Who Forasaken are masquerading as. Level 11 Spoilers

[Asgard Thorin]

Do not read this if you have not read book 11.

 

I still advocate the Bel'al equals Taim theory, based on the concept that Taim was actually "freed" by the Black Ajah, taken to Shayol Ghul and either had his body shared with Bel'al, much the same way Luc/Isam are shared to become Slayer, or that Bel'al was given Taim's body outright.

 

The minor evidence is the knowledge Taim has: knowing all kinds of weapons weaves, knowing the way to test, knowing at least minor weaves of healing, so on.

 

But the best evidences that Taim is at least one of the male Forsaken are how he behaves and speaks. First, he actually leans forward when Rand speaks of the evils of the Forsaken, as if eager to hear his own "glories" recounted. When Rand gives him the pins for the Ashaman, Rand says "they'll think more of theirs for seeing yours come from the Dragon Reborn." Taim's reaction is utter rage, quickly controlled, but utter rage. The male Forsaken were all extremely jealous of Lews Therin, extremely and utterly jealous, but particularly those who had fought for the Light before going to the Shadow.

Any one of them would have reacted that way. Taim also ignored the Saldaeans and Maidens in the courtyard where he first met Rand, as if they were beneath his notice. Rand noticed this lack of notice himself, but wondered if it was bravery or madness. Taim's reaction to the gateway from that courtyard to the then-called "farm" was not to stare at the gateway, but at Rand. One page later, though he didn't bat an eye at the Forsaken being loose. Also note his reaction when Rand speaks of the Shadowspawn and bubbles of evil. He had no reaction. But note his reactions to Rand saying he would cleanse saidin, and to beware of Forsaken in disguise. Both his reactions are strong, but his reaction to the disguise comment is Void-shattering in its severity. The only time Rand thinks him "well and truly taken aback." The only time, though he just saw Rand try to break a Seal. And later on, we never see Taim with the pins again. A male Forsaken masquerading would certainly have discarded them; if Taim were only Taim he might have kept them.

 

Now to what he says in book 6, aside from the Lord of Chaos comment at the end of book 11. "Nasty things, the Soulless." Then, "Men usually show later than women." Why would RJ slip that comment in that paragraph? It is a non sequitor. I think it was a hint. Back to the first, Soulless is a Forsaken usage, I believe, though not exclusively so. Back to the original farm scene, Taim said, "I have heard of things called sa'angreal." Rand only knew of them because Moiraine had told him of them. How would Taim? He is not taveren. The likelyhood of Taim blurring with his past self from the War of the Power-if his past self was even alive at that point-is extremely small. But he also says, "You can Travel, but you cannot test for the talent." How did he know its proper name?  And why would anyone but a Forsaken comment on the peculiarity of that kind of knowledge gap? If he were just Taim, or Logain or Flinn he should not have been surprised at all. (Ouick aside to Logain: reference his comment about Taim keeping favorite weaves to himself after the Deathgate battle in book 11. Who but a Forsaken would lnow such weaves? Remember, Rand's hearing/blending with his past life is unique, reference to Semirhage's reply to Cadsuane in book 11.)

Also, to me, Taim's comment about the Ashaman being taught swords (book 6)carrys a similar flavor to Bel'al's comment about swords (book 3). Both comments, to me, have a bit of contempt, though of course Bel'al learned swords before he despaired and joined the Shadow.  Also Taim said, "I keep thinking what I would do in Sammael's place." Proof that he was a military man. Finally, the ironclad dead-giveaway that Taim must be a Forsaken : "And who can know what these so-called Aiel will do?" "so-called." Only a Forsaken would say that; only a Forsaken would truly remember the Dashain, and only a Forsaken would say so-called, meaning that they were not truly Aiel at all. The Tuathan(msp?) have only a memory of the songs, heavily faded, the Aiel would not call themselves so-called, not even the clan chiefs or Wise Ones, and the Jenn Aiel are extinct.

 

Other evidences include Lews Therin's perpetual reaction to Taim, as if he could sense his Forsakenness-and Lews Therin did sense the Gray Man. Taim's sigil, book 11, is very similar to "High Lord Samon"-'s, book 3, and we have no indication of Ishamael/Moridin having a sigil, though Taim's favoring of red and black does seem to match Moridin's, book 11, book 7, respectively. I must now, reluctantly, point out Taim's ability to arrive when Rand needs him could indicate Taim is Moridin (taveren tracking, book 11) but the Gray Man could have been sent by Taim to win more of Rand's trust. Nor do I think RJ would have been that obvious in hiding Moridin. He buried Asmodean's killer so deep he despaired that anyone would ever realize who it was(from online interview), and no one I know twigged to Dashiva being Osangar until RJ told us(book 9). Plus, would Moridin dirty his hands directly, particularly building Rand's Ashaman? Moridin/Ishamael seems more likely to have ordered Bel'al to have done it. Finally, Elaida's book 7 Foretelling indicates the destruction of the Black Tower and the reunification of the White Tower, both of which should be done before the Last Battle. Unless Moridin, as Taim, would risk Rand touching him while he was hiding under Illusion even with a fist...and I don't think Moridin is sane enough to pull off the deception. I could be entirely wrong on that however. Taim, though, must be Moridin or Bel'al. RJ said he was not Demandred, and none of the other male Forsaken fit. I must confess now that I do not remember what the BWB said about Ishamael's military affiliations or accolades.

 

Now to balefire. My contention is that only Rahvin met enough of the stuff to burn him past the Dark One's reach. I believe it was in an online interview or on Tor's site in the QotW section that RJ said that those balefired are not categorically beyond salvage. Why say that if he would make no use of it at all? Just to throw us off the scent? No, he has been the gleeman telling us a tale to show us this world. He had to introduce that concept, but could not find a way to add it to the narrative or experiences of the characters that would not overcomplicate an already exponentially growing story. I suspect similar reasons for the existence of the Big White Book, The World of Robert Jordan's Wheel of Time. That book was penned to introduce to the reader concepts that were necessary, but could not be fit in the main story lines. As an amateur writer, I know how hard it is to fit everything you think you have to have into a story, and my story is whole and complete in one novel. The BWB gave us in-depth on the Seanchan, the Ayyad, the Amayar, and others that would not have been possible, as well as introducing things we'd never heard of such as the Land of Madmen.

 

Finally, back to the QotW link, RJ said words to the effect that balefire mainly skewed the Dark One's window of opportunity for salvaging the souls of those balefired. Rahvin was burned back to before the D. One could know of it-and Rahvin did not see it coming; he was looking at Nynaeve when he was annihilated. Bel'al, however, was hit by Moiraine, a much weaker channeller(msp?), he saw it coming-and both Ishamael and the Dark One were present. I.e. the Dark One had enough warning to recycle him.

 

This is my theory, my research, and my reasoning. On a separate and purely instinctive note, I think Demandred usurped the identity of High Lord Weiramon. How else could someone that incompetent still be alive?

[Guest cw]

Be'lal was balefired.  He's gone, not coming back.

[mothersmilkinacup]

Nice theory... I really like it.  cw I disagree... as Asgard Thorin states the DO can bring back those who have been balefired, it's just a bit trickier.  I would guess that he has to rub his belly, pat his head, chew gum and hit Ctrl, Alt, Del AND the resurrect button all at the same time, no easy feat, even for the DO...

 

PS. I don't think Demandrad is Weiramon and I don't think Weiramon is incompetent.  He's a high ranking dark friend, who is extremely clever - the whole incompetence thing is a ruse.  He feigns incompetence so that he can more easily pull off his dark friend schemes without raising suspicion.  It seems to be working, he has Rand bamboozled (but then again, who doesn't???).

[Guest cw]

Demandred cannot be any character that was seen prior to Crossroads of Twilight I think it was.

 

http://www.steelypips.org/wotfaq/1_dark/1.1_forsaken1/1.1.5_taimandred.html

There have been a lot of names bandied about as possibilties; Bashere, Masema, and the mysterious Taraboner seen in Arymilla's entourage outside Caemlyn [COT: 15, Gathering Darkness, 371] seem to be the most popular.

 

All of these can be debunked or contested for various reasons, but it's not necessary to do so:

 

Q: "Have we yet seen the alter ego Demandred presents to the Third Agers on-screen?"

A: "No." (I asked twice to make sure.)

 

[Michael Martin, Dayton OH signing]

So, if Demandred is disguising himself as someone, it's not someone we've met so far.

 

There is no little voodoo dance that will be able to bring you back after being balefired.  Per information provided by RJ in the Question of the Week, unless the amount used is very small your thread was cut prior to the your death making it impossible for the Dark One to secure your soul.  Based on RJ's blog entry for October 4th, 2005, it is safe to say that such a small amount of Balefire doesn't exist.

 

For Sodas, when you are balefired, you are dead, dead, dead. It almost seemed redundant to say so.

 

In other words, Be'lal is a doornail.

[Tyrell]

Yes, Balefire kills you, fireballs also kill people, as do lightning bolts and various other magical effects. The question isn't whether or not these effects kill you, its if they kill you *and* prevent the Dark One from bringing you back.

 

Now it has been stated that in small ammounts Balefire will not prevent the Dark One from snagging a soul, so the question becomes  "do we think Moiraine hit Be'lal with sufficiently small ammount of Balefire that the Dark One would be able to bring his ass back?"

 

I'm not sure, but I think it may be a possibility, afterall Moiraine is well aware of the dangers of Balefire, so why wouldn't she go for the smallest ammount available to her? Of course you may well counter that she has an Angrael (did she still have it with her at this point? been stuck into aSoIaF, haven't had time for re-reads recently) with her and given that she was facing one of the forsaken she'd have gone full power to make sure, which is quite valid. I'm sure we'll find out the deal with Taim in AMOL.

[Majsju]

Also,

 

Tam: He doesn’t have access to all souls to be able to grab any soul?

 

Jordan: No, no, no. Because of the Bore and the fact that the bore is best perceived, the bore doesn’t really exist in Shayol Ghul, the Bore exists everywhere, its simply in Shayol Ghul where it can be perceived most easily. By the same token he has greater access to people at Shayol Ghul than he does elsewhere, or did, and uh, that’s, when you know, Rahvin died, Rahvin is balefired out of time, slain out of time, cannot be reached, gone. Be’lal, (names someone else)…,

 

http://p094.ezboard.com/Dragon-Con-Book-Signing-Reports/ftheorylandfrm30.showMessage?topicID=4.topic

[Asgard Thorin]

Cw, to be perfectly clear, was that quote from RJ? And in Book 5, Moiraine said that the most she could burn out would be seconds.

 

And we must remember, balefire is not insurmountable. Rand survived it simply by holding Callandor,(book 3) and cuendillar can only be broken by the Dark One's taint. It absorbs balefire. I think RJ said that quote I was thinking of for a reason. If we agree that Taim is some Forsaken, who then is he?

[Guest durram laddel cham]

thats true and combining it with

 

http://www.wotmania.com/faqtopic.asp?ID=152

 

question 3 from december 2003 to april 2004

 

There are definitely time constraints on the Dark One's power to transmigrate a soul. The soul doesn't have to be secured immediately - that is, the Dark One doesn't have to be ready to snatch the soul at the instant of death - but the longer that passes after the death, the less chance that the Dark One will be able to secure the soul. Someone who has been killed with balefire in actuality died before the apparent time of his or her death, and thus the window of opportunity for the Dark One to secure that soul for transmigration is gone before the Dark One can know that the soul must be secured unless the amount of balefire used is very small. Remember that the more balefire is used, the further back the target's thread is burned out of the pattern.

 

I take it a few seconds is very small

[Guest Dreadlord]

A nice theory, if only every poster put so much thought & evidence into it.

 

Now when you said you think that Demandred assumed Wieramons identity, I doubt that as when book 10 was released I'm pretty sure RJ confirmed that we havent seen Demandred use an alter ego before book 10. So unless Demandred started masquerading as Wieramon after book 9 I doubt that Demandred has shown his face any more than is plain to the eye. I am dissappointed that people keep thinking Taim is one of the Forsaken. He could be just an aspiring Darkfriend who can channel, has been channeling for a while giving him more years than meets the eye, which in turn gives him chance to learn all the pre-mentioned tricks of the power, all the mannerisms of the Forsaken, and build enough of an ego that he even uses terms such as "so-called Aeil." Maybe he fancies himself as one of the Chosen, but I dont think he is myself and would be dissapointed if he turned out to be one of them in disguise.

 

And as for another crazy idea...if Taim is Forsaken in disguise, why do people only think it could be Demandred or Moridin? The female Forsaken could disguise as Taim just as easily-it is possible to alter their voice with the power. Mesaana being the prime example

[Guest Dreadlord]

OK SCRAP THE LAST BIT OF THAT POST. All anyone needs to say to blast that bit apart is Saidin. But the rest still stands

[Majsju]

And as for another crazy idea...if Taim is Forsaken in disguise, why do people only think it could be Demandred or Moridin? The female Forsaken could disguise as Taim just as easily-it is possible to alter their voice with the power. Mesaana being the prime example

 

Well, the only living male forsaken are Moridin, Demandred and Halima. RJ has confirmed Taim is not Demmy, Halima has a pretty gosh darn good alibi being busy with Salidar. And Moridin has a few things going against him, like TO addiction, being busy Nae'blising and stuff.

 

So, Taim is Taim. Quite possibly given the forsaken mark so he can order shadowspawn around.

[Guest Dreadlord]

QUOTE

So, Taim is Taim. Quite possibly given the forsaken mark so he can order shadowspawn around

UNQUOTE

 

OK something has been annoying me for a while now so I am going to clear it up.

 

The words Forsaken and Chosen ORIGINALLY meant the same thing-the 13 most powerful people who went over to the Shadow in whichever war it was. But as the story progresses the titles "Forsaken" and "Chosen" seem to pull away from each other. What I mean is, the word Forsaken refers solely to those 13 listed in the back of the first books-the original 13. The word "Chosen" refers to those granted immortality by the Great Lord. So its possible to have a new Chosen, if the Dark One chose to promote them, but nobody else could be granted the title Forsaken anymore since that war ended 3000 or more years ago. Do you see what I mean? Call me picky for going over that if you want but its been annoying me for ages! Im sure there is an anonymous point of view that states that over 40 people have been granted access to the True Power, which means there were 40 or more Chosen, but not 40 or more Forsaken.

[Guest cw]

Cw, to be perfectly clear, was that quote from RJ? And in Book 5, Moiraine said that the most she could burn out would be seconds.

 

And we must remember, balefire is not insurmountable. Rand survived it simply by holding Callandor,(book 3) and cuendillar can only be broken by the Dark One's taint. It absorbs balefire. I think RJ said that quote I was thinking of for a reason. If we agree that Taim is some Forsaken, who then is he?

 

If you are referring to the "dead, dead, dead" quote, yes it is from Jordan.  As I stated right above it, he posted it in his blog.  If you are referring to the one about Demandred's lack of alter ego, the quote contains information concerning when/where it was asked and answered by Jordan.

 

Dreadlord:  Actually, during the War of Power, all Channellers who went over to the Dark One were Forsaken.  Those referred to as "The Forsaken", in the Third Age refers only to 13 that were present in Shayol Ghul at the time the Bore was sealed.  The remaining Forsaken died out because of the results of the Taint.

[Guest Dreadlord]

No, Forsaken was only those 13. Look in the description Forsaken in the back of the books. "Name given to the 13 most powerful channellers who went over to the Shadow during the war of Power." Yes everyone who went over to the dark was forsaken in the meaning of the word, but only 13 were Forsaken in the title

[Guest cw]

Week 12 Question: In Winters Heart, you mention that back in the Age of Legends, there were several other Forsaken that the Dark One had killed because he suspected they would betray him. What's their story? Were those people ever as high ranking as the 13 survivors, or where they more like high-ranking Dreadlords then actual Forsaken?

 

Robert Jordan Answers: First off, Dreadlords was the name given to men and women who could channel and sided with the Shadow in the Trolloc Wars. Yes, the women were called Dreadlords, too. They might have liked to call themselves "the Chosen," like the Forsaken, but feared to. The real Forsaken might not have appreciated it when they returned, as prophecies of the Shadow foretold would happen. Some of the Dreadlords had authority and responsibility equivalent to that of the Forsaken in the War of the Shadow, however. They ran the Shadow's side of the Trolloc Wars, though without the inherent ability to command the Myrddraal that the Forsaken possess, meaning they had to negotiate with them. Overall command at the beginning was in another's hands.

 

Forsaken was the name given to Aes Sedai who went over to the Shadow in the War of the Shadow at the end of the Age of Legends, though of course, they called themselves the Chosen, and despite the tales of the "current"Age, there were many more than a few of them. Since they occupied all sorts of levels, you might say that many were equivalent to some of the lesser Dreadlords, but it would be incorrect to call them so. At the time, they were all Forsaken—or Chosen—from the greatest to the least.

 

Some of those Forsaken the Dark One killed were every bit as high-ranking as the thirteen who were remembered, and who you might say constituted a large part of the Dark One's General Staff at the time of the sealing. With the Forsaken, where treachery and backstabbing were an acceptable way of getting ahead, the turnover in the upper ranks was fairly high, though Ishamael, Demandred, Lanfear, Graendal, Semirhage, and later Sammael, were always at the top end of the pyramid. They were very skilled at personal survival, politically and physically.

 

In large part the thirteen were remembered because they were trapped at Shayol Ghul, and so their names became part of that story, though it turned out that details of them, stories of them, survived wide-spread knowledge of the tale of the actual sealing itself. Just that they had been sealed away. Other Forsaken were left behind, so to speak, free but in a world that was rapidly sliding down the tube. The men eventually went mad and died from the same taint that killed off the other male Aes Sedai. They had no access to the Dark One's protective filters. The women died, too, though from age or in battle or from natural disasters created by insane male AesSedai or from diseases that could no longer be controlled because civilization itself had been destroyed and access to those who were skilled in Healing was all but gone. And soon after their deaths, their names were forgotten, except for what might possibly be discovered in some ancient manuscript fragment that survived the Breaking. A bleak story of people who deserved no better, and not worth telling in any detail.

Question of the Week (Week 12):  http://www.wotmania.com/faqtopic.asp?ID=152

[aevogt]

The difference in the two names is who's using it

 

If you're:

 

Light = They're the Forsaken (They have Forsaken the Light)

 

Dark = They're the Chosen (They were Chosen to rule the world forever)

[Asgard Thorin]

Okay, cw, the Weiramon idea is pretty much shot down. But somewhere Robert Jordan, and I think it was the Torsite's QotW, backtracked on balefire being absolute. I don't know if that was before or after the 2005 quote you cited. Backtracked might be the wrong word, but he seemed to say that small amounts of balefire were not beyond the Dark One's ability. And now that I think of it, why at the beginning of book 6 was Bel'al not listed with Ravhin and Asmodean? Looking at what he said (D. One) at that point, if he meant he could not save anyone from balefire Bel'al should have been listed. If he meant anyone in this case that would explain the absence. I will have to find that quote.

 

Oh, and Majsju(pronounced Mitch, right?) Taim, can't be just Taim. He was in on the Forsaken byword, and he called the Aiel "so-called". A very small hint, but a very big one.

 

I don't think Taim can be Moridin either. Moridin touched Rand physically, book 7, and Taim has tried a number of times to physically touch Rand. But Sammael, book 7, would not come close to Sevanna while he "illuted" (I just made that up) as Caddar. I might be wrong. Heck, Moridin may be Ishamael with what little of Bel'al that could be salvaged thrown in for stability. (Buuuuuuut, prob'ly not.)

[adamn]

i think something else that might be a little give away from my re read of KoD all of this is from the epilogue where the red ajah goes the black tower.

 

First the name Taim gave himself M'Hael. A name from the old tounge. Now its true anyone could of heard the name M'Hael from an old manuscriptn or something but it also shows bel'al trying to make himself look better than rand. We know he was jealous of him so its only natural that he would give himself such a name, even if it did give him away (we know how egotistical some of the male forsaken are.

 

Another quote from the same place. "The M'hael will be recieving you at the palace" same kind of mentality as the quote above, its just Bel'al making himself powerful, in charge when rand is not etc etc

 

(id also like to mention that a gateway is open to get into the palace, do we know where this palace is? i think for sure its in the black tower but who knows?)

 

A few lines down the Asha'man from murandy says the the M'hael does not associate with the likes of him. this tells me that not only does Taim have favourites, he also finds himself to supieror (spelling) to talk with a low dedicated. Now taim Wouldnt be exspected to act like a king, if he was just a plain DF he wouldnt be given such a place, he would refer to a forsaken. esepecially since he holds extreme power on one of the top recruitment for DF male dreadlords. Thinking about it thats just another reason Bel'al would be placed their, because of the importance of the job, would it be trusted to a unimportant primitive like Taim?

 

and finally " you must remember the old sayinglet the lord of chaos rule. just another back up. this could go two ways i suppose, has he heard his master (say moridin) use it and now put it in his own vocabulary to make himself look cool or does he actually remember the saying?

 

In my opinion Taim is Bel'al, i like the idea and it makes sense. lets be honest we are never easily ridden of a forsaken. we thought at the start of the books that ishy, aggy, bathamel and Bel' al where all gone quick and easy to kill. now we moridin, dashiva, and i think its halima. I dont think weve seen the last of Bel'al

 

 

 

[Asgard Thorin]

I just had an epiphany.

 

When Demandred is talking to the Dark One, they are speaking in the Old Tongue. RJ just translated it for his readership.

Think about the difficulty of translating from the Old Tongue: Asha'man, An'Allien (msp?), et cetera. An' allien(msp?) means One Man, One Man Alone, One Man Who is an Entire People. There are similar translation problems with any phrase from the Old Tongue.

 

Now let me relate that to these sentences: Son Father loved the the. Father the Son the loved. The son loved the father. The first two of those make no sense in Modern English, but in Old English, those three groupings of words could mean exactly the same thing, because Old English was very much an inflected language, meaning that word order was completely irrelevant.

 

English still has some inflection: There, but for the grace of God, go I. There I go but for the grace of God. Still, it is not a patch on the inflection capacity of English during the reign of Alfred the Great.

 

I think the Old Tongue is inflected. How is that significant?

 

When the Dark One says, "YET EVEN I CANNOT SAVE HIM FROM BALEFIRE. EVEN I CANNOT STEP OUTSIDE OF TIME. DONE BY MY ANCIENT ENEMY, THE ONE CALLED DRAGON."

 

I put it to you that what he is saying, without inflection is this: "YET EVEN I CANNOT SAVE HIM FROM BALEFIRE DONE BY MY ANCIENT ENEMY, THE ONE CALLED DRAGON." Then would come: "EVEN I CANNOT STEP OUTSIDE OF TIME."

 

Robert Jordan must have know something of languages; communication is important to every aspect of life reported in his bio. Writing, critiqueing(msp?), studying and above all soldiering. He must have known about inflection.

 

Even if I am wrong, this is a very fun friendly argument.

[Majsju]

Oh, and Majsju(pronounced Mitch, right?) Taim, can't be just Taim. He was in on the Forsaken byword, and he called the Aiel "so-called". A very small hint, but a very big one.

 

Not even close regarding the pronounciation. Closest english word would be My, I think.

Taim being raised to the level of forsaken would get him in n the forsaken byword. As for the comment about Aiel, extremely few people knew anything about Aiel at tis time. Even verin admitted she knew very little, and Taim not being an Aes sedai of the Brown ajah...Go figure. What information he had he had from the stories. And if he expects Aiel to be three meters tall, draping themselves in the skins of dead enemies, drinking blood and whatever siilliness storytellers loves to flesh out their stories with, the quite normal people he sees in Caemlyn would be "so-called".

 

Heck, Moridin may be Ishamael with what little of Bel'al that could be salvaged thrown in for stability. (Buuuuuuut, prob'ly not.)

 

Uhm...Moridin IS Ishamael recycled.

 

And now that I think of it, why at the beginning of book 6 was Bel'al not listed with Ravhin and Asmodean? Looking at what he said (D. One) at that point, if he meant he could not save anyone from balefire Bel'al should have been listed. If he meant anyone in this case that would explain the absence. I will have to find that quote.

 

Be'lal died in TDR, Asmo and Rahvin in TFOH. The easiest explanation is that Demandred, or another forsaken had visited SG at some point between these two events, and gotten the heads up. I suppose the DO dislikes repeating himself as much as I do.

 

First the name Taim gave himself M'Hael. A name from the old tounge. Now its true anyone could of heard the name M'Hael from an old manuscriptn or something but it also shows bel'al trying to make himself look better than rand. We know he was jealous of him so its only natural that he would give himself such a name, even if it did give him away (we know how egotistical some of the male forsaken are.

 

All nobles in randland are supposed to learn the OT, which means there are teachers available. Taim strikes me as the kind of person who would jump at any opportunity to look better than he is.

As for the jealousy, that fits much better with Demandred, whose very reason to betray the Light was jealousy of LTT. And Taim=Demandred has been thoroughly shot down by RJ.

 

Another quote from the same place. "The M'hael will be recieving you at the palace" same kind of mentality as the quote above, its just Bel'al making himself powerful, in charge when rand is not etc etc

 

(id also like to mention that a gateway is open to get into the palace, do we know where this palace is? i think for sure its in the black tower but who knows?)

 

You don't think any of the Asha'man not affiliated with Taim would have noticed a suspicios lack of said palace? Or that tarna and her sisters would have noticed stepping out someplace that was not in Andor?

 

A few lines down the Asha'man from murandy says the the M'hael does not associate with the likes of him. this tells me that not only does Taim have favourites, he also finds himself to supieror (spelling) to talk with a low dedicated. Now taim Wouldnt be exspected to act like a king, if he was just a plain DF he wouldnt be given such a place, he would refer to a forsaken. esepecially since he holds extreme power on one of the top recruitment for DF male dreadlords. Thinking about it thats just another reason Bel'al would be placed their, because of the importance of the job, would it be trusted to a unimportant primitive like Taim?

 

You are talking about the man who suggested to rands face that they should be allied as equals. the man who from the beginning sneered at training farmboys etc. The man put in charge of the BT by the Dragon Reborn. The man who for some time called himself, and quite possibly believed he were the Dragon Reborn. Humble is not a word that comes to mind when speaking of Taim.

Frankly, I strongly suspect it was his love of greatness that made him join the shadow in the first place.

 

and finally " you must remember the old sayinglet the lord of chaos rule. just another back up. this could go two ways i suppose, has he heard his master (say moridin) use it and now put it in his own vocabulary to make himself look cool or does he actually remember the saying?

 

Or perhaps it is an actual saying in some parts of randland...

 

In my opinion Taim is Bel'al, i like the idea and it makes sense. lets be honest we are never easily ridden of a forsaken. we thought at the start of the books that ishy, aggy, bathamel and Bel' al where all gone quick and easy to kill. now we moridin, dashiva, and i think its halima. I dont think weve seen the last of Bel'al

 

We also know Rahvin, Asmo and Sammael are gone for good. And Be'lal, if you go back and read the RJ quote in my last post.

[adamn]

You don't think any of the Asha'man not affiliated with Taim would have noticed a suspicios lack of said palace? Or that tarna and her sisters would have noticed stepping out someplace that was not in Andor?

 

yeah lol good point.... teach me to post without my morning dose of caffiene.

 

i re read the page you quoted from to try and find a way round it but its their in solid evidence. so i guess that shoots down the Bel'al theory. however this was a quote that intrested me.

 

WinespringBrother: How old is Taim and has he slowed?

 

Jordan: Taim has slowed, but one thing I am not going to reveal it in the books, so I’ll tell you, men slow later than women do. And yes, he has slowed, and he is in his late twenties, yes his late twenties.

 

now im sure someone will put me strait on this if i get it wrong but hasnt taim been channeling for 15 years? surely even at 29 it would make him say 14. and men dont even start showing sighns of channeling at that age.

 

i am really starting to get intrested in taim. think i might go grab the books...again.

[Guest cw]

Taim claimed to have been channelling for 15 to 20 years.  Quite obviously, as he is only in his late twenties as stated multiple times by Jordan, Taim was lying.  Not surprising considering he would want to make himself seem a superman and what better way than to make people think he has managed to hold of the Taint far longer than anyone could have.

[Guest Dreadlord]

QUOTE

WinespringBrother: How old is Taim and has he slowed?

 

Jordan: Taim has slowed, but one thing I am not going to reveal it in the books, so I’ll tell you, men slow later than women do. And yes, he has slowed, and he is in his late twenties, yes his late twenties.

UNQUOTE

 

To me, that is definite confirmation from the Creator himself that Taim is NOT a Forsaken in disguise.

[Majsju]

If I remember correctly, Taim never claims to have been channeling for 15 years. It is Rand who think he has, because Rand misjudges Taims age.

 

Btw, Dreadlord, you write quotes like this: [ quote ] [ /quote ], without the blanks.

[Davian93]

One, Taim never claims to be channeling for 15 years, that is Rand's judgement on appearance and it is later clarified by an RJ interview saying that he looked older because of the rough traveling he had been doing while on the run from Bashere.  I believe this clarification was made at Dragoncon a couple of years ago.

 

On another note:

 

I still advocate the Bel'al equals Taim theory, based on the concept that Taim was actually "freed" by the Black Ajah, taken to Shayol Ghul and either had his body shared with Bel'al, much the same way Luc/Isam are shared to become Slayer, or that Bel'al was given Taim's body outright.

 

What?!? 

 

Taim is Taim and nothing else.  He is a dreadlord and even possibly a new Chosen but he is not a chosen reborn.