable to Taim than any 'so-called' spear-wielding Aiel.

 

A further point is that despite Taim's knowledge of the Aiel, he does not distinguish the Wise Ones as more as Aiel women against spear-wielding Aiel.

 

Your later conclusions are clearly jumping to conclusions, your arguments do not stand at all. You hope Taim is not Be'lal, who actually would be the second Forsaken masquerading we don't know from the start, aside from Aginor.

 

[Asgard Thorin]

First, I agree that the stabbing of Demira was likely Taim's orders.  But I don't see it as any indication of Taim not being just Taim.  In fact, the "Aiel" speaking of "witches" is rather careless if Taim is really the Netweaver himself.  As is the choice of men who look nothing like Aiel in their eye color.  If the Aes Sedai had known more about Aiel, they could have realized the truth.

However, it was not Taim stabbing Demira, but someone at his orders. To many people in Randland, Aes Sedai equal witches, though not to the Forsaken or the Aiel.

 

Also, the Aes Sedai, any more than anyone else in Randland, do not know much about the Aiel. Neither were the 'Aiel' displayed so to the Aes Sedai that they would study them, in particular. Someone who tries to counter every very unlikely possibility will never get anything done.

 

I disagree with your interpretation of this quote.  What Taim is saying is that he cannot afford to trade Asha'man lives for Aiel lives, since the Asha'man are vastly outnumbered and require significant training (not to mention that men who can channel are somewhat rare).  The way I read it, the "renegade Aiel" are the Shaido, not the Aiel following Rand.  The Shaido fit the definition of renegade far better regardless of whether Taim knows who the Aiel once were.

You may disagree, but my interpretation is correct. I cannot quote the whole chapter. What Taim is referring to is Rand's Aiel, the people who are outside the dome and being slaughtered. One does not try to replace one's enemies, who are the Shaido. Also, the following events show that the Asha'man are fully capable of defeating the Shaido, they do not need more training for that. You must read the whole of Rand's last pov in the chapter "Dumai's Wells". It is true, the Asha'man are far more valuable to Taim than any 'so-called' spear-wielding Aiel.

 

A further point is that despite Taim's knowledge of the Aiel, he does not distinguish the Wise Ones as more as Aiel women against spear-wielding Aiel.

 

Your later conclusions are clearly jumping to conclusions, your arguments do not stand at all. You hope Taim is not Be'lal, who actually would be the second Forsaken masquerading we don't know from the start, aside from Aginor.

 

 

I also think Taim is refering to the good-guy Aiel when he says that. To me, that is the only way that passage makes sense. Thanks for re-mentioning "so-called" Aiel. No satisfactory counter-argument to that fact had yet been made. To me.

[Mr Ares]

Thanks for re-mentioning "so-called" Aiel. No satisfactory counter-argument to that fact had yet been made.

Trained by a Chosen.

[Asgard Thorin]

Wanted to keep talking 'bout this, and since it's such a long thread people are less likely to stumble over spoilers this Gulf-of-Mexico deep. If the site bosses'll let us let's talk about the Forsaken possibilities of Level 12...while occasionally revisiting the concept of Belted Taimoridin