Jump to content

DRAGONMOUNT

A WHEEL OF TIME COMMUNITY

Who Forasaken are masquerading as. Level 11 Spoilers


Asgard Thorin

Recommended Posts

There would have been tens of thousands buddy, doesn't change the fact that only those 29 had the mark that compelled obedience in Shadowspawn. It was something that turned up randomly in Myrdraal--due to the use of True Power in their creation--that was later intentionally duplicated.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Replies 374
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Interesting theory that only 29 Chosen would have recieved the Chosen mark, a theory that does not exactly fit in with what RJ has said about the Chosen during the War of Power.

 

Did you just make it up, or have you actually seen RJ say it somewhere?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

What is the Chosen Mark? I don't think that I have heard of that before.

Thank you.

The Chosen Mark is something given to the Chosen (obviously). It is invisible to humans but visible to Shadowspawn and means they will a) not attack you and b) obey orders given to them by the person with the mark. The mark Alviarin receives marks her as Shai'tan's property, and means Shadowspawn will not attack her, but doesn't grant the obedience of the Chosen mark.

 

Week 2 Question: Is the mark that Alviarin received from Shaidar Haran the same as that the Forsaken received from the Dark One? If so, is she now a Forsaken, or some sort of lesser Chosen?

 

Robert Jordan Answers: The mark that Alviarin received from Shaidar Haran was not the same as that given to the Forsaken, though it shares one function: Shadowspawn will recognize her as belonging to the Dark One. They will not obey her as they will the Forsaken, however, but she doesn't have to worry about one trying to kill her, either. She is not any sort of lesser Chosen. You might think of it more like the tattoo some people get put inside the ear of their dog, an identification so others will know who the dog belongs to as soon as they see it.

 

Week 12 Question: In Winters Heart, you mention that back in the Age of Legends, there were several other Forsaken that the Dark One had killed because he suspected they would betray him. What's their story? Were those people ever as high ranking as the 13 survivors, or where they more like high-ranking Dreadlords then actual Forsaken?

 

Robert Jordan Answers: First off, Dreadlords was the name given to men and women who could channel and sided with the Shadow in the Trolloc Wars. Yes, the women were called Dreadlords, too. They might have liked to call themselves "the Chosen," like the Forsaken, but feared to. The real Forsaken might not have appreciated it when they returned, as prophecies of the Shadow foretold would happen. Some of the Dreadlords had authority and responsibility equivalent to that of the Forsaken in the War of the Shadow, however. They ran the Shadow's side of the Trolloc Wars, though without the inherent ability to command the Myrddraal that the Forsaken possess, meaning they had to negotiate with them. Overall command at the beginning was in another's hands.

 

Forsaken was the name given to Aes Sedai who went over to the Shadow in the War of the Shadow at the end of the Age of Legends, though of course, they called themselves the Chosen, and despite the tales of the "current"Age, there were many more than a few of them. Since they occupied all sorts of levels, you might say that many were equivalent to some of the lesser Dreadlords, but it would be incorrect to call them so. At the time, they were all Forsaken—or Chosen—from the greatest to the least.

 

Some of those Forsaken the Dark One killed were every bit as high-ranking as the thirteen who were remembered, and who you might say constituted a large part of the Dark One's General Staff at the time of the sealing. With the Forsaken, where treachery and backstabbing were an acceptable way of getting ahead, the turnover in the upper ranks was fairly high, though Ishamael, Demandred, Lanfear, Graendal, Semirhage, and later Sammael, were always at the top end of the pyramid. They were very skilled at personal survival, politically and physically.

 

In large part the thirteen were remembered because they were trapped at Shayol Ghul, and so their names became part of that story, though it turned out that details of them, stories of them, survived wide-spread knowledge of the tale of the actual sealing itself. Just that they had been sealed away. Other Forsaken were left behind, so to speak, free but in a world that was rapidly sliding down the tube. The men eventually went mad and died from the same taint that killed off the other male Aes Sedai. They had no access to the Dark One's protective filters. The women died, too, though from age or in battle or from natural disasters created by insane male AesSedai or from diseases that could no longer be controlled because civilization itself had been destroyed and access to those who were skilled in Healing was all but gone. And soon after their deaths, their names were forgotten, except for what might possibly be discovered in some ancient manuscript fragment that survived the Breaking. A bleak story of people who deserved no better, and not worth telling in any detail.

I hope these quotes help. I don't recall any mention of an exact number of people ever given the Chosen mark, I always had the impression all the Chosen had it.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

What is the Chosen Mark? I don't think that I have heard of that before.

Thank you.

The Chosen Mark is something given to the Chosen (obviously). It is invisible to humans but visible to Shadowspawn and means they will a) not attack you and b) obey orders given to them by the person with the mark. The mark Alviarin receives marks her as Shai'tan's property, and means Shadowspawn will not attack her, but doesn't grant the obedience of the Chosen mark.

 

Week 2 Question: Is the mark that Alviarin received from Shaidar Haran the same as that the Forsaken received from the Dark One? If so, is she now a Forsaken, or some sort of lesser Chosen?

Robert Jordan Answers: The mark that Alviarin received from Shaidar Haran was not the same as that given to the Forsaken, though it shares one function: Shadowspawn will recognize her as belonging to the Dark One. They will not obey her as they will the Forsaken, however, but she doesn't have to worry about one trying to kill her, either. She is not any sort of lesser Chosen. You might think of it more like the tattoo some people get put inside the ear of their dog, an identification so others will know who the dog belongs to as soon as they see it.

 

 

 

 

Alright, thats good stuff, and just the kind of good and clear answer I was looking for. Thank you. :)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

at the time of the sealing, there were only 13 chosen, the rest were dead. the reason the forsaken were caught was that there was a meeting planned with all the chosen to discuss the war effort on a whole, it wouldnt make sense that you would omit several key members from a meeting like that.

 

As for Dreadlords, i think they were always put over shadowspawn. there was no negotiation, not evena fade would negotiate with someone who would fry you to a crisp if you disobeyed them. I think the Shadow Army was composed thus, at the top, the Chosen, the generals, marshals and politicians, then the dreadlords, the captains and colonels, myrddraal were the sergeants, trollocs the soldiers, and the darkfriends the conscripts and cannon (and trolloc) fodder.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

RJ stated that the compulsion of obedience had direct correlation to the True Power in the ToR QotW and Moghedian specifies that only 29 Chosen had that connection.

 

RJ stated that the use of TP in the creation of shadowspawn made it possible for the Chosen to control them through the Chosen mark. A mark given by the DO who is the source of TP.

 

Moghedien told Moridin that 29 of the Chosen had been granted access to TP.

 

Two very different things.

 

at the time of the sealing, there were only 13 chosen, the rest were dead. the reason the forsaken were caught was that there was a meeting planned with all the chosen to discuss the war effort on a whole, it wouldnt make sense that you would omit several key members from a meeting like that.

 

Um, no. The 13 forsaken that was imprisoned with the DO were the highest ranking Chosen at that moment. There were quite a few other out there, just not high enough in the hierarchy to be invited to that meeting.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

RJ stated that the compulsion of obedience had direct correlation to the True Power in the ToR QotW and Moghedian specifies that only 29 Chosen had that connection.

 

RJ stated that the use of TP in the creation of shadowspawn made it possible for the Chosen to control them through the Chosen mark. A mark given by the DO who is the source of TP.

 

Moghedien told Moridin that 29 of the Chosen had been granted access to TP.

 

Two very different things.

 

at the time of the sealing, there were only 13 chosen, the rest were dead. the reason the forsaken were caught was that there was a meeting planned with all the chosen to discuss the war effort on a whole, it wouldnt make sense that you would omit several key members from a meeting like that.

 

Um, no. The 13 forsaken that was imprisoned with the DO were the highest ranking Chosen at that moment. There were quite a few other out there, just not high enough in the hierarchy to be invited to that meeting.

 

What is the Chosen Mark? That is what is it specifically? I don't ever remember reading it in the books. Was it what Rand cut when he captured Natael?

As for the number twenty-nine, Majsju, aussie ashaman(msp?), that was the number of people of people ever allowed the true power. We see that number when Moghedien meets Moridin "Only twenty-nine other..." or words to that effect. Right before Moridin shows her the mindtrap.

I still think Taim could be a male Forsaken(though I must admit, Bel'al probably won't return. Alas! That'd've been cool!(Properly written)) I disagree on the timing being off, and I think Moridin has some control over the saa showing in his eyes(Rand never saw them, though that might have been for some other reason) and when Moridin was looking at the Fisher King(book 8, methinks) he thought words to the effect that "it's hard to lose a game when you're playing both sides." Maybe that means something else, but from my point of view, Ockham's Razor supports Taim's living corpse having been usurped by a transmigrant Forsaken. If I'm wrong, this thread has well prepared me for that possibility(thank God, otherwise I would think that book12 had betrayed me, and the whole series would then be a waste. Maybe that sounds illogical, but then I am speaking of what my emotions would then be. I have had that happen before with other authors) If I'm right, Bel'al or Moridin, hopefully those who have read this thread will also be similarly prepared.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 7 months later...

Going back through this, I see compelling evidence against mine initial position. I can't entirely abandon it however because of one thing:

 

"so-called Aiel"

 

Forgive me, but the idea that RJ put that in only to indicate the Aiel didn't fit their legends i.e. ten-feet tall, bullet-proof, eat armies for breakfast..

to me that's absurd. It makes no sense, and to me that seems like bad authoring if RJ actually meant that.

 

If BelTaim isn't viable then methinks its TaiMoridIshamael

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

Week 12 Question: In Winters Heart, you mention that back in the Age of Legends, there were several other Forsaken that the Dark One had killed because he suspected they would betray him. What's their story? Were those people ever as high ranking as the 13 survivors, or where they more like high-ranking Dreadlords then actual Forsaken?

 

Robert Jordan Answers: First off, Dreadlords was the name given to men and women who could channel and sided with the Shadow in the Trolloc Wars. Yes, the women were called Dreadlords, too. They might have liked to call themselves "the Chosen," like the Forsaken, but feared to. The real Forsaken might not have appreciated it when they returned, as prophecies of the Shadow foretold would happen. Some of the Dreadlords had authority and responsibility equivalent to that of the Forsaken in the War of the Shadow, however. They ran the Shadow's side of the Trolloc Wars, though without the inherent ability to command the Myrddraal that the Forsaken possess, meaning they had to negotiate with them. Overall command at the beginning was in another's hands.

 

Forsaken was the name given to Aes Sedai who went over to the Shadow in the War of the Shadow at the end of the Age of Legends, though of course, they called themselves the Chosen, and despite the tales of the "current"Age, there were many more than a few of them. Since they occupied all sorts of levels, you might say that many were equivalent to some of the lesser Dreadlords, but it would be incorrect to call them so. At the time, they were all Forsaken—or Chosen—from the greatest to the least.

 

Some of those Forsaken the Dark One killed were every bit as high-ranking as the thirteen who were remembered, and who you might say constituted a large part of the Dark One's General Staff at the time of the sealing. With the Forsaken, where treachery and backstabbing were an acceptable way of getting ahead, the turnover in the upper ranks was fairly high, though Ishamael, Demandred, Lanfear, Graendal, Semirhage, and later Sammael, were always at the top end of the pyramid. They were very skilled at personal survival, politically and physically.

 

In large part the thirteen were remembered because they were trapped at Shayol Ghul, and so their names became part of that story, though it turned out that details of them, stories of them, survived wide-spread knowledge of the tale of the actual sealing itself. Just that they had been sealed away. Other Forsaken were left behind, so to speak, free but in a world that was rapidly sliding down the tube. The men eventually went mad and died from the same taint that killed off the other male Aes Sedai. They had no access to the Dark One's protective filters. The women died, too, though from age or in battle or from natural disasters created by insane male AesSedai or from diseases that could no longer be controlled because civilization itself had been destroyed and access to those who were skilled in Healing was all but gone. And soon after their deaths, their names were forgotten, except for what might possibly be discovered in some ancient manuscript fragment that survived the Breaking. A bleak story of people who deserved no better, and not worth telling in any detail.

I hope these quotes help. I don't recall any mention of an exact number of people ever given the Chosen mark, I always had the impression all the Chosen had it.

 

It seems odd that the strongest Dreadlords of the Trolloc Wars weren't given the mark. Obviously Ishy would have objected out of jealousy and megalomania, but he's only on the scene for 40 years. You'd think that without him on the scene the Dark One would in order to streamline military operations. Maybe he was sealed up too tight at the time to do so?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Going back through this, I see compelling evidence against mine initial position. I can't entirely abandon it however because of one thing:

 

"so-called Aiel"

 

Forgive me, but the idea that RJ put that in only to indicate the Aiel didn't fit their legends i.e. ten-feet tall, bullet-proof, eat armies for breakfast..

to me that's absurd. It makes no sense, and to me that seems like bad authoring if RJ actually meant that.

 

If BelTaim isn't viable then methinks its TaiMoridIshamael

 

 

A far better explanation (IMHO) is the Taim=Taim=protege of a Forsaken.  We just had this discussion in a different thread (though the title was Demandred=Taim).  ;)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It seems odd that the strongest Dreadlords of the Trolloc Wars weren't given the mark. Obviously Ishy would have objected out of jealousy and megalomania, but he's only on the scene for 40 years. You'd think that without him on the scene the Dark One would in order to streamline military operations. Maybe he was sealed up too tight at the time to do so?

 

Honestly i think a part of it was simply that the purpose of the Trolloc Wars over all was just to smash the Compact of the Ten Nations--i don't think Ishamael was too fussed about actually winning.

 

Thus, ultimately, I don't think the Dark One saw a reason to give the dreadlords that sort of power. Or perhaps even the Dark One couldn't give them that sort of mark with the seals at full strength.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It seems odd that the strongest Dreadlords of the Trolloc Wars weren't given the mark. Obviously Ishy would have objected out of jealousy and megalomania, but he's only on the scene for 40 years. You'd think that without him on the scene the Dark One would in order to streamline military operations. Maybe he was sealed up too tight at the time to do so?

 

Honestly i think a part of it was simply that the purpose of the Trolloc Wars over all was just to smash the Compact of the Ten Nations--i don't think Ishamael was too fussed about actually winning.

 

Thus, ultimately, I don't think the Dark One saw a reason to give the dreadlords that sort of power. Or perhaps even the Dark One couldn't give them that sort of mark with the seals at full strength.

 

I agree.  Ishamael admitted himself that even though he was defeated in the end, he considered it a victory, because his purpose, smashing the Ten Nations, was fulfilled.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Going back through this, I see compelling evidence against mine initial position. I can't entirely abandon it however because of one thing:

 

"so-called Aiel"

 

Forgive me, but the idea that RJ put that in only to indicate the Aiel didn't fit their legends i.e. ten-feet tall, bullet-proof, eat armies for breakfast..

to me that's absurd. It makes no sense, and to me that seems like bad authoring if RJ actually meant that.

 

If BelTaim isn't viable then methinks its TaiMoridIshamael

A far better explanation (IMHO) is the Taim=Taim=protege of a Forsaken.  We just had this discussion in a different thread (though the title was Demandred=Taim).  ;)
I agree, Taim=Taim is the best explanation. Certainly none of the Chosen are viable. He could have picked up the "so-called Aiel" from the Chosen that trained him.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I love this theory, and have defended it before.

 

One piece of evidence that I didn't see here is the timing of the news arriving from Tear and Saldaea about the victory in the Stone and Taim's escape.  They are similar distances from the WT, and both pigeons arrive there on the same day.  This implies that the events happened around the same time.

 

Taim is bad-ass.  I think even Rand is a little scared of him, and he can match the Forsaken in power.  I hope he gets a good fight scene in aMoL.  It would be cool if he was trained by a Forsaken, but who and when?  What evidence is there for that which is not ALSO evidence for the Taim=Be'lal theory?

 

I think it is more likely that Taim is not Be'lal, but there is still a (not insignificant) possibility for it, which I have found no reason to disregard.

 

Taim shuddered, as if remembering an old injury.  "Balefire is...painful, Al'Thor.  And after...you can't know the pain I've suffered."

 

Rand started.  Lews Therin was still gibbering in his head, still struggling for the source, whimpering I must end it, oh light let it end!.  Rand continued to grasp for it himself, but Taim's shield held strong.  "Balefire, Taim?"  Pieces began falling together in his head, something tickling his memory, but panic was creeping through cracks in the Void.  At any rate he had to keep Taim talking.  Logain and the loyalists would be arriving any moment.  "Are you mad? No one survives balefire."

 

Taim smiled.  "A pity for you, your 'Aes Sedai' pet was so scared of using more than a trickle.  Well, she got hers from Lanfear, though I regret I couldn't do it myself.  The...reconstruction..of my soul was quite unpleasant."

 

Taim was pacing across the small room, fists clenched in rage or pain, Rand couldn't tell.  Wait...was he talking about Moiraine?  The Stone, Callandor!  Suddenly it all fell into place.  "Be'lal" he whispered.  Lews Therin went silent.

 

The Forsaken looked up, a grim smile on his face.  "Yes, Lews Therin.  Now, enough of this talk.  It's time to die."

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest Dreadlord

Is that from the books?!?!?! I want a book & page number for that passage!!! If against all odds Taim does turn out to be a Forsaken it will be the biggest waste of a great bad guy in the world

Link to comment
Share on other sites

so RJ said before which book we had never seen damendreds alter ego? because i was thinking could damendred be rodel iltrulde? im not sure exactly which book he was introduced and when RJ said we had never seen damendreds alter ego but that might fit! i will have to check  :)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

so RJ said before which book we had never seen damendreds alter ego? because i was thinking could damendred be rodel iltrulde? im not sure exactly which book he was introduced and when RJ said we had never seen damendreds alter ego but that might fit! i will have to check  :)

 

Rodel was going around following orders from Graendel, so I doubt it is Demandred. He might not be doing exactly what Graendel expected, but all the same.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

okay so iltruldes a dark friend? or just under grendals spell? either way my points dead haha well I've only read through the seires once so I havent had a chance to go back and attempt to crack some of the puzzles RJs left us to ponder on

Link to comment
Share on other sites

okay so iltruldes a dark friend? or just under grendals spell?
Neither. He is a soldier obeying the chain of command (his king). Problem is, the chain of command appears to have gone a bit crazy, giving lots of orders which don't help him do his job.

 

I love this theory, and have defended it before.
And it's been disproved before.

 

What evidence is there for that which is not ALSO evidence for the Taim=Be'lal theory?
Some of what Taim says and knows is inconsistent with being a normal Third Ager who trained himself - so-called Aiel, his rather accurate knowledge of testing people for the ability, which doesn't match with what he said about the number of people he has trained - yet he does not match with what is known of any of the existing Chosen. His tactics, his opinions of the sword, his attitude, all of it adds up to a figure who is clearly not Be'lal, nor is it any of the other male Chosen. Taim is Taim. There is no-one else he could be. Simple fact.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

His tactics, his opinions of the sword, his attitude, all of it adds up to a figure who is clearly not Be'lal, nor is it any of the other male Chosen. Taim is Taim. There is no-one else he could be. Simple fact.

I don't know about the sword thing.  He could disdain the sword while still knowing the forms, also remember he was killed by the power while he held a sword.  Have you honestly compared Be'lal's sections with Taim's?  I don't think they act very differently, especially the anger and envy both show toward Rand, and a large ego and overconfidence in their plans.  As for tactics, I don't see them as very different but I understand how one might disagree.  However, I do not understand how you can be so sure that your version of things is fact.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.


×
×
  • Create New...