Who Forasaken are masquerading as. Level 11 Spoilers

[Mr Ares]

There is nothing to be produced from this discussion. It is a crackpot theory, and deserves to be treated as such.

Why are you wasting your time then? Also, that is pretty mean.

Mean, perhaps, but accurate. And I do this because I enjoy it somewhat, and to try and persuade you that you are wrong.

 

But if we do not agree that the evidence indicates he behaves as a Chosen the whole thing falls apart. I can think of nothing in particular that indicates he behaves like a Chosen.

Okay, but I can. For example, Taim acts like a Forsaken at the end of KoD when he quotes the DO. Also, the BT has been left alone by the shadow since Rand chose Dashiva to go with him. If Taim is a disciple of one of the Forsaken why haven't we seen the chain of command? Taim and Moridin and Demandred all command Rand's death at the same time. If Taim was lower on the rung, wouldn't Moridin and/or Demandred have told Taim to do it?

So he uses a line that might have been given to him by the Chosen, that he, perhaps being a Chosen, might be expected to know, that, according to some, might not even indicate an affiliation to the dark, so much as actually being an old saying that Pevara was unfamiliar with? Pretty slim, if that's the only example of acting "like a Chosen". As for why he might have been left alone, because there was no-one to spare to look over his shoulder, and because he was doing alright without that sort of supervision. As for the order to kill Rand or steal his stuff, why should Demandred or Moridin use a middle man, as opposed to simply emploting the agents directly? Demandred specifically told them not to let Taim know. He wants this kept secet. You keep secrets by letting as few people know as possible. Also, this way prevents the message from being distorted by passing through too many hands.

 

PS. Mr Ares, I am accusing you of being a darkfriend. You consistently call them 'Chosen', a usage restricted to darkfriends. Repent now, and your end will be swift and painless...

I also consistently use the name Shai'tan, rather than Great Lord, which is traditional for Darkfriends, or terms like Dark One, etc., which are commonly used by non-DFs. Your accusation doesn't hold water. Case dismissed.

 

Mr Ares, if Taim were someone else recycled the badguys ought to be able to fake his trail.

In the sense of it being possible to fake a trail, yes. In the sense of this being something they actually did in this case, absolutely not. Taim left that trail. It was not in his nature to do otherwise. It speaks less of intentional effort, and more of a man's failing, being unable to go anywhere quietly. Plus, the trail was real - it led to Taim, who it was supposed to lead to.

[Limedust]

It might be interesting for Cadsuane to get a look at Taim.  She was partly responsible for his capture (or at least mentions tracking him down and not wanting to stay for the journey to Tar Valon) so she would certainly recognize him.  Remember as well that Bashere did not quite think that Taim was Taim when he presented himself in Camelyn--Taim said something to the effect of "I shaved, Bashere."  Granted a beard can make a man look entirely different, and there is no real evidence that Bashere was ever within a suitable range to mark features other than that beard.  Still, perhaps the grey haired old Cadsuane holds the key to who Taim actually is and Bashere was correct in thinking, even briefly, that whoever is Taim is in fact, not.

[Mr Ares]

Granted a beard can make a man look entirely different.

And the rigours of his journey made Rand overestimate his age somewhat. I don't think we need to see anything sinister in this.

[lt;(^-^)gt;]

Whether Taim seemed different to Bashere simply because of shaving and sleeping rough or because of some more complicated reason, we can't really know (unless I'm missing an RJ quote on this).  No one who knew Taim before his escape has talked to him except Bashere, who had a strange reaction.  However, we don't know how well Bashere knew Taim.  I believe the body is Taim's, at least.  It would be interesting if Cadsuane met him again - she would probably be able to see any personality change.

 

If Taim has some deeper secret beyond his private army and allegiance, I think it would be possible to include the necessary foreshadowing and development in the last book.  We already have a few tidbits that there is more to him.  Taim's story has not progressed much: he goes from an offscreen false dragon to the M'Hael, with only a few actual scenes.  He saves Rand a couple of times, then he tries to kill him.  After TG, the M'Hael will be incredibly powerful, no matter who wins.  I don't think Taim's story is done developing, or that he is simply power-hungry (and maybe evil).

 

What I'm saying is, I won't be surprised if Taim turns out to be much more than he seems.

[Troilen]

Regardless, Logain is still going to tear him up in a battle that I hope is pretty epic.

[Darlakk]

Everybody is sure that Taim is something forsakenish, why can he be a new dread lord? The Dread Lords are generals from the Trolloc wars who used the one power, more powerfull than most average Aes Sedai but less so than forsaken. Its been stated a few times from people that there will be New Dread Lords at Tarmon Gaiden, and I like Taim for that.

[Troilen]

Dreadlords were any channeler that went over to the DO during the War of Power, nothing I've seen says they were stronger in the OP than others of that day and age.  So, with DF Asha'man and BA running around, I think it's safe to say that once all out war breaks out, they will indeed be considered Dreadlords.

[Tyrell]

Everybody is sure that Taim is something forsakenish, why can he be a new dread lord? The Dread Lords are generals from the Trolloc wars who used the one power, more powerfull than most average Aes Sedai but less so than forsaken. Its been stated a few times from people that there will be New Dread Lords at Tarmon Gaiden, and I like Taim for that.

 

The 'Dreadlords' were any wielders of the one power who served the shadow during the Trolloc wars; they were afraid to incur the wrath of the real Chosen (forsaken) if they gave themselves that name, so took a different one instead. During the war that ended the age of legends EVERY Aes Sedai, weakest to strongest, who sided with the shadow was known to the goodies as Forsaken - to themselves one of the Chosen.

[Darlakk]

Dreadlords were any channeler that went over to the DO during the War of Power, nothing I've seen says they were stronger in the OP than others of that day and age.  So, with DF Asha'man and BA running around, I think it's safe to say that once all out war breaks out, they will indeed be considered Dreadlords.

 

In Lord of Chaos Harid Fel, master scholar states that there will surely be dreadlords during Tarmon Gaiden when Rand asks him about it. Later he was killed by a gholam, so he had to have said or known something that was dangerouse. Also, at the beggining of The Great Hunt Bors mentions something about rising to the top of the Darkfriend ranks to become one of the Dreadlords at Tarmon Gaiden. Whether he stated this out of ignorance or knowledge, who can say? I still think that in the last book we will see several surprise characters turn out to be high under the DF ranks( Taim, Verin Sedai?), and be given command of armies of shadowspawn. The amount of Forsaken left can surely not command all the forces of the Shadow!

[Asgard Thorin]

Everybody is sure that Taim is something forsakenish, why can he be a new dread lord? The Dread Lords are generals from the Trolloc wars who used the one power, more powerfull than most average Aes Sedai but less so than forsaken. Its been stated a few times from people that there will be New Dread Lords at Tarmon Gaiden, and I like Taim for that.

 

Taim is going to die. "The Black Tower will be rent in fire and blood. Sisters will walk its grounds."

 

Remember, Taim doesn't want Rand to return to the Black Tower, as if he knew that LTT was inside his head. Taim can't, in my opinion, just be a new dreadlord because we haven't seen the bad guys trust their underlings with anything so important as creating a Black Ajah among the Asha'man. I could be wrong, of course.

Here are the possibilities, as I see them.

Taim is a darkfriend.

Taim was turned to the shadow by those who "rescued".

Taim was united to Ishamael's soul.

Taim(his body, that is)was united to the soul of Be'lal.

Taim was united to the soul of one of the Forgotten Forsaken(one of the Chosen dead before the Bore was sealed. I know of no time limit for the DO to finish the transmigration of the soul.)

All of them have problems.

1. Shows too much confidence in an underling

2. Ditto number one. Neither explain Taim's seemingly fluid appearance or weird knowledge span.

3. Maybe just too pat for RJ.

4. Balefire, but RJ did not categorically state balefire prevented transmigration. Thus this whole post.

5. Way too cheesy for RJ, without any set up at all.

 

Oh, Mr Ares, I think the bad guys are capable of faking a trail for Taim.

I found about a dozen other examples of the use of so-called in book Six. Moghedien said so-called Aes Sedai. Tarna said so-called hall. These and all the others I came across to me as "claiming to be something you are not." Not that the "so-called Aiel" were called that because they're not ten-feet tall and bullet-proof, but because they were not followers of the Covenant. Only a Forsaken would know that. I think Black Ajah set Taim free and he had a Forsaken soul stuffed on top of his own, like Luc had Isam's. I think that would explain much

 

[Tyrell]

Taim was united to Ishamael's soul.

 

Ishamael is Moridin.

[Mr Ares]

Taim is going to die. "The Black Tower will be rent in fire and blood. Sisters will walk its grounds."

Doesn't say Taim will die.

 

Remember, Taim doesn't want Rand to return to the Black Tower, as if he knew that LTT was inside his head.

Or as if he didn't want Rand interfering with his plans.

 

Oh, Mr Ares, I think the bad guys are capable of faking a trail for Taim.

Yes, they are capable. But they didn't. That's quite clear.

[pxnsolid]

Taim was turned to the shadow by those who "rescued".

 

i like this. Liandrin had a part in it, and she told the wondertriplets that 13 fades were coming. Taim doesnt really seem like a "bad" guy, in the begining, not until we see more of him. what happens to someone thats turned? do they just snap and go evil?

[Samudor]

I agree- I like that theory a lot. I actually never even considered that possibility, but that is an interesting idea- Jordan drops so many foreshadowing hints that someone will be turned against their will. Could it be that someone was actually Taim? That is the soundest theory I've read so far I think. The only issue that creates is explaining how Taim held off the madness for so much longer than he should have been able to- if he wasn't tied to the Dark One the whole time.

[Darlakk]

Taim was turned to the shadow by those who "rescued".

 

i like this. Liandrin had a part in it, and she told the wondertriplets that 13 fades were coming. Taim doesnt really seem like a "bad" guy, in the begining, not until we see more of him. what happens to someone thats turned? do they just snap and go evil?

 

Ooo, I like that theory. I would explain why they would trust him so much, if he had been broken and turned to the shadow.

 

BTW: I had a thought about Demandred. If we hadnt seen him by book 10, is it not possible that he is in Shara, and has assumed some kind of kingship? Shara is a seemingly powerful nation that it still very secretive. One of the forsaken said it was to far away to make an immediate difference, but Demandred could march their armies accross the waste to destroy the remaining Aiel there and crash into the main area. With Matt seeming like he will marry Tuon and bring the Seanchan to rand, the shadow will have to have a powerfull nation or two fighting for them, no matter how many trollocs they have.

[pxnsolid]

The only issue that creates is explaining how Taim held off the madness for so much longer than he should have been able to- if he wasn't tied to the Dark One the whole time.

 

rand misjudged his age. while he is older then rand, he isnt old enough to have slowed yet. anyone with appropriate quotes? this shows hes held it off longer then most, but not so long as to say its direct result of the DO.

[Majsju]

Taim is in his late 20s, which means he has channeled for roughly ten years.

 

[Mr Ares]

I had a thought about Demandred. Is it not possible that he is in Shara, and has assumed some kind of kingship?

Shara's rulers were captured by Graendal, and the country appears to be in a state of upheaval. Furthermore, control of the country was previously in the hands of the Ayyad, Shara's channelers. Which makes it much harder to seize power, at least in the ways the other Chosen did. Finally, I wouldn't recommend marching an army across the Waste to take out the remaining Aiel. That would most likely end as a bloodbath, killing more of your own soldiers than it is worth.

 

what happens to someone thats turned? do they just snap and go evil?

It brings someones dark side to the forefront.

[pxnsolid]

Taim is in his late 20s, which means he has channeled for roughly ten years.

 

can male sparkers not spark later? somewhere as late as 25 or so? which could lessen that to as little as 3 years, 28 being late twenties.

 

It brings someones dark side to the forefront

 

which would go along with the fact that he doesnt seem overtly evil, more control freak then anything, aside from the obvious kill him order.

[Luckers]

Taim was turned to the shadow by those who "rescued".

 

i like this. Liandrin had a part in it, and she told the wondertriplets that 13 fades were coming. Taim doesnt really seem like a "bad" guy, in the begining, not until we see more of him. what happens to someone thats turned? do they just snap and go evil?

 

Its unlikely--Taim betrays mannerisms of the Forsaken--referring to the Aiel as 'so-called' Aiel, the use of Sammael and Be'lal's 'three lightning bolts in a fist' symbol, the use of Moridin/Ishamael's colours, the use of the 'Let the Lord of Chaos Rule' comment.

 

Since we know Taim is not actually one of the Forsaken in disguise it seems clear that he has spent conciderable time around them--longer than can be provided were he turned after his capture in tDR.

 

The key, to my mind, is in his comment to Rand about testing men for the ability to channel. He states that if you use too much strength in inducing the resonance in a potential male channeler can kill them or burn them out--yet states he only tested a couple of men.

 

My guess is that after discovering the Dragon had been born Ishamael started training men in channeling, and then sent them out to train others--we know he was active enough to achieve this as of 16 years prior to the beginning of the books (when he phyiscally killed Jarna Milari) and we know he did much the same during the Trolloc Wars.

 

can male sparkers not spark later? somewhere as late as 25 or so? which could lessen that to as little as 3 years, 28 being late twenties.

 

Indeed, some can even spark as late as 28.

[Charlz Fel]

 

The key, to my mind, is in his comment to Rand about testing men for the ability to channel. He states that if you use too much strength in inducing the resonance in a potential male channeler can kill them or burn them out--yet states he only tested a couple of men.

 

 

Two minor corrections:

 

First, Taim states that he found five men, only one of whom had the courage to go beyond the testing.  This one went mad after two years, and Taim had to kill him.

 

Even more minor, the resonance can kill them or do "nasty things to their mind"; burning out is not mentioned.

[Luckers]

First, Taim states that he found five men, only one of whom had the courage to go beyond the testing.  This one went mad after two years, and Taim had to kill him

 

So Taim claims, yet we know that to almost certainly not be true--for one, if Taim were actually training men it would have been at the Shadow's request--assuming I'm correct about him being a darkfriend by inclination not by being turned.

 

As such those men would have had protection from the Taint just like the Dreadlords who served in the Trolloc Wars. So either Taim didn't train men, or he did but they didn't go mad. Either way he was lying.

[pxnsolid]

Indeed, some can even spark as late as 28

 

ok i knew it was something like that. i also recall that where i read that, was including a quote about taim being younger then rand assumed. RJ has stated, if i can find where he said so ill post it, that taim is only in his late twenties. so while we know ishy was active at least 16 years prior to tEotW, taim is not old enough to have been channeling for long enough to slow, or slow appreiciably anyways.

[Luckers]

Men don't slow till their late twenties anyway, no matter when they start channeling.

 

But yes, that is the gist of what RJ stated--Taim is in his late twenties, but Rand overestimated his age because he was so travel-worn.

 

The earliest he could have sparked was 18, which means if he went about things the normal way he could have been channeling as much as ten years. However, if he was tested and trained (and by his own comments it would seem that male darkfriends were getting tested--not to mention the logic of Ishamael having set that in motion when he first learnt of the Dragon's birt + the fact that Liandrin implies the same is going on with women) he might have been channeling much longer than that. Indeed during the Age of Legends kids first began training in the power at 10, and his growing up around a Forsaken would explain the mirrored mannerisms. Plus i suspect Ishamael would have liked the malleability of a youth. He wouldn't want the Dreadlords to be too much of a threat to his own position.

[Sab]

First, Taim states that he found five men, only one of whom had the courage to go beyond the testing.  This one went mad after two years, and Taim had to kill him

 

So Taim claims, yet we know that to almost certainly not be true--for one, if Taim were actually training men it would have been at the Shadow's request--assuming I'm correct about him being a darkfriend by inclination not by being turned.

 

As such those men would have had protection from the Taint just like the Dreadlords who served in the Trolloc Wars. So either Taim didn't train men, or he did but they didn't go mad. Either way he was lying.

 

Not necessarily, after all if you are going to declare yourself the Dragon reborn what better way to help your cause then have a few men who can channel with you, plus when they start to show signs of being mad you just kill them.

 

I think there are a few signs the point to Tain not being in the service of the shadow at first.  For one him declaring himself the Dragon and getting the attention of the Aes Sedai is hardly the way to go about secretly building a force of male channelers.