Who Forasaken are masquerading as. Level 11 Spoilers

[The Doctor]

How could anyone be Taim since he was around when they were all locked up??  Oh I see, someone may have knocked him off and taken his place, clever.  I think Taim's a regular DF, that got trained by Ishy before the events of tEotW.

[Mr Ares]

Yet there's a whole host of pro-Taimandred arguments that haven't been explained, but have only been buried because it has become clear Taim is not Demandred.

And nothing that indicates Be'lal, just that Taim is odd.

I was not a fan of Taimandred, mainly because I though Demandred would be somewhere else, but it was not only the wish to see Demandred somewhere that gained the theory popularity.

No, there were similarities, such as neither smiling, and LTT always ranting about Demandred around him. With Be'lal we have...Taim looking down on swords. When Be'lal didn't. Nothing to link them in six books. And Be'lal was balefired.

[Graendals favourite]

At least you admit there is no evidence for your little "theory", always a start...

Have you read a word of what anyone has written in this thread? This is what most people have been trying to tell you. Just because a thing is possible does not make it so. People are arguing that this is something that is possible. They are not arguing that it is so. How hard can that be to comprehend?

 

It is impossible to speak about anything more complicated if this cannot be understood. Just because an apple can fall, doesn't mean one fell.

 

Anyone who have read and understood the books can claim to know that Ishy was only partially sealed, and that he a couple of years after Rand birth was in one of his free periods. Anyone who have read and understood RJs answers to questions on the matter can claim to know that in the periods when Ishy was sealed, it would have been impossible for him to play around in peoples dreams, because the forsaken, while imprisoned did not dream.

That much is true, yes, but practically speaking, what does it mean Ishamael was partially free? Certainly Ishamael was not free in the same way the other Forsaken are free at the moment. Yet, you can assume Ishamael was completely free to do whatever he wished at any given time, and I will not argue against this possibility, but do not forget it is an assumption.

 

Time for someone to read TEOTW...

And that someone is you... It is said in The Eye of the World that Fain was taken to Shayol Ghul, and there he met Ba'alzamon. There is no mention that Ba'alzamon should have taken him there, indeed that he met him there outright implies the contrary.

 

There is a huge difference between 'After 20' and '25'.

Not such a huge stretch, yet as I said, I too believe making it 25 would be stretching things.

 

Funny difference between Owyn the farmer and Taim - Owyn lived in the middle of nowhere, trying to avoid channeling. Taim led an army, tried to conquer the world, and had no problems channeling whenever he wanted to. He has channeled enough to have started Slowing when he reaches Caemlyn.

Now, what was it again that brought on the madness and the rottening...Oh right, channeling.

If that is what you want to believe. I have no interest in arguing this. You want to hold your eyes closed until a Taren Ferry man comes to slit your throat, it is no concern of mine.

 

You claim it is possible for a male sparker to live relatively sanely and without rotting near ten years after sparking. That is quite a claim, yet I will not argue you further. I just say, perhaps after a few more years Owyn would have thought about using his channelling to his advantage instead of trying to hide the fact, had he not been caught.

 

Heard of a little incident known as the Breaking?

Yes, we know men invariably go mad. Yet not all men went man instantly, and some wilders would inevitably last longer. Yet this is not a point I am interested in arguing. You can think what you want.

 

So now you claim that RJ did not say any of the things you claimed he did say, and yet he still held the door open for Be'lal to come back?

You do not seem to understand half of what I say. I said no such thing. There is a function to the conditional statement if you have heard of such a thing.

 

Oh, pleaser attempt to prove it, I can always use a good laugh.

And while you are on, prove that SH is a girl, you would have a beter chance at managing that.

Shaidar Haran is a girl? I will just leave discussing this with you, and let you think that. No more replies to you here from me.

 

*blinks* ... do you perhaps mean that it is your pet WISH, rather than theory? Because a theory is something you believe is possible.

 

I'm a little confused, here: You hold that Be'lal being recycled is possible, but you're not going to make any effort to prove it, because you don't think it's possible?  Huh Do you mean you don't think that him being recycled as Taim is possible?

It is not my pet anything, it is something I happen to be discussing at the moment. I will not continue to do so, but will move on to different subjects. I do not wish it in particular, that Taim is Be'lal, it is something I am considering as thing that might be true, since Taim could be Be'lal. Do I wish that the moon orbits the earth? No, but it is true and I accept it as such. Do I wish that there is life in a nearby solar system? Not in particular, but I accept the possibility.

 

I don't think that it is possible to prove that Be'lal is Taim. I think it is clear that the possibility for that exists. It is an option, but not the only one. My opinion is that it is a likely possibility, but that is only opinion. Some people I have discussed this in the past seem to intentionally muddle this discussion, to make it seem I or others are arguing the possibility would be the only one, for quite unknown motives, though I suspect intellectual laziness more than anything else.

 

How could anyone be Taim since he was around when they were all locked up??  Oh I see, someone may have knocked him off and taken his place, clever.  I think Taim's a regular DF, that got trained by Ishy before the events of tEotW.

Simple recycling.

 

And nothing that indicates Be'lal, just that Taim is odd.

Not that people have been checking if there are similarities, either.

 

No, there were similarities, such as neither smiling, and LTT always ranting about Demandred around him. With Be'lal we have...Taim looking down on swords. When Be'lal didn't. Nothing to link them in six books. And Be'lal was balefired.

Well, this is exactly the argument I am not going to attempt, so I won't. My time is more valuable than an argument that doesn't go anywhere, as should everyone's, there is a life to live.

 

 

So to anyone who wants to respond, I concede all points, but if they think they determine what is possible in life, that is unwise of them on a personal level.

 

[lt;(^-^)gt;]

No, no, no. Because of the Bore and the fact that the Bore is best perceived...the Bore doesn't really exist in Shayol Ghul, the Bore exists everywhere, its simply in Shayol Ghul where it can be perceived most easily. By the same token he has greater access to people at Shayol Ghul than he does elsewhere, or did. And uh, that's, when you know, Rahvin died, Rahvin is balefired out of time, slain out of time, cannot be reached, gone. Be'lal, (names someone else)...

Forget everything about the Taim=Be'lal theory, and look at this quote without bias.  Specifically, look at the ellipsis.  Did RJ trail off after saying two names?  If not, the ellipsis represents a partial sentence that the transcriber did not report.  We don't know why the transcriber left out most of that sentence.  In any case, a guess about what RJ said is just that, a guess.  The quote is incomplete, and completely unconvincing as evidence against the theory.

[Majsju]

*sigh*

 

The quote would only be incomplete if there is anything more than the last name left out. And there is no reason to think there is anything more. There is however strong reason to assume that nothing was left out.

 

But if you think Tamyrlin did leave something out, shoot him an email (the adress should be somewhere on Theoryland), and ask him what he left out, and why.

[Mr Ares]

How hard can that be to comprehend?

How hard can it be to comprehend the difference between "it might be possible" and "there is evidence to suggest it"?

 

Not that people have been checking if there are similarities, either.

They have been, and there are at least as many differences as similarities, if not more.

[Graendals favourite]

How hard can that be to comprehend?

How hard can it be to comprehend the difference between "it might be possible" and "there is evidence to suggest it"?

Exactly. Would be hard for anyone to argue both positions at the same time. It is clear it might be possible, no doubt quite debatable whether there is evidence for it or if the the evidence there is suggests exactly that.

 

This is why the crowd who regurgitate misrepresentations of the authors comments are so annoying: they stop anyone who would be willing from getting over such strategems to actually looking at some evidence. In this thread, though I have been vocal lately, it is others than me who seem willing to look for the evidence, I have mainly argued against those who try to stop them. If people have the time and energy to look for things, I think it is beneficial for all if they share their findings. I have neither, I just don't look very kindly on people who would disturb the efforts of others simply for their own comfort.

Not that people have been checking if there are similarities, either.

They have been, and there are at least as many differences as similarities, if not more.

No, they have not looked for them. This is a matter similar to painting, whether your work is similar to a photograph. Mine would not be, but I have not the necessary coordination for drawing. I do have a somewhat trained eye. I think what people have said of Be'lal in this thread simply betrays how little they know him. How little we all know him. If in real life you knew so little about someone, you would not presume to know his whole life story, his character to the smallest quirk. People should not patronise the books by suggesting outright that Be'lal is such a caricature that Netweaver and Envious says it all, time after time there is the detail there that shows there is a real person behind the surface, that what people think they know is mostly wrong unless they really have some insight in the matter.

 

The fencing argument is nothing: there is no need for Be'lal to betray himself by showing himself as the greatest swordsman on the planet. The Be'lal of the Dragon Reborn speaks in the same lightly mocking tone as the Taim of LoC, yet this does not register as an argument.

 

Well, my patience for this discussion is at an end anyway, I do not care where the discussion goes, well I hope others have a good time at it, but for me, real life beckons.

[Mr Ares]

It is clear it might be possible.

But not at all likely.

 

Not that people have been checking if there are similarities, either.

They have been, and there are at least as many differences as similarities, if not more.

No, they have not looked for them.

Yes, they have been.

 

The fencing argument is nothing: there is no need for Be'lal to betray himself by showing himself as the greatest swordsman on the planet.

No, but he goes from a skilled swordsman to someone who thinks that channelers have no need of swords. Quite the turnaround.

The Be'lal of the Dragon Reborn speaks in the same lightly mocking tone as the Taim of LoC, yet this does not register as an argument.

Any more than bringing up their many differences registers with the other side.

[Weathermonger]

I always thought that there were some strong hints that Taim is actually Demandred rather than someone else like Be'lal or merely a DF. The most obvious hints were always from Lews Therin eg in LoC Ch2 94 "..rose up in a frenzy in his head. Sammael and Demandred hated me, whatever honors I gave them. The more the honors, the worse the hate, until they sold their souls and went over. Demandred especially. I should have killed him!".

  There were some similar characteristics, but vague. Demandred in LoC Prologue 70 "The corners of his mouth twitched, as close to a smile as Mesaana had ever seen from him." And Taim in LoC Ch2 98 "Taim's mouth quirked again. It really was not a smile, it never touched his eyes.".

  In LoC Prologue 70 Demandred says, "Since Sammael chose to stay away, he learns nothing. Nor do the others whether alive or dead. The first part of the Great lords message was simple. Let the Lord of Chaos rule. His words exact.". And Taim in KoD Epilogue 760 ..."He spread his hands, and it was a mocking gesture. 'What would you have me say? Fair is fair? Equal shares? Accept 'very well' and ask who will let you bond them. Besides you must remember the old saying. Let the Lord of Chaos rule.' The chamber erupted with men's laughter.".

  Also in LoC Ch3 Taim's reaction to Rand's suggestion that the Forsaken could get in amongst the students leaves Taim shaken because he was so close to being caught. Earlier he isnt shaken by the thought of fighting the Forsaken though.

  This is all circumstantial though, but Taim could be Demandred.

[Weathermonger]

I stand corrected. Havent read that or other interviews. Just a theory. In any case this is how I see the Forsaken at KoD. Mostly from musings by the forsaken themselves, what do you think?

Ishamael - Moridin        Rhavin - Dead Balefired

Be'lal  - Dead Balefired  Sammael- Dead Balefired

Asmodean - Dead/ Traitor  Lanfear- dead? Cyndane?

Aginor  Osan'gar          Balthamel- Aran'gar

Mesaana  - White Tower    Semirhage - thakandar

Graendal - Arad Doman      Moghedien - Moridins property

And would have put Demandred as Taim but just a big question mark I suppose

[Majsju]

Lanfear- dead? Cyndane?

Cyndane. Which means she was dead for a while.

 

Aginor  Osan'gar

Who is back to being dead.

 

Semirhage - thakandar

Eh, what? Semi was captured by Cadsuane and the gang in KOD.

 

And would have put Demandred as Taim but just a big question mark I suppose

Put Demandred as Working behind the scenes, and you will have it.

[Asgard Thorin]

Ah well.  I'll just be really happy when all this is over and it turns out Taim is just Taim.

 

My dear RAW, you have prepared for being right. Have you prepared for being wrong?

I may be entirely incorrect on every Be'lTaiMoridIshamael angle, but we don't know. If I happened to be right, I hope everyone who has read my theory and all the theories of those who support it are prepared. Otherwise, you'll feel like I did when I read Chapterhouse Dune. Betrayed. We have all invested too much emotion in this and I would hate for this series to end with half the fans shrieking to the heavens. Just a caution to all....

 

I would like to point out that there is no evidence that Taim and Bashere met, that is conversed before Book Six. Taim was knocked out and rendered unconscious. Since he was now guarded by Aes Sedai, there would have been no reason for Bashere to hang around with him discussing potential methods of execution over tea. I have no doubt Bashere would have seen him to report directly to his Queen that the threat was eliminated, but that doesn't mean he picked up any of the man's mannerisms. An unconscious prisoner is an uncoscious prisoner. When he was questioning Taim's identity, he was verifying information, as much as possible. There is no evidence that we have met anyone who actually knew Taim before or during his bid for power. I.e., it is possible Taim and Be'lal are complete unknowns, other than their names and existences......

 

Oh, Moiraine again. While she had an angreal and was among the Jedi Council before the wondergirls showed up, we do not know how strong the balefire she wove was. Remember, she was the one who cautioned Rand against it in the first place. There is every reason to suspect she only used the minimum amount of power necessary to ensure Be'lal died, and no reason to suspect she used her entire armory. I say again, she only used balefire because it was unstoppable, and only for Rand, the purpose of her life. I don't think she'd have done that for any other person, possibly not even for Mat or Perrin, not at the time.

The main reason why people bring the power argument up is because Rand used all his arsenal in balefire exactly....once. Against Rahvin. That was spectacular, but it makes us forget that you don't need to use all your power to make balefire. It is not forbidden because it is powerful. It is forbidden because it is an unconscionable weapon. Like Hiroshima and all other NBC in the real world, its use has unintended consequences far beyond, potentially far beyond a single use. Moiraine would have only used as much as she had to, and not a drop more. Remember, Be'lal's shout, his last action, was still in the air after he died.

[Mr Ares]

Please, kill me now.

Well, as you asked nicely *obliges RAW*

[The Doctor]

What difference does it make how much power she put behind the balefire?  balefire is balefire, permanent death in all cases.  It would seem the only difference the power level would make is in how far back ther victim's thread burned.

[Frances]

What difference does it make how much power she put behind the balefire?  balefire is balefire, permanent death in all cases.  It would seem the only difference the power level would make is in how far back ther victim's thread burned.

 

Maybe you should read the topic before posting. Normally, I wouldn't say anything, it's just that every 20 posts or so in comes someone and asks a question that has already been thoroughly explained.

 

Anyway, I think Bel'Taim is one of the looniest theories out there. And I can't understand how even after all the evidence against it presented by Majsju, RAW and Mr Ares, some people still maintain it's possible.

[The Doctor]

Sorry Frances, but I'm all about current events, I don't have time to read through 20 pages of BS (not the author) theories that make no sense, I'm too busy reading that in the woman dead and gone section.  So maybe you should do what you would noramlly do, and not say anything.

[Frances]

Well, at least you think it's a BS theory :P

[The Doctor]

True enough

[Mr Ares]

What difference does it make how much power she put behind the balefire?  balefire is balefire, permanent death in all cases.  It would seem the only difference the power level would make is in how far back ther victim's thread burned.

Week 3 Question: There are many theories that attempt to create a connection of time duration to the transmigration of the dead Forsaken. Are there time and/or power constraints on the Dark One's ability to transmigrate souls?

 

Robert Jordan Answers: There are definitely time constraints on the Dark One's power to transmigrate a soul. The soul doesn't have to be secured immediately - that is, the Dark One doesn't have to be ready to snatch the soul at the instant of death - but the longer that passes after the death, the less chance that the Dark One will be able to secure the soul. Someone who has been killed with balefire in actuality died before the apparent time of his or her death, and thus the window of opportunity for the Dark One to secure that soul for transmigration is gone before the Dark One can know that the soul must be secured unless the amount of balefire used is very small. Remember that the more balefire is used, the further back the target's thread is burned out of the pattern.

This is what started the damn theory.

[Weathermonger]

The Taim/Be'lal theory is actually growing on me all the time. As has been said Bashere didn't meet Taim before No 6 and there really is no true confirmation of his identity. Since Demandred is officially ruled out surely this can be a possibilty? Balefire certainly shouldn't matter.

[Littel me]

I Don't belived that Taim is Ba'al.

 

But RJ statment says directly "Someone who has been killed with balefire in actuality died before the apparent time of his or her death, and thus the window of opportunity for the Dark One to secure that soul for transmigration is gone before the Dark One can know that the soul must be secured unless the amount of balefire used is very small" - this implies the possebliyty that a person kill with a very small amount balefire can be transmigratet, so balefire isn't nessesarly definetif.

 

 

[water_seeker]

lol RAW, u so funny (sometimes). ;D

[Mr Ares]

The Taim/Be'lal theory is actually growing on me all the time. Since Demandred is officially ruled out surely this can be a possibilty?

No. This theory is wrong.

[Asgard Thorin]

The Taim/Be'lal theory is actually growing on me all the time. Since Demandred is officially ruled out surely this can be a possibilty?

No. This theory is wrong.

 

Perhaps, perhaps not. Regardless, there are inconsistencies with Taim, to my pov, that have not been resolved. He is too important a character for the dark side to not have hands on him. I don't think Dashiva was his boss, I think he was Dashiva's. That would all-but-demand recycled Forsaken. If nothing else, "so-called Aiel" needs a better cover story than that which has been suggested.

 

What's with all the "new" buttons on the posts? I can only get to the website periodically. I know they announced the splitting of the last book (Lord, I hope they don't call it The Gathering Storm; that is soooooooo original) but Brandon Sanderson told me they might have to months ago and I think all of us want to avoid another Book Ten debacle/sacrifice. Better it end well than just end.

[Mr Ares]

The Taim/Be'lal theory is actually growing on me all the time. Since Demandred is officially ruled out surely this can be a possibilty?

No. This theory is wrong.

Perhaps, perhaps not.

No perhaps about it, Be'lal is not Taim, Taim is not Be'lal.