Who Forasaken are masquerading as. Level 11 Spoilers

[Samudor]

Well, if he was in the service of Ishamael, which would be the only way to explain he could know as much as Rand- one could contend something else. Remember the captured Black Ajah member's statements at the beginning of Book 4? How do we know that wasn't some twist on the truth? Don't forget that Ishamael was bluffing when he was trying to turn Rand- I'll bet he wasn't 100% sure his plan would work, and Taim would have been his backup plan. Either A: Rand would be killed and Taim would be "the Dragon" under the command of Ishamael. Or B: Rand would refuse to be turned, and Taim could be used to discredit Rand's deeds before he even got started. Plan B failed however, as Rand was able to move himself into position more quickly than anyone suspected, and he was able to kill Ishamael, which I'm sure no one would have predicted ever.

[signdragon]

Indeed during the Age of Legends kids first began training in the power at 10, and his growing up around a Forsaken would explain the mirrored mannerisms. Plus i suspect Ishamael would have liked the malleability of a youth. He wouldn't want the Dreadlords to be too much of a threat to his own position.

 

10 years old?  What is your source for that?

[Mr Ares]

10 years old?  What is your source for that?

TSR 26 - The Dedicated. Coumin's POV. "He did not resent that the Aes Sedai had passed him over at 10, saying he lacked the spark."

[Luckers]

First, Taim states that he found five men, only one of whom had the courage to go beyond the testing.  This one went mad after two years, and Taim had to kill him

 

So Taim claims, yet we know that to almost certainly not be true--for one, if Taim were actually training men it would have been at the Shadow's request--assuming I'm correct about him being a darkfriend by inclination not by being turned.

 

As such those men would have had protection from the Taint just like the Dreadlords who served in the Trolloc Wars. So either Taim didn't train men, or he did but they didn't go mad. Either way he was lying.

 

Not necessarily, after all if you are going to declare yourself the Dragon reborn what better way to help your cause then have a few men who can channel with you, plus when they start to show signs of being mad you just kill them.

 

I think there are a few signs the point to Tain not being in the service of the shadow at first.  For one him declaring himself the Dragon and getting the attention of the Aes Sedai is hardly the way to go about secretly building a force of male channelers. 

 

That doesn't really address the point i was making--yes, False Dragons could use support--indeed its stated in the books that most False Dragons have announced an amnesty. The point was that given that we know Taim is a Darkfriend (through facts other than the training of men who can channel) then we know that he was lying about the man he trained going insane--if he did train anyone, it would have been on the Shadow's orders, and thus the man wouldn't have gone insane. So either he didn't train anyone, or he did and they are fine. Either way he lied.

 

Beyond that, i suggest he was first trained by Ishamael in order to train other darkfriends. Presumably that would work in cells. Ishamael trains five men, then they train others, who train others. Ishamael would not have the time, the inclination, or the freedom to train them all. As to why i suggest it, his comments to Rand about training men have a ring of truth. There is a feel he has done that before, AND it makes sense for Ishamael to have been training men at around that stage--we know he did the same in the Trolloc Wars.

 

Beyond that though, by the time he declared himself Dragon Ishamael would have had many men trained in the ability who could train others--Taims role in what he did after that moment was not in gathering channelers, he was most probably set the task in order to ferment chaos and besmirk the name of Dragon.

 

10 years old?  What is your source for that?

TSR 26 - The Dedicated. Coumin's POV. "He did not resent that the Aes Sedai had passed him over at 10, saying he lacked the spark."

 

Mmm, and the Guide states that if they had the spark they were sent to a special school--whether they began learning the Power straight away is uncertain, maybe they began with ethics. But the long term point is that it is possible to begin training someone quite young.

[Asgard Thorin]

Taim was turned to the shadow by those who "rescued".

 

i like this. Liandrin had a part in it, and she told the wondertriplets that 13 fades were coming. Taim doesnt really seem like a "bad" guy, in the begining, not until we see more of him. what happens to someone thats turned? do they just snap and go evil?

 

Its unlikely--Taim betrays mannerisms of the Forsaken--referring to the Aiel as 'so-called' Aiel, the use of Sammael and Be'lal's 'three lightning bolts in a fist' symbol, the use of Moridin/Ishamael's colours, the use of the 'Let the Lord of Chaos Rule' comment.

 

Since we know Taim is not actually one of the Forsaken in disguise it seems clear that he has spent conciderable time around them--longer than can be provided were he turned after his capture in tDR.

The key, to my mind, is in his comment to Rand about testing men for the ability to channel. He states that if you use too much strength in inducing the resonance in a potential male channeler can kill them or burn them out--yet states he only tested a couple of men.

 

My guess is that after discovering the Dragon had been born Ishamael started training men in channeling, and then sent them out to train others--we know he was active enough to achieve this as of 16 years prior to the beginning of the books (when he phyiscally killed Jarna Milari) and we know he did much the same during the Trolloc Wars.

 

can male sparkers not spark later? somewhere as late as 25 or so? which could lessen that to as little as 3 years, 28 being late twenties.

 

Indeed, some can even spark as late as 28.

 

But we don't know that for certain. (It's nice, though to see someone on the other side of this discussion not reflexively dismiss the importance of "so-called Aiel".) It is strange, for example(at least to me) that Taim instantly knows not only of sa'angreal, he instantly grasps the concept of using tremendous amounts of power to cleanse the source. Would a simple MD (Modern Dreadlord) puzzle that out so quickly? Would an MD know how to Travel? Would an MD even know the name of that Talent? More, looking back at Taim's first meeting with Rand, he was only truely taken aback when Rand mentioned a Forsaken in disguise. He reacted to Rand muttering about breaking the seal, but we only have Rand's perspective that he was actually unsettled by breaking a seal. I think Rand noted the "truly taken aback" at the mention of the Forsaken in disguise.

[Asgard Thorin]

I think the fact that Taim was captured then "rescued" is highly suspicious. As far as I can remember, only two of the false Dragons inspired enough loyalty for their followers to attempt even thinking about that. Raolin Darksbane and either Stonebow or Amalasan(I forget which). It might in fact, only been attempted for Darksbane. Since Baalzamon claimed Logain was a tool of the Tower, though, I think we can assume the Black Ajah had raised false Dragons from time to time on Ishy's orders. Somehow, I find it highly suspicious that a false Dragon who had matched a great captain (Bashere) could escape from the middle of an army holding him prisoner(remember how many soldiers accompanied Logain into Caemlyn) while he is constantly guarded by at least six Aes Sedai. What was it, three sisters dead? Why not six? And how'd he get to the edge of camp without four hundred arrows in him? Even if they snuck him out, a very powerful Darkfriend must, methinks, been involved. Black Ajah, I'm thinking.

[Luckers]

But we don't know that for certain.

 

The problem is we do know that for certain. He cannot be Be'lal--even if you buy the idea that Moiraine was so weak her balefire didn't remove enough of him from the pattern as to stop the Dark One recycling him (which i don't--Moiraine may not be Forsaken level strength, but she is very far from being weak) you still can't get around the fact that in temprement and methodology Taim and Be'lal are polar opposites. Taim has consistantly been blunt, he favours head on assaults and behaves with a degree of irrationality. Be'lal, in contrast is subtle, favouring elaborate manouvering. And his demenour was that of cool control. He had the arrogance of percieved high intelect, not that of Taim's meglomania.

 

Yes Be'lal might well have put on an act so he wouldn't be recognised, but you don't take hiding to the point that it hamstrings your plans and makes you innefectual--which is precisely how Be'lal would have viewed Taim's hamfisted handling of events.

 

The only other option is Moridin, who also is polarized in temprement from Taim--if not to the same degree as Be'lal, who looks nothing like Taim (which is significant because RJ stated that Taim IS in his late twenties, not WAS in his late twenties before Moridin killed him and took his place behind mask of mirrors), refuses to use saidin (and likely cannot) which Taim has done, and has concerns far beyond Taim--which is the real point, Taim has surrounded himself with his men, if he spent vast portions of time away from the Tower.

 

Also too why would he place Osan'gar were he already was?

 

Taim is neither man. He is, simply speaking, Mazrim Taim.

 

It is strange, for example(at least to me) that Taim instantly knows not only of sa'angreal, he instantly grasps the concept of using tremendous amounts of power to cleanse the source. Would a simple MD (Modern Dreadlord) puzzle that out so quickly? Would an MD know how to Travel? Would an MD even know the name of that Talent? More, looking back at Taim's first meeting with Rand, he was only truely taken aback when Rand mentioned a Forsaken in disguise. He reacted to Rand muttering about breaking the seal, but we only have Rand's perspective that he was actually unsettled by breaking a seal. I think Rand noted the "truly taken aback" at the mention of the Forsaken in disguise.

 

All of that is explained in that Taim recieved training directly from Ishamael. But beyond that--Rand knew what angreal were in tEotW, and he was a country bumpkin. Moiraine sites that as a girl she used her stone because after all the stories of Aes Sedai using angreal she thought such a thing was necessary to channel at all. That Taim knew of sa'angreal is not big deal. That he guessed one would be needed to cleanse saidin is obvious too--if it didn't take great power then why hadn't someone done it before?

 

As for Travelling, that too is remembered in stories--Suroth speaks to Miraj of Asha'men using the 'ancient art of Travelling' and he instantly knows what she means. If on one side of the ocean why not the other.

 

And him being taken aback... why would a Forsaken be any more taken aback than a Darkfriend trained by Forsaken--one would think they would be less so, they are aware Rand knows Forsaken have placed themselves amongst Light bound organisations and nations. Maybe Taim's superior had not told him that and thats why he was taken aback.

 

I think the fact that Taim was captured then "rescued" is highly suspicious. As far as I can remember, only two of the false Dragons inspired enough loyalty for their followers to attempt even thinking about that. Raolin Darksbane and either Stonebow or Amalasan(I forget which). It might in fact, only been attempted for Darksbane.

 

It was Guire Amalasan, one of his leuitenants, a woman rumoured to be a renegade Aes Sedai led an attack on the Tower itself which only failed because Hawkwing led his own army against hers--which was the great sin of his that set Bonwhin to trying to tear him down and ultimately led to him conquering the Westlands.

 

Beyond which i don't see the significance. For one thing if Taim were a well trained Darkfriend channeler then why wouldn't the shadow free him--as indeed they did with Katerine? Ispan, Amico and Joiya got killed because they failed, and more than failed, were uncovered. But Taim did exactly what he was supposed to as a False Dragon. Ferment Chaos.

 

Since Baalzamon claimed Logain was a tool of the Tower, though, I think we can assume the Black Ajah had raised false Dragons from time to time on Ishy's orders. Somehow, I find it highly suspicious that a false Dragon who had matched a great captain (Bashere) could escape from the middle of an army holding him prisoner(remember how many soldiers accompanied Logain into Caemlyn) while he is constantly guarded by at least six Aes Sedai. What was it, three sisters dead? Why not six? And how'd he get to the edge of camp without four hundred arrows in him? Even if they snuck him out, a very powerful Darkfriend must, methinks, been involved. Black Ajah, I'm thinking.

 

I agree completely--though your comment about assuming blacks have set up false dragons based on that comment troubles me--i dont really see any basis from that comment to even suggest that idea. Far more likely is that Ishamael commanded Taim personally to go be a False Dragon and ferment chaos. Why would he have involved the Black Ajah?

 

But yes, given how wary the Gaidan are of attempts to free False Dragons, and what the Aes Sedai can achieve against a non-canneling enemy i agree sisters must have been involved in his escape. I actually believe the sisters involved are now with the borderlanders, though thats a longer conversation. I just necessarily see what significance you see in any of this. It speaks to him being valued by the Shadow--which he would have been.

[Jethro]

I wonder whether or not Taim has been given AoL knowledge by the Great Lord.

 

Since hes in his late twenties, I find it hard to believe that a man like Taim could survive more than 5 years without showing any outward signs of the Taint. To me, that says he has the Great Lords protection, and going off both that idea and the time when he would have received such protection-it has to have been a few years before EotW, maybe as many as five years before-at that point I think that for the Great Lord to grant Taint immunity would require the channeler to go to Shayol Ghul, because his prison was stronger than it is now. And I think for any non-Forsaken male channeler to join the Shadow, especially around that time-when the Chosen were imprisoned-would maybe make the Great Lord see fit to give Taim knowledge no longer available in this world without the Chosen.

 

I still hold to Taim being Taim, but I wonder if there is a lot more to Taim being himself than we think. So-called Aiel. I find it very hard to think Taim would say something like that in an imitation of the Chosen. I think he knows himself what the Aiel were like, not that he has heard the Chosen use the saying and uses it himself in imitation. He isnt the sort of guy who licks ass, sucks up, or imitates, unless in sarcasm, if you ask me. I definitely think Taim was not turned to the Shadow against his will; the Taim we know and love really is Taims personality, not his personality with the darker elements enhanced.

[Asgard Thorin]

But we don't know that for certain.

 

The problem is we do know that for certain. He cannot be Be'lal--even if you buy the idea that Moiraine was so weak her balefire didn't remove enough of him from the pattern as to stop the Dark One recycling him (which i don't--Moiraine may not be Forsaken level strength, but she is very far from being weak) you still can't get around the fact that in temprement and methodology Taim and Be'lal are polar opposites. Taim has consistantly been blunt, he favours head on assaults and behaves with a degree of irrationality. Be'lal, in contrast is subtle, favouring elaborate manouvering. And his demenour was that of cool control. He had the arrogance of percieved high intelect, not that of Taim's meglomania.

 

Yes Be'lal might well have put on an act so he wouldn't be recognised, but you don't take hiding to the point that it hamstrings your plans and makes you innefectual--which is precisely how Be'lal would have viewed Taim's hamfisted handling of events.

 

The only other option is Moridin, who also is polarized in temprement from Taim--if not to the same degree as Be'lal, who looks nothing like Taim (which is significant because RJ stated that Taim IS in his late twenties, not WAS in his late twenties before Moridin killed him and took his place behind mask of mirrors), refuses to use saidin (and likely cannot) which Taim has done, and has concerns far beyond Taim--which is the real point, Taim has surrounded himself with his men, if he spent vast portions of time away from the Tower.

 

Also too why would he place Osan'gar were he already was?

 

Taim is neither man. He is, simply speaking, Mazrim Taim.

 

It is strange, for example(at least to me) that Taim instantly knows not only of sa'angreal, he instantly grasps the concept of using tremendous amounts of power to cleanse the source. Would a simple MD (Modern Dreadlord) puzzle that out so quickly? Would an MD know how to Travel? Would an MD even know the name of that Talent? More, looking back at Taim's first meeting with Rand, he was only truely taken aback when Rand mentioned a Forsaken in disguise. He reacted to Rand muttering about breaking the seal, but we only have Rand's perspective that he was actually unsettled by breaking a seal. I think Rand noted the "truly taken aback" at the mention of the Forsaken in disguise.

 

All of that is explained in that Taim recieved training directly from Ishamael. But beyond that--Rand knew what angreal were in tEotW, and he was a country bumpkin. Moiraine sites that as a girl she used her stone because after all the stories of Aes Sedai using angreal she thought such a thing was necessary to channel at all. That Taim knew of sa'angreal is not big deal. That he guessed one would be needed to cleanse saidin is obvious too--if it didn't take great power then why hadn't someone done it before?

 

As for Travelling, that too is remembered in stories--Suroth speaks to Miraj of Asha'men using the 'ancient art of Travelling' and he instantly knows what she means. If on one side of the ocean why not the other.

 

And him being taken aback... why would a Forsaken be any more taken aback than a Darkfriend trained by Forsaken--one would think they would be less so, they are aware Rand knows Forsaken have placed themselves amongst Light bound organisations and nations. Maybe Taim's superior had not told him that and thats why he was taken aback.

 

I think the fact that Taim was captured then "rescued" is highly suspicious. As far as I can remember, only two of the false Dragons inspired enough loyalty for their followers to attempt even thinking about that. Raolin Darksbane and either Stonebow or Amalasan(I forget which). It might in fact, only been attempted for Darksbane.

 

It was Guire Amalasan, one of his leuitenants, a woman rumoured to be a renegade Aes Sedai led an attack on the Tower itself which only failed because Hawkwing led his own army against hers--which was the great sin of his that set Bonwhin to trying to tear him down and ultimately led to him conquering the Westlands.

 

Beyond which i don't see the significance. For one thing if Taim were a well trained Darkfriend channeler then why wouldn't the shadow free him--as indeed they did with Katerine? Ispan, Amico and Joiya got killed because they failed, and more than failed, were uncovered. But Taim did exactly what he was supposed to as a False Dragon. Ferment Chaos.

 

Since Baalzamon claimed Logain was a tool of the Tower, though, I think we can assume the Black Ajah had raised false Dragons from time to time on Ishy's orders. Somehow, I find it highly suspicious that a false Dragon who had matched a great captain (Bashere) could escape from the middle of an army holding him prisoner(remember how many soldiers accompanied Logain into Caemlyn) while he is constantly guarded by at least six Aes Sedai. What was it, three sisters dead? Why not six? And how'd he get to the edge of camp without four hundred arrows in him? Even if they snuck him out, a very powerful Darkfriend must, methinks, been involved. Black Ajah, I'm thinking.

 

I agree completely--though your comment about assuming blacks have set up false dragons based on that comment troubles me--i dont really see any basis from that comment to even suggest that idea. Far more likely is that Ishamael commanded Taim personally to go be a False Dragon and ferment chaos. Why would he have involved the Black Ajah?

 

But yes, given how wary the Gaidan are of attempts to free False Dragons, and what the Aes Sedai can achieve against a non-canneling enemy i agree sisters must have been involved in his escape. I actually believe the sisters involved are now with the borderlanders, though thats a longer conversation. I just necessarily see what significance you see in any of this. It speaks to him being valued by the Shadow--which he would have been.

 

Who said Taim and Be'lal or Moridin don't act like each other? We know almost nothing of Be'lal from the books which is almost exclusively all I derived this thread from. If Taim has two souls jammed in his flesh, which I think likely, he would have some rough edges. Everything else you pointed out has some merit, but if RJ didn't want to raise debate he would have categorically said balefire prevents transmigration. Remember, Be'lal's shouted "No!" was still ringing in the air after he was gone. His last deed was not undone. Moiraine only used it because it would be unpreventable.

 

My point with Taim's rescue was this: Be'lal and Ishy just got killed, so instead of just being a pathetic dupe (or a lesser bad guy) he got the exquisite honor of having his flesh taken over by someone else, Ishy, Be'lal, maybe both (I know, both would be cheesy.) Same way of Halima and Ag-Os, or the same way as Luc/Isam/Slayer. That would readily explain any perceived personality differences. We know Rand has a hard time being two people, and they are both himself. Why would anyone else have a much easier time? (Slayer has been de-humanized by constant Fleshing in TARhiod, plus Isam was an infant when stuffed into him.)

[Mr Ares]

We know almost nothing of Be'lal from the books which is almost exclusively all I derived this thread from.

We know a little, and it doesn't match with Taim.

If Taim has two souls jammed in his flesh, which I think likely,

Why?

Everything else you pointed out has some merit, but if RJ didn't want to raise debate he would have categorically said balefire prevents transmigration.

You don't know why RJ said that. Raising debate might not have been on his mind at the time.

 

plus Isam was an infant when stuffed into him.

No. Also, this is very diffrent to any other case - Osan'gar and Aran'gar don't have vestiges of their previous inhabitants in them, and Slayer is two people, but only one at a time. Changes of body, as well as personality. LTT is a voice in Rand's head. Taim is something else again, according to you. Still Taim, but with Be'lal on top. All this to satisfy your obsessive desire for Be'lal to be Taim, all this imagining, all this guesswork.

[Luckers]

Who said Taim and Be'lal or Moridin don't act like each other?

 

We know it from several sources. Be'lal is a careful planner, a manipulator. He lays elaborate plots around elaborate plots. From Loial we know he was called the Netweaver, and bragged of defeating Lews Therin in a game of stones, a game we know is played for finesse and subtlty. From the Guide we know he was accounted a master manipulator even in the Age of Legends, were he earned the honorific third name for his work as a lawyer. From his simple actions we know of his subtlty--consider the elaborateness of the plan to lure first the wondergirls to Tear, then to use them to lure Rand. Be'lal was a subtle, intelligent planner. A man who spun elaborate tangled webs of plots.

 

Taim, on the other hand, is a blunt man. Successful, yes. But blunt. Every part of his actions, even the more subtle of them, are blunt. Sending the four Asha'men to attack the sun palace? Turning up himself to 'announce the diserters'? Sending a Grey Man and killing it to 'save Rand' and indebt him. Establishing the private lessons for his followers, setting them up in a palace, and allowing only them to rise to the level of Asha'men. Withholding knowledge from others. If Rand were paying even the slightest attention that falls like a giant neon sign announcing something messed up was going on. Then we have the attack on Demira, that was subtle, to a degree. At least that time he thought to have his people wear costumes. The Trolloc attack on the manor too, if you'll permit me to assume that was him.

 

But the point is that even at his most subtle Taim is blunt. He and Be'lal are diametrically opposed in methodology and personality. Be'lal would not betray himself like that, not even to hide. He would have reguarded it as hamstringing himself.

 

Same goes for Moridin. He is not quite the subtle manipulator that Be'lal was, but he is a thinker, a philosopher. His personality is too controlled, too intelligent--in its own way anyway, im not saying the man's stable, just in charge of his meglomania. He looks to Rand as someone to turn, a potential tool. A piece in a game, the Fisher King. Even now, after all this time. And thats were they are proven different. Taim's jealousy of Rand is clear, he wants Rand done away with. Moridin takes a more civilized view--he wants Rand leashed. Taim places a Rand on a level with him, a rival, and hates him because he feels he is better than Rand. Moridin places Rand below him, to be used.

 

My point with Taim's rescue was this: Be'lal and Ishy just got killed, so instead of just being a pathetic dupe (or a lesser bad guy) he got the exquisite honor of having his flesh taken over by someone else, Ishy, Be'lal, maybe both (I know, both would be cheesy.) Same way of Halima and Ag-Os, or the same way as Luc/Isam/Slayer. That would readily explain any perceived personality differences. We know Rand has a hard time being two people, and they are both himself. Why would anyone else have a much easier time? (Slayer has been de-humanized by constant Fleshing in TARhiod, plus Isam was an infant when stuffed into him.)

 

Why would the Dark One do that? The dangers of dual souls is well known to the Shadow, why would he not just find a body and empty it, like he did for the others.

[Dmitri]

We know Rand has a hard time being two people, and they are both himself. Why would anyone else have a much easier time?

 

Rand isn't two people, haven't you noticed? Also, he & LTT aren't one person. One soul, yes. But two incarnations of it.

 

[Asgard Thorin]

We know Rand has a hard time being two people, and they are both himself. Why would anyone else have a much easier time?

 

Rand isn't two people, haven't you noticed? Also, he & LTT aren't one person. One soul, yes. But two incarnations of it.

 

My point exactly, Dmitri.

As for why DO would do that Luckers, why not? His order was to let the Lord of Chaos rule. Having two people in one body is certainly chaotic, and while they could only be one at a time, they could remember each others deeds. Having Ishy or Be' stuffed in Taim might be a punishment for failure or just a whim. The DO is the devil of this story. Devils, traditionally, are not noted for having a rational reason for their actions. They oppose the Creator. That can't be considered rational.

Also Be'lTaim (assuming I'm right) didn't return until after the "Lord of Chaos rule." was invoked. I think the DO is hoping Rand will play into his hands-again. (Just like LTT, BBC, DDT, CNN, LSD, LDS, whatever the other initials were.) Basically, the Forsaken don't have a free hand any more to kill Rand. Obviously, that would hinder their desires. Mr Ares, as for why I think that, I just do. It's an instinctive feeling, based on my analysis of RJ's writing style. No matter what, some of his readers will be disappointed, but as an amateur writer I study writers. I guessed that JKR had a bit more to Severus than book six of that story would seem. I was right on that. Maybe I'm right here.

[Arani Lepenque Aes Sedai]

The Dark one COULD NOT stretch out of the confines of time in LoC.  No matter how short the time, even if the time was a few seconds, he could not have.  Remember that although Moiraine could only do a few seconds unaided, she had an ANGREAL with her from TEoTW all the way to her disappearance in TFoH.

 

The Taim we know and see appeared in LoC.  Thus Bel'al CANNOT be Taim.  Unless you're suggesting that Taim was killed later, which I do not think so.

[Dmitri]

We know Rand has a hard time being two people, and they are both himself. Why would anyone else have a much easier time?

 

Rand isn't two people, haven't you noticed? Also, he & LTT aren't one person. One soul, yes. But two incarnations of it.

 

My point exactly, Dmitri.

Nope, it isn't. Rand has 1 soul.

Your theory is that Taim now has inside:

1)his own soul;

2)soul of Be'lal

and even 3)soul of Ishy.

Also, you might have forgotten:

Week 3 Question: There are many theories that attempt to create a connection of time duration to the transmigration of the dead Forsaken. Are there time and/or power constraints on the Dark One's ability to transmigrate souls?

 

Robert Jordan Answers: There are definitely time constraints on the Dark One's power to transmigrate a soul. ...

...

After the soul is secured, then a suitable body must be acquired and stripped of the (former) owner's memory and soul to make way for the favored one.

...

How does it work in your case?

If Taim got a Forsaken soul inside, then his own soul & memories are away.

It means Bel'Taim can't remember any Taim's past, actions, thoughts...

Again, doesn't compute.  :-\

 

[Luckers]

As for why DO would do that Luckers, why not? His order was to let the Lord of Chaos rule.

 

Because he wanted to win. His orders were to spread chaos in order to disrupt the light, not in order to disrupt the Shadow. The Dark One may be many things but he is not stupid.

 

The Dark One is not the Devil, either.

[Asgard Thorin]

As for why DO would do that Luckers, why not? His order was to let the Lord of Chaos rule.

 

Because he wanted to win. His orders were to spread chaos in order to disrupt the light, not in order to disrupt the Shadow. The Dark One may be many things but he is not stupid.

 

The Dark One is not the Devil, either.

 

No, devils are not stupid, but their rationale is based on the idea of overthrowing Deity. Smart thinking based off a flawed concept is still ultimately irrational.

And my argument is based of off Be'lal's soul not having lost anytime at all. Basically, I say Moiraine singed his thread but did not ignite it, because she used the minimum power. Even if she had burned a few seconds, nothing RJ said says that the DO couldn't catch his soul if he was looking. Since another Forsaken was there in hiding, the DO knew what happened, and Be'lal's last action, his shout, was not undone. Rahvin, though was burned back hours, at least. Well before Rand was in Caemlyn battling him. Everything on the subject seems to make Rahvin's death different from Be'lal's. THE CHOSEN DWINDLE...after re-reading that passage, I'm not convinced I was wrong. He only mentioned the two Forsaken who were unrecoverable.

 

Good research, though, pointing out the time limit to transmigration. Still, that raises the question of Slayer. He is differenmt than all the other transmigrants, yet he must be one, or the DO has another power with souls. Sorry to answer several posts so quickly, without more evidence, but I have to use a library to get on-line at the moment.

[Mr Ares]

No, devils are not stupid, but their rationale is based on the idea of overthrowing Deity. Smart thinking based off a flawed concept is still ultimately irrational.

Where's the flawed concept in this case?

He only mentioned the two Forsaken who were unrecoverable.

The two who died the previous day, not the one who died months ago.

[lt;(^-^)gt;]

Be'lal is a careful planner, a manipulator. He lays elaborate plots around elaborate plots. From Loial we know he was called the Netweaver, and bragged of defeating Lews Therin in a game of stones, a game we know is played for finesse and subtlty. From the Guide we know he was accounted a master manipulator even in the Age of Legends, were he earned the honorific third name for his work as a lawyer. From his simple actions we know of his subtlty--consider the elaborateness of the plan to lure first the wondergirls to Tear, then to use them to lure Rand. Be'lal was a subtle, intelligent planner. A man who spun elaborate tangled webs of plots.

 

Taim, on the other hand, is a blunt man. Successful, yes. But blunt. Every part of his actions, even the more subtle of them, are blunt. Sending the four Asha'men to attack the sun palace? Turning up himself to 'announce the diserters'? Sending a Grey Man and killing it to 'save Rand' and indebt him. Establishing the private lessons for his followers, setting them up in a palace, and allowing only them to rise to the level of Asha'men. Withholding knowledge from others. If Rand were paying even the slightest attention that falls like a giant neon sign announcing something messed up was going on. Then we have the attack on Demira, that was subtle, to a degree. At least that time he thought to have his people wear costumes. The Trolloc attack on the manor too, if you'll permit me to assume that was him.

I disagree with your analysis of some of Be'lal and Taim's actions.  There is subtlety as you say, but Be'lal is also not afraid to take direct action.  You can win stones with aggression, too.  His plot to lure the girls and Rand to the Stone was simple in my opinion.  He knew Rand needed to take the Stone because of the prophecies.  He basically just told the BA to lure Rand's girls to Tear as an extra incentive, and waited for Rand to come to him.  It is a smart plan, but not particularly clever.  Leaving clues to lead the girls to Tear might have been his doing, but it could have been the BA as well.  The hedgehog trap is another simple trick, which Be'lal didn't even lay himself.  He told the BA to do it.

 

I also disagree that all of Taim's actions are as blunt as you say.  The attack on the Sun palace was ordered by more than one person.  If that is Taim being blunt, he is no more blunt than Moridin or Demandred.  I'm not sure that the Gray Man was sent by Taim, but even if he did send it, how is it not subtle to do that?  At most he gets some of Rand's trust, at worst it can't be traced to him, and Rand feels that much more paranoid.  I feel similar about "announcing the deserters" - there is low risk, and Rand will suspect him less.  You say that Taim's running of the BT is blunt - a "neon sign".  However, Rand is oblivious, even in the face of Logain telling him directly that Taim has a private group.  Why would Taim not use the slack Rand gives him to move faster?  Taim's AM are going to be a potent force for the Shadow - he wants to build as much power as possible as quickly as he can get away with it.

 

It is not difficult for me to see how Be'lal's reputed personality from thousands of years ago might not agree with his actual personality now.  It could be inflated, or he could have changed.  Basically, I don't think there is enough evidence to say that Be'lal and Taim are opposites.  On the other hand, I agree that there is also little evidence to show that Be'lal and Taim are similar.

 

If Taim got a Forsaken soul inside, then his own soul & memories are away.

It means Bel'Taim can't remember any Taim's past, actions, thoughts...

Taim could have been put to the question.  Halima knew very specific information about the Sister she claimed to know, all gathered by Semirhage.  The only confirmed factual info Taim gives about his past is how he messed up Bashere's assassins.  It wouldn't be hard to find that out.

 

No, devils are not stupid, but their rationale is based on the idea of overthrowing Deity. Smart thinking based off a flawed concept is still ultimately irrational.

Where's the flawed concept in this case?

I think he means it is irrational to try to overthrow an all-powerful entity, because by definition an "all-powerful" entity will not lose unless it wants to.  However, we don't know if the Creator is all-powerful.  If the DO can win, then his fight is not irrational.

[balefireruinssteaks]

Also i'm fairly certain that Bel'al thought he could lure Rand into getting Calandor not so much to fulfill a prophecy but more so that he could kill Rand (who he viewed as inexperienced and easily defeated) and then take Calandor (a very powerful sa'angreal) for himself.

 

He didn't plan for Moiraine to balefire him, or for Rand to instinctively know how to defeat people (whether by luck or just by LTT being inside his head)

[Mr Ares]

No, devils are not stupid, but their rationale is based on the idea of overthrowing Deity. Smart thinking based off a flawed concept is still ultimately irrational.

Where's the flawed concept in this case?

I think he means it is irrational to try to overthrow an all-powerful entity, because by definition an "all-powerful" entity will not lose unless it wants to.  However, we don't know if the Creator is all-powerful.  If the DO can win, then his fight is not irrational.

Perhaps he does. But, as anyone who has heard of polytheism knows, Deities are not necessarily all powerful - both the Creator and Shai'tan are gods, in this instance. So why is one god overthrowing another so irrational?

[lt;(^-^)gt;]

Exactly.  The question is "is the creator all-powerful?" or, more to the point, "is it possible for the Pattern to fail?" (because its purpose is to contain the Dark One).  This, I think, brings questions about fate and the nature of the Wheel itself, and human's role in the Pattern.

 

The Creator imprisoned the DO at the moment of Creation. The method to contain the DO is a complicated reality called the Pattern.  All souls are part of the Pattern, as well as the physical world and the One Power.  From this I suggest that the purpose of every soul is to contain the DO (if the Pattern is meant to contain the DO and souls make up the pattern...).  It seems that the human soul is the key ingredient in the Pattern - the "lock mechanism" on the DO's prison.  The DO tries to escape by corrupting the human soul, and it is human souls which fights his escape the hardest.

 

You can draw some strange conclusions from this.

 

If the Wheel has spun for a very long time (as is implied), and each spin is in general the same, then it seems that the DO will never escape - the prison of the Pattern is actually perfect.  Maybe the escape of the DO is a physical impossibility, like breaking the laws of thermodynamics.  This implies a certain kind of fate that is supported by the books, because the Pattern will create the circumstances it needs to remain a prison.  Hence Ta'veren and prophesies.

 

Conversely, if the Wheel is not a perfect prison, then it is likely that this time it will be very different from all the other ways it has played out.  This is a hunch, because I think that if RJ accepts the possibility of the DO eventually winning, then he would use it.  Why write about "Wheel Turn X" when it is "Wheel Turn Z" in which the DO wins or is destroyed?

 

So, is the Pattern Prison a perfect system?  Can the Wheel truly weave as it wills, or is it possible for the DO to fully escape?

 

Although Lanfear helped drill the Bore, that is not the same as the DO escaping - it may be that the Pattern allows such an influence by the DO.  Think of it as him rattling the bars.

 

Finally, there may be a way around this: balefire obviously messes with the Pattern.

[Nightstrike]

Exactly.  The question is "is the creator all-powerful?" or, more to the point, "is it possible for the Pattern to fail?" (because its purpose is to contain the Dark One).  This, I think, brings questions about fate and the nature of the Wheel itself, and human's role in the Pattern.

 

The Creator imprisoned the DO at the moment of Creation. The method to contain the DO is a complicated reality called the Pattern.  All souls are part of the Pattern, as well as the physical world and the One Power.  From this I suggest that the purpose of every soul is to contain the DO (if the Pattern is meant to contain the DO and souls make up the pattern...).  It seems that the human soul is the key ingredient in the Pattern - the "lock mechanism" on the DO's prison.  The DO tries to escape by corrupting the human soul, and it is human souls which fights his escape the hardest.

Good question. I think RJ said in some interview that he saw the DO as a "shadowy form" of the Creator. I could be mistaken... (either remembering incorrectly or misunderstanding something). The way the DO fights to become free would strongly suggest that at least he/she/it thinks it possible. I don't know about the "human souls working as locks" theory. I think Rand's soul must have some major importance at every "last battle".

Edit: (This is from "Thus Spake the Creator")

Q: How was the Dark One created, i.e. is he a fallen angel, an inherent part of the universe, etc.? 

A: I envision the Dark One as being the dark counterpart, the dark balance if you will, to the creator carrying on the theme, the ying yang, light dark, necessity of balance theme that has run through the books... it's somewhat manichian i know, but I think it works.

 

 

If the Wheel has spun for a very long time (as is implied), and each spin is in general the same, then it seems that the DO will never escape - the prison of the Pattern is actually perfect.  Maybe the escape of the DO is a physical impossibility, like breaking the laws of thermodynamics.  This implies a certain kind of fate that is supported by the books, because the Pattern will create the circumstances it needs to remain a prison.  Hence Ta'veren and prophesies.

 

Conversely, if the Wheel is not a perfect prison, then it is likely that this time it will be very different from all the other ways it has played out.  This is a hunch, because I think that if RJ accepts the possibility of the DO eventually winning, then he would use it.  Why write about "Wheel Turn X" when it is "Wheel Turn Z" in which the DO wins or is destroyed?

 

So, is the Pattern Prison a perfect system?  Can the Wheel truly weave as it wills, or is it possible for the DO to fully escape?

 

Although Lanfear helped drill the Bore, that is not the same as the DO escaping - it may be that the Pattern allows such an influence by the DO.  Think of it as him rattling the bars.

 

I found this at wotmania, Robert Jordans answers from the Marcon interview:

Question (Asked by someone in the audience)

"At one point in the story we see Ishamael talking to Rand, and telling him that they have fought countless times in the past, but this is the final time. Is there anything about his Age that makes it special?"

Answer

"No... Every Age is repeated, there is nothing that makes this Age any different from any other turnings of the Wheel. The Wheel is endless."

Sorilea's Comments

This leads me to believe that this will not be the LAST BATTLE ever. It probably just comes about every turning of the Wheel, and since it has been such a long time ago, no one ever remembers it. Jordan explained that that is what a lot of the WoT is about, the source of legends, and how some legends are based in such a small bit of real history that no one really knows where they came from - if they are real or just made up.

[Nightstrike]

I just remembered RJ saying something about that there were an "ordinary" afterlife in WoT. Apart from reincarnations and T'a'r. Maybe some people get reborn for x entire turnings of the Wheel, and then they go to the "ordinary" afterlife. Or, maybe the DO is destined to break free eventually (which seems to contradict "Sorilea's" conclusion from the "Marcon" interview). Maybe the "ordinary" afterlife will occur when the DO breaks free (destroys the Wheel). RJ could have meant that this turning of the Wheel is just any of the previous ones... But that, at some point, the Wheel will be destroyed.

[Nightstrike]

I found something that might give a clue about what became of Be'lal (don't know if it's been mentioned before in this thread, but here it is anyway).

Dragoncon ‘05 (copied from wotmania):

Q64 – Part 2: [The DO] doesn’t have access to all souls to be able to grab any soul?

 

RJ: No, no, no. Because of the Bore and the fact that the Bore is best perceived … the Bore doesn’t really exist in Shayol Ghul, the Bore exists everywhere, its simply in Shayol Ghul where it can be perceived most easily. By the same token he has greater access to people at Shayol Ghul than he does elsewhere, or did. And uh, that’s, when you know, Rahvin died, Rahvin is balefired out of time, slain out of time, cannot be reached, gone. Be’lal, (names someone else) ...

I'd interpret that as Be'lal's soul being lost until next rebirth.