Who Forasaken are masquerading as. Level 11 Spoilers

[Snowy Dawn]

``It would be cool if he was trained by a Forsaken, but who and when?''

 

Ishamael/Moridin, who is free during the run up to TEOTW, as evidenced by his killing Alviarin's predecessor as head of the Black Ajah shortly after the end of the Aiel war. The training would have taken place during that period (between the Aiel war and the arrival of Moiraine and Lan in Emonds field).

 

A connection that needs mentioning, I think, is the choice of colors. Moridin's colors are red-and-black---actually hyphenated like that at one point in the <i>Knife of Dreams</i>---and the tiling in the main hall of the Black Tower is also red-and-black, also hyphenated like that in the description at the end of <i>Knife of Dreams</i>. That, actually, is enough for me---Ishamael is Taim's ``sponsor'' among the Forsaken.

[agaga]

okay so iltruldes a dark friend? or just under grendals spell?

Neither. He is a soldier obeying the chain of command (his king). Problem is, the chain of command appears to have gone a bit crazy, giving lots of orders which don't help him do his job.

 

I love this theory, and have defended it before.

And it's been disproved before.

 

What evidence is there for that which is not ALSO evidence for the Taim=Be'lal theory?

Some of what Taim says and knows is inconsistent with being a normal Third Ager who trained himself - so-called Aiel, his rather accurate knowledge of testing people for the ability, which doesn't match with what he said about the number of people he has trained - yet he does not match with what is known of any of the existing Chosen. His tactics, his opinions of the sword, his attitude, all of it adds up to a figure who is clearly not Be'lal, nor is it any of the other male Chosen. Taim is Taim. There is no-one else he could be. Simple fact.

 

ohhhhh but doesnt he disobay the king by leading the raid into tarabon? isent that why he has to go to the commanders in the prolouge of WT?

[Charlz Guybon]

 

 

ohhhhh but doesnt he disobay the king by leading the raid into tarabon? isent that why he has to go to the commanders in the prolouge of WT?

 

That was just a creative interpretation of that order. He then avoids recieving more orders, because he thinks the King has become incompetent/mentally unballanced. However the orders he has been getting actually come from Graendal.

[DemandredFO]

The question I've always had about Belal not being dead is why would RJ mention the balefire caviat if never to use it.  I realize we're meant to believe this world can go on after AMOL but the balefire thing seems to serve no purpose toward that end.  We have the balefire caviat and we have a foresaken destroyed by a small amount of balefire.  Why mention it if never to use it, seems to significant.

[Fryn]

Keep in mind the caveat is in interviews and not in the books. In the books the only reference we have is the DO stating he can't bring rahvin back from being balefired.

 

RAHVIN DEAD IN HIS PRIDE. HE SERVED ME WELL, YET EVEN I CANNOT SAVE HIM FROM BALEFIRE. EVEN I CANNOT STEP OUTSIDE OF TIME. For an instant terrible anger filled that awful voice, and -- could it be frustration?

 

It is kind of odd that he also didn't mention Belal. But by all accounts, by what has been presented in the books, we only know that the DO can't save those hit by balefire. So it might be possible, but it would take additional explaination in text for it to come as anything other than appearing to be out of the blue.

[Luckers]

It would be cool if he was trained by a Forsaken, but who and when?

 

Ishamael was physically active as of 16 years ago when he forced Jarna Milari into a ter'angreal in order to kill her. If he could do that he could train budding male channelers--indeed we know he did so during the Trolloc Wars, so why not now?

 

The question I've always had about Belal not being dead is why would RJ mention the balefire caviat if never to use it.  I realize we're meant to believe this world can go on after AMOL but the balefire thing seems to serve no purpose toward that end.  We have the balefire caviat and we have a foresaken destroyed by a small amount of balefire.  Why mention it if never to use it, seems to significant.

 

Well, first of all Moiraine may not have had Forsaken level strength, but she was far from weak. Very far, in fact. That her balefire acounts for 'very weak balefire' seems a tad unlikely to me.

 

As for why mention it--the thrill of worldbuilding. In my own writing i develop a thousand useless facts as a part of developing the overall sense of the world. It's actually fun--indeed, it is the reason i write, and from what ive heard from other writers the sensation is the same reason they write. Forgive a man for wanting to glory in the complexity of the universe he's made.

 

Be'lal is not Taim. Taim is not Be'lal. They are utterly different in nature, dichotomis even. That, in and of itself serves as proof.

[Mr Ares]

His tactics, his opinions of the sword, his attitude, all of it adds up to a figure who is clearly not Be'lal, nor is it any of the other male Chosen. Taim is Taim. There is no-one else he could be. Simple fact.

I don't know about the sword thing. He could disdain the sword while still knowing the forms, also remember he was killed by the power while he held a sword.

So Taim thinks people who have the Power don't need swords, and only starts training people in the use of swords when Rand orders him. Be'lal is the reverse, being one of the first to turn swords into weapons of war again. Completely different.

Have you honestly compared Be'lal's sections with Taim's?

Yes, hence picking up that they act nothing alike. Have you?

I don't think they act very differently, especially the anger and envy both show toward Rand, and a large ego and overconfidence in their plans.

These are hardly traits unique to Be'lal though. Not even traits limited to the Chosen. Might as well say Taim blinks, and so does Be'lal - so they must be the same!

As for tactics, I don't see them as very different but I understand how one might disagree.

Taim is blunt, Be'lal is subtle. No, not very different.

However, I do not understand how you can be so sure that your version of things is fact.

Because it is. All the evidence supports it. There is not one tiny shred of evidence that Taim is Be'lal, and plenty against it. Like Luckers said, they are completely different in nature. Be'laim doesn't work. Fact.

[Wolfsbane]

First off, I'd like to thank you guys. You've managed to help me kill almost two hours of my shift reading through this discussion and going over the submitted evidence. In fear that this topic will slip into a circular argument as refuted/stated evidence is brought up over again and again because people don't have the time/job that permits them to read it all, I will offer these:

 

1) Taim is not Be'lal. He is not Be'lal in disguise. It is already confirmed the two were in existence at the same moment, and those contending the connection have conceded he could not be Taim. Instead, they alledge the two are occupying the same body in respect to the Slayer/Luc existence. Be'lal cannot be in soul possession of Taim's body as the personality differences are too grand. If it is a shared existence, that could explain Taim continuing to be.. well Taim. I do agree there are holes (DO not saying Be'lal is beyond his reach/Moiraine saying she can only balefire back a couple of seconds even with her angreal [it's a hard weave people]/RJ not saying Be'lal's fate=Rahvin's fate) BUT.. it's all circumstantial. There are no rock solid facts, but circumstantial evidence based on.. holes. I don't support this theory, merely mean to state it so the discussion can progress.

 

2) If Taim isn't a shared soul and his own man, he is surely a student of Ishamael or Demandred. Too many coincidences smack of Morridin/Ish's hand to be ignored. But Demy is renowned gambler, and Taim is a pretty big gamble.

 

3) Masema seems more fit to be one of Demandred's proxy of chaos. Destroy the world before the DO breaks loose, and flame the Dragon's name while they're at it.

 

4) Demandred isn't on the Island of Madmen. He may have a proxy, minor ties there, but ultimately unless there's a Callandor V2.0 sitting there-even then that's a quick weekend visit to pick up-he has no business there. The IoM is a nice little fun fact so people don't think the WoT world is so small, and that the Breaking hasn't entirely subsided. Crazy.

 

If there are any other points that aren't just opinion but agreed speculation, please feel free to add. An enjoyable WoT-geekfest indeed.

 

-wolfs

[agaga]

Demy is keeping a low profile in the one place we can't go...the place where silk comes from.  He knows how to test for the ability to learn male channeling.  He is building a secret alternative to the Black Tower there.  That's where the dreadlords will come from to lead the Shadow's forces at TG.  The only reason that he won't be successful is that Elayne is going to invent a terangreal that Matt's generals can use to communicate directly over long distances without having to channel (she'll copy one that Avienda will find in the pile of rubbish from Ebou Dar).  No.  I didn't read all 12 pages.  The wife already says I spend too much time in DM fantasy land.  >:(

 

now thats a theory!!! and a good one very nice i agree! ;D

[Asgard Thorin]

It would be cool if he was trained by a Forsaken, but who and when?

 

Ishamael was physically active as of 16 years ago when he forced Jarna Milari into a ter'angreal in order to kill her. If he could do that he could train budding male channelers--indeed we know he did so during the Trolloc Wars, so why not now?

 

The question I've always had about Belal not being dead is why would RJ mention the balefire caviat if never to use it.  I realize we're meant to believe this world can go on after AMOL but the balefire thing seems to serve no purpose toward that end.  We have the balefire caviat and we have a foresaken destroyed by a small amount of balefire.  Why mention it if never to use it, seems to significant.

 

Well, first of all Moiraine may not have had Forsaken level strength, but she was far from weak. Very far, in fact. That her balefire acounts for 'very weak balefire' seems a tad unlikely to me.

 

As for why mention it--the thrill of worldbuilding. In my own writing i develop a thousand useless facts as a part of developing the overall sense of the world. It's actually fun--indeed, it is the reason i write, and from what ive heard from other writers the sensation is the same reason they write. Forgive a man for wanting to glory in the complexity of the universe he's made.

 

Be'lal is not Taim. Taim is not Be'lal. They are utterly different in nature, dichotomis even. That, in and of itself serves as proof.

 

Moiraine admitted that the most she could destroy would be a few seconds. Book Five, right after Rand killed the Darkhounds. Rand using balefire scared her enough that she swore her oath to him. In my opinion, calling them dichotomies is an opinion. And I have the same question about the caveat. Those two facts(Moiraine's admission, caveat's existence) were part of the inspiration of this debate in the first place.

[Luckers]

i said that Taim and Be'lal were so different in nature that they could be termed dichotomous, not that Moirain'es comment was dichotomous--i don't even see how a comment like hers can can be a exclusionary opposite of anything. It was a straight and simple comment.

 

Secondly, RJ did not specify that the limits placed on recycling a balefire would be done based on time removed--indeed, even Rand can remove barely a handful of minutes--he stated that it was on strength expended, so yes, whilst Moiraine may not be Forsaken level strength she is nontheless quite strong, and i do consider it to be incredibly unlikely that that she could come close to fulfilling the requirements RJ stated.

 

It is the differences between Be'lal and Taim that set this in stone, but even were that not the case i'd see no basis in Moiraine's comment.

 

And what caveat?

 

Oh, and as an unrelated aside it was Rand refusing to listen to her at the balefire incident, in culmination of his growing estrangement from her, that made her swear an oath. Her fear of the strength of his balefire, if indeed she experienced any such emotion, had nothing to do with it.

[Casco]

Be'lal have been balefired. Balefire erase you totaly, you have never been existing at all. Totaly erased from the weave. How can you bring something back that never have existed?

The only thing that still remains is the memories...but you cant bring a memory back to life.

Be'lal is a goner...

[Luckers]

Was Bel'Al in the Stone of Tear while Taim was in Saldea?

 

Yes, he was. People claim that after he was taken by Aes Sedai, and freed by the Shadow he was taken to Shayol Ghoul and Be'lal placed into him.

 

Be'lal have been balefired. Balefire erase you totaly, you have never been existing at all. Totaly erased from the weave. How can you bring something back that never have existed?

The only thing that still remains is the memories...but you cant bring a memory back to life.

Be'lal is a goner...

 

RJ stated that if very weak balefire is used a person might still be secured by the Dark One for transmigration. People claim that that might apply to Moiraine--its unlikely but possible. Thankfully there is other evidence that disproves the idea completely.

 

Be'lal is indeed a goner.

 

[Mr Ares]

Balefire erase you totaly, you have never been existing at all. Totaly erased from the weave. How can you bring something back that never have existed?

No. Balefire does not erase your entire life. Not even close - Moiraine erased only a few seconds of Be'lal. So he did exist.

[Asgard Thorin]

"His tactics, his opinions of the sword, his attitude, all of it adds up to a figure who is clearly not Be'lal"

 

Mr Ares, we know absolutely nothing about Bel'al, not since the third book, and very little then. True, Taim expressed a contempt for swords, in book six, but a forsaken might want to be more...formal...with the Dragon Reborn in a trap than with anyone else. Also, Bel'al/Ishamael's trap at Callandor was to get Rand to withdraw Callandor, so that adds a bit of weight to the special case. Iam glad that we agree on one thing though, that Taim is not a normal Third Ager.

[Asgard Thorin]

Be'lal have been balefired. Balefire erase you totaly, you have never been existing at all. Totaly erased from the weave. How can you bring something back that never have existed?

The only thing that still remains is the memories...but you cant bring a memory back to life.

Be'lal is a goner...

 

No, Casco, balefire doesn't erase you totally, it just erases part of your pattern before you were killed by it-otherwise, Morgase would have suddenly found herself back in Caemlyn and Queen again after Ravhin's death, remembering everything, but wondering what happened. If balefire was as powerful as you say, using it just once might unravel the pattern forever.

 

And Moiraine's balefire might have been weak for another reason besides her own comparative weakness. She chose to make it weak, gambling everything on the fact that Bel'al would not expect her to know it. Remember, her balefire against the Darkhounds was far more powerful. She was only thirty feet away from him(give or take). Bel'al had time to recognise what she was doing, and might, since the Dark One was watching,(Chosen tied to him) been recyclable(sp?) Moiraine, fully aware of the dangers, would only have done what was needed-and balefire is not an easy weave, thus the ter'angreal to make it(Asne). The only reason she used balefire was that it was unstoppable. It's only advantage was it would not fail.

[Graendals favourite]

I agree with this. Taim could feign not knowing the sword, and more sinister reasons for him to disdain learning it come to mind as well. Since Be'lal is as good as a swordsman gets, he would hardly care for Haslin's teachings, besides Rand hearing that Taim already was equivalent to a Blademaster would certainly be a blow to his cover as Taim. Should Taim wear a sword, Haslin might immediately recognise that Taim knows not to stick himself with it.

 

Then there is the question of attitude. Taim and Be'lal certainly have being envious in common. Taim reeks of it, especially when Rand hands him his trinket Dragon and sword, and Lews Therin did with Be'lal back in the day. There is Alviarin's testimony on Be'lal, that he only thought of people as pieces on a board: this is exactly how Taim behaves, as seen in Dumai's Wells, he does not care about the Aiel one way or another except as weapons. There is Taim gathering his coterie of men who are loyal to him, and also making use of Logain's existence, obviously he has done his share of netweaving in the Black Tower. I do not see it at all unlikely Be'lal could be Taim.

 

The largest question will be whether Graendal knows about it ;D.

[Graendals favourite]

One question came to mind immediately. Be'lal was a Dreamwalker. Is Taim one? If not, is Cyndane still a Dreamwalker? The Dreamwalking-ability might be tied to the body, too. All of the Forsaken can visit Tel'aran'rhiod, though I don't know if any save Ishamael, Lanfear, Moghedien(?), Be'lal and Asmodean(?) were Dreamers, (assuming Moghedien was since Birgitte thought her abilities in Tel'aran'rhiod superseded Lanfear's, and the rest since they appeared in the dreams of others or drew people in their own dreams or Tel'aran'rhiod).

[DaTaimsta]

I know we keep going on about Taim being Be'lal, but if I'm not mistaken, Be'lal wasn't THAT strong in the Power was he? I mean we really don't have any evidence of this but you hear everyone mentioning Sammael and Demandred hating Lews Therin, being almost as good, even in the Power, but you never hear Be'lal's name.

 

Taim is almost as strong as Rand in the OP (one of the reason why the Taimandred theory was so popular, his strength is comparable to Demandred's) so what basis do we have that Be'lal was as strong as Demandred? Just saying.

[Graendals favourite]

In the BWB, the following is said:

 

  White Rahvin preferred manipulation, the Forsaken known as Be'lal, the Envious, was a master of it, to the point that he was often known as the Netweaver. As Duram Laddel Cham, he was the Age of Legends' equivalent of an advocate, representing people in courts of law. That he was good at what he did is proven by the honorific third name, but not by any other source. He is the Forsaken about whom the least is known.

  Some sources suggest that he, like Sammael, had been one of the leaders in the fight against the Shadow before he turned to the Dark, and that he envied and later hated Lews Therin. A tall, athletic man with close-cropped silver hair, he combined and surpassed the strengths of both Rahvin and Sammael, being both a patient and cunning planner and a capable fighter willing to do battle directly with the foe.

...

 

There is that much at least. The BWB is not really very reliable on such things, and it is not specified if strength in the Power is implied by surpassing strengths or being a leader in the fight against the Shadow, yet I think it certainly does allow for Be'lal to be very strong. It also implies that if Taim is Be'lal, Rand might be in trouble....

[DaTaimsta]

In the BWB, the following is said:

 

  White Rahvin preferred manipulation, the Forsaken known as Be'lal, the Envious, was a master of it, to the point that he was often known as the Netweaver. As Duram Laddel Cham, he was the Age of Legends' equivalent of an advocate, representing people in courts of law. That he was good at what he did is proven by the honorific third name, but not by any other source. He is the Forsaken about whom the least is known.

  Some sources suggest that he, like Sammael, had been one of the leaders in the fight against the Shadow before he turned to the Dark, and that he envied and later hated Lews Therin. A tall, athletic man with close-cropped silver hair, he combined and surpassed the strengths of both Rahvin and Sammael, being both a patient and cunning planner and a capable fighter willing to do battle directly with the foe.

...

 

There is that much at least. The BWB is not really very reliable on such things, and it is not specified if strength in the Power is implied by surpassing strengths or being a leader in the fight against the Shadow, yet I think it certainly does allow for Be'lal to be very strong. It also implies that if Taim is Be'lal, Rand might be in trouble....

 

Oh wow, I'll have to check that out sometime because I haven't been able to find Be'lal info anywhere. If he was really stronger than Rahvin and Sammael he would be very strong indeed. I think Rand was reading Rahvin's OP strength while he was chasing him through the palace in Caemlyn, and if I'm mistaken, he says that perhaps Rahvin was as strong as him. Be'lal being stronger than Rahvin would be trouble for Rand indeed.

 

Also, Sammael was a real biotch and a half to kill, and Be'lal being stronger than him spells even more trouble. I still don't think Taim is Be'lal (ok, it IS a possibility) but if he is then I'd be happy, because that means Be'lal didn't just come in and get wasted as a character when he was balefired.

[alexbjt]

I think Asgard Thorin has come up with a very interesting theory that is ultimately flawed.

 

Majsju and Mr. Ares(sorry I'm going to write it correctly, not how you want it spelt) have reeled off several things that may or may not disprove the theory, but i think the single best argument against the theory that Be'lal is Taim is that RJ simply would not write (or plan to write) such an unsubstantiated twist into the story.

 

As Mr. Ares stated (somewhat obnoxiously, but absolutely correctly) for RJ to write that balefire puts a soul beyond the DO's reach, then in book 12 suddenly say 'turns out i was joking, here's Be'lal again!!' would leave the vast majority of readers feeling cheated.  The best twists are those that have been prefaced in previous books, not those that simply appear out of thin air.  The best feeling as a reader is to be surprised by a twist, but think to yourself 'Wow, i didn't see that coming but i really should have picked up on the clues that the writer left for me!'

 

But as I said, very interesting theory, i liked it.

[Graendals favourite]

Mm, I don't intend to push overly, but I think that argument isn't really convincing either. The Dark One said even he could not save Rahvin from Balefire; even he could not step outside of time. However, we did already then know something of how balefire worked, that it causes the thread to burn back in time. It is the most logical conclusion that the Dark One can secure a dying person's soul even if the person is balefired, if only the balefiring is very weak.

 

The Dark One himself attests that his ability to secure a soul is a matter of timing. So he must secure the soul in a short time after the person is dead or at the very moment of death. The logical conclusion was that it doesn't have to be the very moment of death, the Dark One does not need to foresee the death but can react to the death. If someone is strongly balefired this becomes impossible, since the window of opportunity has passed when the Dark One can notice the person is dead, as the person died earlier than the balefire struck, but assuming there is the limited window of opportunity, it is obvious that a person can be balefired weakly enough that they can still be recycled. And this can all be logically deduced in LoC when we first learn that recycling is possible.

 

I don't intend to go there, but for this reason I find it good sense the Dark One was not able to recycle Asmodean ,as RJ said, even had he wanted to and because of, not one but both together, where and how he died, the reason being that he couldn't do it because for those reasons together Asmodean's death went unnoticed to him within the specified time at least; from Demandred's pov in LoC we also know that the Dark One certainly does not know everything that happens.

 

The reputation for balefire preventing recycling has rather been born in the fan forums and discussions, but not in the books since recycling is hardly mentioned in them, aside from it happening that is.

 

 

I should add, now that I am at this, that on that quote on the first page... It really is impossible to fathom what RJ intended about Be'lal. Were there a comma between Rahvin and Be'lal, naturally it would mean there were a similitude, however a period separating the two sentences implies contradiction more naturally in my opinion. I would understand the quote, if I take it RJ muttered off after Be'lal, that Rahvin was gone, but Be'lal etc is a different question, but this is no better supported an interpretation than any other, the point is that the quote is neutral on Be'lal being recycled.

[Majsju]

I should add, now that I am at this, that on that quote on the first page... It really is impossible to fathom what RJ intended about Be'lal. Were there a comma between Rahvin and Be'lal, naturally it would mean there were a similitude, however a period separating the two sentences implies contradiction more naturally in my opinion. I would understand the quote, if I take it RJ muttered off after Be'lal, that Rahvin was gone, but Be'lal etc is a different question, but this is no better supported an interpretation than any other, the point is that the quote is neutral on Be'lal being recycled.

 

If you read that passage again, it says that RJ named someone else after Be'lal. Ie, he was not about to make a little mistake and say something along the lines of "Be'lal on the other hand...". All he does is starting to list a number of characters balefired into oblivion. If he had been about saying something radically different, rest assured that those maing the report would have made a remark about that.

 

So, to (once again...) sum it up, RJ has confirmed that Taim is not Be'lal recycled.

[Graendals favourite]

Let's have it again here so we don't need to look back at it all the time:

Tam: He doesn’t have access to all souls to be able to grab any soul?

 

Jordan: No, no, no. Because of the Bore and the fact that the bore is best perceived, the bore doesn’t really exist in Shayol Ghul, the Bore exists everywhere, its simply in Shayol Ghul where it can be perceived most easily. By the same token he has greater access to people at Shayol Ghul than he does elsewhere, or did, and uh, that’s, when you know, Rahvin died, Rahvin is balefired out of time, slain out of time, cannot be reached, gone. Be’lal, (names someone else)…,

I really don't think it reads how you say it. What could RJ be saying? Who else besides Rahvin and Be'lal was balefired to there if that was the criterium?. And if the people listening heard what he said, why did they not write it down? Obviously they could not make out what RJ said, just thought he mentioned a name they did not understand. I would think more natural that Be'lal and this other were less clear, or that he had in fact said, "Be'lal, on the other hand..."