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Who Forasaken are masquerading as. Level 11 Spoilers


Asgard Thorin

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Must mention immediately here that there is that people's memories affect this issue too. I glimpsed at Taim's intro to Rand, and either he has learned well his personal history at least at a factual level, or he does remember, as his own memories or inserted by the Dark One.

 

The question is bothersome because on one had Semirhage was ordered to question Cabriana, yet Aran'gar knew her life story. It could be that Semirhage would have learned everything then recited things to Aran'gar, yet it seems to me more likely that Semirhage learned about Salidar or some similar info, and her memories were inserted to Aran'gar while in Shayol Ghul. After all, similar things were done to Fain there. However, it is unknown if Cyndane or the other recycled forsaken know anything of the previous lives of their bodies.

 

Just came to mind since on one hand Taim seemed quite convincing in his knowledge of himself, while all the time his manner seemed something other than the Saldaean expected, so while perhaps the Saldaean did not know him well, still Taim's old memories could have been given to Be'lal since it might have been purposeful he pose as the old Taim.

However we do know two souls can occupy one body: Slayer-Luc-Isam

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and somehow he brought the Asha'man to Dumai's Wells. Wouldn't he have to know where Rand was? Only Ishaamael seems to be able to track taveren.

 

This might have been adressed. A signing report has RJ saying that when Taim found out about Rands (and a whole bunch of Aiels) disappearance from Cairhien, he used Travelling to cover the route from Cairhien totwards Tar Valon, until he found them. Unfortunatly, this report is not confirmed, and should be taken with a pinch of salt. But it is an explanation that makes sense.

 

 

It makes sense for a recycled Forsaken to be at the heart of Rand's Ashaman to ensure that ultimately they fail (The Black Tower will be rent in fire and blood...and sisters will walk its grounds)(Elaida to Alviarhin, Book Seven? I probably did not get that quote verbatim).

 

A recycled forsaken...Like Osan'gar perhaps? A recycled forsaken immidiatly sent to the Black Tower upon his return to the living.

Now, had Taim been a recycled forsaken himself, it would have made little sense to use Osan'gar for this. If, however, Taim was "just" a 3rd Age DF starting to appear on the DOs radar, he would probably not be considered trustworthy enough to be allowed to work without being supervised.

 

On a completely different note, if Moridin is not Taim and if Bel'al(the one Forsaken RJ did not develope, a circumstantial argument for his recycling)is not Taim, then who could Moridin be? I have two possibilities, both based off of a question. Do we have any evidence of Moridin actually using saidin? If he is only using the True Power, then he might be anyone....like Asunwa(sp?) the chief Questioner....or even Masema. Has Moridin ever channeled that we know of?

 

Who says Moridin "is" anyone? He did not pose as anyone his first time around, and now he is quite occupied being officially Nae'blis.

As for Moridin channeling or not channeling Saidin, in order to use TP, you must have the ability to cannel Saidin (or Saidar if a woman ever were to do it). So he can if he wants to.

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Furthermore, it requires significant distortion of the evidence to imagine...
I don't see how the evidence is distorted. Bashere is the one who followed Taim but never says that he saw Taim; in fact RJ says that he was following a trail. Bashere does not prove that he was actually following Taim.
RJ says he was following a trail, yes, but he says more than that - he said it is not in the character of someone like Taim to travel quietly even should he wish it. Making references to the character of Taim undermines any theory that would put someone else in Taim's body. Someone else would not have Taim's character, so saying that it is not in Taim's character would be meaningless if it was actually Be'lal's character. Furthermore, what of the reasons for going to Caemlyn? We know Taim's reasons. They do not fit with hypothetical reasons for Be'lal. Be'lal wouldn't have any problem escaping if he was being hunted, he could Travel away. Taim couldn't.

 

Oh, and this circumstantial evidence - that would be the fact that he turned up to the South? That Bashere managed to track him to Andor, and the only reason he didn't track him further is he didn't want to start a possible war by bringing an army into another country without permission?
Yes. Taim knows about Travelling, maybe knows how to Travel. Turning up somewhere south of where he started does not mean he went south to begin with, or that he walked/rode the whole distance.
Someone did, as there was a trail to follow. So, apparently no Travelling was done.

 

Taim is Taim. The weight of evidence cannot be countered.
This is where I believe you have distorted the evidence. Is it really impossible to overcome the evidence we have so far? Taim has a great alibi, but it is not impossible that the alibi is a deceit. This would be a huge surprise, but not beyond the realm of possibility, however remote.
We have a mountain of evidence suggesting Taim is Taim, nothing at all to indicate he isn't.
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Alderthal, if Aginor and Balthamael could be given 3rd Age bodies, any recycled Forsaken could...

 

Aginor and Balthamael weren't balefired like Bel'lal was. I think once the Balefire touches you it removes you from that point in the pattern and your done. Trying to undo that with further balefiring or anything else is what lead to unstability of the pattern in the War of Power. Bel'lal is gone just like Asmodean and Rhavin, Demandred is posing as somsone we haven't seen and Taim is Taim.

 

As for Taim's comments he could easly have picked up those terms from the DO or one of the Forsaken who may have recruited him to the DO. I've seen several Aes Sedai call the Asma'Man "So-called". I think Taim saying "Let the Lord of Chaos rule" pretty much tell us readers he's working for the DO, since that's been the DO's order since LoC.

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but he says more than that - he said it is not in the character of someone like Taim to travel quietly even should he wish it. Making references to the character of Taim undermines any theory that would put someone else in Taim's body.

RJ says "a man like Mazrim Taim leaves a trail" and you interpret it as "Mazrim Taim left a trail".  I know mine is an oblique interpretation, but RJ spoke the words in the quote and all we can do is interpret them.  You may be right but this is not proof.

 

Furthermore, what of the reasons for going to Caemlyn?

That's where Rand was.  The new body and the amnesty are enough to protect him and allow him to approach Rand.

 

Someone did, as there was a trail to follow. So, apparently no Travelling was done.

Apparently, as in "it appears to be true".  It is not proven to be true.

 

We have a mountain of evidence suggesting Taim is Taim, nothing at all to indicate he isn't.

I'm glad you didn't say it's impossible.  I agree that there is good reason to think Taim is just Taim (though maybe not a "mountain of evidence").  However, the second part of that sentence is false, because there is evidence that Taim acts like a Forsaken.  Many people thought he was Demandred until it was disproven.  RJ said it, and also Demandred doesn't recognize one of the Asha Man at the cleansing so he can't be Taim.  That is solid evidence that I agree completely rules out Taimandred.  There is no such evidence for the Be'lal theory.

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but he says more than that - he said it is not in the character of someone like Taim to travel quietly even should he wish it. Making references to the character of Taim undermines any theory that would put someone else in Taim's body.
RJ says "a man like Mazrim Taim leaves a trail" and you interpret it as "Mazrim Taim left a trail". I know mine is an oblique interpretation, but RJ spoke the words in the quote and all we can do is interpret them. You may be right but this is not proof.
That quote contains a specific reference to the character of Mazrim Taim. Such a reference would be out of place if it was not Taim, but Be'lal.

 

Furthermore, what of the reasons for going to Caemlyn?
That's where Rand was. The new body and the amnesty are enough to protect him and allow him to approach Rand.
Q19: Did Taim have motives for coming to Andor after he escaped the Aes Sedai?

 

RJ: Sure, he is a man who can channel. The Aes Sedai see him as a men who can channel. They will hunt him down and gentle him if they can. He has one safe haven in the world – a place where there are more men like him. Just maybe, if there are enough men like him, the Aes Sedai won’t be able to come after him.

http://www.wotmania.com/faqtopic.asp?ID=192

Curious thing to say if it was Be'lal going there. Be'lal would hardly need to fear being hunted - he can Travel, be on the other side of the world in mere heartbeats, with no trace, no chance of the Aes Sedai following him. The reasons for going are Taim's reasons, not Be'lal's

 

Someone did, as there was a trail to follow. So, apparently no Travelling was done.
Apparently, as in "it appears to be true". It is not proven to be true.
All the evidence taken together is pretty conclusive. Someone left a trail. Taim's nature meant he couldn't help but lay a trail. He went to Caemlyn because he was being hunted and had only one safe haven. That would not be true of Be'lal. If travelling was done, it involved him skipping out, coming back, which is in no way a needlessly complicated theory. A trail was left. There would be no trail if Travelling was done, unless he went out of his way to lay a trail, which doesn't fit with what we know about his motivations - he didn't want to be pursued. It may not be proven but it is by far the most likely option.

 

We have a mountain of evidence suggesting Taim is Taim, nothing at all to indicate he isn't.
I'm glad you didn't say it's impossible.  I agree that there is good reason to think Taim is just Taim (though maybe not a "mountain of evidence"). However, the second part of that sentence is false, because there is evidence that Taim acts like a Forsaken. Many people thought he was Demandred until it was disproven. RJ said it, and also Demandred doesn't recognize one of the Asha Man at the cleansing so he can't be Taim. That is solid evidence that I agree completely rules out Taimandred. There is no such evidence for the Be'lal theory.
There is far, far less to indicate Be'lal is Taim than there ever was to indicate Demandred. Similarities in appearance, neither smiling, I can see why people could see Taimandred. Be'laim involves picking a random Chosen and saying it's Taim. It doesn't really work. there is, like I say, a mountain of evidence giving every indication that Taim is Taim, and not one tiny shred indicating he is Be'lal. We know why Taim went where he went, how Bashere was able to follow him, how Be'lal died, what Taim was doing during his time off screen, and not one bit of this puzzle looks at all like Be'lal being the one in the driving seat at any time. You can twist and distort and ignore inconvenient facts to your hearts content, but don't think you're fooling anyone. Any rational, objective look at the evidence can only see one picture emerge - of Mazrim Taim being none other than Mazrim Taim. All the evidence indicates that.
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That quote contains a specific reference to the character of Mazrim Taim. Such a reference would be out of place if it was not Taim, but Be'lal.

The question was about Taim.  Do you think RJ would have answered a question about 'asmodeon's killer' with a reference to the culprit?  No, he does not give away the plot in his answer if he wants it to be a secret.

 

There is far, far less to indicate Be'lal is Taim than there ever was to indicate Demandred. Similarities in appearance, neither smiling, I can see why people could see Taimandred.

I was pointing out that people were convinced of the plausibility of Taim being a Forsaken.  We know he can't be Demandred, but the evidence that Taim acts like a Forsaken is still there.

 

Be'laim involves picking a random Chosen and saying it's Taim.

It's not random.  It's Be'lal every time.

 

It doesn't really work. there is, like I say, a mountain of evidence giving every indication that Taim is Taim, and not one tiny shred indicating he is Be'lal.

I agree about the evidence for "Taim is Taim", but I still don't see real proof, just a circumstantial case.  And you are right again about there being no evidence that Taim is Be'lal.  That is a theory.  It looks like this:

 

Fact: Taim exhibits signs of not being what he seems.

Fact: Be'lal could have been saved by the DO.

Theory: Taim is Be'lal.

 

The circumstantial evidence that links Taim and Be'lal may be weak, but there is no evidence that proves Taim is not Be'lal.

 

We know why Taim went where he went, how Bashere was able to follow him...what Taim was doing during his time off screen,

This knowledge is gleaned from interviews with RJ.  The quotes it derives from are subject to interpretation.  If RJ wanted to keep it hidden he might have answered the way he did.  We just don't know.

 

You can twist and distort and ignore inconvenient facts to your hearts content, but don't think you're fooling anyone.

I'm not trying to fool anyone.  'Twisting' and 'distorting' are subjective.  Please, what FACTS regarding this have I ignored?

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and somehow he brought the Asha'man to Dumai's Wells. Wouldn't he have to know where Rand was? Only Ishaamael seems to be able to track taveren.

 

This might have been adressed. A signing report has RJ saying that when Taim found out about Rands (and a whole bunch of Aiels) disappearance from Cairhien, he used Travelling to cover the route from Cairhien totwards Tar Valon, until he found them. Unfortunatly, this report is not confirmed, and should be taken with a pinch of salt. But it is an explanation that makes sense.

 

 

It makes sense for a recycled Forsaken to be at the heart of Rand's Ashaman to ensure that ultimately they fail (The Black Tower will be rent in fire and blood...and sisters will walk its grounds)(Elaida to Alviarhin, Book Seven? I probably did not get that quote verbatim).

 

A recycled forsaken...Like Osan'gar perhaps? A recycled forsaken immidiatly sent to the Black Tower upon his return to the living.

Now, had Taim been a recycled forsaken himself, it would have made little sense to use Osan'gar for this. If, however, Taim was "just" a 3rd Age DF starting to appear on the DOs radar, he would probably not be considered trustworthy enough to be allowed to work without being supervised.

 

On a completely different note, if Moridin is not Taim and if Bel'al(the one Forsaken RJ did not develope, a circumstantial argument for his recycling)is not Taim, then who could Moridin be? I have two possibilities, both based off of a question. Do we have any evidence of Moridin actually using saidin? If he is only using the True Power, then he might be anyone....like Asunwa(sp?) the chief Questioner....or even Masema. Has Moridin ever channeled that we know of?

 

Who says Moridin "is" anyone? He did not pose as anyone his first time around, and now he is quite occupied being officially Nae'blis.

As for Moridin channeling or not channeling Saidin, in order to use TP, you must have the ability to cannel Saidin (or Saidar if a woman ever were to do it). So he can if he wants to.

 

Good points, but where is it written that the OP and the TP have anything to do with each other? If Ingtar had been named Nae'blis, he would have been given the ability.

As for Moridin, we are acting under the assumption that he was Ishamael-recycled. Granted, this world is a world replete with characters we'll never hear about, but the author can only include so many. It makes sense, to me, that Moridin, who by his own admission is playing both sides, would be a character we would rcognize as someone else, just as Ag-Os-Dashiva was. True, Dashiva was at the Black Tower, but somehow it seems to me that the bad guys would not just up and let a minor or medium Dark Friend run the Black Tower. They haven't left Dark Friends in charge of anything half as important(that we see in the story.)

 

Perhaps this whole thread is just grasping at straws, but there is one argument against Be'lTaim that we can shoot down immediately. The well-he-already-existed-so-it-can't-be argument. Yes, Taim already existed, but so did Halima, Dashiva, Luc and even Cyndane. That is, the bodies existed before their souls where touched by the Dark One. He used existing corpusi(I think that's a word) to rehouse his servants.

(Is that a word? Ah, well, I think the point is made.)

 

One other thing: I was re-thinking my inflected language argument, and I noticed(or remembered) not only was what the DO said to Demandred very oddly structured, but whe he said "THE CHOSEN DWINDLE...". He only mentioned Asmodean and Rahvin. I thought "What do those two have in common?"

The only answer is that they were both cut-off from the Dark One. Maybe Joar Addam Nesossin was not recycled, not because the DO would not, but because he could not. I think if Moiraine's balefire was weak enough(you can have weak balefire, reference Shadowspawn death's when Rand realises Mat and Aviendha are alive again) it might only destroy flesh and not soul-and more importantly the threads connecting each Forsaken to the Dark One. Be'lal's shout was not undone, it was still in the air. In fact, the only Balefired character in this story who we know had his thread burned back a significant distance was Rahvin.

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Good points, but where is it written that the OP and the TP have anything to do with each other? If Ingtar had been named Nae'blis, he would have been given the ability.

 

To me, it seemed quite obvious from the beginning that a person had to be a "regular" channeler in order to use the TP. RJ then confirmed this at D*Con

Question Part 2: Can a person who cannot channel the one power, can they use the true source of the Dark One?

 

Jordan: No.

 

As for Moridin, we are acting under the assumption that he was Ishamael-recycled. Granted, this world is a world replete with characters we'll never hear about, but the author can only include so many. It makes sense, to me, that Moridin, who by his own admission is playing both sides, would be a character we would rcognize as someone else, just as Ag-Os-Dashiva was. True, Dashiva was at the Black Tower, but somehow it seems to me that the bad guys would not just up and let a minor or medium Dark Friend run the Black Tower. They haven't left Dark Friends in charge of anything half as important(that we see in the story.)

 

Compare the two towers. The White Tower saw Alviarin step up and run things, once she could get some dirt on Elaida. Mesaana gave Alviarin orders, and Alviarin executed them. And until COT, Mesaana also gave Alviarin some training.

With the Black Tower, you have Taim running the place, a man that looks an awful lot like a 3rd Age DF just like Alviarin (Though I agree that there is a microscopic chance that Taim may not be a DF, but acting out of extreme ambition. I would not bet as much as a pile of lint on that though ;D). And shortly after the BTs creation, Osan'gar signs up, and is quickly.

And in Salidar, Aran'gar is initially working at least somewhat behind the scenes...

 

Perhaps this whole thread is just grasping at straws, but there is one argument against Be'lTaim that we can shoot down immediately. The well-he-already-existed-so-it-can't-be argument. Yes, Taim already existed, but so did Halima, Dashiva, Luc and even Cyndane. That is, the bodies existed before their souls where touched by the Dark One. He used existing corpusi(I think that's a word) to rehouse his servants.

(Is that a word? Ah, well, I think the point is made.)

 

Had that been an argument standing by itself, sure, then it would not be very much to use. But noone is doing that, what is done is taking the existing Taim and putting that into a broader context.

 

One other thing: I was re-thinking my inflected language argument, and I noticed(or remembered) not only was what the DO said to Demandred very oddly structured, but whe he said "THE CHOSEN DWINDLE...". He only mentioned Asmodean and Rahvin. I thought "What do those two have in common?"

The only answer is that they were both cut-off from the Dark One. Maybe Joar Addam Nesossin was not recycled, not because the DO would not, but because he could not. I think if Moiraine's balefire was weak enough(you can have weak balefire, reference Shadowspawn death's when Rand realises Mat and Aviendha are alive again) it might only destroy flesh and not soul-and more importantly the threads connecting each Forsaken to the Dark One. Be'lal's shout was not undone, it was still in the air. In fact, the only Balefired character in this story who we know had his thread burned back a significant distance was Rahvin.

 

Context. Demandred starts talking about what happened the day before, with Rahvins death, Lanfear and Asmo disappearing. That is what the DO adresses, the recent events. Be'lals death on the other hand happened months ago, it would not make any sense to toss in some thing about that into the mix. "And oh, Be'lal is still dead, in case you were wondering"...Nah.

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Furthermore, what of the reasons for going to Caemlyn?

That's where Rand was.  The new body and the amnesty are enough to protect him and allow him to approach Rand.

 

Rand didn't announce his amnesty before he met Taim. As a matter of fact, Taim showing up in Caemlyn made Rand announce his amnesty earlier then he had planned. Which means that Taim didn't go to Rand because of an amnesty (there wasn't any at the time). Taim came to Caemlyn hoping that no Aes Sedai would bother him, with the Dragon Reborn around...

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Rand didn't announce his amnesty before he met Taim. As a matter of fact, Taim showing up in Caemlyn made Rand announce his amnesty earlier then he had planned. Which means that Taim didn't go to Rand because of an amnesty (there wasn't any at the time). Taim came to Caemlyn hoping that no Aes Sedai would bother him, with the Dragon Reborn around...

I had forgotten how those events played out.  It seems unlikely that Taim would go directly to the Castle if his motive was simply to avoid Aes Sedai.  Based on what he does, I think he wanted to get in with Rand.  He brings a Seal to gain trust, with a story that sounds like a lie to me.  He knows details about the murder of Bashere's assassins, but Bashere is unsure that he is actually Taim at first.  These two items, the Seal and the personal info on Taim, convince Rand he is not an immediate danger despite Lews Therin's insistence to kill Taim.

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Rand didn't announce his amnesty before he met Taim. As a matter of fact, Taim showing up in Caemlyn made Rand announce his amnesty earlier then he had planned. Which means that Taim didn't go to Rand because of an amnesty (there wasn't any at the time). Taim came to Caemlyn hoping that no Aes Sedai would bother him, with the Dragon Reborn around...

 

When Bashere meets with Rand (Ie, when rand announces the amnesty), Taim has just entered Andor, not Caemlyn. Taim does not come to Caemlyn until he shows up in LOC, over a month later. We do not know where taim was headed at this point. Maybe caemlyn, hoping that being in a big city would make it easier for him to disappear from the radar for a while. Maybe further south, to Far Madding or tear, where he would at least not have to worry so much about Aes Sedai.

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That quote contains a specific reference to the character of Mazrim Taim. Such a reference would be out of place if it was not Taim, but Be'lal.
The question was about Taim. Do you think RJ would have answered a question about 'asmodeon's killer' with a reference to the culprit? No, he does not give away the plot in his answer if he wants it to be a secret.
Exactly. RJ is more than capable of holding back sufficient detail to leave things ambiguous. For example, saying Bashere was able to follow because a trail was left, but without saying why. As it is, he did say why, with a specific reference to Taim's character. At the time the trail was laid, it was thus Taim doing the laying, not Be'lal. Bashere followed the trail to Andor, so at least that far it was Taim. Later, we get his reasons for going to Caemlyn, and again these are things specific to Taim, so Taim decided to go to Andor, Taim decided to go to Caemlyn. It is not until later that Be'lal can be inserted into the frame, not until he is put in charge of the BT. But there are people with him then, so does no-one notice his absence, his personality change and memory issues upon return? It doesn't fit. There is nowhere along the line that a Chosen can be inserted into Taim, and even if there was there is no reason for said Chosen to be Be'lal.

 

There is far, far less to indicate Be'lal is Taim than there ever was to indicate Demandred. Similarities in appearance, neither smiling, I can see why people could see Taimandred.
I was pointing out that people were convinced of the plausibility of Taim being a Forsaken. We know he can't be Demandred, but the evidence that Taim acts like a Forsaken is still there.
There is nothing so specific that he need be a Chosen, that no other explanation would suffice. Given the amount of evidence we have indicating that it was Taim that fled South, that it was Taim who went to Caemlyn, that it was Taim who met Rand and was put in charge of the BT, that it was still Taim right at the very end, who said "let the Lord of Chaos rule", given all this, how can you get it so wrong? All the evidence we have indicates Taim is Taim, and not Be'lal.

 

Be'laim involves picking a random Chosen and saying it's Taim.
It's not random. It's Be'lal every time.
Just because you stick to the initial random selection doesn't make that initial selection any less random. Why Be'lal, in particular? There is nothing to indicate him. If he was going to be any Chosen, Demandred fits best. I know Taimandred is discredited, but I can still see why people bought into it in the first place. But I don't see why people buy into Be'lal, beyond thinking that if we could think he was Demandred, we could think he was any Chosen. Demandred wasn't just pulled out of a hat, it made sense. Be'lal, though, is just pulled out of a hat, seemingly. There is nothing of Be'lal in Taim, nothing to indicate that the two are one and the same.

 

It doesn't really work. there is, like I say, a mountain of evidence giving every indication that Taim is Taim, and not one tiny shred indicating he is Be'lal.
I agree about the evidence for "Taim is Taim", but I still don't see real proof, just a circumstantial case. And you are right again about there being no evidence that Taim is Be'lal. That is a theory. It looks like this:

 

Fact: Taim exhibits signs of not being what he seems.

Fact: Be'lal could have been saved by the DO.

Theory: Taim is Be'lal.

 

The circumstantial evidence that links Taim and Be'lal may be weak, but there is no evidence that proves Taim is not Be'lal.

There is no circumstantial evidence that links Taim and Be'lal. There is plenty of evidence that suggests that while we do not have the whole story on Taim, we do at least know, for a fact, that he is Taim. Taim's reasons for going to Caemlyn, Taim's trail Southwards, these are things very specific to Taim, they do not fit with Be'lal. They serve as a conclusive proof that Taim must be Taim. Be'lal needn't worry about being hunted, about seeking the only safe refuge on the world, these are Taim. And a man of Taim's character must lay a trail, he can't help it, but that is precisely the point. Taim's character, not Be'lal's. How an this not be considered conclusive? The two men cannot be the same. And you admit that there is no evidence! Hallelujah! Because a good theory usually will have evidence pointing towards it. This doesn't. Leaving aside WH, and RJ's statements, look at Taimandred. We have two guys who don't smile, with prominent noses, and every time one of them is around Rand, LTT rants about Demandred, specifically about Demandred. There was evidence indicating it was the case. Just no proof. We have no evidence indicating Taim and Be'lal are the same, but even if there were we could safely dismiss it because we have proof that they are not.

 

We know why Taim went where he went, how Bashere was able to follow him...what Taim was doing during his time off screen,
This knowledge is gleaned from interviews with RJ. The quotes it derives from are subject to interpretation. If RJ wanted to keep it hidden he might have answered the way he did. We just don't know.
They are not open to interpretation. They are quite specific, and they leave no room for the sort of ambiguity you claim is there. Taim was hunted. Be'lal wouldn't be hunted by Aes Sedai unless he wanted to be - he could Travel, be on the other side of the world in a few seconds. Taim's character wouldn't allow him to travel quietly, but Taim's character is not Be'lal's. There is nothing there to support you. Those interviews of RJ's are all that is needed to kill this theory stone dead. If he wanted to keep the truth hidden, he could have answered in any number if ways, ways that left it open to interpretation. As it is, he was clear, his words rule out Taim being Be'lal on the trip south, on the trip to Caemlyn. No wriggle room, no room for interpretation, no ambiguity, or at least none that would indicate Taim was Be'lal. They render your theory impossible. Inarguably, unequivocally, irrevocably, unambiguously ruled out. TAIM IS NOT BE'LAL. Fact. Not opinion, fact. This is the sort of twisting and distorting and ignoring of facts to which I refer. Those interviews cannot be spun to support you, not by any reasonable stretch of the imagination.
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I guess the only thing that confused me about "Taim is Be'lal" thing is...

 

Moiraine killed Be'lal.

 

Wasn't Taim already alive and captured/escaped during this time?  What I mean is, in order to transmigrate a soul, Bel'al would have had to die and Taim's body would have had to be available, but I thought Taim was already alive.  Or is transmigration possible by transfering a soul into a living human being - maybe i'm not understanding the process by which a person is resurrected into a new body.

 

In my head it would be like saying "Anaiya died, but was brought back as Bode Cauthon" which seems silly since the two were existing at the same time already.  (also that's just an example, I know it didn't actually happen). 

 

Could the Dark One have recycled Bel'al into Taim if Taim was already alive and well? 

 

It just doesn't seem likely that Mazrim Taim is a recycled Forsaken.  Unless the clue is in his name, yes...perhaps if you rearrange the letters in his name...of course!!!

 

Mazrim Taim is the Chosen known as Izmim Matra!!!

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Why Be'lal, in particular?

The OP has that information.  How can you debate without knowing the opposing argument?

 

And you admit that there is no evidence!

No evidence that Taim is Be'lal.  However there is evidence that Taim is not Taim, which you dispute.  However, your only explanation is a concoction just as much as this theory is.  There is no evidence that Taim was tutored by a Forsaken, just at there is none that he was taken and had something done to him at Shayol Ghul.

 

I'll spin this evidence my way:  I don't see why RJ wouldn't be crafty in his answers.  If there is more than one possible interpretation then all should be considered.  Here are the two quotes in question:

Q19: Did Taim have motives for coming to Andor after he escaped the Aes Sedai?

 

RJ: Sure, he is a man who can channel. The Aes Sedai see him as a men who can channel. They will hunt him down and gentle him if they can. He has one safe haven in the world – a place where there are more men like him. Just maybe, if there are enough men like him, the Aes Sedai won’t be able to come after him.

Well, Those are Taim's motives.  Where does that say that Be'lal doesn't take over his body?  Notice that the question is in the past tense.  Taim might have had motives, but that doesn't matter now.

 

Next is:

WinespringBrother: How did Bashere and his army manage to track Taim hundreds of miles?

 

Jordan: Because a man like Mazrim Taim leaves a trail, even when he is trying to travel quietly, traveling quietly is not in his character.

First, RJ says "a man like Mazrim Taim" so the quote might refer to someone else.  I agree it's not the first interpretation most people would come to, but that doesn't mean it's wrong.  Second, it is likely that Taim headed toward Andor for a while before he was brought to Shayol Ghul.  Be'lal could jump in at a place farther south and the trail would still be laid.  There is no known lower limit on the time needed to transmigrate and get used to the new body.

 

Mua ha ha, maybe this will be the post that fools you all!

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I've never had an opinion about Taim since I found out he wasn't Demandred. I have. however. read through all 17 pages of this posting.

 

This is something I noticed in the WOTMania link, as follows:

 

Week 4 Question: At recent book signing following the release of Crossroads of Twilight, it was reported that you confirmed that the Forsaken Demandred has never posed as the man known as Mazrim Taim, who was introduced to Rand at the beginning of Lord of Chaos. Have you confirmed that Demandred has never posed as the man known as Mazrim Taim, leader of the Black Tower?

 

Robert Jordan Answers: Yes. Demandred has never posed as Mazrim Taim. All right, those of who fell over from the shock of a simple, straightforward answer can get up off the floor now. Sometimes, simple and straightforward can be the most devious of all, as any student of Aes Sedai will tell you. <Maniacal laughter from the shadows!>

 

Given how RJ liked to play with words (and tease his fans), that little additional sentence about straightforward being devious could mean nothing at all, or possibly, that someone other than Demandred was posing as Taim.

 

Any thoughts about this?

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Why Be'lal, in particular?
The OP has that information. How can you debate without knowing the opposing argument?
Very well, thank you. And thre is nothing in the opening post to indicate Be'lal. Not over anyone else. Things like Taim leaning forward or not wearing his sword and dragon pins? Nothing to indicate Taim is anyone else, let alone Be'lal.

 

And you admit that there is no evidence!
No evidence that Taim is Be'lal. However there is evidence that Taim is not Taim, which you dispute. However, your only explanation is a concoction just as much as this theory is. There is no evidence that Taim was tutored by a Forsaken, just at there is none that he was taken and had something done to him at Shayol Ghul.
No evidence that Taim is Be'lal, exactly what I said. So why should we look at this theory as anything other than crackpot? The "evidence" that Taim is someone else could certainly be spun that way, but why? The evidence no more indicates Taim!=Taim than it does Taim=Taim. Given that, follow the shortest path: Taim=Taim requires the fewest jumps. It is the most supported. But even if we accept Taim!=Taim, then we still have to make further jumps to reach our goal: Taim=Be'lal. And we need to make pretty big jumps to accept that someone is someone so massively different, someone with so little in common, as opposed to someone simply being themselves, which requires how many assumptions? How many stretches of the imagination. Once we have a solid foundation, we work from there. We come up with theories to work out how Taim knows what he knows.

 

I'll spin this evidence my way:  I don't see why RJ wouldn't be crafty in his answers.  If there is more than one possible interpretation then all should be considered.  Here are the two quotes in question:

Q19: Did Taim have motives for coming to Andor after he escaped the Aes Sedai?

 

RJ: Sure, he is a man who can channel. The Aes Sedai see him as a men who can channel. They will hunt him down and gentle him if they can. He has one safe haven in the world – a place where there are more men like him. Just maybe, if there are enough men like him, the Aes Sedai won’t be able to come after him.

Well, Those are Taim's motives. Where does that say that Be'lal doesn't take over his body? Notice that the question is in the past tense. Taim might have had motives, but that doesn't matter now.

 

Next is:

WinespringBrother: How did Bashere and his army manage to track Taim hundreds of miles?

 

Jordan: Because a man like Mazrim Taim leaves a trail, even when he is trying to travel quietly, traveling quietly is not in his character.

First, RJ says "a man like Mazrim Taim" so the quote might refer to someone else.

Someone else, provided that person is like Taim. So far as we know, Be'lal isn't. The evidence here rules out Be'lal. Specific references to Taim's character rule out him being someone else. That is what we have here.
I agree it's not the first interpretation most people would come to, but that doesn't mean it's wrong.
It doesn't necessarily indicate it is wrong, but in this case we can be sure it is.
Second, it is likely that Taim headed toward Andor for a while before he was brought to Shayol Ghul.
But Bashere followed a trail hundreds of miles, from Saldaea to Andor. Yet he only left it part of the way before disappearing off the radar for a time then reappearing? Absurd! There was a trail to follow, and follow it they did. He we have no indication he vanished for a time, then reappeared as someone else a bit later and began laying a trail for completely different reasons, headed to Andor for completely different reasons. It is ridiculous. The evidence points one way and one way only: that it was Taim laying the trail, Taim who went to Andor, Taim all the way. As to the previous quote being in the past tense, of course! He has already arrived by this time, it wouldn't make sense to use any other tense. Why did Taim go to Andor? He is going because...He will go because....No! No! No! He isn't on his way, about to depart, he is there already. It has happened, therefore it must be past tense. It tells us why Taim went to Andor. Nothing more. It leaves no room for any argument, any reason to insert any other reason for going to Andor beyond the obvious: the reasons RJ gave for him to go to Andor were the reasons for him going to Andor. No two ways about it, those are the reasons. And do you have any idea how ridiculous points like him not saying Be'lal didn't get stuffed into him are? There are millions of things not mentioned there! He doesn't mention Taim's stint as a female impersonator, when he was replaced by a pod person, that time he got married, his conversion to Judaism, that time he was intimate with a sheep. Doesn't mean we should think for one second that a Jewish pod person of the Welsh persuasion dressed in womens clothing, with Be'lal's soul and a wife in tow was what turned up in Caemlyn, before he had a change of clothes, told his wife to wait for him, because he'd be right back, and went to the Palace. Although if we get a scene in AMoL with Mrs Taim wondering where her husband is and why he's taken so long to visit the Palace and buy some food from the local kosher butcher, then I will concede that Be'lal might still be in the picture. until then, this has nothing for it and everything against it, including the fact that Taim is not Be'lal, nor can he be.

 

Given how RJ liked to play with words (and tease his fans), that little additional sentence about straightforward being devious could mean nothing at all, or possibly, that someone other than Demandred was posing as Taim.
It could mean that RJ fooled the world! That's right, it's the one thing no-one will see coming! So simple! So devious! So ingenious! Taim is actually....Mazrim Taim, posing as Mazrim Taim, posing as Mazrim Taim!
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I'm still not convinced that it is impossible.

 

No evidence that Taim is Be'lal, exactly what I said. So why should we look at this theory as anything other than crackpot?

You should look at it seriously and not as crackpot because you are taking part in a discussion about it.  If you treat it as crackpot it makes discussion unproductive.

 

The "evidence" that Taim is someone else could certainly be spun that way, but why?

Here's why: Taim acts like a Forsaken, but he channels Saidin, and the only male Forsaken available is Be'lal.  Be'lal was balefired, but based on some quotes by RJ he might have been saved by the DO.  So, if Taim is a Forsaken, he is Be'lal.  As you can see it is not really "evidence", just a theory.

 

Really, I think the best argument against this theory is the quote about Taim being tracked by Bashere.  It does seem like RJ is saying that Taim's character left a trail.  It just isn't conclusive in my mind.

 

Given that, follow the shortest path

No, do not follow the shortest path.

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The thing that makes me think Taim is no Forsaken reincarnated is that we havent found out about it yet, and given the ammount of times it should have been mentioned at Chosen meetings I think we definitely would have. I find te Taim as a new Chosen theory slightly more likely than him being reincarnated, but I have always and will alywas believe is just Taim.

 

What I wonder is if Taim has been posing as a Chosen. For one thing we still dont know who Slayers masked employer is, and for another people have been doing things as if it was Sammael doing it. I think these incedents may be connected but its only a hunch.

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No evidence that Taim is Be'lal, exactly what I said. So why should we look at this theory as anything other than crackpot?

You should look at it seriously and not as crackpot because you are taking part in a discussion about it.  If you treat it as crackpot it makes discussion unproductive.

There is nothing to be produced from this discussion. It is a crackpot theory, and deserves to be treated as such.

 

The "evidence" that Taim is someone else could certainly be spun that way, but why?
Here's why: Taim acts like a Forsaken, but he channels Saidin, and the only male Forsaken available is Be'lal. Be'lal was balefired, but based on some quotes by RJ he might have been saved by the DO. So, if Taim is a Forsaken, he is Be'lal. As you can see it is not really "evidence", just a theory.
But if we do not agree that the evidence indicates he behaves as a Chosen the whole thing falls apart. I can think of nothing in particular that indicates he behaves like a Chosen. "So-called Aiel" is perhaps the closest thing, but I don't agree that it indicates he is a Chosen, not in any way shape or form. Furthermore, we still have no reason to believe him to be Be'lal. Just that he is the only one he could be (and some would dispute even that). Good theories have evidence to support them, this doesn't, therefore this is a bad theory. It involves Be'lal acting, essentially, nothing like Be'lal. Because, if we decide, for no apparent reason, that Taim is a Chosen, then the only one he can be is Be'lal. But we shouldn't accept he is a Chosen in the first place. All the evidence we have shows Be'lal being dead, Taim being Taim.

 

Given that, follow the shortest path
No, do not follow the shortest path.
Yes, do. Avoid needless assumptions as far as possible. Follow the evidence. The evidence points away from Be'laim.
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There is nothing to be produced from this discussion. It is a crackpot theory, and deserves to be treated as such.

Why are you wasting your time then?  Also, that is pretty mean.

 

But if we do not agree that the evidence indicates he behaves as a Chosen the whole thing falls apart. I can think of nothing in particular that indicates he behaves like a Chosen.

Okay, but I can.  For example, Taim acts like a Forsaken at the end of KoD when he quotes the DO.  Also, the BT has been left alone by the shadow since Rand chose Dashiva to go with him.  If Taim is a disciple of one of the Forsaken why haven't we seen the chain of command?  Taim and Moridin and Demandred all command Rand's death at the same time.  If Taim was lower on the rung, wouldn't Moridin and/or Demandred have told Taim to do it?

 

The thing that makes me think Taim is no Forsaken reincarnated is that we havent found out about it yet, and given the ammount of times it should have been mentioned at Chosen meetings I think we definitely would have.

I agree that RJ typically foreshadows more than he has for this theory.  I can't just abandon it for that reason though.

 

PS. Mr Ares, I am accusing you of being a darkfriend.  You consistently call them 'Chosen', a usage restricted to darkfriends.  Repent now, and your end will be swift and painless...

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The thing that makes me think Taim is no Forsaken reincarnated is that we havent found out about it yet, and given the ammount of times it should have been mentioned at Chosen meetings I think we definitely would have. I find te Taim as a new Chosen theory slightly more likely than him being reincarnated, but I have always and will alywas believe is just Taim.

 

What I wonder is if Taim has been posing as a Chosen. For one thing we still dont know who Slayers masked employer is, and for another people have been doing things as if it was Sammael doing it. I think these incedents may be connected but its only a hunch.

 

I think Slayer's masked employer was Moridin. I think Moridin has assumed the identity of Masema. That is why he must be killed.

 

One way or another, Taim=Taim or Be'lTaimMoridIshamael or whatever version of this theory you like, I think RJ wanted a healthy debate. Majsju, are you sure it was month? Thanks for the TP-OP connection, by the way. That is a month from 5-6? I myself thought it suspicious Taim showed up only days after the amnesty was announced. (If Masema was a latent channeler, he should still be able to house Moridin.)

Mr Ares, if Taim were someone else recycled the badguys ought to be able to fake his trail.

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Why would Moridin mask himself for an order on Rands death when he has already said its ok to kill him if necessary? We already have that Taim and Demandred ordered Rands death, Moridin said kill him if you have to, and someone is using the same guy as Moridin is using for Padan Fain. Why would Moridin mask himself for an order on Rand?

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I think Slayer's masked employer was Moridin. I think Moridin has assumed the identity of Masema. That is why he must be killed.

 

One way or another, Taim=Taim or Be'lTaimMoridIshamael or whatever version of this theory you like, I think RJ wanted a healthy debate. Majsju, are you sure it was month? Thanks for the TP-OP connection, by the way. That is a month from 5-6? I myself thought it suspicious Taim showed up only days after the amnesty was announced. (If Masema was a latent channeler, he should still be able to house Moridin.)

Mr Ares, if Taim were someone else recycled the badguys ought to be able to fake his trail.

 

Masema is definitly not Moridin (or any other forsaken) in disguise. It is however very possible that he is taking orders from one of them (or is Compelled by someone), though if that is the case, my money is on Demandred.

 

And, sending an assassin to take out Rand is clearly not Moridins MO.

 

Yes it is roughly a month. The few days you are thinking of is from the end of TFOH til the prologue of LOC, the prologue starts the day after the end of TFOH. The rest of the events in the prologue are spread out during the weeks until we get to see Rand again, who in chapter 1 clearly have established himself in Caemlyn.

http://www.users.bigpond.com/steven_cooper/wotchron.htm

 

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